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the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only

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Aindreas Gallagher
the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 3:00:06 pm

totally missed that -

http://www.postmagazine.com/Press-Center/Daily-News/2015/Adobe-s-TV-and-vid...

Adobe Anywhere, a workflow platform for enterprise teams to collaborate, adds the ability to be deployed as either a multi-location streaming solution or a single-location collaboration-only version.

that's adobe sort of slipping the knife between avid's ribs there. Avid's native project collaboration and bin sharing was always it's one unbeatable trump card. you'd presume software only anywhere is going to be a lot lot lot cheaper than the full streaming solution.

When the alpha dogs did the pre-nab Q&A last year, the film editor dude said he figured once adobe put out a software only implementation of Anywhere without the massive streaming price barrier - that at that point avid were basically dead in the water.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 3:30:57 pm

I've been waiting for this to happen but I don't know if it's really a knife between Avid's ribs unless you can seamlessly have multiple people working (and saving their work) inside the same Premiere Pro project at the same time. The ability to have everyone in the same project concurrently is really what separates Avid from every other NLE when it comes to multi-user environments. Also, being able to modify Avid projects via the Finder is huge for multi-user environments too.

For example, let's say you're working on a TV show where each episode has its own project. Pretty common setup, right? Now, an updated GFX package comes in and has to be added to each project. If you are using X or PPro or Legacy you have to open each project individually and bring in the new GFX. In Avid you just have to import the GFX package into one project (typically the assistant editor's project) and then you go to the Finder and copy/paste the updated bin from that one project into all the other projects. Quick, simple, and it can even be done if someone is working in the project.


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Oliver Peters
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 3:39:17 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "but I don't know if it's really a knife between Avid's ribs unless you can seamlessly have multiple people working (and saving their work) inside the same Premiere Pro project at the same time."

The way Anywhere has worked is that different users can work on multiple versions of the project file (which lives on the Anywhere server), by using a check out/check in process. So discrepancies between the two versions have to be reconciled in an accept/reject dialogue. I'm not totally sure how this new implementation works differently.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09:21 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The way Anywhere has worked is that different users can work on multiple versions of the project file (which lives on the Anywhere server), by using a check out/check in process. So discrepancies between the two versions have to be reconciled in an accept/reject dialogue. I'm not totally sure how this new implementation works differently."

I wouldn't use 'check-in/out' terminology nor is your description entirely accurate to my ears. Multiple people can be working without concern for checking in/out. For example, person A pushes up a bin of new media into the production. Later on, person B wants to save the latest edits to his/her timeline. Before that can happen, He/she will be prompted to get the latest changes (i.e the new bin of media) and then the timeline changes itself will be pushed up.

HTH,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 6:39:57 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " unless you can seamlessly have multiple people working (and saving their work) inside the same Premiere Pro project at the same time. The ability to have everyone in the same project concurrently is really what separates Avid from every other NLE when it comes to multi-user environments. "

yep. that's anywhere. It's a production and you all sign into the same project/production - the only thing you can't do is simultaneously work on the same timeline. Adobe could have done it - they engineered the hell out of it - but they thought that would get too barmy. But you, me, Billy Tom and the two assistant editors can all be in the same project/production working away and sharing assets, we all see the updated GFX when they're imported we can all source the same stuff, I can pull from your timeline in a read only state, you can source in real time from my timeline in a read only state - it's extremely powerful really - unless I got all of the above wrong, it's been a while since I read up on it - but bar exposing bins in the finder ala avid, it's every bit a match for avid - supersedes it handily if you throw in the proprietary instant streaming of assets anywhere for remote editing. With the hardware setup Billy and Tom can check into the production from half a continent away and start editing with live encoded streams. The demos of that are utterly bonkers..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael Phillips
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 9:01:04 pm

Thus Avid's strategy to support Adobe and Apple on ISIS... if nothing else, you can still sell storage into these workgroup environments. ISIS is a solid shared storage solution, albeit more expensive than similar offerings. For those of you in non-Avid Media Composer (as a client) environments, would you consider ISIS as a storage solution for multiple editors? If not, what would be your choice?

Michael


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Andrew Kimery
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 9:20:08 pm

It might be the lack of nuance available on the Internet, but to me it sounds like Oliver and Aindreas are saying two different things. Oliver's check in/check out makes it sound like people work in different versions of the project and then the differences in those versions have to be reconciled at some point back into a single project file. Aindreas makes it almost sound like a spread sheet in Google Docs where anyone can make any modification at any time except for in a cell that's currently 'occupied' by someone else. In Adobe Anywhere are the project files always 'saving' (kinda like FCP X)? What happens if two people try and type in the comment field of the same clip at the same time?

Avid gets around this by doing the saving at the bin level as opposed to the project level. Anyone can be in a project but the first person to open a bin is the one that gets read/write access to that bin. Everyone else just gets read access and if they make changes they are prompted to do a Save As to create a new bin (or chose not to and lose the changes they made).


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 10:30:57 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Sep 19, 2015 at 10:36:29 pm

so I googled for fun -

In the below video the two demonstrators seem to be checking in and out of the same timeline - observe:

"now notice that we've been working on the same timeline and the same assets"

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-anywhere/introducing-adobe-anywhere-for-vid...

that's two people, to my understanding limited by light speed for real time editing response. Adobe anywhere can't operate past a continental land mass for slap stop real time response. At a hardware level it's operating on a light speed limit. But they're both in a single production bashing away at a timeline though.

edit - none of this applies in the new local software only version of course. But adobe pulled some serious god level stuff with the hardware incarnation. the project sharing matches avid as far as I understand it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 10:38:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that's two people, to my understanding limited by light speed for real time editing response. Adobe anywhere can't operate past a continental land mass for slap stop real time response. At a hardware level it's operating on a light speed limit. But they're both in a single production bashing away at a timeline though."

Thanks for the link, Aindreas. So if you were already working on timeline XYZ and I tried to open it on my machine would I get a message saying that it's already in use or something like that? I guess I'm trying to figure out how it handles multiple users trying to modify the same timeline, media (adding markers, comments, etc.), or even folder at the same time.


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Oliver Peters
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:14:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "that's two people, to my understanding limited by light speed for real time editing response. Adobe anywhere can't operate past a continental land mass for slap stop real time response. At a hardware level it's operating on a light speed limit. But they're both in a single production bashing away at a timeline though."

There is some nuance lost in this demo. Based on the presentation I got a year ago, there is an exchange process. The project lives on the server and each connected system is working like a remote control. So the local instance of Premiere is basically just a web front end. When I said check-out/check-in, I think that got misunderstood based on old methods.

Multiple users can open the same project and timeline, which are virtual copies created by the server. You'll note his "share" command. What's not shown is that other users have some control over accepting those updates before they appear on the other local system.

What I'm not sure of is how the software-based system works. In the full Anywhere systems, three servers are used and it's all standard computing hardware. Nothing made by Adobe, as they don't make hardware. The Mercury Streaming Engine that he refers to is one of those servers. Whenever media is played, a low-res proxy is streamed to the local system(s). Whenever you pause on a still, that image is updated to full-res. Any multi-image composites are "built" on the server using GPU power, so that a single-stream composite can be fed to the local system(s).

No projects reside on the local system. You open the project from the server and when you close it and log off, nothing stays on the local system.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:22:14 pm

PS: Thanks for the clarification (maybe lower down in this thread). I just read that. Yes, it was the conflict resolution that I was thinking about when I said someone has to accept the changes. However, given that the demo that Aindreas linked to implied both Michael and Jason working on the same timeline, I would imagine that would come into play.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 9:36:47 pm

this is a reply to Michael Phillips -

since every other shared storage company offers a full 10G solution (let's take Facilis as one of many companies that offer a full 10G solution) - why would I ever consider AVID as a shared storage solution ? Certainly the AVID ISIS 1000 is attractive for a small Media Composer workgroup - but isn't the Facilis 8D for less money ?
Does Facilis have terrible support ? Does Facilis know what they are doing, or are they a bunch of idiots ? I am only using them as an example for this reply, but if you are using Adobe CC (or Davinci Resolve, etc.) aren't ALL the other shared storage solutions excellent solutions ? Are you aware of even one that is a terrible solution, that is "blown away" by AVID ISIS 5500 ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Michael Phillips
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 9:48:53 pm

That is why I ask the question. My work with production is one layer up from the shared storage solution being used. I only make the point that Avid's qualification of PPro and FCPx is about selling shared storage and just seeing what the choices were out there in non Media Composer environments.

Michael


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Andrew Kimery
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 10:30:58 pm

[Michael Phillips] "I only make the point that Avid's qualification of PPro and FCPx is about selling shared storage and just seeing what the choices were out there in non Media Composer environments. "

I agree it's about selling shared storage, but I think it's focused on selling shared storage to a subset of users (Avid shops that also have PPro, X, etc.,.). I see it as Avid trying to lower barriers so that people can easily run other NLEs along side Avid as opposed to customers being in an 'either stay with Avid/ ISIS or we switch to XYZ NLE on ABC storage' and possibly choosing to ditch Avid/ISIS for other vendors.

To Bob's point, and I'm not a shared storage guru by any stretch, there isn't a compelling reason to go with Avid storage if you aren't running Avid software.


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Tim Wilson
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 20, 2015 at 12:52:39 am

1) [Andrew Kimery] "I agree it's about selling shared storage"


2) [Andrew Kimery] "as opposed to customers being in an 'either stay with Avid/ ISIS or we switch to XYZ NLE on ABC storage' and possibly choosing to ditch Avid/ISIS for other vendors."

I see those as two different things...the third of which I think is the key.

Avid has never had any illusions about selling Unity to non-Avid customers. They don't even have any illusions about selling Unity to every Avid customer. Hence the (terrible, terrible) move to buy (the terrible, terrible) Medea. It was never going to have "Unity" features, but would offer cheap, Avid-owned storage, a la cheap, Avid-owned M-Audio speakers.

(Side note: I have no idea what kind of due diligence Avid performed before that terrible, terrible deal, but it clearly did not involve reading Creative COW. There's no way they'd have looked at the COW and closed that deal.)

Avid has also never been under the illusion that their customers only use Avid stuff. After Effects had towered over the rest (don't forget: Automatic Duck was created as MC-AE interchange; the rest came later), but by the middle of the last decade, a meaningful number of Avid customers had added FCP to the mix.

(Hence also my observation that the defection from MC to FCP is greatly exaggerated, missing out on the truth that is so, so, so true today: there is RARELY only one major toolset in a shop.)

This is why Avid supported FCP on Unity 10 years ago, After Effects, Premiere (my guess: the #1 after AE, yes?), and so many others.

So, in fairness to the (not entirely unfair) shit Avid gets given for cluelessness, their Unity/ISIS approach EXACTLY followed their customers experience of NEEDING multiple tools to work on their shared storage.

Forestalling any either-or eventuality for current Avid customers is the goal of course...but really, the primary customers for ANY Avid products are CURRENT Avid customers. MC software is expanding the circle a bit, to be sure...but I really can't imagine anyone at Avid imagining they'll sell Avid storage to non-Avid customers.

This, btw, is why Avid feels strongly, and I believe correctly, that when it comes to understanding Avid's business model, it doesn't matter how much money Avid makes from hardware. Without Media Composer, there's ZERO value proposition for ANY Avid hardware. No MC, then barring Pro Tools, no need for anything else from Avid either.


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Michael Phillips
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 20, 2015 at 2:24:12 pm

I think we agree on all those points as well as the living through the Medea storage literally lighting on fire! Avid has always supported other application because existing Avid customers are expanding their toolset as you mention. While program editorial may be Media Composer, the marketing, PR, streaming side of the company may be using Adobe or Apple. And as you say, "nothing new" as that has been happening for the last decade.

I brought up in another thread the hypothetical discussion of which company could best bear the brunt of EOL'ing their NLE? I had Apple at the top and Avid at the bottom, on which we also agree (at least on the Avid side). The follow up question, and again only as a fun discussion over beer kind of way, If PPro and FCPx (or anyone else) became as adopted in Media Composer environments and was a full client to not only storage, but Media Central and the soon to be Marketplace, how much attention do you think Media Composer would get? It's the usual challenge of resources, priorities and ROI. I've mentioned in other threads that a "Marketplace" strategy is based on number of seats attached to that Marketplace. Adobe alone added 680K seats in the last quarter. And when it comes to that type of revenue strategy, it does not matter what the actual seat is doing, other than it is part of the ecosystem.


Michael


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Herb Sevush
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 20, 2015 at 8:30:33 pm

[Tim Wilson] " Hence the (terrible, terrible) move to buy (the terrible, terrible) Medea."

When I bought my first FCP system I bought a Medea Raid. Later I added an X-Raid. I thought the Medea the better of the two, so I'm curious as to why you label it the "terrible, terrible Medea" ?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Dennis Radeke
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:10:43 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Adobe could have done it - they engineered the hell out of it - but they thought that would get too barmy."

We actually had that working but as you said, it would get too barmy. Also, there are very few use cases where we see this is in regular practice (all protestations to the contrary)...

Dennis


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Dennis Radeke
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:05:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " I've been waiting for this to happen but I don't know if it's really a knife between Avid's ribs unless you can seamlessly have multiple people working (and saving their work) inside the same Premiere Pro project at the same time."

You can have multiple people working on the same "Production" (Adobe name for a multi-user Anywhere project). Someone could be ingesting new media into bins while someone else is cutting on a sequence. Each user can push and get the latest changes by clicking a single button. There is also conflict resolution in the unlikely event that two people are working on the same sequence at teh same time - in short, you will not wreck a sequence.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Andrew Kimery
Re: the other shoe drops - Adobe Anywhere goes software only
on Sep 19, 2015 at 11:38:32 pm

Thanks for chiming in, Dennis. I don't suppose there is an upcoming Adobe event in Los Angeles where this is being demonstrated? I certainly love to get a longer look at it.


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