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Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?

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Oliver Peters
Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 18, 2015 at 11:37:43 pm

So, to add a bit more to the mix, I ran a similar speed comparison between Motion and After Effects CC 2015. Same machine as here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/83187

ProResHQ 1080p/23.98 Alexa camera files
1080p/23.98 composition 1 min. long

I placed six clips back to back and scaled these to 120%.
On top of this, I place 4 PIP clips for the full 1 min. All 4 clips scaled to 25% and rotated.
All clips had a native Levels and Hue/Saturation filter to color correct.
Therefore, the AE comp and Motion comp were as close as possible.
Rendered out to ProRes.

Motion :29
AE with cached frames before render :41
AE w/o cached buffer - 5:19


Plus Motion was able to run this comp in real-time. AE played it (before it was buffered) at about 4-10fps. In reality, when you work on an AE job, a lot of the composition timeline will be buffered because playing through with a spacebar tap automatically caches frames for real-time playback the next time. So, in the real-world, AE's render for a comp would be somewhere in between the two numbers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 18, 2015 at 11:51:49 pm

Great comparison.

It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful.

A basic keying job today in 1080p ProRes was taking me between 8-13 minutes to render out for sections that were between 15s and 1m long. Effects used were keylight, selective colour, and colour correction. I'm not saying keying is simple but the amount of time it was taking me to do ram previews and renders on a new Mac Pro system with max ram and d700s was crazy.

I really should give motion a lot more time and effort to learn.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 12:06:09 am

[Tom Sefton] "I really should give motion a lot more time and effort to learn."

Motion is a considerably faster renderer and uses more real-time functionality. However, in actual projects, I still find the AE workflow much faster. Once you choke the real-time power of Motion, then AE's adaptive resolution throttle ends up being a lot more fluid in how you work through the timeline/composition. So there are pros and cons with each tool.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 8:31:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Motion is a considerably faster renderer and uses more real-time functionality. However, in actual projects, I still find the AE workflow much faster."

Super yes. The few times I've used motion in production - even pre-X motion on older tower systems - when it can be real time, it generally blew me away? But once you exceed the realtime game it provides, things do bog down pretty harsh. I reckon the AE team are unquestionably getting their hands dirty now, even down to messing with the ram preview tabernacle (although that whole space bar play reengineering feels tangential to me) but AE's issue is that the vast majority of their users are going to blow that Motion style light use realtime performance to pieces on a daily basis. And then they're back where they were.
So almost why burn engineering to dangle it.

I don't know that there is a magic bullet to be had for radically altered AE performance, given adobe are dropping large research dimes like it's going out of style to cement the cloud offering. Mind you that said - has anyone tried MB Looks 3 on a recent stacked iMac i7? MB looks renders like a complete maniac now. Part of me wonders if they've dropped the fidelity of the calculations. That said it's Stu Maschwitz, so you'd think no. But I've never seen software do a sudden render sprint like V3 MB looks. I was throwing modified blockbuster on four shot split screens and premiere basically didn't care. Random aside - but It's a truly kickass MB looks release.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 9:53:29 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Super yes. The few times I've used motion in production - even pre-X motion on older tower systems - when it can be real time, it generally blew me away?"

Part of the issue is that AE really doesn't use the GPU very much for its standard effects and transforms.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 10:46:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] " AE really doesn't use the GPU very much for its standard effects and transforms"

yes but the thing is that's kind of flies in the pond. They attempted enacting specific GPU (I think) for some 3D, transforms and layer modes around CS 5 to 5.5.

It broadly turned into a mess and they effectively withdrew it? AE's issue is that it confronts limitless use cases all the time every day. People generally forget this but on a thirty second spot with jam, AE improved radically between V7 (that's native AE numbering with the curved edges in the GUI) and V8-9.

I think AE has photoshop issues. In that they're both near civil service software. The fact that AE currently is telling you to forget you ever saw the multiprocessing settings while they go into the mines with pick axes is about as daring as a new subscription service could hope to be. That honestly bought a CC renewal from me. That is highly risque in a world of hardware leveraged free software.

AE in particular has mutual trust written all over it. I'm myself inclined to leave the engineers work away for eighteen months easy. let them blast away at the base of it. Some of the OSX metal plug-in experiments looked mad.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 12:13:24 am

[Tom Sefton] "Great comparison.

It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful.

A basic keying job today in 1080p ProRes was taking me between 8-13 minutes to render out for sections that were between 15s and 1m long. Effects used were keylight, selective colour, and colour correction. I'm not saying keying is simple but the amount of time it was taking me to do ram previews and renders on a new Mac Pro system with max ram and d700s was crazy.

I really should give motion a lot more time and effort to learn.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk"


To be fair, AE's render engine is ancient

[Tom Sefton] "Great comparison.

It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful.

A basic keying job today in 1080p ProRes was taking me between 8-13 minutes to render out for sections that were between 15s and 1m long. Effects used were keylight, selective colour, and colour correction. I'm not saying keying is simple but the amount of time it was taking me to do ram previews and renders on a new Mac Pro system with max ram and d700s was crazy.

I really should give motion a lot more time and effort to learn.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk"


To be fair, AE's render engine is ancient. Have you considered other applications for keying tasks? Maybe Mamba FX or Hitfilm would be faster. If you already have Motion, PixelConduit (which is free) or Simon's Hawaiki Keyer might also be worth trying.

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 3:42:45 pm

[Tom Sefton] "It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful. "

[Shawn Miller] "To be fair, AE's render engine is ancient"

It's worth pointing out that in Ae CC 2015, the renderer has (finally) been separated from the UI. It's a big engineering effort, and I think that even though there's still a way to go, this is the most important work that's been done in Ae since 64-bit in CS5.

From Adobe's After Effects "Region of Interest" blog:

"When we asked you, our customers, a year ago what you’d like us to focus on in After Effects, the response was enthusiastic and nearly unanimous: You wanted us to focus on making After Effects respond more quickly and smoothly as you carried out your creative work. We listened. The great majority of the After Effects team has been hard at work for the past year on a fundamental re-architecture of the application that lays the groundwork for performance improvements of many kinds, and this major update that we will be releasing soon bears the first fruits of this effort."

http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2015/04/after-effects-cc-spring-2015-up...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 4:17:24 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Aug 19, 2015 at 4:40:00 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Tom Sefton] "It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful. "

[Shawn Miller] "To be fair, AE's render engine is ancient"

It's worth pointing out that in Ae CC 2015, the renderer has (finally) been separated from the UI. It's a big engineering effort, and I think that even though there's still a way to go, this is the most important work that's been done in Ae since 64-bit in CS5"


I agree, Walter. Adobe seems to have taken a very good first step towards improving playback, and I expect that we'll see even more improvements down the line. Honestly though, the AE renderer is plenty fast enough for me... and I'm talking about final renders here. These days, anything faster than four minutes per frame seems speedy. :-)

Shawn



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Thomas Frank
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 3:59:14 am

[Tom Sefton] "It baffles me that we still have nowhere even close to realtime playback in Ae for some things that seem very simple. Even dropping resolution to 1/2 or even 1/4 often doesn't change things enough to make it useful. "

It baffles me we still have nowhere the Tools as what After Effects offers in Motion.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 20, 2015 at 10:22:25 am

[Thomas Frank] "It baffles me we still have nowhere the Tools as what After Effects offers in Motion."

Never mind that it caters to an entirely difference audience, even though there certainly is a lot of overlap. With maybe only a few percent (even of AE users) needing specialty tools such as the Puppet Tool et al. Not too sure what is "baffling" about a (one time) $50 app not being feature-sync with another that costs that per month either.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 8:38:12 am
Last Edited By Mathieu Ghekiere on Aug 19, 2015 at 8:39:26 am



I'm not an After Effects user, but there seems to be some hope for After Effects OSX users, with the demo that Adobe gave on Metal on WWDC.
The speed gains they showed with Metal on Illustrator and After Effects were very impressive.


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David Mathis
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 1:06:35 pm

I hope Fusion can kick some butt, still waiting for it to come out.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 4:31:51 pm

[David Mathis] "I hope Fusion can kick some butt, still waiting for it to come out."

I'm curious David, why Fusion in particular. What about it catches your attention? Of the node based alternatives on the Mac platform, I've used MambaFX and PixelConduit (just Conduit back in the day), and they are both quite good - plus, they're available right now. :-)

Shawn



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David Mathis
Re: Fast - why leave AE and Motion out of the fun?
on Aug 19, 2015 at 4:40:13 pm

I guess it is something about the name, plus it just looks cool. I also have Resolve on my system.

The magnetic timeline, it's magnetic-o-matic!



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