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Scott Witthaus
OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 6:52:00 pm

http://www.adobe.com/news-room/pressreleases/201506/061615AdobeUnveilsMiles...

sadly nothing about "fixing" the interfaces....

;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 7:04:16 pm

There's a lot of cool stuff in this release, including (in my opinion) the most important Ae update since CS5 took the application 64-bit.

In this release of Ae, the render thread is separated from the UI thread, which improves interactivity immediately and is the first necessary step toward modernizing the application and getting the improved overall performance that everyone here has rightly criticized Ae for not having.

[Scott Witthaus] "sadly nothing about "fixing" the interfaces...."

Let's discuss! From https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/81971:

[Scott Witthaus] "Crazy small icons, timeline view feels ancient, please give me a keyboard short cut for in and out points when adding video...the list goes on."

Personally, I want the icons small. There's a lot of stuff I want access to all at the same time in Ae, so the bigger the icons are, the more screen real estate they take away from the viewer, the timeline, the ECP, etc.

I don't know what "timeline feels ancient" means. Can you elaborate?

You can set in and out points for video in the viewer the same way you set in and out points for a layer in the timeline: Alt+[ and Alt+] (Alt plus square brackets).

What's the rest of the list?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jim Wiseman
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 7:08:00 pm

Looks pretty ho-hum. Illustrator is faster. My everyday app.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 7:16:52 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Looks pretty ho-hum. Illustrator is faster. My everyday app."

Actually, I do use Ps and Il quite a bit, and I think some of what you see in these apps are the kind of "boring" updates that make a big difference for everyday users, and that require a lot of engineering effort to bring about in a mature application without blowing up everyone's workflow.

Here's more detail on what's in these releases for this forum's everyday apps:

After Effects:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2015/04/after-effects-cc-spring-2015-up...

Premiere Pro:
http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2015/04/premiere-pro-next-colorful.html
http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2015/06/premiere-pro-cc-2015.html

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 7:36:59 pm

Am I correct that regarding Premiere Pro only, this is the delivery of the improvements they announced at NAB? Nothing beyond that? Or am I missing things?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 8:04:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "Am I correct that regarding Premiere Pro only, this is the delivery of the improvements they announced at NAB? Nothing beyond that? Or am I missing things?"

The first of the Pr links I listed above is about what was announced at NAB. The second link includes new details and features since the NAB preview.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 8:48:55 pm

I've posted a version of this on the PPro forum but I find the 2015 update very underwhelming. The 2 big items are the Lumetri Color Space and the Morph effect. Nothing wrong with the LCS but I already use Colorista and MB Looks and other than the ability to drop in some LUT presets there's nothing I don't already have, and much would be missing if I dropped my plug-ins. The Morph effect can be helpful in certain limited situations, but right now I'm having quicktime gamma issues with it (hopefully user error.) What else is there - workplace tab keys that are useless if you have a 2 screen setup, a 2D character animator function that I don't see me ever even looking at, some small keyboard shortcut revisions and an export function that let's you trim or expand the length of your sequence - which might be helpful if I were racing to make air, but since I'm not I prefer to adjust my length by adjusting the cut.

PPro has had major revisions in the last few years, so I'm OK with nothing much going on this year, but let's face it, nothing much is going on.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 9:41:29 pm

[Herb Sevush] ". Nothing wrong with the LCS but I already use Colorista and MB Looks and other than the ability to drop in some LUT presets there's nothing I don't already have,"

How is the performance of LCS compared to Colorista? Colorista has always been a performance hog for me so if LCS can do the same things I usually Colorista for (which is nothing fancy) but with less of a performance hit I'll probably shelve Colorista again.


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Steve Connor
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 6:58:02 am

[Andrew Kimery] "How is the performance of LCS compared to Colorista? Colorista has always been a performance hog for me so if LCS can do the same things I usually Colorista for (which is nothing fancy) but with less of a performance hit I'll probably shelve Colorista again."

LCS is very fast on my system, I don't have Colorista so can't compare, but I'm very impressed with LCS


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:24:39 am

[Steve Connor] "LCS is very fast on my system, I don't have Colorista so can't compare, but I'm very impressed with LCS"

There's good to hear as Colorista (like all Red Giant plugins I've used) is the opposite of fast. ;)


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 2:15:24 am

[Andrew Kimery] "There's good to hear as Colorista (like all Red Giant plugins I've used) is the opposite of fast"

All too true, however what's even slower than Colorista's keyer is the LCS having no keyer at all. No keyer, no secondaries, no eyedropper, no thank you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:37:34 am

[Herb Sevush] "All too true, however what's even slower than Colorista's keyer is the LCS having no keyer at all. No keyer, no secondaries, no eyedropper, no thank you."

Also good to know. Sometimes a primary is all I need though. Looking forward to playing with things once my current gig wraps up.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:49:23 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Herb Sevush] "All too true, however what's even slower than Colorista's keyer is the LCS having no keyer at all. No keyer, no secondaries, no eyedropper, no thank you."

Also good to know. Sometimes a primary is all I need though. Looking forward to playing with things once my current gig wraps up."


Not having secondary control isn't entirely correct. Look at the color wheel in this image. The Hue/Sat wheel let's you pull specific colors in a very non-symmetrical manner. This is way cleaner than an HSL keyer. I've been doing a lot of Resolve work lately. The more I use it, the less I use qualifying keys, because there are other, cleaner and better tools to accomplish the same results. Same here. It's also the same reason Color Finale opted for vector controls instead of HSL keying.



- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:46:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Not having secondary control isn't entirely correct. Look at the color wheel in this image. The Hue/Sat wheel let's you pull specific colors in a very non-symmetrical manner. This is way cleaner than an HSL keyer. I've been doing a lot of Resolve work lately."

I'm not close to your proficiency in color grading, so I'll take your word for it, but I have to tell you I don't see how it can be as fast as using a selector to identify the HSL you want to effect as a starting point.

What if I want to make this change only inside a certain area of a shot, while still making a Global change to the entirety of the clip, which is quite common for me. In Colorista I can isolate this effect with an internal mask - with the LCS I can mask the entire effect, but not one part of the effect.

I'm not saying the LCS isn't a good tool to have, I'm saying that for me, at this point, I'm still going to want Colorista in my tool kit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 1:16:28 pm

[Herb Sevush] "What if I want to make this change only inside a certain area of a shot, while still making a Global change to the entirety of the clip, which is quite common for me. In Colorista I can isolate this effect with an internal mask - with the LCS I can mask the entire effect, but not one part of the effect."

The Lumetri Hue/Sat wheel works the same as the HSL wheels in Colorista. A key can be useful, but often does not yield clean results, because color can rarely be so cleanly isolated without keying or color contamination artifacts. For example, if I want to lower the saturation of a bright red dress, I can do that just as easily with the HSL wheels as with a key, but often the key edges aren't as clean as one would like.

BTW, I am comparing Colorista III, which no longer includes internal masking. Therefore, you can only mask the whole filter - so the same with Colorista III as with Lumetri.

Also I notice the playback performance is a lot less taxing with the Lumetri effect than with Colorista III.

However, the issue is more important for users who do not own third-party plug-in effects. Lumetri gives them an extremely powerful tool without spending extra cash. I, for one, find this a great step forward, as I've always disliked the built-in Premiere Pro correctors up until now.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:09:36 pm
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:12:49 pm

[Oliver Peters] " A key can be useful, but often does not yield clean results, because color can rarely be so cleanly isolated without keying or color contamination artifacts. For example, if I want to lower the saturation of a bright red dress, I can do that just as easily with the HSL wheels as with a key, but often the key edges aren't as clean as one would like."

Agree, but as always, the devil is in the details. In my case I'm dealing with cooking food and often I'll need to brighten a stew - brown meat, orange carrots, green parsley - that's cooking at the bottom of a deep pan, without blowing out anything else. No problem, put a circle mask on the bottom of the pan, bring up the mids and highs, and I'm done. But now the cook brings his light brown wood spatula loaded with bright yellow butter into the pan - I need to keep this from blowing out while still brightening the stew. With Colorista II I add an excluding key for the spatula and butter to the circle mask in the secondary corrector. The edges of the key are kept very soft which helps hide the fact that's it's not all that accurate but the spatula is moving pretty fast so it's not too obvious. Meanwhile I can still have an overall correction in the Colorista primary because the clip I'm correcting was shot on a small overhead camera and I need it to color match the bigger studio cameras. This specific type of correction I might do 20 times in an episode. I could do part of this in the LCS, but the simplicity and portability of having the whole grade as a single effect is lost.

[Oliver Peters] "BTW, I am comparing Colorista III, which no longer includes internal masking. Therefore, you can only mask the whole filter - so the same with Colorista III as with Lumetri."

Eliminating the primary and secondary correction areas in the new Colorista III was an act of stupidity that boggles the mind. I foolishly bought the upgrade without testing, assuming it was actually an upgrade. Live and learn ... and then delete and re-install. When I talk of Colorista, I talk strictly about Colorista II.

[Oliver Peters] " I, for one, find this a great step forward, as I've always disliked the built-in Premiere Pro correctors up until now."

It's a definite major improvement over the PPro correctors. My comments are based, as always, by looking at things through the lens of my own specific workflow.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 4:14:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Agree, but as always, the devil is in the details. In my case I'm dealing with cooking food and often I'll need to brighten a stew.... This specific type of correction I might do 20 times in an episode. I could do part of this in the LCS, but the simplicity and portability of having the whole grade as a single effect is lost."

I completely understand what you are saying and there are ways to do this without keying, but it does require multiple instances of the filter, plus masks, in all likelihood. This would be true in FCP X, Color, or Resolve, too. Just there, you'd do it with several nodes or rooms.

OTOH, what you are doing could not have been done in Premiere Pro without Colorista I or II (not III). That's where many power user would bounce out to AE or do it in SG. I presume part of the reason Red Giant changed the masking with Colorista III was to improve performance, given that PProCC2014 (and now CC2015) has built in masking. As does FCPX, too.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 5:12:09 pm
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Jun 18, 2015 at 5:13:50 pm

[Oliver Peters] " I presume part of the reason Red Giant changed the masking with Colorista III was to improve performance, given that PProCC2014 (and now CC2015) has built in masking. As does FCPX, too."

Assuming there is a reason, it was a bad reason. What set Colorista apart from all other CC plug-ins was the HSL wheel and the 3 separate correctors. Without those separate correctors and with LCS having it's own, more advanced HSL wheel, there is no reason to buy Colorista III at all, at least in Ppro 2015.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 9:13:49 pm

hey - just reading your informative thread there - this dude actually does a really solid breakdown of the lumetri panel in an entertaining accent:







He says an interesting thing about colour qualification where he mentions the resolve hue vs hue controller? I don't know resolve from a hole in the ground but he makes a big point of it - Oliver would know all about you'd reckon. Also when he plays with the shadow highlight stuff and some of the other new stuff - it seems like adobe have had a really long think about what goes into this - the two stages of LUTS and all that - I'm a colorista MB looks kiddie as well, but could see myself using this sometimes. I like lightroom and the panel seems nicely put together as a flow. decent youtube vid on it anyway..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 10:00:10 pm

Thanks, very informative.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "He says an interesting thing about colour qualification where he mentions the resolve hue vs hue controller?"

If your familiar with Colorista, he's talking about the ability to go into the HSL color wheels and pick a color, let's say blue, and drag it over to another hue, let's say red, thereby changing all the blue's to red. With the LCP you can change the intensity of a hue, but you can't change one hue to another. What's great about the LCP is you can totally control the range of the hue you want to alter, in the Colorista HSL wheel the hue's are predetermined and not nearly as flexible. I'm guessing that in a dedicated grading ap like Resolve you get the best of both.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 10:38:53 pm

ok yes. yes yes - I was going to try and reference that off mentioning hue to hue - but I wasn't completely sure. The resolve implementation I'm utterly unfamiliar with?

I'm very fond of the ability to cluster the HSL balls together in colorista. I really think it's magic. Stu Maschwitz did a great breakdown - somewhat giving a lot of the grading game away there recently?







I get that resolve is amazing - but there is some stuff in colorista as a mental model for CC that I love. The malleability of those dots in the hue circle - it's crazy clean given the sophistication of the things you're doing to the colour space. do like me some colorista. I half think of Maschwitz like the Jamie Oliver of colour correction- he really opposes ornate practice but he's awfully stringent on good processes.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Wilson
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 10:50:56 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I half think of Maschwitz like the Jamie Oliver of colour correction- he really opposes ornate practice but he's awfully stringent on good processes."

Full marks for a spot-on simile that doesn't involve a car.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 3:06:50 pm

well it had to happen eventually.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 11:05:47 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm guessing that in a dedicated grading ap like Resolve you get the best of both."

Yes, you have a lot of flexibility with curves in Resolve. Not only do you have a bunch of options, but you can have multiple point snd adjustments along any single curve line. You also had some of this control in Color.

- Oliver



Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Field
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:16:45 am

Secondary Color correction is still alive and well in the new Premiere Pro 2015 - just go old school - call up the three way color corrector - secondary's still there - you can easily recreate Pleasantville by isolating one color and dropping the rest

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Dennis Radeke
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 10:51:10 am

Another response more for the general thread...

[Herb Sevush] "All too true, however what's even slower than Colorista's keyer is the LCS having no keyer at all. No keyer, no secondaries, no eyedropper, no thank you."

Herb, you are so quotable...thank you! ;-)

There is the Hue Saturation Curve control which does secondary type functions as someone else has pointed out.

The goal of the Lumetri Color workflow/effect is to bring a large part of the power of Speedgrade and make it more accessible to a wider range of users. I've used the comparison of making Color more inviting via Lightroom. For me the great experience of Lightroom, is that I start twiddling knobs and see results - often good results. It is inviting and dare I say, fun.

For a lot of people color grading/correcting is not fun, not intuitive and they don't get the results they're looking for easily. This is what we've attempted to fix with the Lumetri Color Effect.

For a lot of people this is going to be a great tool that helps them get farther in creating good content via color shaping than previously. It will hopefully be fun and instructive at the same time.

For some of the people here who are saying it needs this or that, I hear you but I would point you back to your tool of choice and in our case, Speedgrade where you have the full range (which is extremely extensive) of tools at your disposal.

For advanced users, this is another tool in the toolbox - one of a choice of tools. For other users, this will be a great tool that hopefully is revelatory.

My .2 (or 20) cents,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Herb Sevush
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:59:42 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "For advanced users, this is another tool in the toolbox - one of a choice of tools. For other users, this will be a great tool that hopefully is revelatory."

I might have overstated my disappointment due to the "game changer" praise that followed it's announcement. I was hoping that it would end my need for Colorista, which is a slow PITA to use that always requires rendering. The LCS seems very powerful and good for what it does, it just doesn't do all I need. Maybe some day it will.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 11:26:41 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "For a lot of people this is going to be a great tool that helps them get farther in creating good content via color shaping than previously. It will hopefully be fun and instructive at the same time.
"


rather, said the subscriber, still - introducing pretty serious code articles like shadow, highlight and vibrance control seems a better transference of colour sophistication to quick use cases than apple ever managed with their zany square box CC. - zing-

It's kind of mad that adobe felt the space to go - do you know what - actually screw it, let's just do a good lightroom style CC panel for the edit software . That feels almost a definitive outcropping of the off sales ramp engineering latitude. Never mind blowing up half the AE ram preview logic. They're replacing wings in flight all over the place. Who'd ever risk an annual CS sale with all that zaniness?

Also who doesn't actually like the notion of an applied LR chain to video? Staged LUTS for god's sake.

If it had ever occurred to them you'd think apple could have pulled something like this from the bones of aperture. But they only unlocked CC from the start of the effects chain this year.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 11:37:54 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "That feels almost a definitive outcropping of the off sales ramp engineering latitude. Never mind blowing up half the AE ram preview logic. They're replacing wings in flight all over the place. Who'd ever risk an annual CS sale with all that zaniness? "

Pretty cool, huh?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 3:06:00 pm

yes it is basically. It's kind of thrilling that they're tearing AE up a bit. They've turned off multiprocessing for a bit! The ram preview has gone barmy! Them getting stuck into seriously messy stuff like the AE architecture is one thing you'd want to see in a membership context. They know everyone wants them to do it, and they've got the latitude now to really get into it. I almost don't care that the current AE rev would be half a building site for a year. I'll just keep on using cc14.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 8:43:07 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I almost don't care that the current AE rev would be half a building site for a year. I'll just keep on using cc14."

I could ironically point out that in the past with CS, you might have skipped buying this upgrade, but I won't rub it in. ;) The LCS in Pr does look awesome, btw.

_______________________
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 9:11:12 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Jun 19, 2015 at 9:12:03 pm

[David Lawrence] "I could ironically point out that in the past with CS, you might have skipped buying this upgrade, but I won't rub it in. ;)"

ha. yes rather - but lets be honest with each other - nothing like what they're doing now could ever conceivably happen inside an annual shrink wrap sell to new and upgrading customers. Half of AE in this build has an under construction sign on it. It's there - it works, but half of it is in flux. Nevermind metal. I mean they really have removed multiprocessing as a preference option - audio preview is half gone to lunch and they're still working out the function of the ram preview they've released. In terms of the multiprocessing they've simply stated that the scale of work underway will render it superfluous once they finish the house rebuild. The level of communication they're engaged in on this release is crazy - they've outlined stuff they determine is really gone, (that weird brainstorm thing no one alive ever used) and stuff that is temporarily gone while they tear up and rebuild AE.

It's impossible to avoid the fact that the engineering team is operating in ways that are far far far more interesting under club subscription membership. If that AE rev was a sell there would be an insane uproar - what do you mean multiprocessing is gone in this years release?? But the entire nature of the relationship is basically changed under CC. I could be coming over all pollyanna - but at least I'm getting crazy new engineering behaviour and balls out decision making for my membership buck. At this point I'm viewing the six hundred annual payment as going to the engineers christmas bar bill.

Also I do feel Jeremy Garchow is being super duper full on churlish about everything he sees with it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:28:56 am
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:37:46 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Also I do feel Jeremy Garchow is being super duper full on churlish about everything he sees with it"

Well, Andy "Lambast the Rentiers of Adobe" Gallagher, Jeremy "The Churlish Beauty" Garchow is mostly arguing about one feature of one app(the number one requested feature, mind you) that has been talked about since 2011 under the new rules of "release it when it's ready". I also think the yearly release is weird as I was convinced Adobe was stepping away from that development model due to the inherent limitations and new found freedoms contingent on accounting for the revenue stream that uh 'releases' companies from those 'inherent limitations' imposed by one Sarbanes and one Oxley. Obviously, I am wrong. Release it when it's not ready and about once a year is obviously the path forward. Apple has perfected it at this point. It's going pretty well for them?


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:34:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Release it when it's not ready about once a year is obviously the path forward."

And pay for it whether you can use it or not. Forced software rental is awesome! ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:55:04 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Jeremy "The Churlish Beauty" Garchow is mostly arguing about one feature of one app(the number one requested feature, mind you) that has been talked about since 2011 under the new rules of "release it when it's ready"."

The "speed up After Effects?" conversation started January 11, 2014:

http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2014/01/happy-new-year-and-a-question.h...

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:53:38 am

[Walter Soyka] "The "speed up After Effects?" conversation started January 11, 2014:
"


That's the date of the blog post, but it's not when the 'conversation' started.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 2:06:02 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's the date of the blog post, but it's not when the 'conversation' started."

The previous conversations about a faster Ae were all about the global performance cache, and that was delivered in 2012. That was no mean feat, but it wasn't replacing the wings in flight. It was evolutionary, not revolutionary.

The fact that you're disappointed in this release is exactly why I wonder if this kind of development could realistically be planned under CS.

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 2:47:36 am

[Walter Soyka] "The fact that you're disappointed in this release is exactly why I wonder if this kind of development could realistically be planned under CS."

Why couldn't it? The only things different would be marketing, licensing and public transparency. What does that have to do with development timelines?

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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:04:17 am
Last Edited By Walter Soyka on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:06:02 am

[David Lawrence] "Why couldn't it? The only things different would be marketing, licensing and public transparency. What does that have to do with development timelines?"

Because the majority of the After Effects team has been working for over a year to deliver v13.5, and Jeremy "Mckayla" Garchow is unimpressed.

When you sell what you develop, you develop what you can sell. CS created perverse incentives for product managers to focus on what's doable in the short term at the expense of the long term. CC is a much longer game.

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:12:48 am

[Walter Soyka] "When you sell what you develop, so you develop what you can sell. CS created perverse incentives for product managers to focus on what's doable in the short term at the expense of the long term. CC is a much longer game."

I disagree. The market created the incentive for Adobe to up their NLE game and deliver Premiere CS6.

Now that they're free of the CS model, what are the perverse incentives forcing them to do yearly full install releases, complete with big marketing features?

I agree it's a long game btw, I just don't think it'll play out the way Adobe management and their Wall Street cronies expect.

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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:26:36 am

[David Lawrence] "I disagree. The market created the incentive for Adobe to up their NLE game and deliver Premiere CS6."

Premiere Pro CS6 was an iterative improvement on CS5 and CS5.5, full of easy-to-sell features that look good on the tin.

Ae's 21 years old. It could have used a new architecture a decade ago. Why do you think it didn't get that re-design sooner?


[David Lawrence] "Now that they're free of the CS model, what are the perverse incentives forcing them to do yearly full install releases, complete with big marketing features?"

They've chosen a schedule, but isn't this Ae release (that you would choose to skip because there's no compelling value for you) the opposite of this "big marketing feature" idea?

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:00:00 am

[Walter Soyka] "Ae's 21 years old. It could have used a new architecture a decade ago. Why do you think it didn't get that re-design sooner?"

Because deep software development is impossible under perpetual licensing sales?

Or maybe because management didn't think it was a priority for 21 years and now users are beginning to notice?

[Walter Soyka] "They've chosen a schedule, but isn't this Ae release (that you would choose to skip because there's no compelling value for you) the opposite of this "big marketing feature" idea?"

It is. But it's also incomplete. Normally it would be held until ready and customers wouldn't be expected to pay for it until they could use it.

Forced rental changes the power relationship between vendor and customer. And not for the customer's benefit. You pay whether you can use the new version or not, and if you stop paying, you're left with nothing.

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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:17:50 am

[David Lawrence] "Because deep software development is impossible under perpetual licensing sales? Or maybe because management didn't think it was a priority for 21 years and now users are beginning to notice?"

I can assure you that users have noticed for a long time.


[David Lawrence] "It is. But it's also incomplete. Normally it would be held until ready and customers wouldn't be expected to pay for it until they could use it."

How does that reconcile with the yearly CS releases Adobe's business was dependent on? There just wouldn't be an Ae CS9 this year?


[David Lawrence] "Forced rental changes the power relationship between vendor and customer. And not for the customer's benefit. You pay whether you can use the new version or not, and if you stop paying, you're left with nothing."

It's funny, but we never called it "forced license sales" when that was the only option.

Perpetual license sales are transactional. Subscription-only makes the vendor completely dependent on creating long-term relationships with their customers to realize any significant value.

I know you are philosophically opposed, and I respect your thinking very highly, but I see a lot of practical customer benefit.

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:29:01 am

[Walter Soyka] "How does that reconcile with the yearly CS releases Adobe's business was dependent on? There just wouldn't be an Ae CS9 this year?"

Maybe not. Or maybe it would come mid-year? How did it work before with CS? Weren't there some years where some applications in the suite got more attention than others?

[Walter Soyka] "It's funny, but we never called it "forced license sales" when that was the only option.

Perpetual license sales are transactional. Subscription-only makes the vendor completely dependent on creating long-term relationships with their customers to realize any significant value."


Yes, I agree when the subscription model allows the customer a fair exit. Avid's subscription model creates fair incentives in both directions. There are other service agreement type models as well. But with CC Adobe holds all the cards. Stop paying and the software stops working. No other choice. I respect your opinion but to me, this is the most consumer-hostile move I've ever seen from a major software vendor.

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Dennis Radeke
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 21, 2015 at 10:03:58 am

First, why am I responding to a post at 5:50AM in the morning. There's got to be a name for this sickness...

[Walter Soyka] "Ae's 21 years old. It could have used a new architecture a decade ago. Why do you think it didn't get that re-design sooner?"

My guess (truly) but probably an informed one is this: Ten years ago given the choice, users were choosing new features over speed and UI. The importance of UI was just beginning to come to the forefront too (look at UI's of any program back then). Secondly, Adobe probably didn't want to mess with AE because it was driving a much larger fraction of the overall video revenue back in the day. Premiere Pro was out there but didn't have the reputation and capabilities that it does today.

[David Lawrence] "Now that they're free of the CS model, what are the perverse incentives forcing them to do yearly full install releases, complete with big marketing features?""

David, just because we aren't bound by a specific release schedule doesn't mean we don't want to market it and actively promote it in the best way possible. Today's societies are media saturated and everyone is selling all of the time. As any for profit business, Adobe wants to position and present its products in the very best light possible. If you're selling your services to a prospective client, you don't bring out a 4x3 video you did 20 years ago, do you? Similarly, Adobe creates a good product and simultaneously spreads the message of why it will appeal to you.

To reiterate, major video apps have gotten as many as 4 updates in a year, two or more of those as major, feature bearing releases. Premiere Pro has had 4+ releases per year for the past few years. many hundreds of features large and small - more substantive IMO than any other similar application out there. Some will disagree and that's okay - but I am personally very proud of our track record three releases into the Creative Cloud subscription model.

Dennis - Adobe Guy


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:56:21 am

[David Lawrence] "I agree it's a long game btw, I just don't think it'll play out the way Adobe management and their Wall Street cronies expect."

I'll drop the wherefore for a moment. CC has been really, really good to me, as an artist who actually uses this software everyday. I like this development trajectory a lot better; it's very user-focused.

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:04:19 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'll drop the wherefore for a moment. CC has been really, really good to me, as an artist who actually uses this software everyday. I like this development trajectory a lot better; it's very user-focused."

I hear you. I just think there's nothing stopping Adobe from also making their yearly desktop software versions available to users like myself who won't rent. Best of both worlds. They're leaving a lot of money on the table.

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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:22:18 am

[David Lawrence] "I just think there's nothing stopping Adobe from also making their yearly desktop software versions available to users like myself who won't rent. Best of both worlds. They're leaving a lot of money on the table."

I'd love for them to figure something out for you, David, but I hope it doesn't hurt what I've come to appreciate about the CC model. Sadly, I don't see how our wishes are compatible.

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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:07:17 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:09:15 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'd love for them to figure something out for you, David, but I hope it doesn't hurt what I've come to appreciate about the CC model. Sadly, I don't see how our wishes are compatible."

It's not rocket science. The technology is already in place, all they have to do is flip a switch. When Adobe management decides they want to sell perpetual licenses again, they can easily do so. And I promise, it won't hurt the things you like about CC. Development and sales/licensing are two different things. Adobe is a big enough company that they can give us both what we want, if they want to.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:39:33 am

[David Lawrence] "Adobe is a big enough company that they can give us both what we want, if they want to."

You mean something like Avid's 'maintenance fee' (or whatever they are calling it) approach?

I gave Avid my $300 late last year so I could upgrade to 8 and to be honest I feel more anxiety about my Avid plan than I do about CC. With CC I can start/stop it w/o penalty, but with Avid if I don't renew the maintenance fee then I have to pay full retail if I need the latest version of MC ($1300 IIRC). On two occasions I've already let my CC membership lapse (it was only like a month each time before I fired it up again) but with Avid I'm probably going to pay keep paying the fee whether I think I'll need Avid or not. I don't want to get 'penalized' $1000 by guessing wrong about my software needs for the coming year.

I understand the pros/cons to each approach and I think they both have room for improvement. Well, check that, as a consumer I wish they were both structured differently but I don't know if the improvements would actually be financially sound business decisions.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:54:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "but with Avid I'm probably going to pay keep paying the fee whether I think I'll need Avid or not. I don't want to get 'penalized' $1000 by guessing wrong about my software needs for the coming year."

If Avid isn't full-time for you, then you could simply go subscription with Avid as well. Activate per job as needed on a month-by-month basis.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:54:09 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If Avid isn't full-time for you, then you could simply go subscription with Avid as well. Activate per job as needed on a month-by-month basis."

Unfortunately I have no way of knowing, and typically my gigs area measured in months, so at $75/mo I'd most likely hit the 'I shoulda just paid the $300' point. I think Avid did a pretty good job with setting the price points so you'd feel stupid by not just paying them the $300 annually. ;)

I don't know how long it's been going on but I did notice that Avid is having a sale until the end of June. Their annual subscription price is now $30/mo instead of the regular $50/mo.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:53:35 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't know how long it's been going on but I did notice that Avid is having a sale until the end of June. Their annual subscription price is now $30/mo instead of the regular $50/mo."

I haven't checked lately, but when I calculated the annual rate of subscription originally, it took 6 years before the perpetual+annual maintenance became a better deal. Remember that the subscription includes the Symphony option.

- Oliver

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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 9:32:20 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I haven't checked lately, but when I calculated the annual rate of subscription originally, it took 6 years before the perpetual+annual maintenance became a better deal. Remember that the subscription includes the Symphony option.
"


Was the calculation starting from a clean slate (i.e. the person doesn't have an existing version of MC) and include all the 'add-ons' to the perpetual license? I know the subscription includes all the bells and whistles (well, what bells and whistles are left) but I've personally never need Symphony. I'm either offline editing w/MC or I'll finish in Resolve (or even Color before that). Having Symphony would be nice, but it's never worked out to be cost effective for me.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 10:12:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Was the calculation starting from a clean slate (i.e. the person doesn't have an existing version of MC) and include all the 'add-ons' to the perpetual license?"

Yes. If you bought MC perpetual and maintained it for 6 years you would pay approximately $2800 + the Symphony option, 1 time for $750. A total of $3550. If you subscribe for 6 years at the annual rate, it's $3600. The only reason I tossed in Symphony as part of the equation was because you get that in the subscription model.

- Oliver

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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:49:30 am

[David Lawrence] "Development and sales/licensing are two different things."

I think this is where we differ. I see these as one big ball of yarn, and it seems very evident to me that development has changed a lot since Adobe went subscription-only. I'm sincerely surprised that anyone would argue to the contrary.

To support your point, though, I have thought of one other mature application in our space that's undergone serious deep re-architecture work in the last few years: Flame. Of course, the economics of their sales model is a bit different than most perpetually-licensed products.

Walter Soyka
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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 23, 2015 at 7:48:32 pm

On a maybe related note, I just saw this interesting article on Ars about a new feature in Photoshop.

"Adobe has announced "Photoshop Design Space," a new interface for Photoshop geared toward professional app and Web designers. The company calls the new interface "a companion experience" to the normal Photoshop UI, which is a streamlined interface consisting of the most-needed tools for app and Web design. The most interesting thing, though? Adobe designed this new interface in HTML5, and it's open source."

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/06/photoshop-gets-an-open-source-html5-...

This don't solve the 'could they/couldn't they easily do this in CS' debate, and this UI venture might not ultimately go anywhere memorable, but I do think it is another example of Adobe continuing to move their products forward (even the very mature, feature-filled ones). Many people voiced concern that Adobe would immediately hit 'cruise control' once they went subscription only but that doesn't appear to be the case.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:23:31 am

[Walter Soyka] "Because the majority of the After Effects team has been working for over a year to deliver v13.5, and Jeremy "Mckayla" Garchow is unimpressed.
"


That was good, but I see myself more like this:



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:06:09 am

[Walter Soyka] "The fact that you're disappointed in this release is exactly why I wonder if this kind of development could realistically be planned under CS.
"


It seems like at some point, management would have had to make the call to stay relevant and engineers would have to move mountains. They probably would have released it when it was ready to be a feature to collect the revenue.

And going back to the global cache and all those refinements, that's what I was talking about all that hard development time is pretty much cashed. Pun intended.

Anyway, I meant it when I said I'm not on a hunt. Perhaps I should stop reading those leg showing Adobe blogs and treat CC like CS. Every year around NAB there'll be some announcements and things will move along in a mostly a yearly cycle, and anytime between Apr and June we will download what Adobe had announced in April.

And reset parameters would be nice on the Lumetri panel so that I don't have to use two panels to modify one parameter. And "open all" would be nice so we don't have to constantly click through the interface. It is very Adobe like though. Great ideas, hard work, weird execution.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:19:38 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It seems like at some point, management would have had to make the call to stay relevant and engineers would have to move mountains. They probably would have released it when it was ready to be a feature to collect the revenue. "

See Avid DS, FCP7, Shake (which was being outclassed by Nuke before its EOL), XSI.

See anyone BMD has bought.

See Joel Spolsky, Things You Should Never Do, Part I [link].


[Jeremy Garchow] "And going back to the global cache and all those refinements, that's what I was talking about all that hard development time is pretty much cashed. Pun intended. "

The GPC is still there. The "cache in the background" feature is not currently with us, but the cache is still constantly written/read during previews.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Every year around NAB there'll be some announcements and things will move along in a mostly a yearly cycle, and anytime between Apr and June we will download what Adobe had announced in April."

And at one or two other points during the year, other features will be released instead of being held until the following June.


[Jeremy Garchow] "It is very Adobe like though. Great ideas, hard work, weird execution."

That's a criticism I'd agree with. Sometimes it seems like good features are introduced, but then don't get the iterations they deserve. That's part of why I'm glad to see them coming back to something that has desperately needed attention for a long, long time.

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:40:39 am

[Walter Soyka] "See Avid DS, FCP7, Shake (which was being outclassed by Nuke before its EOL), XSI.

See anyone BMD has bought.

See Joel Spolsky, Things You Should Never Do, Part I [link]."


Are you saying that these programs couldn't have been updated? Not sure what you mean. Perpetual licensing killed these programs?

[Walter Soyka] "That's a criticism I'd agree with. Sometimes it seems like good features are introduced, but then don't get the iterations they deserve. That's part of why I'm glad to see them coming back to something that has desperately needed attention for a long, long time.
"


We will see what happens. We'll know in April for CC 2016 for Ae v13.0.5 (they actually knock a few version points off because it's 'so fast').


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:53:59 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Are you saying that these programs couldn't have been updated? Not sure what you mean. Perpetual licensing killed these programs? "

I'm saying these are all programs that needed re-architecture and didn't get it. Why doesn't re-architecture happen, especially in cases like these where it's so badly needed?

Walter Soyka
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 4:07:04 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm saying these are all programs that needed re-architecture and didn't get it. Why doesn't re-architecture happen, especially in cases like these where it's so badly needed?
"


Well, duh, they weren't charging enough money per month!

Honestly, there isn't one over arching reason expect that the video industry itself, is hard and technology changes very quickly, especially since the advent of HD. There wasn't a need for million dollar tape rooms and all the software and hardware that goes with it. At some point, someone thought it wasn't worth it, so instead of violating Rule 1, they killed it.


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:20:03 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:36:53 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Every year around NAB there'll be some announcements and things will move along in a mostly a yearly cycle, and anytime between Apr and June we will download what Adobe had announced in April. "

Same as it ever was... except now with great new feature that your software stops working if you ever stop paying Adobe! ;)







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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 9:28:24 pm

[David Lawrence] "I could ironically point out that in the past with CS, you might have skipped buying this upgrade, but I won't rub it in. ;) The LCS in Pr does look awesome, btw."

With that in mind though, if Adobe did this under the CS model (release AE 13.5 as a paid upgrade from AE 13.2) how well do you think that would've played with users? Personally I think it would've gone over like a lead balloon. If enough users skipped the upgrade (while lambasting Adobe for being greedy by charging to go from 13.2 to 13.5) then doesn't that curb Adobe from undertaking product improvements of this type because it doesn't make financial sense?

If users, in general, vote with their wallets that they want new features more than they want advanced retooling under the hood then can people really be mad at Adobe for focusing on features that 'demo well' vs features that don't? There's only so many coders and so much time between product cycles so you can't do it all.

I know Jeremy seems burned out on the 'we are making AE faster' promise, but from what Walter says it seems like this is the first time the AE team has actually taken the steps to dig into the core of AE to modernize it so it can become significantly faster. Coincidence or is this a path to a better, faster AE that wouldn't have seen the light of day under the CS model for financial reasons?


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 10:33:53 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It's impossible to avoid the fact that the engineering team is operating in ways that are far far far more interesting under club subscription membership. If that AE rev was a sell there would be an insane uproar - what do you mean multiprocessing is gone in this years release?? But the entire nature of the relationship is basically changed under CC. I could be coming over all pollyanna - but at least I'm getting crazy new engineering behaviour and balls out decision making for my membership buck. At this point I'm viewing the six hundred annual payment as going to the engineers christmas bar bill."

Agreed! But...

[Andrew Kimery] "With that in mind though, if Adobe did this under the CS model (release AE 13.5 as a paid upgrade from AE 13.2) how well do you think that would've played with users? "

I don't think they would have made this release under the CS model. I do think they would be working on it, though.

Transparency is interesting and cool, but I think Jeremy's point still holds. They're still doing yearly releases that are full version installs. They're still marketing these yearly releases with banner features.

I'm sure you'll see mid to late-year updates that make the under-the-hood changes in AE pay off. But I don't think any of this has anything to do with a forced rental licensing model.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 10:53:36 pm

[David Lawrence] "I don't think they would have made this release under the CS model. I do think they would be working on it, though.
"


I think this is where our divergence happens. How much can they really work on it while still working on features that are compelling enough to get users to pay the upgrade price?

Out of curiosity (and this is to every one, not just you David) how often do companies gut an app and rebuild it? Apple did it with FCP7 to FCP X, but they have a side business selling hardware to help make ends meet. Adobe did it with Premiere to PPro but at the time Premiere wasn't exactly setting the world on fire (some might have called it a mercy killing). Has Smoke ever gone through a big reboot?

What I'm wondering is, is there even something like an SOP for, to use Aindreas' words, replace wings while inflight? Or is each situation so unique that companies always have to find their own way?


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 11:02:43 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Has Smoke ever gone through a big reboot?"

Sure. Smoke for Mac (now the only version of Smoke) is a huge rewrite. Add to that Lightworks, Resolve, and now Fusion. EditShare (Lightworks) and BMD (Resolve, Fusion) had nothing to lose. BMD took the bold step of killing off DaVinci 2K, which was the established leading product before the acquisition.

But it's rare. Most take the route Avid has to progressively upgrade and swap out modules under-the-hood.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 11:18:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But it's rare. Most take the route Avid has to progressively upgrade and swap out modules under-the-hood."

It's definitely more rare in in the case of large, complex applications that have a huge user base (Microsoft Office anyone?). But with smaller developers, big reboots are the norm. Rogue Amoeba for example, just relaunched their excellent Audio Hijack application:

https://rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/

Version 3 is a complete ground-up rebuild. It's a totally different piece of software that the previous version.

Of course, Adobe is much more like Microsoft and Rogue Amoeba, but that doesn't change that fact that marketing and licensing decisions and engineering timelines are entirely different animals.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 12:36:07 am

[David Lawrence] "
It's definitely more rare in in the case of large, complex applications that have a huge user base (Microsoft Office anyone?). But with smaller developers, big reboots are the norm. Rogue Amoeba for example, just relaunched their excellent Audio Hijack application:"


This is what I was wondering.

How many big companies have been slinging software of the same name to consumers for 25 years?

How many companies have even had the chance to blow it up and rebuild due to longevity?


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:01:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "How many companies have even had the chance to blow it up and rebuild due to longevity?"

You are making the assumption that users want a company to blow up the software and rebuild it. They almost always don't. Look how many Word users hate, hate, hate the MS ribbon menu concept. Re-imagined software is for new users more than anything else. When you stray too far, you alienate the existing users. The reason is that existing users don't want to be in a mode of constantly relearning software. They want to use it and have the thought precess of using it move into the background of their mind.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:10:58 am

[Oliver Peters] "You are making the assumption that users want a company to blow up the software and rebuild it. "

Probably not a lot of users would ask for an FCP X style blow up and rebuild, but something along the lines of what it seems the AE team is doing (where the customer facing portions stay consistent but the internal workings get modernized) would presumably be popular with many users. Well, the finished product would be. The growing pains to get there would not.


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:22:10 am

[Oliver Peters] "You are making the assumption that users want a company to blow up the software and rebuild it. They almost always don't. Look how many Word users hate, hate, hate the MS ribbon menu concept. Re-imagined software is for new users more than anything else. When you stray too far, you alienate the existing users. The reason is that existing users don't want to be in a mode of constantly relearning software. They want to use it and have the thought precess of using it move into the background of their mind."


This x 1000. ^

A big reboot is highly risky for large vendors with millions of users - again Microsoft comes to mind with Windows 8 for example. A big vendor has to tread a fine line between modernizing code, revamping UI and pissing off users. It's not easy.

That said, I think the place where these companies tend to fail is with UI. Users could care less about the code under the hood. They just want their software to be bug free and fast. But make the UI confusing or take away important features and the users will howl. (They'll howl if it's buggy or slow too).

Adobe is walking the fine line as they gut and rebuild AE's foundation. they have to modernize without blowing up the huge AE ecosystem that millions of users depend on. No easy feat. I have nothing but the highest respect for the development team pulling this off. It looks like they're doing a great job.

Just wish Adobe management would start selling software again.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:28:20 am

[Oliver Peters] "Look how many Word users hate, hate, hate the MS ribbon menu concept. Re-imagined software is for new users more than anything else. When you stray too far, you alienate the existing users. The reason is that existing users don't want to be in a mode of constantly relearning software. They want to use it and have the thought precess of using it move into the background of their mind."

but isn't this somewhere else entirely? Adobe are waving you off to use largely unaltered AE software. They're in the basement with jack hammers. This isn't a ribbon, it's the comparative process by which microsoft can deliver keystrokes in real time. Adobe are trying to accelerate the most basic processes of the AE software - they're not touching the GUI - it feels almost more an OS level refit given the complexity of AE. Word is a word processor. They've not been concerned with hitting metal to deliver keystrokes for three decades. Adobe look to have a large building site behind the unaltered GUI of AE. Look at those multiprocessing preferences off line.
It is literally as unsexy as it gets.
It's not - try and get used to the ribbon - it's: we're re-fitting the bakerloo underground line and we look to be finished in october.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 1:47:55 am

[Oliver Peters] "
You are making the assumption that users want a company to blow up the software and rebuild it."


No.

I'm asking what company even has the chance? Andrew asked who has done it, I'm asking who can do it.

Avid is one that could.

Microsoft could. (Microsoft did blow up Excel there for a bit).

Adobe could.

What other entity has consumer software that's been around 25 years that has millions of users?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 11:49:41 pm

super agree lots of stuff gets re-tooled. in early days 3DS max was madness in terms of crazy new stuff getting lumped in. I think though, that the impetus and rationale with AE feels different. Resolve are looking to produce transformative perceptions, and eat new territory - Smoke's increasingly mangled versions on OSX feel like a difficult emotional time that autodesk are drawing to a close...

AE is the only one I can think of where they laid out you're going to get plaster dust for quite a long time because there is a ton of stuff that is overdue. They asked if it would be ok, they have a few million subscribers, and there is a weirdly notable absence of uproar over the experimental in process state of AE.

Adobe's current major market statement is that they're excitingly doing extensive disruptive building refurbishment in a piece of core mograph software used by millions. That's what adobe are doing at the moment. They're communicating shortcomings during building disruption. That is their statement on AE.
That all feels quite unusual for high value market software. I quite like it? As in - it's subscription implications money where their mouth is. They are risking real things.

They did actually just shut down multi-processing and a bunch of stuff? They're being straight up about their perception of the relationship. It's hard to make an ad out of:
"Join the creative cloud - we may in near future scenarios tear sections apart for good reasons and advise you to retain previous versions for continued work practises!"

that's hard to make a creative suite ad out of.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tim Wilson
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 3:25:41 am

[Andrew Kimery] "how often do companies gut an app and rebuild it? Apple did it with FCP7 to FCP X, but they have a side business selling hardware to help make ends meet. "

No, they did from FCP FIVE to FCPX.

Feel free to go back through the COW archives to satisfy yourself on this, but I'm telling ya that the last time that FCP users came out of NAB super happy was in 2005, when Apple added multicam.

Coming home from 2007, the reaction was overwhelmingly negative, largely because nobody could figure out what to make out of ProRes just yet. People recognized that it was basically DNxHD, but four years after Avid it, where it didn't seem to make all that much sense, either.

(Color was introduced, which turned out to be a bigger deal looking back...until it wasn't...but it was hardly greeted with hosannas on any wide scale, and certainly not much for FCP.)

It wasn't until people got their hands on AJA Io that ProRes started to become real through the rest of 2007...nothing much from FCP itself...and in 2008, no Apple booth of course, and once again, no real FCP news.

Lather, rinse, repeat in 2009 and 2010.

Please note that none of this is my opinion. It's right there in the archive.

Lots of amazing camera stuff from those NABs, new storage, DaVinci Resolve in 2010, etc etc, lots of positive energy coming out of the show -- but the record is unambiguous. Other than some excitement that AJA whipped up for hardware encoding that others picked up...there were years and years where FCP partisans came back from NAB somewhere between disappointed and angry.

Apart from that 2007 bump, pretty much every year since 2005, which was of course hosanna in the highest.

In retrospect, it's not that Apple wasn't doing anything major with FCP from 2005 to 2011. It's that they were doing something SO major that they couldn't do it AND keep up the pretense that the future was going to proceed along the same path.

I think you, Andrew, and Aindreas and Walter and others are exactly right, that Adobe's dust-covered "Open While Under Construction" sign is also the sign that they're committed to a path that's neither discontinuous nor held captive to old architecture.

It's ballsy as hell, and I couldn't agree more that there's no way they could realistically pull it off if they had to "market" the idea of "Open While Under Construction" to get discrete upgrade dollars. You really need a predictable revenue stream in order to undertake long-term infrastructure reconstruction on this scale.

Given that Apple's construction project took something like 6 years, with an outcome that took another couple years of maturity before it as seen as a major step forward by a major part of their previously most enthusiastic enthusiasts, I'd say for Adobe is well ahead of the pace. The very least it's realistic to say is "so far so good," even if for any individual user it may not yet be good enough.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 20, 2015 at 5:11:22 am

[Tim Wilson] "No, they did from FCP FIVE to FCPX."

I don't remember being let down by FCP 6 but the final update to the Final Cut Studio was totally a leftover bag of unwanted halloween candy. And when I saw that Color just went to 1.5 I was pissed (and I knew Color was gonna go down like Shake). I had been using Color on a weekly TV show and I was so looking forward to what new and improved awesomeness Apple was going give us with 2.0. Nope, here's a bunch of bug fixes we are calling 1.5. I know you were hoping for a Transformer, but here is a Gobot.

That's for bringing up all these repressed memories, Tim! ;)


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Charlie Austin
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 9:42:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] "PPro has had major revisions in the last few years, so I'm OK with nothing much going on this year, but let's face it, nothing much is going on."

I have to agree here on all points. And not while wearing my "I Like FCP X way better" hat either. ;-) They fixed at least one bug that could reliably crash the app, so that's nice, but it's really pretty much the same old same old. Which is fine. It works.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 9:48:06 pm

What is confusing to me, is the branding. I assume Adobe is still figuring this out.

At first, CC was it and it was going to be a platform and they were getting rid of the "suite" and updates would come fast and frequent. Then CC 2014 introduced seemingly a new version of everything, and CC 2014 installed next to CC without you doing anything, and there was a big wad of two different yet similar apps in the Applications folder.

Now, we have CC 2015 which seems like it should be another new round of stuff, and in the case of Ae, the version went from 13.2 to 13.5, and CC 2015 deletes the CC 2014 apps by default.

It's weird. And I understand Adobe is working hard on Ae, but the new cache thing is cool and has some good new options, but it's still very much like a RAM preview. I still can't play a file back in real time.


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Charlie Austin
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 9:53:23 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but it's still very much like a RAM preview. I still can't play a file back in real time."

Apple has apparently fixed that for Adobe with Metal in 10.11. I hope they thank them. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 10:40:16 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Apple has apparently fixed that for Adobe with Metal in 10.11. I hope they thank them. :-)"

No. Metal is an Apple-branded, platform-specific GPU API. Metal will not do anything for apps that are not specifically written for Metal.

When you see "Metal," think "Apple-flavored OpenGL + OpenCL." OpenGL and OpenCL have been around for years, but since Ae (in most cases) doesn't use them, there is no acceleration. It will be likewise with El Capitan, unless/until Ae adopts GPU acceleration [link].

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 11:50:02 pm

[Walter Soyka] "No. Metal is an Apple-branded, platform-specific GPU API. Metal will not do anything for apps that are not specifically written for Metal. "

True, but from what I can glean (and understand lol) it is a very nice API

[Walter Soyka] "It will be likewise with El Capitan, unless/until Ae adopts GPU acceleration [link].
"


I'll go out on a limb with a WAG and say they will adopt it. Perhaps not right away, but they will. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 1:12:50 am

[Charlie Austin] "True, but from what I can glean (and understand lol) it is a very nice API"

Sure. Apple has done a good job bringing nice technologies to their developers. I don't mean to knock it at all. But what's really nice about the API is the performance you can get with it.

Interestingly, Metal is kind of the opposite of other recent Apple technologies. While Apple has been rolling out new higher-level functionality to developers (Core*), Metal is, well, closer to the metal. A lot of the performance gains with Metal come from reducing the overhead inherent in higher-level, more abstract APIs like OpenGL. It's largely about reducing the GPU's dependence on the CPU during graphics processing. It's all the rage in graphics programming right now -- the same thing Microsoft is doing with DirectX 12 and AMD is doing with Mantle, which Kronos is adopting for Vulkan.


[Charlie Austin] "I'll go out on a limb with a WAG and say they will adopt it. Perhaps not right away, but they will. :-)"

Presumably if they are publicly talking about it a developers conference, yes. But we're very short on actual details right now.

Walter "Not a professional GPU developer, but I did once hack together a basic GPU-accelerated Ae plugin" Soyka

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 1:19:52 am

[Walter Soyka] "Walter "Not a professional GPU developer, but I did once hack together a basic GPU-accelerated Ae plugin" Soyka"

But did you do it while staying at a Holiday Inn Express?


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 1:24:04 am

[Andrew Kimery] "But did you do it while staying at a Holiday Inn Express?"

Of course. How on earth else would I have ever figured it out?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 10:16:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What is confusing to me, is the branding. I assume Adobe is still figuring this out."

Part of the branding problem was the use of the world "cloud" in the name and part of the branding problem is some bloggers/writers/forum posters, etc., unintentionally spreading inaccurate information in a modern day version of the game 'telephone'. The first part would've been solved pretty quickly if the second part had actually read press releases (instead of just the headline) before their fingers hit their keyboards.

Adobe starting out with CC and then going with CC2013, CC2014, etc., isn't backtracking or rebranding, it's just the newest version of naming convention they started over a decade ago. If you go way back to the first CS it was just called CS (as opposed to CS1) and the next version was CS 2.

With regards to updates, CC was never, ever going to be a stream of pushed updates like, say, Google Docs. From the get go Adobe said up to at least old 5 versions of the apps (starting with CS6) will be available to CC subscribers. New version releases were always a part of the plan with the difference being the new releases weren't the end/all be all when it came to new adding features. In the CS days if a new feature wasn't ready in time for launch it either got put out too soon or held back until the next CS release. Now new feature upgrades can, and are, released between major versions.

Obviously there's a natural limit to releasing things when they are ready because they aren't going to release a new feature for, say, AE if it breaks part of the compatibility between AE and PPro. Features like those obviously have to be coordinated between teams.

CC2015 uninstalling old apps by default is new though and a rather unwelcome, IMO, default behavior. Having the option is nice, but the default should be to leave everything in place.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 16, 2015 at 11:51:18 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Jun 17, 2015 at 12:55:22 am

Not sure about blaming this on bloggers here.

I'll look back but I'm pretty sure throughout all the cloud pricing and SOX stuff, one of the advantages of CC was being able to release features when they're ready and getting off of a yearly cycle, and yet, here we are.

I understand compatibility issues especially when it comes to interoperability between different video applications, but it sure seems like a yearly release schedule with some apps getting more updated than others, just like CS (if you were a CS user).

CC installed without deleting CS. CC 2014 installed without deleting anything. CC 2015 nukes it all by default.

It's not super consistent, but maybe that's why Adobe is now defaulting to previous version deletions so that you don't have 4 years of application versions installed and it feels like one version. For instance, Ae 2015 projects will open in 2014 without having to save down (as its still v13.x in 2014 and 2015).


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 12:28:42 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Not sure about blaming this on bloggers here. "

I didn't blame it on bloggers alone. I blamed it on everyone that saw the name "creative cloud" and then went off halfcocked at their keyboard w/out ever reading the info Adobe was releasing. There was a lot of misinformation floating around and the only reliable sources were Adobe themselves (either official press releases, blog posts or people like Dennis and Todd that post here at the COW). Occasionally I still run into people that think the apps won't work unless you are always connected to the Internet (like it's YouTube or something).

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'll look back but I'm pretty sure throughout all the cloud pricing and SOX stuff, one of the advantages of CC was being able to release features when they're ready and getting off of a yearly cycle, and yet, here we are. "

Here were are and Adobe releases feature upgrades throughout the year as well as full version releases. New version releases were always going to happen and Adobe said as much. It doesn't function like Google Docs (where it's just 'Google Docs') and Adobe never said it would. When you have as many apps that talk to each other as Adobe does it makes since to have all the major releases happen at once, but that's only superficially like the CS days. New features (typically more minor features) can be added any time (not just with major version releases) and things like AE getting a massive, under-the-hood overhaul are possible.

I feel like Adobe was pretty clear with what the plan for CC was but I made it a point to read what Adobe said it was going to do vs read what other people assumed what they thought Adobe was going to do. I even remember, even some tech large tech sites reporting on it and making it sound like Adobe was going the way of Google Docs. Misinformation all of the place.


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David Powell
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 12:40:26 am

The ability to map nudge with trim, is huge to me. Having non-contextual mapping on the keboard is ridiculous. Now if they can just make markers target driven and make patching more friendly, I can move half of my FCPX work over to Premiere.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 1:28:54 am

[David Powell] " I can move half of my FCPX work over to Premiere."

But why? Only half?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 2:02:05 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Here were are and Adobe releases feature upgrades throughout the year as well as full version releases. New version releases were always going to happen and Adobe said as much. It doesn't function like Google Docs (where it's just 'Google Docs') and Adobe never said it would. When you have as many apps that talk to each other as Adobe does it makes since to have all the major releases happen at once, but that's only superficially like the CS days. New features (typically more minor features) can be added any time (not just with major version releases) and things like AE getting a massive, under-the-hood overhaul are possible."

I just want a faster Ae, is that so wrong? :)

I don't know bud. It seems like it's a major yearly release, something that was looking like they wanted to get away from. I see "CC 2015" right next to "CC 2014", I see the big marketing blitz, I see the some of the features touted months ago, and........yeah.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/1282


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 3:56:18 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I just want a faster Ae, is that so wrong? :)"

No, that's probably one of the few things pretty much everyone can agree on!


[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't know bud. It seems like it's a major yearly release, something that was looking like they wanted to get away from. I see "CC 2015" right next to "CC 2014", I see the big marketing blitz, I see the some of the features touted months ago, and........yeah."

CS = All apps updated at the same time, be there or be square. Got something that's ready 6 moths before the next CS launch? Shelve it for now. Got something that's not quite ready for prime time? Release it underdone or shelve it until next year.

CC= All major updates happen at the same time (which makes sense from a cross-app integration standpoint). Minor feature upgrades can happen whenever. For clarity, "major" and "minor" are my terms, not official language from Adobe. Major releases happening under a single banner (CC2014, CC2015, etc.,) also makes it easer for users to know/talk about what version of the software they are using. For example, I have no idea what official version number PS, Muse, Illustartor, etc., are up to now, but If I say I'm running CS6 or CC2014 people will know what I'm talking about.

The suits at Adobe are freed from the feast or famine revenue cycle of the CS days and the internal dev teams are no longer under so much pressure to focus on new bells and whistles that 'demo well' so users will be enticed to upgrade to the latest version every 12 months. People from Adobe like Todd Kopriva, Steve Forde, Dennis, etc., have all commented on the positive changes made possible by the CC model and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity, but everyone has to make up their own mind as to whether or not to believe them.

The thread you linked to is a perfect example of the misinformation I'm talking about. The OP thought Adobe users would have no control over updating their software and Jim was 'predicting' how utterly horrible the plugin experience on CC was sure to become.

And I'm not saying anyone has to like CC or that there aren't things to gripe about (and there are things to gripe about) but, IMO, Adobe has been pretty clear and consistent with the moves they've been making.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 12:44:45 pm

I should be clear, im not taking about plugins breaking, or needing constant internet connecting, Adobe engineers have proven that they can maintain compatibility through the malaise. I'm taking about how it's done, and what I see from a subscriber to CC. I linked to the response specially, not to the other fears. CC 2015 seems like it should be a big deal, and while rewriting code is of course, a huge task, I just don't see the reason to version it yearly.

I see the suite getting updated on a very similar schedule (albeit the amount of updates accelerated) to CS, and I think some of the benefits have been overstated.

I just want Adobe to get better. They are working hard at it, I know, its just seems odd that CC is really like CS, and not that much different, except for the cost structure.

It's the same interface, same approach, same clickity click click on 4 different panels on a 8 buttons, wait for a preview.

Although the Lumetei Panel is pretty cool in Pr, and finally, there's usable scopes.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 1:37:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "CC 2015 seems like it should be a big deal, and while rewriting code is of course, a huge task, I just don't see the reason to version it yearly."

What would you propose instead?


[Jeremy Garchow] "I see the suite getting updated on a very similar schedule (albeit the amount of updates accelerated) to CS, and I think some of the benefits have been overstated. "

I get that. I interpreted comments like that to mean no more big annual release, too. I don't know if something changed or if I misunderstood, but there is definitely still a big annual release. That said...

The DVA "suite" is being updated with features on the same schedule a couple times a year, but that makes sense as they are deeply linked. FCPX and Motion updates go together, too, right? If you look at the release schedules of non-DVA apps like Ps, Il, Id, etc. you'll see they get feature updates on different schedules throughout the year.

Taken all together, this does actually sound "exactly" like "when an app is ready to get an update it will get that update instead of having to wait around for one specific, arbitrary time in the future when all the apps are forced to update at the same time."


[Jeremy Garchow] "I just want Adobe to get better. They are working hard at it, I know, its just seems odd that CC is really like CS, and not that much different, except for the cost structure. "

We would have said the same thing about CS compared to the individual apps, too. Cross-product integration took a while to get going, and it couldn't really start until the suite came together. CS was a development strategy as well as a marketing/sales strategy, and CC is the same.

The change is probably least evident right now in video, but things are definitely different than the were. We're seeing the first roll-outs of mobile apps like Shape [link] and Hue [link]. We're seeing new services like TypeKit [link] and Stock [link]. We're seeing new cloud-based collaboration features like Libraries [link].


[Jeremy Garchow] "It's the same interface, same approach, same clickity click click on 4 different panels on a 8 buttons, wait for a preview. "

Apps like Photoshop and After Effects would probably look a lot different than they do if you were designing them from blank paper today, instead of carrying their 20+ years of tradition/legacy/bloat/feature-set/workarounds/refinement/ecosystem with them. But I shudder to think of what my job would be like if all that infrastructure were dynamited and replaced, X-style, overnight.

I like that Adobe is trying to modernize without blowing up everyone's workflow. I don't want to manage an X-style transition on one app or another that I use every couple years.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 4:37:59 pm

[Walter Soyka] "What would you propose instead?"

Release it when it's ready like they claim.

Instead they seems to bundle it all up and release it. They wait for a yearly release and development wise, they seem to need to be released on a yearly schedule so much so that it's dated.

[Walter Soyka] "Taken all together, this does actually sound "exactly" like "when an app is ready to get an update it will get that update instead of having to wait around for one specific, arbitrary time in the future when all the apps are forced to update at the same time.""

Except when that time is about a year later and the whole suite gets an update, for three years in a row. And by the way, we will delete all you older versions for the first time ever.

FCP, Motion, and Compressor get updates at the same time yes, but sometimes, especially with Compressor and Motion, that update is just to maintain structural integrity.

It seems like I'm on a witch hunt, I'm not. I just want a faster After Effects, and I had high hopes for this latest version. CC 2017 is going to be great!

[Walter Soyka] "The change is probably least evident right now in video, but things are definitely different than the were. We're seeing the first roll-outs of mobile apps like Shape [link] and Hue [link]. We're seeing new services like TypeKit [link] and Stock [link]. We're seeing new cloud-based collaboration features like Libraries [link].
"


LIBRARIES? WHY CHANGE THE TERM?

I kid, I kid.

I know, Adobe is working hard. They are building a one stop shop on the Cloud, available for anyone with $50/mo, they are fundamentally changing how Ae works, they are adding elements of Speedgrade to Pr, and doing it by not alienating long long long (25 years of photoshop!) standing habits and maintaining a certain amount of legacy compatibility. None of that is easy. Credit where credit's due, etc.

I can't stop paying Adobe. I HAVE to have it to maintain current working relationships. I just want a better experience, I don't need another app, service, or stock agency. I need to be able to playback 4k files in Ae.

[Walter Soyka] "Apps like Photoshop and After Effects would probably look a lot different than they do if you were designing them from blank paper today, instead of carrying their 20+ years of tradition/legacy/bloat/feature-set/workarounds/refinement/ecosystem with them. But I shudder to think of what my job would be like if all that infrastructure were dynamited and replaced, X-style, overnight."

You know this, but X is hardly an overnight transition. A lot of us managed to do it. Final Cut Legend still works to this day without an update since Feb 2010 across a few OS (and architecture) changes, and many hardware changes. I know these applications would operate differently if designed from the ground up, and I know there's a client responsibility has to maintain, and that is a blessing and curse. It's just that I feel I don't have a choice with Adobe. I either learn to like it and live with the 25 year old architecture and philosophy, or lose opportunity.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 5:05:02 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Release it when it's ready like they claim. Instead they seems to bundle it all up and release it. They wait for a yearly release and development wise, they seem to need to be released on a yearly schedule so much so that it's dated."

There is a big annual release, yes. The date is in the name, yes.

But new features also come out throughout the year, at different times for different apps, instead of having to wait for the next annual release.

Still having a big annual release is not what a lot of us expected, but it's not inconsistent with products not having to wait for that big annual release to update, either. Under the old scheme, the feature releases in October, December, January and February (depending on which apps we're discussing) would have been held and rolled into the June release.


[Jeremy Garchow] "And by the way, we will delete all you older versions for the first time ever."

Yes, I think it's a poor default, but maybe there are reasonable reasons [link] for uninstalling older versions, too.


[Jeremy Garchow] "It seems like I'm on a witch hunt, I'm not. I just want a faster After Effects, and I had high hopes for this latest version. CC 2017 is going to be great!"

You and me both, brother!


[Jeremy Garchow] "I just want a better experience, I don't need another app, service, or stock agency. I need to be able to playback 4k files in Ae."

Everybody has their own one thing they need more than everybody else's one thing.

(But we do have the same one.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 7:29:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Final Cut Legend still works to this day without an update since Feb 2010 across a few OS (and architecture) changes, and many hardware changes."

I heard from somewhere or other that it still works in El Capitan. Funny how everyone got so mad at Apple for "killing" FCP 7 and "forcing" people to move to X or something. Still works pretty well for an allegedly dead app.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Lawrence
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 11:57:54 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I like that Adobe is trying to modernize without blowing up everyone's workflow. I don't want to manage an X-style transition on one app or another that I use every couple years."


It's just too bad they decided to modernize by blowing up over half their customers business models.

I think this 2015 release confirms what those of us who've been asking for a buy-out option have been saying since day one. CC is CS with some optional online tools and an always-on internet dongle to force payment of rent. The only thing preventing sale of perpetual copies of CC desktop software is Adobe management and Wall Street stubbornness. We're in year three of a long game. I don't expect anything to change for another year or two, but I predict Adobe will eventually discover that the "Like it or leave" approach to customer relations is not sustainable.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:23:29 am

[David Lawrence] "It's just too bad they decided to modernize by blowing up over half their customers business models."

Touché. ;)


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Jim Wiseman
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 6:01:28 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jun 19, 2015 at 10:15:45 pm

EDIT: Sorry David, thought you were referring to Apple and FCPX re business models. Adobe certainly blew up my plans when they went rental only. Was getting into Premiere CS6, and then that. Kablooey! No need to reiterate how that affected things. Refuse to hand over my projects to a pay or no play. the Adobe workflow was still there, I just couldn't be. Forcing me toward FCPX, and so far, I'm liking it. YMMV. Even using Media 100 again, as you may have noticed. Tracks and all. Unlike most here I also have no need for AE, so that certainly colors my opinion.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 6:41:13 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " I linked to the response specially, not to the other fears. CC 2015 seems like it should be a big deal, and while rewriting code is of course, a huge task, I just don't see the reason to version it yearly."

I know you linked to the response directly, but the discuss in the rest of the thread illustrated what I was talking about as well. One thread killed two birds and I didn't want to waste a stone by throwing it in gift horse's mouth (or something like that).

As a consumer I don't necessarily see the need for annual upgrades for most software but at some point someone got the 'annual upgrade' ball rolling and everyone had to join in or risk being left behind (or worse, perceived as being lazy/slow/unable to keep up with the competition). I mean, Mac OS and FCP updates used to be every two years too and, IIRC, there was like a 3-4yr gap between Windows XP and Vista. Now it's a comparative flood of updates (even worse if you factor in mobile apps).

People want it more, they want it cheaper and they want it better than it ever has been. Tough spot for any company to be in.

If this was CS land do you think Adobe would've gotten away with not bumping AE up to the next version (CC2014 is 13.2 and CC2015 is 13.5)? How loud would the web-rage be from users feeling 'ripped off' that Adobe is trying to charge for the same version of AE twice (regardless of all the money and work that has gone into rebuilding and improving the guts of AE)?

For reasons already mentioned (and mostly agreed upon) I think it makes since for a Adobe to do major releases all at once with minor releases on a 'when it's ready' basis. It's a flexibility that didn't exist in CS land even if Adobe is only flexing it partially right now as opposed to all the way.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I just want Adobe to get better. They are working hard at it, I know, its just seems odd that CC is really like CS, and not that much different, except for the cost structure. "

I guess it boils down to where the expectations came from. I paid more attention to what Adobe said than what the Internet said and based on that, and what seems sensible given the apps in question, I think Adobe has been consistent with the execution of of its public message.

Though I do think Adobe should offer a buyout option, should have price/package tiers (like they did for CS) and Adobe Stock should have a 'free for CC members' tier that gives CC subscribers some free images each month. I certainly do want to Adobe to increase the overall value of CC for subscribers (not just release new apps) but I guess I'm willing to give them time because it's a pretty big ship to maneuver.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 7:39:43 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "If this was CS land do you think Adobe would've gotten away with not bumping AE up to the next version (CC2014 is 13.2 and CC2015 is 13.5)? How loud would the web-rage be from users feeling 'ripped off' that Adobe is trying to charge for the same version of AE twice (regardless of all the money and work that has gone into rebuilding and improving the guts of AE)? "

That's a loaded question.

I didn't have to keep paying for it. If I didn't like the development, I didn't buy the upgrade. I am now constantly paying for it, and constantly reading the yearly press releases. I do not mind the rental model, but I do feel underwhelmed when it comes to After Effects, especially when you look at what Pr has done in the same amount of time.

It's going on 2 years now, that Ae was supposed to get a speed bump. Just leave all that shit out if it's not ready. Isn't this the advantage? Release it when it's ready? It's not ready. don't release it.

So, let's walk this back. I AM paying for it and it's not here. Oh, Yay! More cheap stock footage! Just what we need!

Development, and the pace of it, was a major selling point for CC. This was not a secret.

[Andrew Kimery] "I paid more attention to what Adobe said than what the Internet said and based on that, and what seems sensible given the apps in question, I think Adobe has been consistent with the execution of of its public message."

This is all I am going on. I linked to an Adobe response specifically about one of the specifics issue we are chatting about. Nothing else. As regards to overall Ae speed, there's official language somewhere, I'm sure it's on one of the Adobe blogs from 2012 or 2013.

You know how everyone talks about FCPX being faster, and those that don't really use X say, how can it be that much faster? It's a difficult speed test as editing is hard to speed test, but for me personally, I will say that X allows more creativity more quickly for a number of reasons and in a number of different ways. People will take that subjectively as it's subjective.

In the case of graphics/compositing, I can literally show you how much faster Motion is doing the exact same thing with the exact same plugins at the exact same quality (and most of the time much higher) than Ae. We can start with a simple playback of a file without any effects. Sh*tty 'ole Motion that never gets updated and is scoffed upon by the world at large and is over 10 years old.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 9:13:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's a loaded question."

I don't think it's a loaded question. I think it's a reasonable, if hypothetical, example of peoples' differing mindsets under two different payment schemes. Neither of which is inherently better than the other. IMO, under the old business model it would have been ugly (really ugly) if Adobe unveiled 13.5 as the replacement for 13.2 (unless it was a free upgrade but that could've run afoul of SOX ;)). Of course that's just a symptom of a greater problem with customers in general which is everybody wants something different and everybody is convinced they should be priority number one.


[Jeremy Garchow] "This is all I am going on. I linked to an Adobe response specifically about one of the specifics issue we are chatting about. Nothing else."

Right. Adobe said they can/will release feature upgrades at will, as opposed to only annually, and they have been doing that.

The sticking point seems to be that you thought Adobe would drop major releases at will but you've also said that it makes sense to coordinate major releases of apps for cross-compatibility reasons. And if we are sticking with the whole suite motif then releasing a suite piecemeal doesn't seem logical so we are where we are. Adobe drops major releases all at once under the CCYEAR banner and smaller features are added throughout the year for whatever app is ready for them.

If Adobe just had a couple of apps I'm sure the process could be more dynamic, but with so many apps you've got to maintain more control. One example is just to help stem off version confusion among users. For example, it's certainly easier knowing that all the CC2014 apps 'go together' as opposed to having to remember all the individual version numbers for each app and which versions play nice together (ex. Prelude 2, PPro 7, and AE 12 go together, Prelude 3, PPro 8 and AE 13.2 go together, Prelude 4, PPro 9 and AE 13.5 go together, etc.,).

[Jeremy Garchow] ". I do not mind the rental model, but I do feel underwhelmed when it comes to After Effects, especially when you look at what Pr has done in the same amount of time. "

I can understand that and if I was a heavy AE user I might feel the same way. It's also part of the 'problem' of having a more mature, established app. I think mature apps in general were part of Adobe's problem as they became their biggest competitor in a sense. New features vs under-the-hood improvements... a balancing act for all devs.

[Jeremy Garchow] "As regards to overall Ae speed, there's official language somewhere, I'm sure it's on one of the Adobe blogs from 2012 or 2013."

I'm sure general speed improvements are listed every year (for every program from every software company ;)) but the blog post that gets referenced all the time about the AE team primarily focusing on speeding up AE is from January 1st, 2014.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2014/01/happy-new-year-and-a-question.h...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:15:26 am

We're going to keep chasing our tails here.

[Andrew Kimery] " Of course that's just a symptom of a greater problem with customers in general which is everybody wants something different and everybody is convinced they should be priority number one.
"


You wouldn't have had the announcements or suggestions, quite like the blog post you linked to (and I was actually thinking of the blog post that was linked in there, which has the feature requests going back to 2011) without CC because of SOX or whatever. The first feature request, of course in many facets, "make it faster". Lots of work was done on tweaking the shit out of the cache. Tweaked and tweaked, great efforts, brilliant ideas, same cache. No GPU except for extrusion.

So with CC, and with these up front communications, and development being pegged as a priority, you'd think it would get better since 2011, or 2012. Don't you? Almost every other app in the suite has gotten a ton of love, and some more have sprung up that no one I know uses, will use, or even downloads. So, am I wrong here? Adobe, themselves, not bloggers, not pundits, not me, have made up the fact that a lot of people have wanted Ae to go faster, and Adobe keeps pointing out they are working on it, for years.

[Andrew Kimery] "Right. Adobe said they can/will release feature upgrades at will, as opposed to only annually, and they have been doing that."

Again, we are like this.



They release feature updates at will. Every year.

You seem to think that Adobe couldn't release After Effects v2016 without Pr being updated with ALL the updates scheduled for Pr 2016. If Pr needs an update to maintain compatibility for dynamic link, or whatever, for Ae 2016, why not just push s small a little update the completes just that, just like Apple does with Motion and Compressor when X gets big updates? Nothing more, nothing less. They wait. They have a year, they make a list, and push out big yearly updates. "At will" is highly scheduled.

[Andrew Kimery] "It's also part of the 'problem' of having a more mature, established app."

Yeah yeah. All of the core apps in CC are old and established, it really is why Adobe could have done what they did with CC (just like Apple is the only company that could have done what they did with FCS). I know what Adobe is doing is hard work, but they've put in a lot of hard work on the cache and render, and literally, in a year, most of those options are deleted and undone. Literally, the years of work on the cache and render have vanished from the preferences.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:43:31 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "We're going to keep chasing our tails here. "

Yup. I think we've both throughly established our POVs.


Until the next thread!


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 3:47:56 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "The first feature request, of course in many facets, "make it faster". Lots of work was done on tweaking the shit out of the cache. Tweaked and tweaked, great efforts, brilliant ideas, same cache. No GPU except for extrusion."

In every previous version of After Effects, the UI and the renderer were linked. One working blocked the other. The bulk of the work evident in 13.5 is the separation of the UI and the renderer. I don't think any other meaningful acceleration could have happened without taking this first major step -- redesigning the fundamental After Effects architecture without breaking everything else.


[Jeremy Garchow] "I know what Adobe is doing is hard work, but they've put in a lot of hard work on the cache and render, and literally, in a year, most of those options are deleted and undone. Literally, the years of work on the cache and render have vanished from the preferences."

If by "render" you mean multiprocessing, please understand that multiprocessing was horribly inefficient, in large part because it was a very old hack that lived on past its expiration date.

If by the cache being "deleted and undone" you are referring to the feature of caching in the background, see above -- that feature depended on multiprocessing, and the entire point of this release is getting to a place where system resources can (finally) be efficiently used.

None of the hard work on the cache is gone.

See here for more:

http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2015/06/features-not-available-in-after...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 4:23:19 am

[Walter Soyka] "In every previous version of After Effects, the UI and the renderer were linked. One working blocked the other. The bulk of the work evident in 13.5 is the separation of the UI and the renderer. I don't think any other meaningful acceleration could have happened without taking this first major step -- redesigning the fundamental After Effects architecture without breaking everything else."

I understand, and I know you're pscyhed about it. Your enthusiasm keeps me enthused, and I know it's hard work, but it only took a year to functionally remove all the weird shit that had been built up with the cache, and yes, a lot of it is gone already. That's what I mean by gone, and been replaced by other hard work.


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Walter Soyka
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 9:42:41 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I didn't have to keep paying for it. If I didn't like the development, I didn't buy the upgrade. I am now constantly paying for it, and constantly reading the yearly press releases. I do not mind the rental model, but I do feel underwhelmed when it comes to After Effects, especially when you look at what Pr has done in the same amount of time."

What's happened with Ae is not necessarily immediately impressive, but was really necessary for Ae to get any of the performance improvements we all want to see in the future. I think the CC model is a lot more amenable to this kind of work than the old sales model.

I'm not sure it would have gone over so well for most of the Ae team to spend more than a year focused on a major re-architecture project and then release 13.5 as a paid CS9 upgrade. In fact, I think that's part of why this architecture has persisted so long; "slightly less slow now, stay tuned for more" would look terrible in the press release.

The magnitude of what has been done in Ae is huge, even if what shows is still small. This is the most exciting release for me since CS5 and 64-bit, because it shows the Ae team is working to make the fundamentals modern. It means (to me) that Ae will not be haunted by its own legacy the way products like DS and XSI were before their EOL, or the way products like Smoke maybe are today.

Yes, there is still a long way to go, but surely we've all worked on projects where a lot of background "axe-sharpening" work has to get done before we can start doing the things that impress the clients?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jim Wiseman
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:47:25 am
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jun 18, 2015 at 1:24:52 am

I do think Simon, who has actually developed plug-ins, seemed to agree plug-in incompatibilities could be a real problem with constant new releases. I don't think I was "predicting" it would happen, I just thought it could be an actual risk, and I think there was some agreement on that point.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.2.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.6, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500, Helios 2 w 2-960GB SSDs: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz, 24Gb RAM, GTX-680, 960GB SSD: Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Dennis Radeke
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 10:36:22 am

Hi guys, I have been busy and have taken on an additional role at Adobe so not as active recently. Still trying to jump in when I can. I will just take Jeremy's reply as typical in this thread (or at least part of it). Hope to jump in more soon.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I just want a faster Ae, is that so wrong? :)"

Well, wish fulfilled. This version of AE is faster in the key sense of disconnecting the UI and Render threads. you will find that you can add elements, effects, tweak parameters to a layer while the comp is previewing and it won't stop. To me this is absolutely huge. They're working on more too.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I see "CC 2015" right next to "CC 2014", I see the big marketing blitz, I see the some of the features touted months ago, and........yeah."

We delivered what we showed at NAB, is that so wrong? I guess you would have preferred that we showed less and then surprised you? It's like sneaking into to your parent's closet and peeking at the Christmas gifts before Christmas? Well, if this is the penalty of Adobe being transparent and communicative, then I will choose it EVERY...SINGLE...TIME...

Dennis
Adobe guy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 19, 2015 at 11:44:54 am

Yes, Dennis. I do like good surprises.

I had high hopes for Ae being faster. It's been teased (yes) for a really long time. People have asked for it for a really long time. That blog post borders on patronization. (What if we did what you want...well we won't...but we know you want it...and if we did it would be great! Tell us how much you want it. So we hear that's what you want! We will think about it. Comments closed and deleted). I'm asking you frankly and honestly in an Internet forum, is that an example of open and honest communication to you?

Mature software is supposed to be difficult, but Adobe has shown there's ways of handling it.

I appreciate how hard the work is. I appreciate that it's hard to do. I appreciate how hard everyone is working. I appreciate you being here.

I would just like to see it released when it's ready, like the CC model is supposed to provide. I don't find this version to be faster if we are being honest and open.


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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 12:50:23 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "CC2015 uninstalling old apps by default is new though and a rather unwelcome, IMO, default behavior. Having the option is nice, but the default should be to leave everything in place."

I was doing some testing with co-installed preview versions for a review and quite frankly had some issues. These were all cleaned up when I did the release install and got rid of the CC2014 versions. So I'm happy to see it that way.

I work in a few shops that are running several copies simultaneously and it's a huge PITA. You're always having to check what a project was cut in to stay compatible. Part of their reason for doing that was installation issue on a few machines. They have a corporate Enterprise account, which is managed by the corporate engineering department in another city. Quite a pain.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 7:24:36 pm

[Oliver Peters] "These were all cleaned up when I did the release install and got rid of the CC2014 versions."

Anyone know if there's a way to remove old versions after the fact? reinstall 2015? As I like to do, I updated in mid-project and frankly, am having some... issues. Audio related, and no show-stoppers, but I'd be happy if they went away. Maybe having old versions installed is the problem...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 7:28:44 pm

You can remove any app from the Creative Cloud application.

Looks like this:



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Oliver Peters
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 7:43:37 pm

[Charlie Austin] "
Anyone know if there's a way to remove old versions after the fact? reinstall 2015?"


Every app has an uninstaller in the app's folder. Just run the uninstaller for each app, even new ones. Then from the CC desktop, just install the apps again that you want.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mitch Ives
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 2:27:39 pm

This was an interesting phenomenon.

Before I even heard from Adobe about this release, a plugin manufacturer emailed me first warning me not to remove the old version, since there was a bug in the new release that disabled certain plugins Adobe had acknowledged it and was working on it. Haven't seen that before...

Also, is it true that "remove all previous versions" is the default and that you have to go search for that setting so you can uncheck it before you install in order to avoid disappointment? If so, that's lame...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 4:10:52 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Also, is it true that "remove all previous versions" is the default and that you have to go search for that setting so you can uncheck it before you install in order to avoid disappointment? If so, that's lame...
"


You have to click Advanced Settings after you click "Update All" and find the checkbox to keep older versions.


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Andy Field
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 10:30:40 pm

which plug in isn't compatible?

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Tim Wilson
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 17, 2015 at 11:22:09 pm

I'm actually going to do a separate post about plug-ins.

We've gotten press releases from GenArts (Sapphire), Boris (both the Boris plugs and Mocha), and Red Giant, that all their stuff is good to go.

No reason for people not to continue posting here of course, but a separate thread will be easier to track....


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Mitch Ives
Re: OTish: Adobe Release
on Jun 18, 2015 at 12:29:15 am

RE:vision was the first I saw... it's not something they can fix apparently its Adobe that will fix it.

Hopefully, Adobe will tweak it before others report it...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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