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I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features

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Oliver Peters
I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 4:37:40 pm

I know there are plenty of things in FCPX that would be nice to have in Premiere Pro. However, after editing some extended project in Premiere Pro, I'd love to see these things added to FCPX to enhance it.

1. Better UI responsiveness
2. More built-in color correction tools
3. Customizable interface with the ability to save layouts
4. Customizable UI colors and control of UI brightness
5. TC overlays
6. The ability to flatten multicam clips
7. Control of preset locations for "scratch disks"
8. Project consolidation with transcode and trim functions
9. "Save as" for Libraries (PPro projects)
10. Tabbed sequences
11. The ability to stack or float several timeline windows
12. The ability to edit from one sequences as a source into another sequence without compounds
13. Integration with Motion and Logic Pro X, like between PPro/AE/Audition
14. More direct access to diverse native camera formats
15. A "render and replace" function with re-edit abilities
16. Better mixing capabilities
17. Some type of master audio bus with the ability to add compression and limiting
18. Loudness compliance tools
19. More text entry columns in the browser, besides just Notes
20. Better control of split audio edits with transitions

Just for starters...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 4:45:04 pm

I hope you've sent that list via the feedback form!


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 5:22:33 pm

I have.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 6:03:59 pm

So it's not just me, the UI responsiveness in PPro is much better for you as well?


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Michael Hancock
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 6:15:55 pm

[Steve Connor] "So it's not just me, the UI responsiveness in PPro is much better for you as well?"

PPro is WAY more responsive than FCPX for me, using the same machine and same footage for comparison. Selecting clips, moving them around, waveform drawing, playing at double and triple speed, and basic editing commands all seem to have small delay in FCPX, whereas in Premiere it's immediate (except playing in reverse - terrible lag in Premiere).

I just started using FCPX with 10.2.1, which is supposed to have improved the responsiveness a lot, right? I can't imagine what it was like prior to that. I find myself waiting for the program to catch up quite often.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 7:11:39 pm

I'm finding the same thing, even on the newest machines. Simple things, like clicking on a different effects category in the filter palette. That should be instant and it's not in FCPX.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 8, 2015 at 9:27:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I'm finding the same thing, even on the newest machines. Simple things, like clicking on a different effects category in the filter palette. That should be instant and it's not in FCPX."

First, nice list Oliver.

Second, yes the UI responsiveness is disappointing. It lags on simple things, as you've identified. I also hate that I STILL have to zoom in or out to get the damn audio waveforms to redraw and display. For those that will claim it's a hardware issue, I'm on the fastest NMP they have... fully loaded. I'm also on a screaming TB2 disk array that delivers almost a gig both ways...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Bill Davis
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 7:29:23 pm

I'm not sure it's fair to do a "responsiveness" assessment outside the context of the hardware involved.
My older big expensive desktop system is an arthritic turtle compared to my current generation laptop. And I suspect that Intels Skylake rev will change the editing fluidity dynamic yet again. (Tho honestly, I can't imagine things getting any smoother in my work today)
You want silky smoothe UI performance? The latest off the shelf hardware is waiting that can absolutely give you that.
So the question you are really testing is "what software runs smoother on my older hardware?"

Which is fair, but a question that only really matters while you HAVE older hardware - and vanishes when you no longer do.

I'm sure some will quibble about having to work directly with 4, 6, or 8k originals and bogging down, but that's why programs have proxy workflow options. And IME, I often forget whether I'm in Original or Proxy mode since modern Proxies can look so amazingly, astonishingly good.

Just another opinion.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 7:41:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not sure it's fair to do a "responsiveness" assessment outside the context of the hardware involved. "

Yes it is as most people aren't using "the newest machines"

[Bill Davis] "You want silky smoothe UI performance? The latest off the shelf hardware is waiting that can absolutely give you that. "

I believe Oliver is talking about performance on the newest machines as well

[Bill Davis] "So the question you are really testing is "what software runs smoother on my older hardware?"
"


No we're not.


[Bill Davis] "Which is fair, but a question that only really matters while you HAVE older hardware - and vanishes when you no longer do."

I believe it doesn't vanish when you do, I'm sure it improves but there is still a difference and as you are so fond of pointing out Bill we are people who actually USE both


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Michael Hancock
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 8:59:39 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not sure it's fair to do a "responsiveness" assessment outside the context of the hardware involved."

My experience is on a 5k iMac that was purchased 2 months ago. Processor upgraded to the 4GHz i7, 32GB RAM, upgraded 4GB graphics card, 1TB Fusion drive. So everything maxed out except the system drive (could have been upgraded to an SSD). The footage is ProRes 422 or 444 from the Amira, both HD and 3.2K. Storage is a PROMISE Pegasus2 R6 12TB Thunderbolt 2, about 40% full. So in my case, the hardware is as new as you can buy from Apple with storage that far exceeds what is necessary to playback my edit.

[Bill Davis] "Which is fair, but a question that only really matters while you HAVE older hardware - and vanishes when you no longer do."

That hasn't been my experience. I have all new hardware, and on my set up the Premiere UI (CC2015) is noticeably faster than FCPX (10.2.1) with the exact same footage and the exact same edit. I even took a FCPX timeline, exported an XML, took it through XtoCC and imported it into Premiere to ensure I had an accurate and fair comparison. And the Premiere UI was more fluid and responsive than it was in FCPX.

Are you seeing different results? You just got the new 15" Retina, didn't you? Is FCPX more responsive than Premiere on that machine?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Bill Davis
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 11:10:00 pm

Are you seeing different results? You just got the new 15" Retina, didn't you? Is FCPX more responsive than Premiere on that machine?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


I can't do a fair comparison since I don't use Premiere Pro. All I can say with confidence is that for the past 3 months, the only time I've had anything but near instantaneous UI performance was that situation I wrote about elsewhere when I imported 10,000 GoPro Timelapse stills into X and noticed that my Project launch slowed WAY down until I Shared the Timelapse into a master and dumped the stills out of my Library. Even then, the edit performance was fine, just really sluggish library loading until I got the original stills out. I'm helping a guy on another site and he has sluggish Library performance as well. We just discovered he has a 7.5 hour stringout in a single project file. I bet the render files for that in his Package Contents are what's bogging his system down, but we're testing the hypotheses now. Basically, this is just like running NLEs has always been. You've got to learn understand your program's quirks if you want the smoothest experience. And it's why if one person says "my timeline is slow" it's smart to hear from others as to whether theirs is as well. On my laptop my timeline performance is currently wicked fast. Not because I'm a fanboy, David. Exactly the opposite. I'm a fanboy BECAUSE my X system is running that well.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 3:27:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "On my laptop my timeline performance is currently wicked fast. Not because I'm a fanboy, David. Exactly the opposite. I'm a fanboy BECAUSE my X system is running that well."

Except for the fact that you've loved X even when it wasn't running so well. You've loved it since the first day you saw it, you've loved it with or without multicam, without export options, lagging UI or no. You have loved it in each one of it's revisions, even while more fickle admirers were pulling out their hair. It is lovely to see such consistency as yours, Romeo has nothing on you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Roth Weiss
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:19:17 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:23:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "
Except for the fact that you've loved X even when it wasn't running so well. You've loved it since the first day you saw it, you've loved it with or without multicam, without export options, lagging UI or no. You have loved it in each one of it's revisions, even while more fickle admirers were pulling out their hair. It is lovely to see such consistency as yours, Romeo has nothing on you."


And then there's the whole thing about comparing the performance of his beloved Julliet to that of Adobe Premiere, which he has, by his own admission, never used. By his own rules, isn't that THE most egregious violation of the rules of debate here?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 7:12:28 pm

Sigh. I guess there was a time when the "beat up on Bill" game was sometimes amusing. Now it just seems tired and a little sad.

But - on to actual discussion!

I find Premiere to be a little sluggish on two different systems: 4-ish-year-old Mac Pro towers running Mavericks with BMD cards and connected to a Facilis TerraBlock via fiber, and on a new MacPro with AJA T-Tap and local T- Bolt 2 storage. The BMD/TerraBlock system in particular has constant problems with sticky audio or video playback.

FCP X runs fine on both a retina MBPro and on the MacPro tube. Sometimes a slight playback delay when the timeline has lots of compound clips. Never as bad as some here have reported.

Avid runs fine on the BMD/TerraBlock systems, and seems fine on the MBPro and MacPro tube. Doesn't feel as smooth as on an Avid with Nitris or Mojo I/O. I think there's a secret sauce that Avid withheld when they opened it up to 3rd party video cards. (Frankly, none of the newer systems feels as lightning fast as the old ABVB Avids running on OS9 back in the day. But then, very few systems seem to run that fast anymore. Not that I'd want to go back to Meridien boards and shuttle docks...)

I find it puzzling that so many here report terrible X performance on their systems, especially compared to notoriously finicky Avids and Premiere. (I still don't get the Premiere love. I use it, but I surely don't like it.)
X does seem to be prone to specific system issues.

Not sure how to accomplish it, but I'd really like to see if there's anything in common with these problematic installations. Some users just don't have good luck with X, while others (Bill, Jeremy G, Robin K, me...) don't seem to have many issues. What's the common factor?

Mind you, I'm only talking about smooth versus bad or buggy operation here. UI design and philosophy and user preference is a different matter.


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 10:56:20 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "Avid runs fine on the BMD/TerraBlock systems, and seems fine on the MBPro and MacPro tube. Doesn't feel as smooth as on an Avid with Nitris or Mojo I/O. I think there's a secret sauce that Avid withheld when they opened it up to 3rd party video cards. (Frankly, none of the newer systems feels as lightning fast as the old ABVB Avids running on OS9 back in the day. But then, very few systems seem to run that fast anymore. Not that I'd want to go back to Meridien boards and shuttle docks...)"

Avid systems have always been better with their own hardware. That's not because anything was held back, but because they have to work with third parties via an abstraction layer, same as Adobe does with Mercury Transmit. The hooks into the hardware can simply be better and deeper, because that hardware is purpose built to only work with Avid systems.

I definitely agree on ABVB OS9 Avid. I would also say that this includes being better in terms of rock & roll responsiveness to any version of FCP or Premiere Pro, ever. But those were simpler systems that only had to deal with PAL or NTSC and there was no such thing as file-based camera media.

As far as networks, I haven't had good experiences with X across a SAN network. It's been OK, but laggy. Premiere has been better and so has Avid. The roadblock there seems to be the fact that with every action you take in X, there's constant file access to write updates to the drives. This makes for far more network traffic and therefore some lag.

When I've cut with X on a network, I've had better results keeping the library local (though media may be on a network volume). Then when I'm done, move the X library file to the SAN for safe-keeping and access. OTOH, with Premiere, I work at a few shops, where everything is on a SAN and I often move between rooms, starting a job in one room and continuing it in another. The biggest issue they run into is keeping the CC version updated to the same version on all machines and proper permissions in a shared PC/Mac environment. By comparison Avid MC on Isis/Unity is a dream.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:32:23 pm

You're right, Herb. How silly of me to exhibit the type of thinking that focuses on things that are new and interesting about something - rather than Ignoring anything innovative that might be happening in order to validate the opinions I developed back when I was being taught "how editing must be done to be a pro."

I was so dumb to have been interested in stuff like the database and the then new ideas like the magnetic timeline - when all the old dogs had their noses pressed hard into their anger that Apple had the gall to change things.

Oddly, today my silly little NLE continues to help me work faster and smarter and I get to bring new honest enthusiasm to my work every day. Just yesterday, the client had a major change of direction in a video we're building. In the past, I would have been pissed about all the work lost. But with X, it's not. All the hours and hours I've done in the database key wording and sorting are all preserved ready to re-visualize - and so I could just smile and say "no problem."

X editing is "happier editing" for me. So much friction is now gone from the process. It's fun.

You want to call that "fanboy ism" go for it. the thing I'm a fan of just gets better and faster and more exciting.

Which is cool.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 7, 2015 at 1:58:47 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Romeo has nothing on you."

I laughed out loud - thank you...


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David Powell
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:44:08 am

What am I doing wrong? I have a nearly identical setup 24 gigs of ram and Premiere 2015 crashes every 5 minutes. It's horrible. Any time I ff on the source side it crashes using prores proxy! I guess I'll post in the PP forums but UI response and stability has been a nightmare! I agree with all the feature requests though and would add

* Duplicate Frames Detection
*Roll Previous/Next Edit To Playhead


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27:19 pm

[David Powell] "What am I doing wrong? I have a nearly identical setup 24 gigs of ram and Premiere 2015 crashes every 5 minutes. It's horrible."

This is no consolation, of course, but I haven't run across this on any of the machines I routinely work with. However, something to check is the drivers for an external i/o gear. Typically when I install an update, I re-install the AJA or BMD drivers as the last step. Usually these will also have been updated. In the case of BMD, sometimes their driver updates are questionable and a lot of users end up back-revving the drivers (Desktop Video package). These issues seem to affect Avid and Adobe more so than FCPX.

I have noticed that the CC installations seem to be more touchy when it comes to corrupt home directories. I just did a round of updates at a local college's film program. These are their edit bays and I have volunteered time each year to get these up to snuff for the incoming class. I found at least one machine that crashed each time I tried to launch an Adobe application other than Photoshop or Illustrator.

I ended up reformatting the drive and doing a complete clean install. After that, all went well. That machine had been updated via migration for several years in a row and I believe that was the root cause of the problem. So my word of warning, as you look El Capitan in the eye, is to consider a complete, clean re-install of EVERYTHING.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 5, 2015 at 9:37:14 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not sure it's fair to do a "responsiveness" assessment outside the context of the hardware involved.

I certainly hope Apple is paying Bill - if not, then we know for sure the Koolaide is spiked.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los Angeles


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 7, 2015 at 5:32:55 pm

I'm not sure it's fair to jump on Bill for his assessments. These are his valid experiences and they may or may not differ from that of others. I certainly agree that new hardware performs better with X than old hardware. Although In my case, Premiere Pro also performs well, if not even better.

What I tend to find with FCPX is that performance is inconsistent. You can have a library with a few dozen clips and everything is fine. Then you start to work on a job with 1TB of media and 700+ clips and it really gets bogged down. In my experience that still hasn't been fixed and Premiere handles it better, though still not as well as other applications, like Media Composer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 8, 2015 at 1:15:36 am

I don't think apple knew what they were doing with X. I think they invoked a number of aspirational database operations as a parlour game inside an incredibly powerful company and they can't shake it off. FCPX is never going to be real. The update pace is lunacy. all anyone has seen in over two years is a library container and a ludicrous conceited 3D text engine. Everyone is standing around expecting the second coming.

the fact that apple devoted their engineering efforts over a cycle to a 3D text engine means the whole thing is a joke in a sense. The programme is lunacy. There will never be bussing, programmable roles, or any of that - apple are doing anything on their whim in an afternoon. It's a ridiculous piece of software.

they will try to keep legitimacy as far as they can with a piece of software that is built to die over the next three years. They don't view their role as continuously tending a professional's needs. What they try to do is make an initial statement, round it out with multi-cam, and go do other things. Like build cars.

FCPX is their last ever half assed attempt at pro-software. They couldn't update it regularly if they tried. No one anywhere thinks FCPX is real.

http://alex4d.com/images/alex4dNotes/2014/0716_updates/Adobe-Premiere-Pro-U...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 8, 2015 at 3:18:14 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "No one anywhere thinks FCPX is real."

Ridiculous.

Andreas, you're not even trying anymore. Your posts used to be amusing, even as they became increasingly misguided. Now...meh. Low-quality bait. Unless this is just so meta, we poor plebs can't even keep up (in which case, I congratulate you).

Meanwhile, those of us doing real work with X will continue to do so as we occasionally LOL in your general direction, for old times' sake.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 8, 2015 at 10:02:30 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "[Aindreas Gallagher] "No one anywhere thinks FCPX is real."

Ridiculous.
"


Ah, Aindreas! The "Donald Trump" of this little forum! ;-)

I guess I'll tell my clients (where my rate is the same or better rate than Pr) that the product that gives them the videos they love is not real. Plus all those students I am teaching. And the ad agency creatives and strategists I am teaching. And the guys in the CBS sports trucks in NYC. Sorry folks, it's just not real.

Ridiculous is right. One should use the product before making foolish comments.


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Alex Hawkins
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 4:54:45 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I don't think apple knew what they were doing with X. I think they invoked a number of aspirational database operations as a parlour game inside an incredibly powerful company and they can't shake it off. FCPX is never going to be real. The update pace is lunacy. all anyone has seen in over two years is a library container and a ludicrous conceited 3D text engine. Everyone is standing around expecting the second coming.

the fact that apple devoted their engineering efforts over a cycle to a 3D text engine means the whole thing is a joke in a sense. The programme is lunacy. There will never be bussing, programmable roles, or any of that - apple are doing anything on their whim in an afternoon. It's a ridiculous piece of software.

they will try to keep legitimacy as far as they can with a piece of software that is built to die over the next three years. They don't view their role as continuously tending a professional's needs. What they try to do is make an initial statement, round it out with multi-cam, and go do other things. Like build cars.

FCPX is their last ever half assed attempt at pro-software. They couldn't update it regularly if they tried. No one anywhere thinks FCPX is real.
"


I think this is as honest an assessment as I've seen over the past 2 years.

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 5:35:45 am

[Alex Hawkins] "I think this is as honest an assessment as I've seen over the past 2 years."

I think this is as ludicrous an assessment as I've seen over the past 2 years.

There. Fixed that for you.


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Alex Hawkins
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 5:54:22 am
Last Edited By Alex Hawkins on Sep 9, 2015 at 5:56:42 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "I think this is as ludicrous an assessment as I've seen over the past 2 years.

There. Fixed that for you.
"


Hey I saw what you did there...

I'm just waiting for 12.2.2.1. I just know it's gonna kick some heavy ass!!

Alex Hawkins
Canberra, Australia


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Walter Soyka
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:44:03 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "I think this is as ludicrous an assessment as I've seen over the past 2 years. There. Fixed that for you."

Aindreas makes this point: "The update pace is lunacy. all anyone has seen in over two years is a library container and a ludicrous conceited 3D text engine." He compares about two years of Apple feature development with about two years of Adobe feature development, and notes that Adobe ships a lot more in the same amount of time.

"FCPX isn't real" may be a ludicrous assessment in a forum full of people happily using, but surely there was more substance to his post than that.

Has Apple met your expectations with the pace and focus of development? If Apple keeps that same pace over the next two years, will you still be happy?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 9:53:54 am

Walter -

Actually, I don't think there was much actual substance. Lots of amusing AG words (he does have a wonderful way with a phrase!), but not much to say.

I don't think apple knew what they were doing with X. I think they invoked a number of aspirational database operations as a parlour game inside an incredibly powerful company and they can't shake it off. FCPX is never going to be real.

C'mon. Apple didn't know what they were doing? A parlor game? That's not analysis, that's click bait.

...a library container and a ludicrous conceited 3D text engine.

I think we can all agree the current library structure was a much-needed correction. This isn't news, It is, however an important course correction that came directly as a result of user feedback (I'm talking about you, ABC On-Air Promo).

It has been suggested by several here that the 3D text feature no one asked for is likely the base for some wicked 3D capabilities we have yet to see. Let's hope so. I choose to be optimistic.

There will never be bussing, programmable roles, or any of that - apple are doing anything on their whim in an afternoon. It's a ridiculous piece of software.

To quote Peter Noone, "second verse, same as the first." I have no reason to think there won't be audio bussing, more capable roles, and a number of other frequently-asked-for features. Why wouldn't there be? Because it hasn't happened fast enough for Andreas?

software that is built to die over the next three years.

I can't even begin to respond to this bit of unbridled butthurt. I get it - people are mad at Apple. Boo hoo. I've never been able to muster the sheer tidal wave of vitriol directed at, and deserved by, Avid, and direct it at Apple. Not even in the same league.

Look - I get it. FCPX has a lot of feature improvements still left on its plate. And not to deflect, but let's compare to Premiere Pro for a moment. I've finally had to start using PPro for real work after years of being able to ignore it. To say I am unimpressed is an understatement. This is the result of 2+ years of "mad development?" I guess if I were an AE artist who edits, I might be impressed. As an editor who has to work fast and has graphics people to do graphics, I don't see the big deal. I know FCP Legacy can't deal with modern codecs and frame sizes, but at least it was fast. Even Avid has finally started to get its act together, and it was always fast within its specific limitations. PPro just feels fiddly and clunky. Nothing fatal or in and of itself a deal breaker, but extra keystrokes and weird combinations that add up to a lot of wasted time and mental energy over the course of a day or a week on deadline. My experience so far with PPro has been buggy and sluggish. FCP 8? Hardly. I'd like to join the Adobe party, but PPro just doesn't do it for me.

No one anywhere thinks FCPX is real.

Can we just stop with this nonsense? Of course it's real. Plenty of professional editors doing professional work with it, making professional money. There hasn't yet been an editor that I've sat down with and put X through its paces who didn't come away impressed. Hard core Avid people, people who mourn the loss of FCP Legacy. In Hollywood, no less.

If AG and his peeps would like to talk about features or editing philosophy, good, bad or indifferent, that would be great. But this last post, and similar posts before it, add nothing to the discussion. They're not even funny any more.

In answer to your question: no, I am not completely happy with Apple's FCPX development pace of late. But considering how long I waited for various Legacy features, and especially considering how much I (and many others) have suffered at the glacial pace of Avid development and corporate arrogance over the decades, I think I'll give Apple a few more years to make good on their promise. I can work with it fine for now, but I surely do with they'd hurry up with the new goodies. Heck, I'd be happy to pay another $299 to make it happen now. Still a bargain.


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Steve Connor
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 11:02:48 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "This is the result of 2+ years of "mad development?" I guess if I were an AE artist who edits, I might be impressed."

As someone who has been Editing for 25 years and has used Premiere on and off since before it was "Pro" I am actually VERY impressed.

[Jeff Markgraf] "My experience so far with PPro has been buggy and sluggish."

I'm not saying you haven't had problems but mine has been exactly the opposite.

Bear in mind I've been a heavy FCPX user since day 1 so I can claim some objectivity.

We are VERY lucky to have the choice of good NLE's out there at the moment.


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Herb Sevush
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:46:10 pm

[Steve Connor] "We are VERY lucky to have the choice of good NLE's out there at the moment."

Yes, and a point that is often overlooked. We work in a time of editorial overabundance and I need to remember that the next time some snark comes to mind. But don't count on that.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 12:38:36 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "I have no reason to think there won't be audio bussing, more capable roles, and a number of other frequently-asked-for features. Why wouldn't there be? Because it hasn't happened fast enough for Andreas? "

I'm somewhere in between you and Aindreas on this. I agree with you that there's no reason these things couldn't happen, but I'd agree with him that the current development pace is too slow to get you all the things you want anytime soon.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:04:48 pm

Walter,

I think it will come, but I'm also sure it takes a lot of time to get right.
I want a faster development pace too, but I think they ARE working on getting Roles better, and I just think it's one very difficult problem to get the good solution for.

In my opinion, the whole concept of Roles really beats tracks. It really does, in my opinion.
But more color coding and a mixer based on that, and maybe automatic vertical organisation is needed to make it 'perfect'.
But I'm sure it's a very difficult problem to handle, in the Trackless timeline, and with enough freedom to have some stuff go automatic and other stuff still free to change (thinking about vertical organisation here).
Also User Interface wise, I'm sure if you want to do it RIGHT, it takes a lot of time.

That being said, call me optimistic, but when that's done and if Apple succeeds in getting that right, I don't know how anyone would want to work with tracks anymore instead of Roles (with the extra features people want). I'm not sure how anyone could defend tracks instead of Roles (again, IF Apple gets those extra features right, because at this point Roles is very interesting but feels a bit incomplete).


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Michael Hancock
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:11:30 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I think it will come, but I'm also sure it takes a lot of time to get right.
I want a faster development pace too, but I think they ARE working on getting Roles better, and I just think it's one very difficult problem to get the good solution for. "


I'm curious, why do you think they're working on it? I'd love to see roles developed further, but they haven't changed at all since the initial release of FCPX, have they? Has there been any communication from Apple or hints that roles are part of their development schedule, and what that development will include?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:13:52 pm
Last Edited By Mathieu Ghekiere on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:18:23 pm

No, Apple hasn't commented on it, and Roles haven't developed further since the initial update.

I'm basing myself on the fact that someone I know that has SOME contact with Apple (I don't know how much exactly, but I know for sure there is some contacts), that Apple is 'very aware' about Audio being the next big thing they need to work on in FCPX. It doesn't mean it WILL be in the next feature update, but if Apple makes Audio a big part of a next feature update, I'm pretty sure Roles will be a big part of it (how could it not? Their whole structure of the timeline is based on it).


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Michael Hancock
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:16:53 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I'm basing myself on the fact that someone I know that has SOME contact with Apple (I don't know how much exactly, but I know for sure there is some contacts), that Apple is 'very aware' about Audio being the next big thing they need to work on in FCPX.
I'm GUESSING Roles will be a part of it."


Thanks - hopefully you're right and they'll do a good job with it, and sooner rather than later.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Walter Soyka
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:29:29 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I think it will come, but I'm also sure it takes a lot of time to get right. I want a faster development pace too, but I think they ARE working on getting Roles better, and I just think it's one very difficult problem to get the good solution for. "

I don't meant to be antagonistic, and I would bet that Apple will further develop roles, too.

But looking at products like Motion, which is now 11 years old and still running, or Aperture which was 10 when EOLed, Apple seems to have a tendency to produce something awesome, revolutionary and promising in version 1, develop it to a certain point in a flurry of activity over a few years... and then not take it significantly further.

Apple has earned a bit of reputation here, which is why the point of current slow development carries the weight it does outside of "the faithful." This line of conversation doesn't pause until Apple makes like a real artist and ships, and it doesn't end until they do it consistently for a while.


[Mathieu Ghekiere] "In my opinion, the whole concept of Roles really beats tracks. It really does, in my opinion."

I mostly agree, except I'd say that roles and tracks are not mutually exclusive. We've discussed track groups, overlapping clips, zones, etc. as options to get the best of both worlds.

See historical threads like these:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/41526
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/18634

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:43:03 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I mostly agree, except I'd say that roles and tracks are not mutually exclusive. We've discussed track groups, overlapping clips, zones, etc. as options to get the best of both worlds."

I agree! Once you start with a Role-based Mixer, I think you would end up in a 'track-like' user interface (maybe Apple surprises us with something completely new?), but you don't have any of the disadvantages of tracks (patching, clip collissions, ...)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:23:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] "But looking at products like Motion, which is now 11 years old and still running, or Aperture which was 10 when EOLed, Apple seems to have a tendency to produce something awesome, revolutionary and promising in version 1, develop it to a certain point in a flurry of activity over a few years... and then not take it significantly further.

Apple has earned a bit of reputation here, which is why the point of current slow development carries the weight it does outside of "the faithful." This line of conversation doesn't pause until Apple makes like a real artist and ships, and it doesn't end until they do it consistently for a while.
"


this is the bottom line, and pretty much everyone knows it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:29:18 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "this is the bottom line, and pretty much everyone knows it."

And after today... Now that Apple's iPad Pro looks a lot like Microsoft's Surface Pro... Just sayin'

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:49:06 pm

the verge had a really funny line about Apple's vanquished foes, microsoft and adobe, coming to pay court. The contrast from the beginning of the century is kind of mind boggling? Both companies are so reduced in their presence on that stage.

I deeply love apple's second coming, with excalibur design prowess slaying the world, but if you were to play devil's advocate - MS slavishly update their software like trolls down in the mines. We're never getting that from apple in pro apps. They will never feel the need, because I personally think the process bores them.
And Apple doesn't ever have to be bored anymore.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 11:21:47 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "They will never feel the need, because I personally think the process bores them."

And once again, you'd be personally dead wrong.

I (and many others) talked with and had plenty of one-on-one chats with key Apple Pro Apps team members at the Creative Summit in San Jose.

They are fully engaged and fully aware.

They just don't have the luxury of waking up every day and getting to spew whatever comes into their heads out into the inter-webs like the rest of us.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:53:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And after today... Now that Apple's iPad Pro looks a lot like Microsoft's Surface Pro... Just sayin'"

Cupertino, start your photocopiers?

I love my SP3, and you'll love yours, too. :)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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James Ewart
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 10, 2015 at 8:07:44 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Apple seems to have a tendency to produce something awesome, revolutionary and promising in version 1, develop it to a certain point in a flurry of activity over a few years... and then not take it significantly further."

EWorld was pretty cool to. I loved EWorld.

I know two companies now who waited and waited and waited and in then end went the route of Premiere. They just could not be bothered to change the way they thought about editing which served them well. They did not need the wheel reinvented. FCP7 to PP. Easy peasy.

I do get that.


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Tony West
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 2:13:41 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "[Walter Soyka] "But looking at products like Motion, which is now 11 years old and still running, or Aperture which was 10 when EOLed, Apple seems to have a tendency to produce something awesome, revolutionary and promising in version 1, develop it to a certain point in a flurry of activity over a few years... and then not take it significantly further.

Apple has earned a bit of reputation here, which is why the point of current slow development carries the weight it does outside of "the faithful." This line of conversation doesn't pause until Apple makes like a real artist and ships, and it doesn't end until they do it consistently for a while.
"

this is the bottom line, and pretty much everyone knows it."


How much does any of this really matter when you think about it. Who thinks they will be working on the same program for the rest of their career anyway.

I started cutting in the mid 80's on 3/4 inch machine to machine.

Then moved to cmx (better)

Then moved to AVID (better)

Then moved to FCP (I liked it better)

Then moved to X (I like it better)

I like X but something will come along years from now that I like better. Isn't that just part of reality?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 2:23:07 am

[Tony West] "How much does any of this really matter when you think about it. Who thinks they will be working on the same program for the rest of their career anyway."

The people that are still mad about FCP X being the replacement for FCP 7 probably did. I'm sure if Avid 'pulled an X' you'd see an even greater blow up because the fundamentals of operating Avid MC haven't changed since the 90's. Paradoxically people will say they don't expect to be doing it the same way forever but they'll still feel blind sided by change. Something along the lines of, "I know change is going to happen but I didn't know/want/expect it to happen now."

BTW, if you insert Premiere (the old Premiere) in between "Avid" and "FCP Legend" I think you'd label it "liked it less". Not everything is onwards and upwards. ;)


-Andrew


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Tony West
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 4:13:06 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Tony West] "How much does any of this really matter when you think about it. Who thinks they will be working on the same program for the rest of their career anyway."

The people that are still mad about FCP X being the replacement for FCP 7 probably did."


I don't know why they would think that. Everything is constantly changing in this field.

SD HD 6k you name it. The only thing anybody should know in this field is that there will be many changes ahead.

You might not "like"it but you should "expect" it


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Andrew Kimery
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 4:38:08 am

[Tony West] "I don't know why they would think that. Everything is constantly changing in this field."

I agree, but I think a lot of people say they expect change to happen but they don't prepare for change to happen. Kinda like how most people say they know they should have a supply of batteries, nonperishable food, clean water, etc.,. in case of emergency but how many people actually have those things?

When the X-bomb dropped many of the people I was working with at the time were pretty young career wise (25-30ish) and FCP Legend was the only NLE they knew. They used it in HS and/or college then got a job using it and when it got EOL'd suddenly they felt rudderless and like all the skills they had built up over the years were useless. Part of the problem is they weren't differentiating their platform specific NLE knowledge from their non-platform specific editing knowledge and part of the problem is they never expected Apple to do what it did.

The constant change is one reason why I don't buy into the 'you'll going to be renting Adobe CC for the rest of your life' FUD. Rest of my life? I don't know what will be my primary NLE in 3yrs let alone 30yrs. 2015 looks a lot different than 2010 and I expect 2020 to look even more different.


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Tony West
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 12:37:59 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " I think a lot of people say they expect change to happen but they don't prepare for change to happen. "

I know they don't. I'm saying that's their fault for not preparing for it. It's not someone else's fault you didn't prepare.

[Andrew Kimery] "I was working with at the time were pretty young career wise (25-30ish) and FCP Legend was the only NLE they knew. "

Yes, I was that age once also Andrew. All I knew was timecode online editing when AVID came out.
I made adjustments to the reality so I could keep working. Many people tossing this line are a long way from 20 years old so you are reaching in the context of this forum : ))

Young folks have it way better than I did when I was coming up. If you didn't get in a post house or had money you couldn't even get in the game.

Nobody helped you learn anything. You were their competition. Anything you learned outside of college you had to learn it on your own. Couldn't just go online and watch people teach you the trade for FREE
No plug-ins to just drop in.

Man up! Young folks

Stop making excuses for young people who don't think change is coming and teach them that it is.

You are doing them a disservice.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 3:41:25 pm

I think you are reading a lot into what I've said Tony. You seemed perplexed that people wouldn't expect things to change so I was just providing a first hand account of co-workers getting blind sided by change, and why they most likely allowed it to happen.

I'm not doing anyone a disservice or blaming companies or making excuses or trying to have a context for this forum. I'm just telling you what I witnessed.

[Walter Soyka] "Consider applications like Illustrator (1987), Photoshop (1990), Flame (1992), and After Effects (1993). These are tools you can build a career with. Ae is the youngest of these, and at 22, it's old enough to buy itself a beer back home in Seattle."

Isn't this more of a hindsight look though? I mean, how many programs that started in the early 90's are still around and viable today? If we tried to pick which programs would still be around in 2035 would it be anymore than just guessing?


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Tim Wilson
Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
on Sep 11, 2015 at 6:42:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Walter Soyka] "Consider applications like Illustrator (1987), Photoshop (1990), Flame (1992), and After Effects (1993). These are tools you can build a career with. Ae is the youngest of these, and at 22, it's old enough to buy itself a beer back home in Seattle."

Isn't this more of a hindsight look though?"


History only works in hindsight, my friend. LOL


[Andrew Kimery] "If we tried to pick which programs would still be around in 2035 would it be anymore than just guessing?"

As the financial guys say, "Past performance is no guarantee of future returns."

However, if we can't learn from history, then we can't learn from anything.

So what does history teach us?


Here's an interesting game to play: whose applications are still vibrant 20+ years later?

We start with the ones Walter mentioned

  • Illustrator
  • Photoshop
  • After Effects


I'll add:
  • Premiere (1991)
  • Acrobat (1993)



To Flame, I'll add

  • 3D Studio Max (3D Studio: 1990, on DOS!!!)


  • And
    • Avid/1 (1989)/Film Composer (1992 - and all of FC was rolled into MC in 1998...but even if we limit it to MC, we're well past 20 years)
    • Pro Tools (1989)


    Media 100 (1994) is around, and much beloved (including by me), but that was after being dead, and even now, is hardly a Tier One player, which I think is all we're talking about.

    So who'm I missing?

    Here's the one thing we know: nothing from Apple on that list.

    Mayyyybe if you count QuickTime, but as an application (which is what we're talking about), hardly a major player.


    The name that towers above the rest is Adobe. Plain and simple. Nobody in this industry is close. So I'll bet you a real pony that ALL of the applications listed above are still around in 20 years.

    I know that there are a lot of "sky is falling"-sayers re: Avid, but I ain't buyin' it. I concede that I'm not quite ready to bet a real pony...but I'm not quite NOT ready to bet a real pony either. They've weathered a lot, and as many, many others have observed, the arrival of OS X STRENGTHENED Avid's position in its core markets (while admittedly doing not one damn thing to extend its core markets).

    Since FCPX wasn't around FIVE years ago, much less 20, it MAY be premature to count it out...so I won't...but I wouldn't bet even a hobby horse in favor of it. Other than QuickTime, there's simply no precedent for ANYTHING from Apple lasting 20 years.

    I remain intrigued by the notion of a 10 year plan for FCPX. How long did FCP last? Twelve years, tops. Yes, yes, you can call X a follow-on, but that's sophistry at best, and really, if you're being honest, quite simply wrong. Please don't even start.

    The iTunes face of QuickTime might seem like a shoe-in, but my feeling is that that's the first to go. It's a HIDEOUS way to manage devices, and I can't imagine that Timmy C is going to tolerate it for much longer. It's clearly not the future of Apple's media delivery anymore.


    So really, it's insane to bet against Adobe still bringing engaging, growing software in 20 years. Absolute insanity.

    I think it's a mug's game to bet against Avid. Are you a mug? Didn't think so.

    Or Autodesk for that matter. Killing Softimage was overdue. The only reason they bought it was because they bought it for coins they found behind sofa cushions...but Max? Unlikely.

    Maya "only" came along 16 years ago, but absolutely not going anywhere. Another 20 is a shoe-in. As long as Autodesk provides OS updates, its extensibility will allow third-party developers to keep it vivid into eternity.

    (Apple's cannibalism, if not outright slaughter, of third parties is one of the things that bodes ill for the future of any of its applications.)

    But really, the sure bets here are Adobe Photoshop, AE, Illustrator, and PDF, absolutely, with Dreamweaver and InDesign as overwhelming favorites.

    FCPX, absolutely not. You may disagree, but nothing in history suggests even a remote possibility.


    I do note that what's interesting about this is that the notion of software surviving 20 years or more is quite new. It's like the idea of rock stars performing into their 70s. Have you seen The Rolling Stones recently? Absolutely astonishing. There's not a single one of you, NONE of you, in as good a physical condition as even Keith fgjk-ing Richards, much less Mick Jagger, and none of your voices is as strong. And dude easily runs 2 miles WHILE he's singing. I've never seen anything like it.

    Even though he said on his 25th birthday that he couldn't imagine still doing it at 30. Now, I can't imagine him NOT doing it at 75.

    Bruce Springsteen at 65? A shoe-in for another 10 or more. Madonna at 56 is still selling more records than you know, and drawing the biggest concert crowds of her career. And again, none of you is as strong or fit as she is.

    And Paul McCartney at 74, still delivering 40-song sets, two and a half hour shows with no intermission. Somebody recently asked him, "Don't you want to sit down sometimes, 3ven just when you're playing solo acoustic?" To which he replied, "Why the hell would I sit down? Besides, even if I thought I might like to, I simply can't. I have too much energy when I perform."

    Examples abound, and not one of these folks thought they'd still be going this hard. (Okay, Madonna ALWAYS did. I think she's planning to keep going til 100, and I'm keeping my ponies rather than bet against her.)

    I think that's where we are with software too. I don't know that ANY developer imagined that they'd be developing the same software 20 years later. Their world was too new to have a clear picture of the future.

    But based on history, I really do think that some bets are easy. Lots of Adobe apps, yes. FCPX, no. Take those to the bank.


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    Herb Sevush
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 6:59:23 pm

    [Tim Wilson] "Here's an interesting game to play: whose applications are still vibrant 20+ years later?"

    You can't really include Premiere Pro in here. Premiere Pro was, exactly like FCPX, a totally new program with zero backward compatibility with Premiere. Like X, the only thing carried forward by Adobe was the name.

    Herb Sevush
    Zebra Productions
    ---------------------------
    nothin' attached to nothin'
    "Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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    David Roth Weiss
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 7:15:34 pm
    Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Sep 11, 2015 at 7:24:32 pm

    [Herb Sevush] "You can't really include Premiere Pro in here. Premiere Pro was, exactly like FCPX, a totally new program with zero backward compatibility with Premiere. Like X, the only thing carried forward by Adobe was the name.
    "


    I respectfully disagree with you Herb - not that everything you said about Premiere isn't 100% accurate, just that Premiere, while rebuilt, does not require relearning an entirely new editing paradigm and entirely new lingo. It's essentially very familiar to anyone who's used earlier versions of Premiere, FCP Legacy, etc.

    So, while you are technically correct, I think Premiere is still close enough to its earlier iterations that it should be considered as still here after all these years. (***FYI, Avid was also rebuilt from scratch at one point, but it's also similar enough to call it old at this point)

    David Roth Weiss
    Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
    David Weiss Productions
    Los Angeles


    David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 7:26:47 pm

    It's certainly interesting that unlike those "legacy" software programs - conceived and created decades ago and still sticking to their design guns 20 years later - the rest of the entire PLANET has changed so much.

    Madonna - still quite the rage on MTV?

    McCartney - with a new LP coming out?

    Adobe - with those bold new ideas that go far beyond linear tracks pulled from the mag tape of the 1960s?

    Entropy.

    Things don't change until they do.

    And when they do, they do.

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Herb Sevush
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 8:01:02 pm

    [Bill Davis] "It's certainly interesting that unlike those "legacy" software programs - conceived and created decades ago and still sticking to their design guns 20 years later - the rest of the entire PLANET has changed so much."

    The wheel - still rolling.

    The alphabet - still spelling

    the baseball bat - still good for breaking heads

    So yes, it's possible to be over 20 years old and be perfectly productive.

    Most new products fail, on merit.

    So it's possible to be an agent for change and be worthless.

    Everything changes, everything remains the same.

    Herb Sevush
    Zebra Productions
    ---------------------------
    nothin' attached to nothin'
    "Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 8:45:20 pm

    This is probably gonna tap all my allotted sarcasm for today but here we go... ;)


    [Bill Davis] "the rest of the entire PLANET has changed so much."


    Says the guy who, like the vast majority of us, is using a keyboard layout from 1873 (designed to actually make us type slower!), a computing device with roots in decades old technology, and a communication protocol developed in the 60's to tell us how everything has changed so much. If you also use modes of transportation that involve wheels, internal combustion engines, electricity, gears, metal alloys and/or vulcanized rubber then I think my head just might explode.


    All of this talk of old crap is getting me down so I'm going to get back to my tutorials for X. First, let me fire up my Mac running OS X (which is based on Unix which is older than any of the software mentioned so far in this thread). Next, let me click on X's clapboard icon to launch it, hit up the antique looking key to add some keywords and select the razor blade to make some cuts. Woah, good thing there are film sprocket holes superimposed over my clip so I know when I'm at the head/tail! This edit needs a bit of something extra... let me open up the built in Generators by clicking on the film leader icon and see whats in there. Ya know, it's so wonderful using software that doesn't needlessly adhere to concepts from the early 1900's...



    -Andrew


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 7:54:10 am

    Okay then Andrew.

    Your point is clearly that change over the past decade has been relatively minimal and that if we all just focus on exactly the same thinking editors relied upon, say, at the turn of the last century - then we'll be just fine.

    No more efficiency to be gained.

    No advancements needed.

    Just keep doing what granddad did and all will be peachy!

    Hey, I know! I still have a "cheese grater" Mac Pro with 8 Gigs, a 500 gig oot drive and your highly valued "perpetual" keyboard + single button mouse! Wanna make me an offer?

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 4:30:24 pm

    [Bill Davis] "Your point is clearly...
    "


    Interesting assumption... I thought it was pretty clear that my point was to lampoon your post by pointing out all the decades, if not centuries, old technology that's used in even the most ultra-modern lifestyle. C'mon, it's just a little funny that you took a shot at Adobe for taking cues from 1960's era tech while X still takes some cues from 1910 era tech.

    Here's a deeper part of my point, age is irrelevant. If it works it works. The blade tool, for example, still exists in X (and other NLEs) because it still effectively communicates the idea of what that tool does. Just like the guts in a new MP are basically the same as the guts in an old MP which are basically the same as the guts in the Gateway PC I had in college (or was it an HP?) because those same basic guts still effectively get the job done. Sure, everything is better, cheaper and faster today but it's still silicon-based x86 Intel CPUs, PCBs, transistors, USB, RAM, etc,... The change from HDD to SSD is one of the bigger differences but even the tech behind SSD is pretty old. It's been constant refinement and improvement but no major shifts like going from vacuum tubes to transistors.

    As an older gentleman living in a culture that has problems with ageism I thought you'd put less emphasis on age and more emphasis on effectiveness. ;)


    Return to posts index

    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 6:46:43 pm
    Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 12, 2015 at 6:47:25 pm

    [Andrew Kimery] "As an older gentleman living in a culture that has problems with ageism I thought you'd put less emphasis on age and more emphasis on effectiveness. ;)"

    After 40 years in this business, the only thing I really value any more is mental agility.
    The ability to WANT to survey the ever changing landscape and not get stuck encountering new challenges - but always trying to solve them the same way you always have just because that's all you know.

    Biggest compliment I've gotten in the past 5 years was from Ben King, the senior editor at the BBC who I spent some time drinking with at NAB 2012. More than a year later - after numerous additional on-line exchanges - and on another board entirely, he described me as something like "the least out-of-date guy I know."

    Mental agility breeds that.

    So I agree. It's not age - it's attitude.

    Age just gives one enough life perspective to be a whole lot less concerned about what other people will think about you - if you are saying something you honestly feel to be right.

    ; )

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


    Return to posts index

    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 12:08:05 am

    [Tim Wilson] "I know that there are a lot of "sky is falling"-sayers re: Avid, but I ain't buyin' it. I concede that I'm not quite ready to bet a real pony...but I'm not quite NOT ready to bet a real pony either. They've weathered a lot, and as many, many others have observed, the arrival of OS X STRENGTHENED Avid's position in its core markets (while admittedly doing not one damn thing to extend its core markets)."

    Ironically there are a number of big shops that used to be FCP "classic" strongholds, who are shifting to Media Composer/Isis set-ups.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 6:59:35 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "Ironically there are a number of big shops that used to be FCP "classic" strongholds, who are shifting to Media Composer/Isis set-ups."

    One of those was Bunim/Murray, among the first (THE first?) major broadcast producers to adopt FCP -- currently 10 shows on 4 networks iirc.

    Their SVP of Post-Production, Mark Raudonis has been a COW member for over a dozen years, and posts here regularly on topics including this one.

    Just 2 days ago on the https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/83735'>Avid - Why Not? thread in this forum, Mark wrote:


    [Mark Raudonis] "Why not? Better to ask, "WHY?". The reasons that AVID is strong in Hollywood center around the few things that they do better than anyone else: Large, shared storage work groups. Large projects (features, reality TV) require many people all working on the same media simultaneously. None of the other players can match Avid's mastery of this workflow."



    Mark also wrote an article about that very issue for us back in 2012:

    Real World Editing: From Avid to FCP and Back Again




    You can see it in the COW and in "the world," and I've observed it myself. I also see this process accelerating as many of the longtime FCP 7 holdouts find themselves needing to upgrade their facilities. They look around and find that those few things that Avid excels at are exactly the things for which these folks need excellence.

    I'm sure this doesn't need repeating, but ima do it anyway: none of this says anything about what YOU should be using.

    It's simply to underscore my view that anybody counting out Avid needs to recheck their math.


    Return to posts index

    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 7:36:46 pm

    [Tim Wilson] "One of those was Bunim/Murray, among the first (THE first?) major broadcast producers to adopt FCP -- currently 10 shows on 4 networks iirc.
    Their SVP of Post-Production, Mark Raudonis has been a COW member for over a dozen years, and posts here regularly on topics including this one"


    Mark and I have known each other for a long time. Another company I just saw in Post magazine is Pie Town, who is also heavy into non-scripted TV.

    A multi-editor, shared-project environment is important to these companies. And they are in LA, where good Avid talent is easy to find.

    Mark pioneered this with FCP so he's seen the advantages and disadvantages to each system. In the end, it's which system has the fewest choke points and lets you make your airdates. Everything else is secondary.

    I think it was Mark who made this analogy, but FCP vs. Avid is sort of the hot fling versus the stable wife (I'm paraphrasing, so sorry if I have that wrong).

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 9:58:27 pm

    [Oliver Peters] " Pie Town, who is also heavy into non-scripted TV

    Yeah, they too are handling 10 series, currently delivering 400 episodes/year. Even though they too were heavy into FCP, when it came time to upgrade their systems this year, Avid was the slam dunk. Not just for the NLE, but for the ecosystem that we WAY too rarely talk about here: ISIS, Avid Everywhere, Avid MediaCentral, Pro Tools, etc etc etc. Apple never had that range of resources at its peak of extensibility, and certainly has far less now.

    Some folks critical of Avid might say, "Hollywood has nothing to do with anything." For Avid, Hollywood (and Hollywood-style workflows outside that one small neighborhood in northern Los Angeles) is EVERYTHING. If Avid is losing in Hollywood, they're losing. Full stop. If Avid is gaining in Hollywood, they're winning. Right now, they're winning BIG.

    Avid put together a press release with Pie Town that we posted here.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 10:11:21 pm

    Not sure of the exact workflow but I know Pie Town is using Resolve for grading. Who knows, if the editing in Resolve eventually gets good enough it could displace Avid from the inside. Grant Petty's trojan horse! ;)


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 1:13:34 am

    [Andrew Kimery] " if the editing in Resolve eventually gets good enough it could displace Avid from the inside. Grant Petty's trojan horse! ;)"

    As an NLE, the sky's the limit. But the NLE part is the lowest bar to pass. I know YOU get this, but that's something I see come up in conversation here almost NEVER (except on this and the Avid Why Not threads).

    "Avid" isn't an NLE. It's not just "The Avid." It's The Force. "An energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

    ISIS isn't storage, and Avid Everywhere isn't "the cloud." They're extensions of The Force.

    So yeah, as an NLE, Avid has a lot NOT to recommend about itself. As an NLE, I think Premiere is still in front by a neck for most people, and a length or more behind for X lovers. Avid isn't even on the track as an NLE...

    ...but for somebody with many seats, many TB, many episodes, many deadlines, only The Avid offers The Force.



    [Andrew Kimery] "I know Pie Town is using Resolve for grading. "

    With a nod of respect to Lumetri and other vastly underrated in-NLE grading tools, EVERYBODY uses Resolve.

    We have a whole series of tutorials here at Creative COW by Avid infrastructure whiz Scott Freeman SOLELY for the purpose of managing Media Composer/Symphony workflow with Resolve.

    (If you're using Resolve and MC, you NEED these tutorials. And be sure to keep up with Scott's lifesaving COW blog.)

    For that matter, I can't imagine an Avid project that doesn't include After Effects. I was in scores of Avid facilities and talked to thousands (yes, thousands) of Avid editors. Not more than a handful of editors touched After Effects THEMSELVES, but every PROJECT sure as shit did.

    It's worth remembering that Automatic Duck began when one Avid editor, Wes Plate, wanted a better way to roundtrip his Media Composer projects through After Effects. He couldn't find one, so he built one, and named it Automatic Duck.

    (Not that we at Creative COW can take any credit for the name, but we like the way Wes was thinking.)

    The second iteration of Automatic Duck was to get MC projects roundtripped through FCP during that window where FCP was the HD online for MC SD offline.

    Look, it's the same thing with Pro Tools. It's the same reason ISIS supports FCP, FCPX, Premiere, and anything else you can name. Nobody knows better than an Avid editor what Media Composer CAN'T do. There's a LOT it can't do, so extensibility has always been a bedrock principle.

    That's why when Apple substantially unplugged the core "hookability" of FCP when they released FCPX (hell, they killed "Send to Motion), there was an entire class of editors who said, "Welp, Apple has nothing to offer me anymore."

    It doesn't MATTER what FCPX could do with skimming or whatever. The NLE is a tiny part of a much larger universe that Apple decided they didn't want to be part of anymore.

    Which is fine. And if you don't need to be part of that universe either, also fine.

    But for people who do, Apple intentionally made itself useless. To THEM. For THAT.

    But it's more than that, really. Avid's growth isn't just being driven by the defectors to FCP defecting back. It's being driven by the staggering explosion of non-scripted TV on practically every channel. Did you know that there are something like two-dozen non-scripted shows on THE WEATHER CHANNEL?

    Sure, if you need an NLE, there are a bunch of great choices, including, increasingly, Resolve. But if you need The Force, there's only one right now.

    HERE's the Trojan Horse, though. Not Fusion per se, but eyeon's workflow toolset (only included with the paid version). When Grant finds a way to connect managed databases and workflow management to Resolve, that's going to leapfrog right over a whole bunch of limitations to the NLE itself.

    In the meantime though, this is another characteristically long-winded explanation of something that I think I did a pretty good job explaining at much less length in a previous post. LOL Anybody who counts out Avid because they think MC is ugly or old or full of tracks or whatever -- no disagreement here, and none from most MC editors.

    BUT

    ... if you need The Force, then, if I may mix movies, "There can be only one." Actually, there CAN be plenty of 'em. For now, though, only one that goes to a galaxy far, far away.

    Which is why, if there's a need for flexible, extensible, large-scale workflows for the next 20 years, The Avid will be around for the next 20 years too.


    Return to posts index

    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 6:01:20 am

    [Tim Wilson] "With a nod of respect to Lumetri and other vastly underrated in-NLE grading tools, EVERYBODY uses Resolve. "

    You and Oliver (and the press release) just mentioned Avid, and there are shows/facilities that grade and finish with Symphony, so I just wanted to toss out that Resolve was in the mix as well. Also, when I worked at Pie Town a lot of the grading was done inside FCP (using 1st and 3rd party tools) though one of the guys did use Color. If all of the shows now leave the NLE for grading then that certainly is a change in their workflow style.

    It terms of workflow speed there is something to be said for keeping the grading inside the NLE. Last minute notes/fixes/tweaks are much easier to do when you don't have to send a fix to another app, apply the fix, export out a new piece of media, import that new piece of media into the NLE and then drop it into the timeline.

    [Tim Wilson] "Which is why, if there's a need for flexible, extensible, large-scale workflows for the next 20 years, The Avid will be around for the next 20 years too."

    I agree with all you've said about Avid but, if Apple had released FCP 8 instead of FCP X then Bunim/Murray, Pie Town, etc., probably wouldn't have switched back to Avid. Some companies ditched Avid for FCP Legend, and others were never Avid to begin with, so even though Avid has The Force obviously some people were fine with something that was only kinda like The Force.

    Of course Apple did release X so what's my point? If people left Avid once there's no guarantee they won't leave Avid again for something that's a better/cheaper/faster/whatever NLE that has a 'good enough' multiuser environment. Ditto for new companies starting out. MC plus ISIS might be too expensive so they'll go with X or PPro with EditShare and probably stick with it as the company grows.

    There will always be some need for flexible, extensible, large-scale workflows but Avid already has that market pretty well covered and I don't see a whole lot of growth potential in that sector.


    [Tim Wilson] " Did you know that there are something like two-dozen non-scripted shows on THE WEATHER CHANNEL?"

    Funny you mention that. I just saw an article the other day where the Weather Channel had some layoffs and is scaling back their original content in order to refocus on weather and weather related info. They are expecting things to get nasty with the increase in over-the-top services and skinny bundles so they are trying to get back to their niche as opposed to being seen as just another channel full of reality shows.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 12:30:20 am

    [Tim Wilson] "The name that towers above the rest is Adobe. Plain and simple. Nobody in this industry is close. So I'll bet you a real pony that ALL of the applications listed above are still around in 20 years."


    Interesting... the question now is, if you win, where do we find an old folks home that will let residents have ponies? ;)


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    Tony West
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 11:04:52 pm
    Last Edited By Tony West on Sep 11, 2015 at 11:31:17 pm

    [Andrew Kimery] " I was just providing a first hand account of co-workers getting blind sided by change, and why they most likely allowed it to happen."

    Yes, I understand that, I'm saying that wouldn't happen to me with X

    I don't expect to be on the same software 10 years from now. I just don't think like that.

    I expect change. I don't feel "blind sided" when they change.

    [Andrew Kimery] " If we tried to pick which programs would still be around in 2035 would it be anymore than just guessing?"

    Exactly.

    BTW Andrew I meant that "disservice" part as kind of tongue in cheek. I should have put a happy face at the end so it didn't read so harsh. Sorry brother.


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    Jim Wiseman
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 4:41:07 am

    And CC2020 will still disappear your projects if you quit paying every month. No matter how different it is.

    Jim Wiseman
    Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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    Walter Soyka
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 10:35:56 am

    [Tony West] "How much does any of this really matter when you think about it. Who thinks they will be working on the same program for the rest of their career anyway... I like X but something will come along years from now that I like better. Isn't that just part of reality?"

    Consider applications like Illustrator (1987), Photoshop (1990), Flame (1992), and After Effects (1993). These are tools you can build a career with. Ae is the youngest of these, and at 22, it's old enough to buy itself a beer back home in Seattle.

    All these tools have maintained a respectable baseline of continuous development. When you stop continuously adding features or re-working your architecture, you get more of a current Lightwave 3D (1990) than a current 3ds Max (1990). When you have a Lightwave, you are not far from having an Avid DS (1998-2013) or a Softimage (1988-2014).

    Of course, things change. I think that if you're doing exactly the same thing the same way today that you were doing 3 years ago, you're already in trouble.

    Historically, though, slowing application development is a leading indicator of impending change. This is not unique to Apple.

    I'm not arguing that this is a reason to avoid FCPX. I think that's a bit silly. FCPX a really compelling application. I'm just trying to explain why the pace of development carries the weight it does among people not committed to FCPX.

    Walter Soyka
    Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
    Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
    @keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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    Tony West
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 12:58:01 pm

    [Walter Soyka] "I'm not arguing that this is a reason to avoid FCPX. I think that's a bit silly. FCPX a really compelling application. I'm just trying to explain why the pace of development carries the weight it does among people not committed to FCPX."

    Yes, I hear you Walter

    1. folks were on here predicting that there was not going to be a new Mac Pro because of pace

    2. I'm using X because it's the best fit for me right now. I could go to Pr or AVID anytime I want to.
    There is nothing stopping me from doing whatever I want.

    When the time comes when something fits my needs better I will just jump to that. It wouldn't be that big of a deal to me.

    If I'm cutting 10 years from now I "expect" to be on something different anyway. Don't you?


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    Jim Wiseman
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 4:49:11 am

    Photoshop certainly shows signs of slowing development. For people who don't do mograph, I read of little difference even in Premiere for basic editorial. Wasn't that one of the main reasons that rental became attractive to Adobe as a business model? Will people pay every year for a couple of glitzy non-essential features? (Many weren't, I recall the angst caused by "every other version updaters"). Rental takes away the onus of development of products that have pretty much reached most of their necessary features and require a little "help" to keep the cash flowing.

    Jim Wiseman
    Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 6:19:44 am

    [Jim Wiseman] "Rental takes away the onus of development of products that have pretty much reached most of their necessary features and require a little "help" to keep the cash flowing."

    I don't think rental factors into it all that much. For example, Adobe still needs to keep me on the CC hook for another 2 or 3 years before they'll get in subscription fees what I would have paid upfront for a perpetual license of the Master Collection. Also, for years I've heard people complain about what they consider the BS updates to Photoshop that Adobe was charging an arm and a leg for. Same thing with Avid 10yrs ago.

    It's all about competition. If Pixelmator, or that other new photo app that came our recently, can turn into a legit Photoshop competitor then Adobe will be forced to stay on top of it's game. As an editor I don't feel trapped using PPro because if it doesn't meet my needs there are 2-3 NLEs I can hop right too. If I was primarily a PS or AE user I would feel more beholden to Adobe (regardless of payment method) because there is relatively little competition.


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    Aindreas Gallagher
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 8:39:52 pm

    [Jeff Markgraf] "They're not even funny any more. "

    well, typing it still entertains me at any rate. It was either this or getting a rise out of Jeremy Corbyn supporters. Coin flip..

    http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 8:01:04 am

    Wish I knew enough about UK politics to fully appreciate the Jeremy Corbyn snark. :-)

    Andreas, I must say that I genuinely look forward to your posts. As a result, I am more disappointed than I might otherwise be when they don't measure up to your usual standard. I think you know when you're just lazily trolling, as you seem to be doing lately in this forum.

    Maybe you're too buried in work to put the effort into it. If so, then good for you - busy with work is good. But I miss those earlier days when there was some really valuable insight buried inside the purple prose. It strikes me that you are exactly the kind of poster who can cut to the heart or what's good and what's not so good in an NLE, X or other. A humorous companion, if you will, to Walter & Oliver and Jeremy (the Chicago Jeremy, not the Labour Party Jeremy).

    How about it?


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 8:03:02 am

    [Jeff Markgraf] "Wish I knew enough about UK politics to fully appreciate the Jeremy Corbyn snark. :-)"

    can you point me to the post and I will elucidate!


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 8:56:04 am

    Aindreas wrote,

    [Jeff Markgraf] "They're not even funny any more. "

    well, typing it still entertains me at any rate. It was either this or getting a rise out of Jeremy Corbyn supporters. Coin flip..


    I looked up Corbyn. A Labor candidate who seems to have come out of nowhere to lead the pack. So is Aindreas snarking as a supporter or a detractor? Is Corbyn analagous to Trump or Sarah Palin or none of the above?

    I feel like I did way back in the day when The Two Ronnies started playing in the US: didn't get all the jokes, and it was already several years out of date, anyway.


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 11:19:54 am

    [Jeff Markgraf] "Aindreas wrote,

    [Jeff Markgraf] "They're not even funny any more. "

    well, typing it still entertains me at any rate. It was either this or getting a rise out of Jeremy Corbyn supporters. Coin flip..

    I looked up Corbyn. A Labor candidate who seems to have come out of nowhere to lead the pack. So is Aindreas snarking as a supporter or a detractor? Is Corbyn analagous to Trump or Sarah Palin or none of the above?

    I feel like I did way back in the day when The Two Ronnies started playing in the US: didn't get all the jokes, and it was already several years out of date, anyway."


    Corbyn is our Bernie Sanders. Both are a breath of fresh air (in my opinion) and I don't get the joke either.


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    Aindreas Gallagher
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 9:15:08 pm

    [James Ewart] "I don't get the joke either."

    Corbynites have pretty thin skins. Start taking the piss out of him, mention his more insane - printing currency to fund social policy - ideas and they start screaming that you're tory lite. I've had good friends completely lose the rag in the face of ridiculing some of Corbyn's barmier notions. So I've taken the piss out of him an awful, awful lot.

    http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 9:36:57 pm

    [Aindreas Gallagher] "Corbynites have pretty thin skins. Start taking the piss out of him, mention his more insane - printing currency to fund social policy - ideas and they start screaming that you're tory lite. I've had good friends completely lose the rag in the face of ridiculing some of Corbyn's barmier notions. So I've taken the piss out of him an awful, awful lot."

    New forum rule, all of Aindreas' comments must come with footnotes.


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 7:16:04 am

    [Aindreas Gallagher] "Corbynites have pretty thin skins."

    Damn maybe I should have been offended by that. I never knew I had a thick skin ... but then I suppose how could I?

    As for printing currency ... well why not? If we do it to prop up banks then why not to prop up everyone else?

    Once he's dismantled the disproportionately large military machine and abandoned the nuclear deterrent, made Starbucks and Amazon pay their taxes they'll be plenty to go round.

    And we'll all be able to afford to be editing in Smoke.


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    Aindreas Gallagher
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 11, 2015 at 11:35:52 pm

    [James Ewart] "Once he's dismantled the disproportionately large military machine and abandoned the nuclear deterrent, made Starbucks and Amazon pay their taxes they'll be plenty to go round."

    yes. And at that point dougal will appear, fresh from the magic roundabout, and Albion well be made anew.







    http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 12, 2015 at 6:39:46 am

    [Aindreas Gallagher] "And at that point dougal will appear, fresh from the magic roundabout, and Albion well be made anew."

    People like what Corbyn has to say. Just like they like editing with FCPX. And what's AMAAAZING is no matter how much you tell me that FCPX is a bag of old rusty nails I still find it an excellent tool. And no matter how much you or Tony Blair tell Labour supporters that Corbyn is the anti Christ, they like what he has to say and have voted for him in their droves Funny old world innit?

    Plus I confess I have enjoyed every moment of the Labour party Old Guard closing ranks in their efforts to hold on to their jobs and the general status quo of the Labour Party. Such is the extent of Tony Blair's hubris syndrome that he has come out not once, but twice or three times to tell everyone that if they vote for Corbyn, Labour will be finished. And every time Blair opens his mouth he makes it worse. It's almost like he's working undercover for Corbyn - Blair won him the election.

    It's been bloody hilarious so far. I'm enjoying every minute of it.

    Less so the FCPX story. I so wish they had issued updates that would have satisfied you that they were in it for the long term and made you eat a big slice of humble pie. But they haven't. I wouldn't go far as to say it worries me but it's certainly food for thought.


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 14, 2015 at 6:11:26 am

    Just to keep the OT going: so now that Corbyn has won the Labour leadership, is Britain about to go down the tubes? Or is he, in fact, the downfall of Labour?

    Some interesting Bernie Sanders parallels, if you follow US politics.


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 14, 2015 at 6:36:25 am

    [Jeff Markgraf] "Just to keep the OT going: so now that Corbyn has won the Labour leadership, is Britain about to go down the tubes? Or is he, in fact, the downfall of Labour?

    Some interesting Bernie Sanders parallels, if you follow US politics."


    For sure I think both Sanders and Corbyn are saying stuff that it's hard to disagree with. It's a breath of fresh air to many. Touched a nerve.

    Whether the very far left come out of the woodwork under Corbyn remains to be seen. That could be a problem for them. Tony Blair seems to be incredibly deluded. By coming out and saying all that stuff was a classic own goal. I would say he is probably the most despised politician we have ever had in the UK.

    Will the USA allow us to dismantle our nuclear deterrent if Labour win the next election under Corbyn? I seriously doubt it. Although not a conspiracy theorist I do believe ultimately we have to do what we're told. Once upon a time a deal was done and the USA came to our rescue twice. So now if the USA tells us to "jump" we say "how high?"

    Will Bernie Sanders be the next Democratic presidential candidate? Odds over here on that are 6-1 with Hilary Clinton at 1 -3 (odds on) so seems unlikely.

    Will Donald Trump be the next Republican candidate? Is that conceivable? Jeb Bush is 7 - 4 Trump is 7 - 2. Could it happen?


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 14, 2015 at 8:47:17 am

    [James Ewart] "Will Bernie Sanders be the next Democratic presidential candidate?"

    Lots of concern that he scares the "moderate Democrats." So maybe not. But he certainly is helping to push Hilary away from her so-center-she's-practically-conservative leanings. So that's good.

    [James Ewart] "Will Donald Trump be the next Republican candidate? Is that conceivable?"

    Well...let's hope not. I think he'll eventually burn himself out. The wing nuts and low-information Republicans are currently enamored of his faux "tell it like it is" schtick. But I doubt he'll ever be loony enough for the Tea Baggers, and the more moderate Republicans (what's left of them) will eventually get bored with him.

    Or so one hopes. And yet, the idea of his winning the Republican nomination has a certain charm, because as the general electorate always moves away from the extremes of the primaries, I suspect Hilary or even Bernie would crush him in the general election.


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 14, 2015 at 9:02:13 am

    [Jeff Markgraf] "Or so one hopes. And yet, the idea of his winning the Republican nomination has a certain charm, because as the general electorate always moves away from the extremes of the primaries, I suspect Hilary or even Bernie would crush him in the general election."

    But just for fun can you imagine. Donald Trump president of the United States of America?


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 14, 2015 at 9:09:42 am

    James -



    Umm, no.


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 4:40:57 pm

    [Walter Soyka] "He compares about two years of Apple feature development with about two years of Adobe feature development, and notes that Adobe ships a lot more in the same amount of time."

    There's "statement" and there's "overstatement," and I think you've separated the two quite nicely. :-)


    [Walter Soyka] "Has Apple met your expectations with the pace and focus of development? If Apple keeps that same pace over the next two years, will you still be happy?"

    Something else you've pointed out before, Walter, that we've just entered into Year 5 of Apple's self-described 10 year plan. I think it's reasonable to say, well, THIS is the pace.

    And I think UNreasonable to say that they'll ever get faster. There's certainly zero historical basis for saying that. It has quite simply never happened. Not with the OS, not with any of the many apps they've killed, and not with any of the ones they've created or radically transformed.

    That is, Apple has proven that they keep delivering features after launch, but I also think that they've proven that those features come slowly...if at all...because they've also proven that there are features that they will, in fact, never deliver.

    It's like people have forgotten about the world of FCP pre-X. For years, the run-up to NAB was "here's what I hope they introduce," and the aftermath was very nearly always "wow, what a disappointment." Seriously. It was the one absolutely reliable dynamic for all but one or two of the 10 NABs between its introduction and X's. "What? No new version?" alternating with "What? That's all there is? What the hell have you been working on if not the top one or two features we've been asking for for all these years?"

    Not just in the COW, but across the industry. You can look it up.

    I'd have to look THIS up, but the only REALLY happy post-NAB I can remember is after the introduction of multicam in 2005.

    And it was 2005!!! Saying that FCP was the last NLE to introduce multicam is beyond an understatement. Why? Because Apple is SLOW. Has always been SLOW.

    To MY earlier point about Apple fans being forgiving, I think that satisfaction with Apple's pace is ultimately irrelevant.

    How many customers did Apple lose because they were so ridiculously late with multicam? The same number they've lost over the years because of lack of transparency. Zero. And in the meantime, Apple, from what I hear, may (MAY) have picked up a customer or two because of some other features.

    Just as Apple has indelibly and indubitably established their slow pace, Apple customers have indelibly and indubitably proven that, beyond the occasional, easily-ignored forum or blog post, Apple has no reason whatsoever to change anything about their pace, or their plans to deliver or not deliver ANYTHING.

    So if there's no downside for staying well off the pace of industry-wide NLE innovation, then there's probably no upside for them developing more in keeping with the standard.

    Which is why they're going to stay slow.

    It's still worth trying to parse the difference between "slow" and "never." To get specific about Walter's observation that I quoted to begin this post all those years ago -- it's been over four years. OVER FOUR YEARS. At what point does it become reasonable for someone to say, "FCPX will never have Send to Motion."

    Maybe never. Apple has established a pace so slow that saying "never" might NEVER be reasonable. But it certainly seems reasonable to me for someone to say, "Four years? What the hell have you been working on if not one of the top couple of requests for all these years?"

    And again, quite UNreasonable to think that Apple is going to change.


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    Mitch Ives
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 9:32:16 pm

    [Bill Davis] "Which is fair, but a question that only really matters while you HAVE older hardware - and vanishes when you no longer do."

    I'll have to respectfully disagree with that... I'm on the fastest stuff they offer and I am still not happy...

    Mitch Ives
    Insight Productions Corp.

    "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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    Alex Gollner
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 11:02:23 am

    The trick with each of these requests is to make a submission for each - with a story telling Apple why you want them. They like to then interpret what they think you need - because they don’t want to replicate features, they want to find the new right way of supporting what you do.

    Patronising of them, but that’s how I think it works.

    As post people, we are used to tailoring our message for each audience, be it people in a cinema, someone not paying attention to a TV show, a naive director or old-fashioned post supervisor.

    That also applies to communicating with Apple.

    ___________________________________________________
    Alexandre Gollner,
    Editor, Zone 2-North West, London

    alex4d on twitter, facebook, .wordpress.com & .com


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    Walter Soyka
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 11:07:31 am

    [Alex Gollner] "The trick with each of these requests is to make a submission for each - with a story telling Apple why you want them. They like to then interpret what they think you need - because they don’t want to replicate features, they want to find the new right way of supporting what you do. Patronising of them, but that’s how I think it works."

    I think nearly all developers work this way. It's important to understand why a user is proposing a solution, not just the proposed solution itself, so you can do your job.

    It's not just developers; everyone works better this way. As an editor, you want to understand why a cut's not working, not just the new cut a producer proposes.

    Walter Soyka
    Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
    Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
    @keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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    David Mathis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 12:38:01 am

    Oliver you overlooked one minor detail:

    21. Rental only. ;-)


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 12:43:27 am

    [David Mathis] "21. Rental only. ;-)"

    LOL. Everyone's a comedian ;-)

    Just to be clear. I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. I certainly have my own issues with Premiere Pro. These are simply things that would be beneficial to make a good application even better.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Gabe Strong
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:35:48 am

    That's a pretty good list, I had about 7 or 8 of those on 'my list' as well.
    The only one that you don't have that I personally would like to see,
    is the ability to attach secondary storylines to other secondary storylines
    instead of being forced to connect every secondary storyline to the primary
    storyline.

    Gabe Strong
    G-Force Productions
    http://www.gforcevideo.com


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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:56:00 am

    Interesting list. Concur with 5, 12, 17 & 18 in particular.

    Really don't care much about the UI things. Interestingly (well, interesting to me, at least ;-) ), I find that these days I end up customizing my Avid interface to be more like the 1 screen layout of X. Go figure.

    I guess because I don't usually do graphics heavy editing (I have graphics people who do the graphics), I don't see such a need for a send-to-motion, though a tight X-Motion-Logic integration might be nice.

    What I really don't get, though, is the frequent call for flattening a multi-cam. Why? What is gained? Is it a performance thing for older hardware? Genuinely puzzled.


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    Ken Pugh
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 2:44:16 pm

    What I really don't get, though, is the frequent call for flattening a multi-cam. Why? What is gained? Is it a performance thing for older hardware? Genuinely puzzled.

    One reason might be to enable the export of a simplified EDL or XML. Or to facilitate round-tripping... it's a handy feature.

    Best, Ken.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 3:22:00 pm

    [Ken Pugh] "One reason might be to enable the export of a simplified EDL or XML. Or to facilitate round-tripping... it's a handy feature."

    Yeah, if you are sending it out for grading you don't want to waste time sending a bunch of camera angles that are never used. Also, if you want to make an archive of the final project you either need a way to flatten it or to tell the program to only copy the media from the active camera angles.


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:05:58 pm

    [Jeff Markgraf] "What I really don't get, though, is the frequent call for flattening a multi-cam. Why? What is gained? Is it a performance thing for older hardware? Genuinely puzzled."

    Part of it is performance (old and new hardware), part of it is for clean lists to the outside, and part is just plain anal retentiveness. I follow the "you will be judged by your timeline" mantra and prefer to have a cleaned up, finalized timeline when I'm done. Get rid of the unnecessary angles in the finished timeline. From a standpoint of consistent UI design, if you can finalize an Audition clip, you should also be able to finalize a multicam clip.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 4:41:17 pm

    "Get rid of the unnecessary angles in the finished timeline"

    You see the multicam clip in the FCP X timeline, not unused angles.



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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:05:50 pm

    [Scot Walker] "You see the multicam clip in the FCP X timeline, not unused angles."

    Correct. I want the multicam flattened to leave you with the essence of the selected clip.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:21:58 pm
    Last Edited By Scot Walker on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:23:39 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "Correct. I want the multicam flattened to leave you with the essence of the selected clip"

    For me, it shows me the name of the clip and the thumb of the clip, just like any other clip in the timeline.



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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:24:34 pm

    [Scot Walker] "For me, it shows me the name of the clip and the thumb of the clip, just like any other clip in the timeline."

    But it is still a multicam container. I've run into issues, mainly with audio, where this was a huge problem and I ended up having to break the item apart.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 5:36:46 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "But it is still a multicam container. I've run into issues, mainly with audio, where this was a huge problem and I ended up having to break the item apart"

    I was responding to your comment " Get rid of the unnecessary angles in the finished timeline" and that's just not the case. You never ever see unused angles in the main timeline. You need to go to the angle editor to see those angles.

    In regards to a multicam clip having issues with audio, what are your issues? And how did you "break the item apart"? I'm not really sure how you do that. Maybe I can help.



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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 10:41:08 pm

    [Scot Walker] "I was responding to your comment " Get rid of the unnecessary angles in the finished timeline" and that's just not the case. You never ever see unused angles in the main timeline."

    While you don't see them, it's still media that has to be accessed from the hard drives, in the event that you want to cut to another angle. It is always being tracked in the background. Once you are done cutting angles, then there's no point in the application tracking these angles. FCP7 had a nice system of collapse/uncollapse multicam clips.

    [Scot Walker] "In regards to a multicam clip having issues with audio, what are your issues? And how did you "break the item apart"? I'm not really sure how you do that. Maybe I can help"

    It's a problem I ran into last year. I forget the exact details now, but the bottom line was that I couldn't get audio over to the Pro Tools mixer. Most clips came up with the wrong sync or clips that were only a few frames in length. A combination of "break items apart" and match-framing to the source and replacing the clips on the timeline was the fix that worked.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 3:25:26 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "While you don't see them, it's still media that has to be accessed from the hard drives, in the event that you want to cut to another angle"

    On my system, it's only accessed in the angle editor.

    [Oliver Peters] "bottom line was that I couldn't get audio over to the Pro Tools mixer"

    That sucks. I don't use Pro Tools so I got nothing.



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    Jeff Markgraf
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 6:36:48 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "I follow the "you will be judged by your timeline" mantra"

    LOL. So true. Coming from the old days of linear editing and GVG's Auto Clean function (blessed be its name), I completely get the clean timeline compulsion. As someone who manually brings all b-roll down into V1 in my Avid timelines, I find that connecting clips in X forces me to accept a...shall we say, different timeline aesthetic. ;-) (As an aside, I surely do wish Avid had an equivalent to FCP Legacy's option-up or down arrow to move clips vertically into or out of tracks. So much unnecessary mousing and undoing-redoing with command-drag.)

    I understand your point now. I hadn't considered all those unused pieces of angles going across in an XML. I assume you or someone else has done a test to see if all those hidden angles really do go across...

    Given the ability to flatten or finalize an audition, it would seem like a fairly easy thing to achieve at at timeline level.


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 6:17:09 pm

    Trying to learn and also help ...

    [Oliver Peters] "Control of preset locations for "scratch disks"

    Select a Library, select Library Properties from File menu. Click on Modify Settings next to Storage Locations. You can define Media location, the Cache (scratch), and the Backups.

    "Project consolidation with transcode and trim functions"

    What does "with transcode and trim functions" mean? You can definitely consolidate and you have the option to consolidate it with the optimized media (transcoded media) and proxies or not.

    ""Save as" for Libraries "

    Libraries are self contained and have all the media inside that and so if you want to duplicate or move, etc., you just use the Finder.

    Events, on the other hand, contain your projects and there is a Move Event feature and Copy Event feature, under the File menu.

    "Tabbed sequences"

    Totally agree and I don't know why they use the arrow back and forth between compounds, projects, etc. They should have tabs up there for you to go between all those things.

    Also agree about being able to customize the UI more. I hate having to click on Video or Audio in the Inspector. I should be able to have those both visible at the same time. What's weird is Apple's Motion used to allow you to do that and save it as a preset, but then they made it like FCP X in this regard. Stupid.

    Add to this list the fact that it doesn't page or scroll the timeline as you play. Even iMovie does that.

    "Integration with Motion"

    FCP X has always had integration with Motion. A Motion project is saved as a Generator and that shows up in your Generator tab in FCP X. Motion allows you to save as FCP X templates too.

    FCP X / Motion have more powerful integration than Premiere Pro / AE through "rigging and publishing". Premiere Pro has Live Text templates, right? This allows you to edit your text from an AE project right in Premiere Pro without having to go to AE. FCP X does that too, but much more. It allows you to change all aspects of the text including the font, the color, etc. Not only that, you can alter any parameter you want on any object from Motion. You just rig it that way. So, for example, if you create an animated lower third in Motion and you have a rectangle shape under the text, you can tell it that the rectangle shape color can be picked in FCP X - Blue, Orange, Yellow, Red. So all of the effects and animations and everything stay the same, but inside FCP X you can click on a pop-up menu and the color will be listed. It's very powerful.

    FCP X definitely needs the ability to allow me to define my Editing applications so if I double-click on a .PSD, it opens it up in Photoshop. The same with audio, etc. Don't know why they haven't done this. It's a basic feature. Right now, you have to Reveal in Finder and then double-click that because the Finder has default open preferences.

    "Some type of master audio bus with the ability to add compression and limiting"

    I use compression and limiting in FCP X all the time. It supports all the Logic effects and OS X Audio Unit effects, along with its own.

    If you want to apply an effect to the entire project, select your main timeline and turn it into a compound and then apply your limiter and compressor on that. You can also do color grading this way if you want to lower the saturation to the entire project without having to grade each clip.

    "Better control of split audio edits with transitions"

    Expanding the audio of any clip allows you to manually edit it and it ignores your transitions.

    "A "render and replace" function with re-edit abilities"

    FCP X automatically renders and replaces in the background. It's optimizing your project to ProRes all the time. I have this option turned off because my Mac is capable of playing native RED r3d files, for example, without having to transcode it. But what if I have a complex sequence with several FX and animations, etc., and it slows down every time it gets to that point. I can select it and then Render Selection. It will render a ProRes in the background and replace automatically.



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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 10:33:02 pm

    [Scot Walker] "Trying to learn and also help ..."

    Thanks. I appreciate the offer, but just so we are clear, I've been working with FCP X since 10.0. I do have a pretty good handle on how it works. I don't say that to be snotty, but simply so you know my experience with X.

    [Scot Walker] " Click on Modify Settings next to Storage Locations"

    I know that, but the default is always back to the User > Movies folder, unless you set up a target location with each new Library. There needs to be a pref setting for default location, or it should default to the last location saved. For example, in none of the work I edit, do I want the Libraries saved to the internal boot drive (if I can help it) and definitely not in the User > Movies folder.

    [Scot Walker] "Libraries are self contained and have all the media inside that and so if you want to duplicate or move, etc., you just use the Finder."

    Actually I never let clips reside in the Library. This is a very poor way to work for many projects. Using the Finder negates the whole concept of a properly designed application. I realize there are in-app move and copy functions, but these aren't as straightforward as an actual "save as". I think this boils down to Apple's across-the-board dropping of "save as" in nearly all of its applications.

    [Scot Walker] "What does "with transcode and trim functions" mean? "

    This means I want an archive file of only the clips that are in the edited sequence, plus X amount of handle length on the front and back of each clip. Not the full-length media clip. Therefore, the media clips have to be trimmed. Optionally I might want them all transcoded to an optimized codec. And by optimized, I don't just mean ProRes.

    [Scot Walker] "FCP X has always had integration with Motion. A Motion project is saved as a Generator and that shows up in your Generator tab in FCP X. Motion allows you to save as FCP X templates too."

    While Motion has become a nice effects creator that works in tandem with FCPX, we lost the "send to" functionality that existed between FCP 7 and Motion. Namely, if I wanted to send 5 clips as a group from an FCP X project to Motion for some sort of composited effect, I cannot do that. I used to be able to do that and I can now do that between Premiere Pro and After Effects.

    [Scot Walker] "If you want to apply an effect to the entire project, select your main timeline and turn it into a compound and then apply your limiter and compressor on that."

    This is a workaround. In this scenario, if you need to interactively work with clip volumes and the master volume and compression, you cannot do it. You have to step into the compound and make adjustments without the benefit of hearing or metering the result through the compression/limiting effect.

    [Scot Walker] "Expanding the audio of any clip allows you to manually edit it and it ignores your transitions."

    To clarify, I like to work with audio dissolves. Once you expand and move the audio edit points around you lose the ability to add audio dissolves. You have to fiddle around with fade handles, which is far too mousey compared with FCP7, PPro, Avid MC.

    [Scot Walker] "FCP X automatically renders and replaces in the background. It's optimizing your project to ProRes all the time."

    Actually no, this is not the same. This is background rendering and FCP X has been notorious about losing render file links in various versions since its beginning. Some versions are good and then the next version breaks it. In addition, FCP X render files are stored as AV Foundation formatted media, which are externally unaccessible by any other application.

    What I'm talking about is a specific Premiere function called "render and replace". Let's say I have a very complex composite that I've built and rendered. It's on the FCP X timeline as a compound clip. If I alter it or add a connected clip over it, the render is broken and now I have a deep re-render that has to happen.

    In Premiere Pro, the equivalent might be a Dynamic Link clip on the timeline. This is a nested After Effects composition. Having that sit there unrendered will bog down performance. If you render & replace, the composite is replaced by a new piece of media that is not simply just a render file. It's an accessible .mov in whatever format you designate. This clip includes metadata that connects it back to the original. So If I want to re-edit it by going back to the AE comp (in the FCP X scenario, go back to the compound) the metadata links this clips back to its original much like a match frame or stepping into a compound.

    I hope that clarifies my points. Thanks.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 6, 2015 at 11:13:27 pm

    Another reason for flattening multicam is timecode. When you create a new mcam clip, it assumes the TC from one of the angles or a custom code you designate. When you cut this into the timeline, the source code is that of the mcam clip, not of the source angle used in the cut. Ultimately you want the source clips to reflect the proper TC that matches the original clip (the media essence).

    Often you will not have matching code for all angles. If camera A has 12 hr TC and camera B has 14 hr TC, but you set the multicam clip with 12 hr TC, then there are issues with B-cam angles, should you need to link by code.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 3:46:43 pm

    [Oliver Peters] ", I've been working with FCP X since 10.0. I do have a pretty good handle on how it works. I don't say that to be snotty, but simply so you know my experience with X."

    Yeah, I appreciate that. I've been using it since 10.0 too. I still learn new tricks.

    [Oliver Peters] "but the default is always back to the User > Movies folder, unless you set up a target location with each new Library"

    For me, the default is in the Library.

    [Oliver Peters] "For example, in none of the work I edit, do I want the Libraries saved to the internal boot drive (if I can help it) and definitely not in the User > Movies folder."

    You have the latest version of FCP X? I experience none of this.

    You create a Library and when you do you get a "Save as..." dialogue. I pick my external Thunderbolt 2 RAID drive that reads 930 megs per second. The default for the Media, Cache, and Backup are always "In Library". So that means it will be stored in that Library file on the external drive.

    [Oliver Peters] "Actually I never let clips reside in the Library. This is a very poor way to work for many projects"

    I'm not really following you here. I create a Library and I get a Save As... dialogue and I put it on my fast external drive. I then create an Event inside that Library for each wedding. The media and the project files are located in each Event. That's the way it is designed to be used.

    Now you can link to your media instead of copying it into the event, but I copy it into the event, which is inside the library, because this allows me to just drag and drop the library to any drive I want or onto the network and everything is inside of it. There is no way to have a broken link.

    How is this a poor way to work? Thanks.

    [Oliver Peters] "While Motion has become a nice effects creator that works in tandem with FCPX, we lost the "send to" functionality that existed between FCP 7 and Motion. Namely, if I wanted to send 5 clips as a group from an FCP X project to Motion for some sort of composited effect, I cannot do that"

    Ahhh, yes. They definitely need to add that. It takes the extra step of selecting Reveal In Finder and then importing it into Motion. I use the clips as a guide in Motion and then export out a generator without the clip and lay it over the clips. This allows me to just select "Open in Motion" inside FCP X to go to Motion to make edits.

    Another annoyance is when you make that edit in Motion and save, it doesn't update in the timeline in FCP X. You have to drag it back out from the generator palette.

    [Oliver Peters] "This is a workaround. In this scenario, if you need to interactively work with clip volumes and the master volume and compression, you cannot do it. You have to step into the compound and make adjustments without the benefit of hearing or metering the result through the compression/limiting effect"

    Good point.

    [Oliver Peters] "In Premiere Pro, the equivalent might be a Dynamic Link clip on the timeline. This is a nested After Effects composition. Having that sit there unrendered will bog down performance. If you render & replace, the composite is replaced by a new piece of media that is not simply just a render file. It's an accessible .mov in whatever format you designate. This clip includes metadata that connects it back to the original. So If I want to re-edit it by going back to the AE comp (in the FCP X scenario, go back to the compound) the metadata links this clips back to its original much like a match frame or stepping into a compound"

    OK. If I have a generator in FCP X from Motion and it bogs down the playback of FCP X, I just select it and press CONTROL R and it renders it into a video clip that plays back in real time. If I take that generator and Open in Motion and edit it, then go back to FCP X, I have to press CONTROL R again to render it. So you are saying in Premiere Pro, you dont' have to render an AE comp again after you've made changes to the original?

    Thanks for taking time to explain. :)



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    Mathieu Ghekiere
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 4:03:43 pm
    Last Edited By Mathieu Ghekiere on Sep 7, 2015 at 4:06:52 pm

    Scott,

    you are working with managed media (when you let FCPX copy it to the library).
    Yes, it's all in one library, but...

    - it's more difficult sharing projects between people who have the same set of media. All sharing is more difficult, except the fact of just handing someone over that big Library file. (It's also more difficult to work with non-XSAN shared storage because if you need to copy the FCPX Library to your local drive, it will be gigabytes instead of megabytes).

    - you cannot organise it on a Finder level the way you want. It becomes hidden in a FCPX package, sometimes with a name FCPX gives it.For instance, if you work with old XDCAM discs, they would often name the clips C001. If you organise it your way, you can have that all in seperate folders (DAY 01 - Clip C001, DAY 02 - Clip C002). If you have FCPX manage it, it's in one giant folder hidden in the package, with just C001 (1), C001 (2) ... If you have 10 like that, it gets very difficult to manage if something goes wrong.

    - when working with RED RAW media, it's easier to afterwards change RAW settings to your footage, and have it update in FCPX. That's the whole point of the .RMD setting you can save with R3D media.


    I think it's good that FCPX provides both options, but I do think that not working with managed media is the best option in the most cases, because it's the most flexible. There is a good PDF floating around somewhere about shared workflows on FCPX, and it also tells it's best management NOT to copy into the Event. (EDIT: http://www.10dot1.co.uk/content/FCPXInASharedEnvironment_FINAL.pdf)
    It's not a bad workflow if you are very bad at organising your stuff (like some cameramen who are not used to organising their stuff and constantly used to have Media Offline messages in FCP7 - not talking about you necessarily) or if you are a complete one-man band. Even then, I would think an FCPX projects of gigabytes and gigabytes can be very unwieldy, and if it gets corrupted, it's a more difficult problem potentially, with all your media inside.

    About FCPX saving automatically in the User-Movies folder: it does that at least when starting up for the first time with an Untitled project.


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 4:37:20 pm

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "it's more difficult sharing projects between people who have the same set of media. All sharing is more difficult, except the fact of just handing someone over that big Library file"

    I'm not saying I know best, I'm only sharing my workflow that works well for me. I'm totally open to learn different ways that might be better, though, so I appreciate your input.

    To share, I just use the Consolidate command. For example, sending to color for a narrative film, I export the XML and then use the Consolidate command to an external drive and send it off. Works perfectly. If my media was external instead of managed, I'd export the XML and then copy the project folder to an external drive. Pretty much the same.

    I'm not in a studio with multiple people on a network. I'm in a home studio. So I haven't had to deal with sharing over a local network and I understand that SAN is very expensive. Apparently, you can share a Library on your network with NFS: http://www.doubleprecision.be/blog/2014/5/9/how-to-share-final-cut-pro-x-li...


    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "you cannot organise it on a Finder level the way you want. It becomes hidden in a FCPX package, sometimes with a name FCPX gives it"

    I've never seen it rename the clips. My clips always come in with the filename and stay that way. Accessing the clip in the Finder is just right-clicking and selecting "Reveal In Finder". Library folder hierarchy is pretty clear. There is a folder for each event, a folder for each project, an original media folder, etc.

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "when working with RED RAW media, it's easier to afterwards change RAW settings to your footage, and have it update in FCPX"

    FCP X has a "Modify RED RAW Settings" button under Info when you select a clip with color space, gamma, iso, kelvin, etc. inside FCP X. I cut a short narrative shot on a RED Epic in 5K wide 3:1 compression and used managed media and it worked really well. If you want to access those clips for external applications, you just right-click on it in FCP X and select Reveal In Finder whether FCP X is managing it or not.

    I get projects from different people who organize their secondary sound and the video clips in different ways. If I have 3 days of footage on a cheap external hard drive that is given to me, I don't have to figure out how they managed it. I don't copy it to my drive via the Finder and then organize it the way I want. I had RED footage with its multiple folders and duplicates, and sound, and I just selected Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 at once and FCP X copied it to my Library for me with no RED folders (unlike Premiere Pro) and no duplicates. It creates a key word for folder names like Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 so if I want to isolate just Day 1's media, you just click on that key word.

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "Even then, I would think an FCPX projects of gigabytes and gigabytes can be very unwieldy"

    It's the same amount of space if it's managed or external.



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    Mathieu Ghekiere
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 4:50:55 pm

    Hi Scott,

    [Scot Walker] "I'm not saying I know best, I'm only sharing my workflow that works well for me. I'm totally open to learn different ways that might be better, though, so I appreciate your input.

    To share, I just use the Consolidate command. For example, sending to color for a narrative film, I export the XML and then use the Consolidate command to an external drive and send it off. Works perfectly. If my media was external instead of managed, I'd export the XML and then copy the project folder to an external drive. Pretty much the same.

    I'm not in a studio with multiple people on a network. I'm in a home studio. So I haven't had to deal with sharing over a local network and I understand that SAN is very expensive. Apparently, you can share a Library on your network with NFS: http://www.doubleprecision.be/blog/2014/5/9/how-to-share-final-cut-pro-x-li....."


    I didn't think you were telling people you know better. I'm enjoying the input, and I'm sure you do too.

    The consolidate command is very handy, and it kinds of makes sure that there is a way out if you choose external or managed media and want to choose the other option. Still, then you get folders with how FCPX calls your events and dates. If that's how you organise, that's fine, but if you do it in the Finder, you have more options about how to organize it to your suiting.

    About the Library and NFS stuff: it's a good option, but if I'm not mistaken (I know Filip from Double Precision a bit, we live in the same city :-)) it isn't perfectly stable as of yet and there were some issues here and then. I could be wrong.
    I hope you also check out the pdf about sharing workflows, it has a lot of interesting information.

    [Scot Walker] "I've never seen it rename the clips. My clips always come in with the filename and stay that way. Accessing the clip in the Finder is just right-clicking and selecting "Reveal In Finder". Library folder hierarchy is pretty clear. There is a folder for each event, a folder for each project, an original media folder, etc."

    It does that if you work with managed media, and clips have the same name. Which is kind of logical, considering under the hood it puts it in one big folder, so if you have 2 clips with the same name, FCPX has to differentiate them on a Finder level.

    [Scot Walker] "FCP X has a "Modify RED RAW Settings" button under Info when you select a clip with color space, gamma, iso, kelvin, etc. inside FCP X. I cut a short narrative shot on a RED Epic in 5K wide 3:1 compression and used managed media and it worked really well. If you want to access those clips for external applications, you just right-click on it in FCP X and select Reveal In Finder whether FCP X is managing it or not."

    Yes and no. FCPX has some options, but not all of the options that you find in REDCINE. It's easier to go to a Finder folder, select the R3D's and do some changes in REDCINE, then it is to first go into FCPX, click on Reveal in Finder, and then go and select those clips (one by one, depending on how you organised it) and then go and change those in REDCINE. And that's the good thing about working with external RED RAW media and the RMD file. You change the file, and those changes travel together with that file, and multiple programs can easily access the SAME media, with the same changes to the RAW media.

    [Scot Walker] "It's the same amount of space if it's managed or external."
    Of course, taking it as a whole. But the project file itself, the FCPX bundle. It's easier to 'throw' it around when it's a couple of megabytes, to send it to someone, etc. ... instead of it being gigabytes big. Of course there is the Consolidate command as a kind of resque option, but I once you start working in a studio with multiple people, people offloading in a certain way in the finder, wanting to access that stuff from a normal server, and not digg into an FCPX bundle, the whole working with external media is more flexible.
    That being said, I'm glad the whole 'copy to Library' option exists in FCPX and I'm sure it's an easy media management tool for a lot of people.


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    Scot Walker
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 5:34:20 pm

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "And that's the good thing about working with external RED RAW media and the RMD file"

    Great info, thanks.

    If you look inside the Original Media folder inside a Library, you'll see the RED folders A003_C005_01016M and the RED files with the RMD etc. You only need to do Reveal In Finder one time to get you inside the Library in the Finder (You can also just open up the Library in the Finder by right-clicking and selecting Show Package Contents) and at the clips. From there, you can take all those clips and do what you do with your external method.

    For example, I often use Adobe Audition to clean up audio. I simply Reveal In Finder, double-click (because on my Mac Audition is the default app for WAV), and edit it in Audition, save, then go back into FCP X and it's updated.

    So if my media was external, I'd do the same thing: select Reveal In Finder to quickly go to that clip, it opens up the Finder and reveals the media, and then I can go and edit them all if I want through the Finder, then go back to FCP X and it's updated.

    I do understand how sending a Library without the media to someone is easier. Does FCP X handle that well? If you send it to another person and they open a project, are the links to the media are to a network drive? I guess you guys use proxies? I've never used proxies because it's all local for me and my drive is fast enough. So you have all the media on a network drive and the proxies are created there too, so then when you send someone a Library with the project but without the media, FCP X will open it up and then go get the proxies over the network and load it up pretty quickly over the network?

    Thanks again!



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    Tom Sefton
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 10:17:47 am

    This is correct regarding the missing red controls in FCPX. Just one thing to note that Premiere CC can do - you can adjust all of the settings that are available in RedCine X, and export a look that you can apply to all clips on a timeline or in a folder. FCPX still has relatively limited controls for raw red files.

    Co-owner at Pollen Studio
    http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 12:16:12 pm

    One thing to keep in mind about raw settings is that the only parts that affect the pre-RGB image is tempt, tint, ISO and debayer quality. I'm not sure about some of RED's other controls, like FLUT and HDR, but nearly everything else happens after the image is debayered and turned into RGB. Controls like curves can be done just as effectively with any color tool. So while PPro and certainly Redcine-X Pro offer more control than FCPX's raw settings, it doesn't actually result in a better or cleaner end product.

    Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 7:44:49 pm

    [Scot Walker] "I've never seen it rename the clips. My clips always come in with the filename and stay that way. Accessing the clip in the Finder is just right-clicking and selecting "Reveal In Finder". Library folder hierarchy is pretty clear. There is a folder for each event, a folder for each project, an original media folder, etc."

    See the attached screen grab. This is a C300 clip that was imported into the Library and FCPX rewrapped the file. The Finder name is the renamed file created by FCPX, whereas the event clip name is the file name from the camera.



    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 7, 2015 at 5:26:58 pm

    [Scot Walker] "For me, the default is in the Library."

    When you create a new library you have 4 locations to set - the Library location, then media, cache and back-ups. The default is to put media in the Library. But what if you want it always in a different location? For example, Library on Drive A, Media on Drive B, and cache on Drive C. There should be a preferences setting to control that, without having to set that up each time I create a new library.

    [Scot Walker] "You create a Library and when you do you get a "Save as..." dialogue."

    Just to be clear, this "save as" terminology is not the same as when I say the app should have a "save as" dialogue. IOW I want to be able to save an existing library to a new location with a new name using a "save as" menu item, like in most other applications.

    [Scot Walker] " So you are saying in Premiere Pro, you don't have to render an AE comp again after you've made changes to the original?"

    No. Let's say you created a 50-layer composite as a Motion generator an placed it on an FCPX timeline. Or you create a 50-layer AE composition and placed it on a Premiere Pro timeline as a Dynamic Link clip. In both cases you can render and you can re-open the clip in the compositing application and make changes and then re-render. In both cases, It you add a clip above it on the timeline, the render is broken and you have to re-render the full composite+1 all over again. Thus a very longer render again. The render files themselves are opaque preview files, that in the case of FCPX, cannot be accessed by any other application.

    Premiere Pro has the additional "render & replace" function. This specifically came out of "Gone Girl" where each clip on the timeline was an AE comp due to shot stabilization done with AE. If you want to render that 50-layer AE clip as a master file, such as ProRes4444, you can. It get's labelled and stored like any other media clip. Because it also carries embedded XMP data I can opt to re-edit this "baked" media file. When I do so, it reverts back to the AE comp and still lets me make changes. I don't lose any links to the composition that created it, even though the timeline no longer carries the baggage of the AE comp within the timeline. Naturally changes have to be re-rendered - either normally or as another "render & replace".

    Because the clip in the timeline is a new media file, if I add a clip on top, the system is only seeing two layers, not 51, so any subsequent render is faster, if even required at all.

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Eric Santiago
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 1:41:53 pm

    I took a break from fixing a mess in Premiere with RED files.

    After reading a few posts on this post, I can list a few things that I wish Premiere would just fix period :P


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    Mathieu Ghekiere
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 4:48:35 pm

    Hi Eric,

    there is a thread made for that, a couple of threads below this one ;-)

    To add to this thread. I'm not a big Premiere user (I used to be, but it's 10 years ago), and there isn't that much that I would really want from it in FCPX. 2 things that cross my mind:

    - The audio-clean up that is available in Audition, would be great to have in FCPX. We used to have Soundtrack Pro, but it's gone, and the ability to make a noise print and then process it isn't possible with the current Background Noise canceling function in FCPX. And Logic doesn't really have those options too, from what I've been informing. So yeah. That.

    - That morph cut seems handy (I haven't tried it to see if it works as well as the demos). I know there is a work-around to kind of achieve the same thing in FCPX with Optical Flow, but to have that function would be handy.

    There is probably more if I knew Premiere better, but I'm too happy with FCPX (and the whole trackless editing paradigm + the organisational features in FCPX) to check Premiere again. And I like to own my software.


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    Eric Santiago
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 5:05:34 pm
    Last Edited By Eric Santiago on Sep 8, 2015 at 5:05:58 pm

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "there is a thread made for that, a couple of threads below this one ;-)"

    I am stuck on one idiotic problem with using RED files and Premiere.

    Trying to force relink RED files after OFFLINING proxies is a nightmare.

    You cant select more than one file in the Find Media window.

    That is ridiculous!

    Its smooth as butter in FCPX :P


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 5:42:50 pm

    And speaking of things Apple needs to pay attention to:

    http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2015/09/premiere-pro-cc-ibc.html

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Andy Field
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 6:05:41 pm

    In terms of fast and slow - I'm a premiere pro user - and as they say in New England - it's Wicked Fast..... However I wanted to use FCP X for some graphics work and built in plugins not available in Premiere

    (Stupid raisins easy to use animated charts)

    I'm on the latest and greatest Macbook Pro Retina (bought two months ago) maxed out ram and graphics card

    FCP X is the ONLY thing running - and it was slow and glitchy -- response time to click on play make parameter changes -- all slow with a delay

    This would drive me nuts if I used it ever day

    Those issues aren't a "feature" of PP CC 2015

    Andy Field
    FieldVision Productions
    N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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    Mathieu Ghekiere
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 6:07:02 pm

    There's nothing in that list that attracts me, to be honest.
    I know their previous update had a lot of new big features but this one seems to be a lot about stuff that isn't really mainstream yet (HDR).

    I do wish compressor would get h.265 in the future, but I don't think it's very urgent feature.

    The only thing I miss when reading that press release is how Apple doesn't communicate like that, with a roadmap of upcoming features.


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 6:10:40 pm

    [Mathieu Ghekiere] "The only thing I miss when reading that press release is how Apple doesn't communicate like that, with a roadmap of upcoming features.
    "


    Users are a lot more forgiving of flaws when there is communication.

    Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 8:28:34 pm

    [Oliver Peters] "Users are a lot more forgiving of flaws when there is communication."

    Although Apple's customers are the most forgiving that have ever strode the earth, no?


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 8:37:51 pm

    [Tim Wilson] "Although Apple's customers are the most forgiving that have ever strode the earth, no?
    "


    Most forgiving or most rationalizing? ;)


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 8:57:20 pm

    [Andrew Kimery] "Most forgiving or most rationalizing? ;)"

    Absolutely.

    I'm not ACTUALLY happy editing in X. I just rationalize that what I'm feeling is happy.

    Cuz I couldn't actually know what my own feelings are. Right?

    I write this laughing because two hours ago I got a last minute email from an agency client making an after lunch presentation of a rough cut of my latest edit to their big clients - and the agency guy was obsessing about whether the background noise in one field scene was a little too loud. So I opened it in X, and having no time to open up the audio for EQ customization, I just (for the first time ever!) tried the analysis driven "auto background noise reduction" in X. Slid the little slider while listening to the track - and DAMMED if it didn't actually lower the noise floor VERY acceptably!

    Problem solved in :30 seconds. New Vimeo upload took another minute - and with an "I fixed it" email, the client in CA can head to the presentation room now obsessively worrying about something else.

    No damn reason to be happy about stuff like this, is there?

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 9:36:07 pm
    Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Sep 8, 2015 at 9:38:23 pm

    [Bill Davis] "No damn reason to be happy about stuff like this, is there?"

    I don't think anyone has ever questioned your happiness with X though my joke was about the 'Apple Faithful' in general (not anything specific to editing or even software).

    There is a long history of Apple releasing products without certain features, then the Apple Faithful mount a vocal campaign about how said features are unneeded. Apple later releases a revision which now includes the previously missing features, and the Apple Faithful trumpet the importance of those features and how no one has ever done them better than Apple. Wash, rinse, repeat. I've amassed my own pile of Apple gear over the last 15yrs or so but there are most certainly times where people are saying how awesome the butt-nekkid emperor's new clothes are.


    update for clarity.


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    David Roth Weiss
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 9:42:17 pm

    [Andrew Kimery] "Wash, rinse, repeat."

    Bingo!!! For some reason those who drink the Koolaide tend to become rather forgetful - it's kind of like the date rape drug. Just beware when that guy you know from the forums offers to buy you a drink at NAB.

    David Roth Weiss
    Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
    David Weiss Productions
    Los Angeles


    David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 10:24:36 pm

    It's not like Apple is selling snake oil. They have some very good hardware, very good software and continue to set the standard for a cohesive ecosystem/gilded cage (depending on your POV) but some people just get dang near religious about it. And it's interesting to see how it bleeds into the mainstream (people that don't keep an eye on tech as a hobby). For example, when the Apple Watch launched I heard many people talk about it like Apple had invented the smart watch even though smart watches had already been around for a few years. The mindshare Apple has is off the charts.


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:30:44 am
    Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 9, 2015 at 2:02:22 am

    >[Andrew Kimery] "Wash, rinse, repeat."

    >Bingo!!! For some reason those who drink the Koolaide tend to become rather forgetful - it's kind of >like the date rape drug. Just beware when that guy you know from the forums offers to buy you a >drink at NAB.

    >David Roth Weiss
    >Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
    >David Weiss Productions
    >Los Angeles





    Wow. I do believe my peeps and I in the Apple Fan Club have just been compared to serial rapists.




    Do you realize that if you can just attribute to me a clear pro-Nazi reference - and post something about my hating cats - you'll have completed the internet scorn trifecta?

    Impressive work. Really.

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 4:38:01 am

    [Bill Davis] "Wow. I do believe my peeps and I in the Apple Fan Club have just been compared to serial rapists."

    I can't speak for David but I think you've been compared to the ones receiving the spiked drinks not the ones doling them out (i.e. drinking Apple's Kool-aid makes you forget Apple's missteps). I guess you could be drinking the Kool-aid and serving it, but that doesn't seem like a good plan because eventually you'd forgot what you were doing and just wonder off leaving a bunch of unserved Kool-aid. What do the kids say on the street? Don't get high on your own supply? The current Kool-aid analogy is a bit messy though...

    Anyone else surprised the Kool-aid brand was able to survive Jonestown (especially since the negative connotation of 'drinking the Kool-aid' is still around to this day?


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    Herb Sevush
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 1:25:40 pm

    [Andrew Kimery] "I can't speak for David but I think you've been compared to the ones receiving the spiked drinks not the ones doling them out"

    I don't think that matters. I think that we should all agree that the use of "nazis" "slavery" and "sexual predators" as metaphors make the author sound like a dick, no matter how brilliant the analogy and no matter how tempting the target. Best not to go there, even if it means using yet another car analogy. And I say that as someone who has been as "dickish" as any.

    Herb Sevush
    Zebra Productions
    ---------------------------
    nothin' attached to nothin'
    "Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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    Andrew Kimery
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 3:05:55 pm

    [Herb Sevush] "I don't think that matters. I think that we should all agree that the use of "nazis" "slavery" and "sexual predators" as metaphors make the author sound like a dick, no matter how brilliant the analogy and no matter how tempting the target. Best not to go there, even if it means using yet another car analogy. And I say that as someone who has been as "dickish" as any.
    "


    Sounds reasonable, Herb.


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    David Roth Weiss
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 8, 2015 at 8:45:08 pm

    [Tim Wilson] "Although Apple's customers are the most forgiving that have ever strode the earth, no?"

    Touche'!!!

    But, I thought Tim Cook said he was gonna end the days of "doubling down" on secrecy???

    David Roth Weiss
    Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
    David Weiss Productions
    Los Angeles


    David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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    Alex Gollner
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 11:17:22 am

    I hardly come to the COW forums. Pity how an interesting post from someone who considers both sides of a debate turns into a back and forth I remember from four years ago.

    Any suggestions as to what would be useful about regularly visiting this forum?

    What do you get out of it?

    ___________________________________________________
    Alexandre Gollner,
    Editor, Zone 2-North West, London

    alex4d on twitter, facebook, .wordpress.com & .com


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    Walter Soyka
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 12:21:49 pm

    [Alex Gollner] "I hardly come to the COW forums. Pity how an interesting post from someone who considers both sides of a debate turns into a back and forth I remember from four years ago."

    I think that part of this thread is atypically vitriolic and historical.


    [Alex Gollner] "Any suggestions as to what would be useful about regularly visiting this forum? What do you get out of it?"

    I like hearing about how other people are working, and I like that many posters here use different (and often multiple) tools.

    This forum has the best collection of off-topic posts anywhere, and an on-topic conversation can swing almost anywhere. The unnecessary posts in this thread aside, I find it's often the noise that's the signal here.

    Walter Soyka
    Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
    Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
    @keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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    Herb Sevush
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 2:08:16 pm

    [Walter Soyka] " I find it's often the noise that's the signal here."

    Lovely line.

    Herb Sevush
    Zebra Productions
    ---------------------------
    nothin' attached to nothin'
    "Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 3:07:41 pm

    Clearly the two Gallaghers were separated at birth







    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 3:56:43 pm

    [Herb Sevush] "I think that we should all agree that the use of "nazis" "slavery" and "sexual predators" as metaphors make the author sound like a dick...."

    We once had "nazi" in our filtered words list for that very reason. It's basically the conversational nuclear option. You really can't go anywhere from there except "Am not!" so, by definition, it's noise, rather than signal. Thanks for the reminder.



    [Herb Sevush] "And I say that as someone who has been as "dickish" as any."

    Likewise. :-) But while there's a fine line between "dickish" and DICK, there is a line nonetheless.


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 4:48:33 pm

    Why was the premis of "Fight Club" so compelling? Because secretly we all have a guilty taste for conflict that flirts with the boundaries of accepted behavior.

    And some of us just like to argue. Period. I've met many of the people here IRL and they all know that in person I'm pretty non-confrontational and mild mannered.

    But I'm also opinionated and LOVE a good debate. Heck I even relish a BAD debate if there are even a few interesting points scattered around.

    Reminds me of high stress sets I've been on where there's tons of conflict and yelling. And oddly, out of that has come some really outstanding work. Yes, I've also been on smiley sets where great work also gets generated so it's not causal.

    But I do suspect that conflict is a big part of why this forum is so popular. And I'm happy to play.

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Steve Connor
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 4:57:03 pm







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    Oliver Peters
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 9, 2015 at 5:12:21 pm

    And for those who wanted a "send to" function (sort of) ;-)

    http://www.redgiant.com/automatic-duck/

    - Oliver

    Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
    Orlando, FL
    http://www.oliverpeters.com


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    Jim Wiseman
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 5:29:08 am

    I got nailed for quite innocently using the word "football" a few days ago. Then I saw it another recent post somewhere else. Maybe I'll put asterisks on the ends of it next time it seems pertinent. How about the dinner table no-no's, Politics and Religion?

    Jim Wiseman
    Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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    Tim Wilson
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 6:26:22 am

    [Jim Wiseman] "I got nailed for quite innocently using the word "f***ball" a few days ago. "

    This particular F word has become the spammiest of spam words in the 20 year history of our online community, perhaps by an order of magnitude over previous winners.

    Think about how many ads you see for fantasy sports.

    Then add the number of you antiestablishment hipsters and skinfkints, hipster or nay, who want to watch the nfl without paying for cable, satellite, or for a full season online subscription.

    Then add college bowl games.

    Then add the hundreds of f***ball leagues in the nearly 200 nations and independent territories whose citizens frequent Creative COW...

    ...multiplied by the number malfeasants looking for a new excuse to pry away your credit card, and, even more often, your very identity.

    And where better to prey than among a bunch of cranky old bastards likely to have credit cards, and who'd clearly rather have arguments than relations -- surmised by myself by the spam for male enhancement having nearly altogether vanished from our servers -- and lo and behold, a site with the demography and global reach of ours is among the most high-value targets for f***ball spam anywhere on the Internet.

    So, yes, with sports spam having exploded beyond imagining, we have deployed a vast yet nimble array of countermeasures that have been quite effective in catching thousands of incursions daily.

    (I don't often talk about the scale of the COW's hoofprint, but in the process of serving 30TB of data daily, plus mailing opt-in subscriptions for newsletters, threads, etc. to over 300,000 members, the door is open wide and long enough for a meaningful amount of detritus to require our attention.)

    The last line of defense is for a member of our team to apply their own balls of eyes to the handful of f***ball-related posts that make their way through our defenses.

    While we certainly apologize for any inconvenience, I assure you that any less diligence on our part would be far more annoying than our current approach.

    Albeit perhaps less annoying than another explainy post from me.


    Yr pal,
    Timmy


    Tim Wilson
    Editor-in-Chief
    Creative COW


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    Jim Wiseman
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 7:38:24 am

    Thanks, Tim. At least I was not permanently nuked, though the warning is quite effective.

    Jim Wiseman
    Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD, Multiple OWC Thunderbay 4 TB2 and eSATA QX2 RAID 5 HD systems


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    Bill Davis
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 13, 2015 at 4:46:20 pm

    And what are all those new "f-word" spam weasels peddling?
    Oh yeah. Subscriptions.
    (Couldn't resist! ; )

    Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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    Aindreas Gallagher
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 12:19:33 am

    this thread may have gone haywire - but we did just get the above youtube vid. miiinted.

    http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 6:19:35 am

    Here here to 10, 11, 12 especially.

    Really restrictive when versioning not being able to see them both at the same time.


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    James Ewart
    Re: I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
    on Sep 10, 2015 at 6:28:44 am

    Reveal clip in Timeline please


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