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Keyflow Pro or Not...

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Robin S. Kurz
Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 6, 2015 at 11:07:41 am

This looks amazingly interesting, with an unprecedented abundance of features that I have been looking for in a MAM since... ever: http://www.keyflowpro.com

Another simple but imho impressive demo:






I would LOVE to hear from anyone that dared take the plunge as to how it works for you. Since it does not yet have RED support or a server client, it's a no-go for me at the moment, but would love to know how it is beyond that, so I know if I should keep an eye on it for the future (which I probably will either way :P). Cheers!

- RK

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Petros Kolyvas
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 6, 2015 at 2:12:33 pm

Too bad there's no demo...

One thing that I couldn't quite figure out is if it could import Final Cut's own Libraries; lots of talk of exporting timelines, but what about shops that already have libraries with extensive keywording that want to import/export those assets and keywords to a shared asset library?

Maybe I'm just being myopic... product looks interesting regardless.

--
There is no intuitive interface, not even the nipple. It's all learned. - Bruce Ediger


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 6, 2015 at 2:22:06 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Aug 6, 2015 at 2:23:33 pm

[Petros Kolyvas] "One thing that I couldn't quite figure out is if it could import Final Cut's own Libraries"

As with any and every other MAM I know of, that is done via XML, yes. Only in this case via FCPXML, which very few do and is obviously a huge advantage.

- RK

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John Davidson
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 6, 2015 at 2:12:54 pm

It's good but not quite right yet.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 1:53:49 pm

Actually, since FCP X supports the import of a large variety of camera files - including ArriRaw using Glue-Tools, Red with the Red workflow installer, and of course most small camera files, why not just use FCP X as a MAM.
Meaning, on a separate workstation with a large drive connected, one imports files, keywords them sorts them in events and stores them in a separate library. No files are copied to the library, but proxies are made for all. If one wants to save space, the one can make the proxies as SD files.

That way, the FCP X Library or Libraries *are* the MAM and can be transported around in drives. Anytime you need to search files you can search them by keyword. And the bonus is that FCP X is an editing system so one can even edit a few together, or import a project and audition files from this 'stock' library. Or even composite them if needed, or colour correct them, something no other MAM can do.

Just thinking aloud after seeing the KeyFlow Pro demo.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 3:00:37 pm

I think you're overlooking a huge portion of the feature set of KFP (or any other MAM for that matter). There are a lot of features of KFP that you couldn't possibly cover with FCP X by itself as described.


[Neil Sadwelkar] "and can be transported around in drives."

That being one of the many and biggest aspects i.e. advantages to using a real MAM. Not having to do that.

- RK

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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 4:43:00 pm

It doesn't support Camera Archives. While it'll see the archive in won't see the contents.

Given that, for me, Camera Archives are Camera Masters, that's a serious problem.

It's not clear at all if it'll handle camera formats in which folder structure must be maintained in order for the metadata to be read properly. One example might be XDCAM EX recorded on Fat32 formatted SxS cards. Which, for me, the integrity is maintained through the use of Camera Archives.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 4:53:23 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It doesn't support Camera Archives."

Yes, we've talked about that elsewhere. For em it's definitely something that should to be addressed, too. Even (or especially?) if that means that they the only MAM that offers that.

- RK

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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11:32 pm

Otherwise I'd have to abandon using Camera Archives and pull apart all the "packages" I have.

There's something incongruous to me about Apple implementing a feature that's fundamentally not supported in MAM software (I don't think this is specific to KeyFlow Pro). It's almost as if the User Guide should carry a warning about Camera Archives and MAM. One can dig oneself into a very deep hole with it.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 6:56:40 pm

Sorry, but I don't see how it's in any way Apple's responsibility to work their development around the abilities of others. Good thing they don't, too. That's like getting mad at RED for using their own codec that no one understands out of the box either.

In fact I don't see why MAMs shouldn't be able to access/read FCP archives, since to anyone other than FCP X archives are JUST FOLDERS. Try moving one to any Mac or PC without FCP installed and see what you get. The MAMs simply need to figure out the basic (non-proprietary) structure. It's no brain surgery or big secret. Nor did Apple come up with the whole thing to begin with.

- RK

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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 7, 2015 at 7:25:25 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Aug 7, 2015 at 8:23:40 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Sorry, but I don't see how it's in any way Apple's responsibility to work their development around the abilities of others."

While some features (most features) can be entirely internal, outside of FCPXML use, I think an archival feature should be accessible to other software.

I'm not sure it's Apple's responsibility but if you have "two sides' each ignorant of the other, it is not good for the end user. Saying it's no one's responsibility doesn't solve the problem.

So it's my fault that I have four years of Camera Archives because Camera Archives seemed like a sensible way to back up Camera Master files ensuring their integrity?

I'll add that even FCPX can't read any of my BMPCC camera archive masters predating about May 2014. At some point FCPX stopped reading them, possibly through a change in FCPX. That was partially fixed in a recent FCPX update as I can now read my current BMPCC archives going back to May 2014.

Given these archives are simply ProRes files with FCPX's added .plist, it would seem Apple changed something. BTW this has only impacted archives from BMPCC (possibly other BMD cameras?) but not my other camera archives.

If Apple can change something that impacts the ability to read its own archives that can certainly pose a probably for any MAM attempting compatibility.

[Robin S. Kurz] "In fact I don't see why MAMs shouldn't be able to access/read FCP archives,"

I'd agree but given the issues I had with BMPCC I don't doubt there could be some potential pitfalls attempted compatibility. Perhaps this is why MAMs don't attempt this. Perhaps FPCX Camera Archives is a proprietary can of worms.

So is this Apple's fault? Is it the fault of MAMs for choosing not to go there. Is it my fault for Foolishly believe FCPX Camera Archives were an intended feature that would be useful?

Regardless of blame I have years of Camera Archives and if it means I have do "undo" or avoid and FCPX feature for outside world compatibility there's a very serious problem with this picture.

Personally if the "recommendation" is to avoid using FCPX Camera Archives then I'd have to say that Apple "walked me into a problem." If it's a hinderance to MAM compatibility then perhaps the feature should be pulled or, there should be a recommendation against using it.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 12, 2015 at 11:04:26 am

[Craig Seeman] "I think an archival feature should be accessible to other software."

How is it not? I hate repeating myself, but again: it is nothing more than a folder containing a 1:1 copy of whatever medium. There is zero special sauce involved i.e. anything keeping anyone from accessing it. They're not .DMGs or the likes. Not even close!


[Craig Seeman] "So it's my fault that I have four years of Camera Archives because Camera Archives seemed like a sensible way to back up Camera Master files ensuring their integrity?"

That's of course rather jejune. Or should I ask if it's Apple fault that you want to use a MAM that isn't able to read completely open and non-proprietary data in return? In which case I guess, by that logic, it's also their fault that e.g. PPro (still) can't parse an FCPXML file? Yet another completely open format.


[Craig Seeman] "I'll add that even FCPX can't read any of my BMPCC camera archive masters predating about May 2014."

But then you could always simply open the "folder" and import everything manually as any other media that you have copied from a camera to wherever, without any issues whatsoever. On the other hand I have no issues opening archives even from FCP 10.0 and there were no changes made to its "format"... which isn't even one to begin with. Delete the .fcarch suffix and bingo... a folder like any other! I'd even venture to say, that that would be the first logical step to getting any MAM to read it, no? Unless of course it can't read folders either.


[Craig Seeman] "Perhaps this is why MAMs don't attempt this."

Nope. It's simply because they don't recognize the suffix! Simply teach it that ".fcarch" means "folder"... BINGO.


[Craig Seeman] "Perhaps FPCX Camera Archives is a proprietary can of worms."

That being where you're sorely mistaken, as I've demonstrated above.


[Craig Seeman] "Is it my fault for Foolishly believe FCPX Camera Archives were an intended feature that would be useful?"

No. Just your fault that you don't understand what a FCP X archive in fact IS and that you're reading some evil magic into it that doesn't exist. Then vehemently pointing fingers based on mere assumptions, speculation and conjecture.

Good thing I'm here to save you from your misconceptions! :D

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 12, 2015 at 8:04:27 pm

If there's a MAM that can read Apple's Camera Archives please do mention it.

FCPXML is widely supported even though there may be exceptions. On the other hand Camera Archives, as simple as the folder structure is, apparently isn't.

[Robin S. Kurz] "But then you could always simply open the "folder" and import everything manually as any other media that you have copied from a camera to wherever, without any issues whatsoever"

Except the time it would take to do that for scores if not hundreds of Camera Archives. That FCPX can't read its own Camera Archives from Blackmagic Camera preceding a certain date is a serous concern. If FCPX can have such issues then certainly that may be a problem MAMs don't want to deal with.


[Robin S. Kurz] "Nope. It's simply because they don't recognize the suffix! Simply teach it that ".fcarch" means "folder"... BINGO."

If it were that simple then why the issue with FCPX and the early BMPCC Camera Archives. The Archives contain a .plist file and apparently reading that isn't so simple... short of ignoring it.

[Robin S. Kurz] "[Craig Seeman] "Perhaps FPCX Camera Archives is a proprietary can of worms."

That being where you're sorely mistaken, as I've demonstrated above.
"


Non Proprietary then why can't FCPX read its own archives under circumstances noted previously. The .plist in the archive is likely the issue and FCPX can have problems with it.

[Robin S. Kurz] "No. Just your fault that you don't understand what a FCP X archive in fact IS "

What it IS is something that FCPX can have problems reading in some cases and MAMx may not read as well.

If it were so simple....
It isn't unless you think MAM developers have motives



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 13, 2015 at 5:05:51 pm

Well, I'm not sure which part of "a camera archive is the exact same thing as if you were to simply drag the contents of a card to a random folder in the Finder, only with a suffix" you're not getting your head around, but the conversation has clearly become nonsensically circular.

A folder is a folder is a folder. Suffix (and how it's interpreted by any given app) or not. And the issue with the BMPCC was in fact an error that THE CAMERA was writing into the metadata file and how FCP was reading it. Fixed with a flash update for the camera... but never mind. It had absolutely nothing to do with a "changed format" of the archives... because there is no such thing. Unless of course you're otherwise aware of different types of folders on your system that I've never heard of. But I'm sure it's still somehow Apple's fault. Easy target, I know.

So if for you saying "Apple needs to fix this" isn't the exact same as saying "RED needs to fix that MAM xyz can't ingest their material" (which is in fact the case with KFP btw), well, then I guess there's little to talk about. Because I do and find it to be a rather ludicrous notion.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 13, 2015 at 6:27:44 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Well, I'm not sure which part of "a camera archive is the exact same thing as if you were to simply drag the contents of a card to a random folder in the Finder, only with a suffix" you're not getting your head around, but the conversation has clearly become nonsensically circular. "

The Archive contains a .plist that is written by FCPX.

[Robin S. Kurz] "And the issue with the BMPCC was in fact an error that THE CAMERA was writing into the metadata file and how FCP was reading it. "

The fix was retroactive. There's nothing in a BMPCC firmware update that would impact archives created the previous year. A change in approximately May 2015 suddenly made my Camera Archives going back to 2014 readable in FCPX.

You're assume only the suffix of the folder is at issue. Given the issues FCPX had reading it's own archives, one can't assume the suffix will be the only problem. Of course the MAM can ignore the .plist file. FCPX certainly needs that info to read its own Archives properly so I wouldn't make such assumption.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 13, 2015 at 5:14:10 pm

And if in fact some archives are causing problems, then the only constructive thing to do is to report it to Apple and even send them one. The thing that I in fact did when the last problem with the PCC cropped up, and they worked with BMD to fix it.

- RK

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Craig Seeman
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 13, 2015 at 6:30:42 pm

I reported it as well. I reported the extent of the fix too. It's still not working for Archives created around June 2014 and earlier.



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Thomas Frank
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 17, 2015 at 8:13:08 am

Is anybody using this?

What is the best practice to share out media, does the media stay on one location (Shared drive) and is just linked or does it copy the each Mac when being used?

I don't see no value if you have to have it copied on each Mac.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Keyflow Pro or Not...
on Aug 20, 2015 at 8:57:10 am

[Thomas Frank] "I don't see no value if you have to have it copied on each Mac."

Simply watch the above demo (or any of the other various demos). All the answers are in there.

Spoiler: yes, you can copy, browse etc. between KFP clients. Be it local or even remote.

- RK

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Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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