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Are NLEs like bicycles?

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Andrew Kimery
Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 7:27:20 pm

This one is for you, Bill.

Step 1. Watch this 8 minute video about learning how to ride bike where the handlebar movement has been reversed (left turns you right, right turns you left).

http://dailyliked.net/backwards-brain-bicycle/

Step 2. Debate (what else?)

Seeing this video made me think of Bill (and others, but mostly Bill) talking about how moving to X can be a struggle for experienced editors but at some point it just clicks and it's smooth sailing from then on. Until, of course, you have to go back to another NLE and you struggle to reconnect those neural pathways again. One thing I wonder, and he doesn't address it in the video, is if he alternated riding a normal bike and a backwards bike on a regular basis would he always go through a 're-learning' stage or could riding both bikes become second nature?

-Andrew


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Christopher Travis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 7:41:01 pm

This is essentially what I've been dealing with for the last 12-18 months.

Back when I only ever used one NLE (FCP7) I would look jealously over at the growing capabilities of other NLEs and wish my clients would just move on so that I can play with all the shiny new toys. However, now that this has happened, I find myself jumping from one system to another with each job. FCP 7 for two weeks, then Avid for a month, then premiere for 2 weeks, then back to Avid and so on and so on (no FCPX as of yet since there's not much call for that here in London as far as I can see, but I'm sure it's coming). Maybe I'll get used to this in time but I still find I take at least a morning to get comfortable again, and a couple of days before I'm back in the rhythm, using all the keyboard shortcuts etc.

I find it much more stressful now as when I start with a new client on an NLE I haven't used in a while, and crucially when I've just been using another one for a long period, I find that on top of taking on board the demands of the new job, I'm rewiring my brain to their NLE and feeling frustrated that I'm not as fast as I was on whatever I was using last week. Particularly if it's a new client, I worry that I might look inexperienced.

So far so good tough, and none of this is the end of the world, it's just another little stress to add to the many that already exist in the life of a freelancer. On the plus side I'm pretty sure all this mental gymnastics is going to help stave off dementia for a while longer at least...


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Dan Stewart
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 8:20:48 pm
Last Edited By Dan Stewart on May 20, 2015 at 8:32:43 pm

I agree. This is why I was/am so furious with Apple for capriciously dropping FCPC. All that effort thrown away to some hipster programmer's whim.
Never forgive, never forget. (I haven't touched another NLE professionally since that fateful day and life is easier [though more limited]).



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 8:56:39 pm

[Dan Stewart] "I agree. This is why I was/am so furious with Apple for capriciously dropping FCPC. All that effort thrown away to some hipster programmer's whim.
Never forgive, never forget. (I haven't touched another NLE professionally since that fateful day and life is easier [though more limited])."




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David Mathis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 8:14:04 pm

I felt this way when migrating from Avid to FCP 3 (still have the software). In a couple of afternoon sessions, got the hang of it. When the new version came out, short circuit in the brain felt real, this one took more time to master. Where did the tracks go? Why does it move clips up or down the timeline the way it does? Is this thing possessed?

A bigger challenge was trying to find out what events, projects and libraries were, even trying to figure how they work together. Previous versions, concept was simple. Top of the food chain was a project which had sequences made up of clips. That knowledge made learning FCP 3 easy, just learning a slightly different interface. That was no so cut and dry when X came into existence.

Things changed after watching various videos, it began to click. The challenge is explaining how everything works to someone using a traditional tracked based editor. Even more fun is patching and assigning tracks if you not have done that in awhile.

That video was spot on, new perspective on things now. I want to try that bike out, but with three wheels. At least I won't be tumbling over every couple of feet.


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Mark Raudonis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 9:00:32 pm

Andrew,

What a great video! Thanks for sharing.

This video has to be the absolute best explanation of why we've all been arguing about FCP-X since it's debut years ago. The "backwards steering" bicycle experiment proves that when we're hardwired to perform something it's VERY difficult to change that. I'd take it a step further and ask the question, is a "backwards steering bike" a BETTER bicycle? I don't see any proof of that. Different, yes. Better... the experimenter never says. THAT'S what counts for most people. If you can show me that it's worth relearning all of my motor skills, then I'll do it. If at the end of the day,. all I'm doing is batting left handed instead of righty, then what's the point.

Oh, and as for Bill... he doesn't ride a bike. That's so '80's (1880!) He rides a hover skateboard like Michael J. Fox in Back to the Future!

Mark



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Mark Suszko
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 9:32:47 pm

The bike analogy was less impressive to those of us that fly model airplanes, because making it turn the right direction is a problem that changes from moment to moment, depending on if the plane is coming towards you or going away. Though right and left stick are the same when you're flying inverted.

Similarly, sailboats that use a tiller teach you to push left to get right rudder.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 9:43:04 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on May 19, 2015 at 9:43:48 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Similarly, sailboats that use a tiller teach you to push left to get right rudder."

Same with riding a motorcycle (and a bicycle actually), push right, turn left and vice-versa...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Mark Smith
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 11:39:45 pm

Bicycles work the same way as motorcycles as long as you are above about 13mph in speed. Its called Countersteering ..


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 12:29:17 am

[Mark Suszko] "The bike analogy was less impressive to those of us that fly model airplanes, because making it turn the right direction is a problem that changes from moment to moment"

Mark, I will now compare this to the "learning fresh" vs "re-learning" from another format.

My Dad flew free-flight models as a kid. No controls, just set the control surfaces and launch it. Then go find it where it lands.

He became a fixed-wing pilot as an adult, Cessnas, Pipers etc.

THEN when he retired, he took up R/C (radio control) models. It was the hardest thing to learn to use the joysticks, because as you note, when the plane turns and comes back toward you, right becomes left, left becomes right. In an instant. The skill is similar to using a geared Worrell tripod head on a big studio camera. (You practice the constant reversing of directions by doing figure eights or following the second hand of a big clock.)

The other guys in the model club, who had never flown, had a much easier time learning the skill. He had to "unlearn" he actual piloting to master this odd earth-bound skill. He crashed a few models doing so!

Doug D


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Charlie Austin
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 9:42:01 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " alternated riding a normal bike and a backwards bike on a regular basis would he always go through a 're-learning' stage or could riding both bikes become second nature?"

It's second nature.

I literally do the NLE analog of this every day. I cut stuff in 7 and Pr and X concurrently. X because I prefer it, 7 and/or Pr to more easily swap sequences with other folks here who are clinging to 7. That's right, I said clinging. ;-) I'm still looking for a good reason to cut in MC, which I own, but it's not my fave and nobody here uses uses it so I'm neglecting that one...

Seriously, I'll cut different spots in a couple NLE's and CMD-TAB from one to another. Sure, there's the occasional KB shortcut mixup, but it's really no big deal.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 19, 2015 at 11:12:06 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Seriously, I'll cut different spots in a couple NLE's and CMD-TAB from one to another. Sure, there's the occasional KB shortcut mixup, but it's really no big deal."

I'm not sure how that could be true.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 4:10:03 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Charlie Austin] "Seriously, I'll cut different spots in a couple NLE's and CMD-TAB from one to another. Sure, there's the occasional KB shortcut mixup, but it's really no big deal."

I'm not sure how that could be true."


Well, it is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Gary Huff
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 5:56:03 am
Last Edited By Gary Huff on May 20, 2015 at 5:56:21 am

[Charlie Austin] "Sure, there's the occasional KB shortcut mixup, but it's really no big deal."

Ditto.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 2:09:46 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Sure, there's the occasional KB shortcut mixup, but it's really no big deal."

Exactly. Doing work in Premiere recently was familiar and easy as was the "learning curve". If ya know 7 or MC, then you pretty much know Premiere and vice-versa. For me, Media Composer is the most unfamiliar now, which is very odd to say as I spent years cutting on those systems. That said, IF a Media Composer job comes my way for any reason (and I haven't seen freelance MC jobs out my way in over two years), I am sure I can easily get back into the swing.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Steve Connor
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 2:53:55 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "That said, IF a Media Composer job comes my way for any reason (and I haven't seen freelance MC jobs out my way in over two years), I am sure I can easily get back into the swing."

I spent years working on Avid, and I struggle badly to get into the swing of it on the rare occasions I have to!

Premiere to FCPX is a breeze


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 12:00:17 am

Fascinating video, thank you Andrew.

With regards to FCPX, I think the reason many editors (myself included) find the transition difficult is because it involves more that just re-adapting muscle memory. If it were just a matter of learning new keystrokes, it would be easy.

But FCPX also requires learning a unfamiliar and inconsistent object behavior model in the timeline. To use FCPX well, an editor needs to understand not just how to place objects in the timeline space, but also the hierarchical relationships between the objects, as well as between objects and containers, and between the containers themselves. In essence, the editor needs to internalize the FCPX timeline data model, in order to get good at using it.

Clearly, many editors willing to make the effort are happy with their efficiency after they get to that point. But speaking as someone who's never considered "clip collisions" a problem, for me, the magnetic timeline is still a backwards steering bike. ;)

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tony west
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 4:03:51 pm

[David Lawrence] "speaking as someone who's never considered "clip collisions" a problem, for me, the magnetic timeline is still a backwards steering bike. ;)
"


I think you hit on something here David that I see sometimes, that we don't really discuss on the forum and I think it causes folks to talk past each other on some points..

That line implies that others may have had a "problem" with clip collisions. Unlike you. (In a way it's a little like what you accuse Bill of doing but in the reverse, to stay with the thread : )

BTW I enjoy reading your post David, I hope this is not taken as a swipe.

I don't think people saw it as a "problem". That was just the way people cut. We ALL cut that way. Now there is a different option.

It's like when someone sends me an email with an address. Before, I would cut and paste that info into a map search.

Now when I touch that address in the iPhone it just goes right to the spot on the map. I prefer that. I find it more efficient. It has nothing to do with me thinking cut and paste is a "problem". I have been cutting and pasting for a long time.

I want that map to just open though.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 9:19:28 pm

[tony west] "That line implies that others may have had a "problem" with clip collisions. Unlike you. (In a way it's a little like what you accuse Bill of doing but in the reverse, to stay with the thread : )

BTW I enjoy reading your post David, I hope this is not taken as a swipe.

I don't think people saw it as a "problem". That was just the way people cut. We ALL cut that way. Now there is a different option."


Hi Tony, appreciate the comment, no swipe taken :)

I wasn't meaning to imply that other editors have "problems" with "clip collisions". I agree with you that this is simply something we all learn to deal with.

Actually, my dig is at Apple for their assumption that clip collisions are such a big problem for so many editors that the whole timeline UI should be designed around solving it!

I don't mean to suggest that creating a new timeline model that addresses clip collisions is a bad thing. Just the opposite, I think it's a brilliant idea in theory. But I think Apple blew an opportunity to do a better job by not talking to and understanding their users. The magnetic timeline solves problems, but it also creates new ones. The UI design seems very engineer-driven rather than user driven to me. My point being, data models don't usually make for the best user experience design.

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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 9:38:48 pm

[David Lawrence] "I don't mean to suggest that creating a new timeline model that addresses clip collisions is a bad thing. Just the opposite, I think it's a brilliant idea in theory. But I think Apple blew an opportunity to do a better job by not talking to and understanding their users. The magnetic timeline solves problems, but it also creates new ones. The UI design seems very engineer-driven rather than user driven to me. My point being, data models don't usually make for the best user experience design."

David, Why do you assume that they created the magnetic timeline just for clip collisions or to solve a problem? Did someone at Apple say that?

I see the magnetic timeline as one of a number of features in FCPX that allow me to edit faster, more efficiently, and more creatively. Rather than solve problems (which it may also do), the magnetic timeline reveals new creative pathways; it opens up the editing space and makes it more freeform. It gets the UI out of the way so that we can just edit, which, for me at least, is the ultimate in user experience design. Premiere and FCP7 feel more engineer-driven now than they used to in comparison; I think students prove this point too.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 10:17:57 pm

[James Culbertson] "Premiere and FCP7 feel more engineer-driven now than they used to in comparison; I think students prove this point too."

How so? Premiere Pro seems to have incorporated more user feedback into it's design and functionality than ever before... certainly more so than in the pre CS days.

Shawn



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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 10:39:24 pm

[Shawn Miller] "[James Culbertson] "Premiere and FCP7 feel more engineer-driven now than they used to in comparison; I think students prove this point too."

How so? Premiere Pro seems to have incorporated more user feedback into it's design and functionality than ever before... certainly more so than in the pre CS days."


More than feel or using of the interface than the features themselves.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 10:56:33 pm

[James Culbertson] "[Shawn Miller] "[James Culbertson] "Premiere and FCP7 feel more engineer-driven now than they used to in comparison; I think students prove this point too."

How so? Premiere Pro seems to have incorporated more user feedback into it's design and functionality than ever before... certainly more so than in the pre CS days."

More than feel or using of the interface than the features themselves."


So, what in PPro CC 2014 feels like engineer driven design vs user driven design?

Shawn



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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 11:13:20 pm

[Shawn Miller] "So, what in PPro CC 2014 feels like engineer driven design vs user driven design?"

Like I said it is a feel thing. FCPX feels more user friendly to me, more intuitive, more free form. It gets out of the way more and I just work.

I felt the same about FCP7 relative to AVID MC when I first took it up.

But then, this whole discussion is about how we each feel. There are no absolutes in this kind of comparison, so it comes down to personal preference.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 11:40:15 pm
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 20, 2015 at 11:41:13 pm

[James Culbertson] "David, Why do you assume that they created the magnetic timeline just for clip collisions or to solve a problem? Did someone at Apple say that?"

I'm not assuming, this is exactly what Apple told the professional editing community when they revealed FCPX at NAB 2011. Here's the proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-77beFICSlI#t=15m35s

Some things to notice:
"I have no way of establishing relationships between primary and secondary content"
A laughable demo. Let's make a sloppy selection and intentionally throw sync. Psst - ever heard of grouping clips? It works really well for keeping them together.

Plus, their notion of "primary" and "secondary" content is so full of assumption I don't know where to begin. What do they mean by "primary? What do they mean by "secondary?" Do they understand that for many editors, establishing these relationships is a fluid, constantly shifting process? I have a feeling if they bothered to talk to someone like Herb S., they'd be surprised by how he thinks about "primary" and "secondary" content. Especially with audio.

Notice how many times he uses the word "problem".
"in this situation, you've got a problem. You've got a collision in this track"
Clip collisions are a "problem". Timelines are "fragile". Editors are "mistake"prone. This is Apple's language and these are the Apple's assumptions which they propose to solve with the magnetic timeline.

What they fail to mention (or seem to understand) are the new problems the magnetic timeline creates for certain established workflows. If the engineers and UX designers had bothered to actually talk to FCP users during development, they might have made a much better, more universally accepted program.

This demo is classic marketing fluff. And despite the applause you hear at this sneak, the eventual release alienated a significant portion of the professional editing community for good reason.

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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 11:57:34 pm

[David Lawrence] "I'm not assuming, this is exactly what Apple told the professional editing community when they revealed FCPX at NAB 2011. Here's the proof:"

Interesting.

In practice, in my experience, the magnetic (and trackless) timeline is more important for its new more efficient (and freeform) way of allowing us to edit. Any problems it may or may not solve are secondary to me. Classic law of unintended consequences I guess.

In any case, this debate is entirely about personal preference. Nothing wrong with that; it is always interesting to hear how others experience things.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:23:21 am

[James Culbertson] "Interesting.

In practice, in my experience, the magnetic (and trackless) timeline is more important for its new more efficient (and freeform) way of allowing us to edit. Any problems it may or may not solve are secondary to me. Classic law of unintended consequences I guess.

In any case, this debate is entirely about personal preference. Nothing wrong with that; it is always interesting to hear how others experience things."


Absolutely! :)

FCPX has come a long way since 2011. I like the fact that it now brings a new professional choice to the table. It's great that editors like yourself have found a better way to work. I also like the fact that it's been a catalyst for competing NLE vendors to really step up their game. I even use it myself now - well, the ingest and organizing parts at least. But that "editorial engine"... for me it's still a backwards steering bike. Totally a preference thing!

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tony west
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 4:20:48 am

[David Lawrence] "A laughable demo"

I take your point David about Apple feeling like they were solving "problems"

Thanks for reposting this. I had forgotten how bad a job the presenter did. Just in terms of how nervous he was and stumbling all over his words.

How he didn't even have the program there to actually show how it worked. He just described how it worked and kind of poorly.

But given all that, what jumps out at me are the reactions.

They loved it.


[David Lawrence] "despite the applause you hear at this sneak, the eventual release alienated a significant portion of the professional editing community"

That's what get's me though David. The people in that room were reacting to what they saw in realtime.

Before they were told by others that they should hate it, they liked it : )


[David Lawrence] "If the engineers and UX designers had bothered to actually talk to FCP users during development,"

I just don't believe they didn't talk to FCP users. It just doesn't make sense to me.
When Schechtman took to that window to give that presentation back in 11, there was no way he knew that program in that kind of detail in that short time period. He had his hands on that program way out.
They were listening to him, and there is no way he was the only one.

When Evan showed up, it was impossible to make the argument that he had never seen that program.

Just my take.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 8:19:55 am

[tony west] "That's what get's me though David. The people in that room were reacting to what they saw in realtime.

Before they were told by others that they should hate it, they liked it : )"


I responded the same way too, Tony. I wasn't in the room at NAB but a buddy of mine was and he msged me photos and texted what he was seeing as it happened. I watched the demo on YouTube the instant it hit and was thrilled. I remember calling my partners in LA with excitement about the new version of FCP we'd be upgrading our studio to, and how powerful and cheap it was going to be.

And then a couple months later it was released. I downloaded it, opened it up and my jaw hit the floor.

What I (and I think a lot of other people) assumed was that the demo was showing off the big new features. What I imagined was that this new version would have all the capabilities of FCP7 but done a new way with these amazing new features added.

I was shocked that the NAB demo (which was framed as a sneak peak) was basically all the program did. That many professional features I depended on were completely stripped away. The final blow was seeing that it couldn't open any of my FCP projects but opened iMovie projects just fine. I was pissed. That led me and my brother to make a certain YouTube Hitler meme video that went viral, lol.


[tony west] "I had forgotten how bad a job the presenter did. Just in terms of how nervous he was and stumbling all over his words.

How he didn't even have the program there to actually show how it worked. He just described how it worked and kind of poorly."


The presenter is Peter Steinauer, Apple's Senior Software Engineer/Application Architect for Video Applications. FCPX is his baby. Watching this clip, he doesn't seem nervous or stumbling to me at all. Quite the opposite. I now find his presentation arrogant, condescending and revealing. Especially this section:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-77beFICSlI#t=21m05s

Here he's comparing a FCP7 timeline with the same timeline in FCPX. Of course, what he's conveniently not telling the audience is that it's impossible to open the FCP7 timeline in FCPX. How do you think the crowd would have reacted to that minor detail?

Then there's this statement:
This is what that same sequence looks like in the new Final Cut Pro. Every single edit that was in the previous one is in this. Every single cut at every single frame is in this sequence, (note - he calls it a sequence not a project!) but because of compound clips, clip connections and the magnetic timeline I've got a much more easy to understand sequence that I can actually do more interesting things with...

Much more easy to understand? What a joke! The FCP7 timeline is a crystal clear map of the final program. Every media element is visible and at the editor's fingertips. It's impossible to tell WTF is happening in the FCPX timeline because so much is hidden. And btw, there's no way to see the hidden media in context because compound clips open in their own timelines.

The FCPX timeline looks simpler, but is it easier for an editor to read and understand? No way!

This demo is being given by an engineer, not a video editor. The presenter's assumptions and language the reveal this. What we wind up with are UX design decisions reflecting engineering values. To an engineer, the FCPX timeline is more clear because it's simpler. But a video editor might well say that it's less useful, because it hides so much vital information. To an engineer, the clip connections, compound clips, and the magnetic timeline, make "interesting" things possible like moving chunks around without "damaging" the program. A video editor might say that's great, but what about the times it gets in the way?

I don't mean to imply that there aren't innovative ideas here. There definitely are. But there are also some unnecessary design flaws and unintended consequences that could have easily been avoided. Maybe they'll get addressed sometime in the next five years, lol!

And don't get me started on the demo of the precision editor. From the language he uses, it seems clear these developers have no idea how experienced editors do precision trimming (hint, it's usually done by feel with looping and the keyboard).

[tony west] "When Evan showed up, it was impossible to make the argument that he had never seen that program."

I'm sure they gave out preview copies, but I sincerely doubt they incorporated any critical feedback. The bottom line is Apple built the video editor they wanted to build.

And I say hooray for that. It was a mess when they released it but ever since they fixed libraries, it's been quite fine and great choice for everyone who likes it. And it's certainly made the NLE playing field a lot more interesting!

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tony west
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 2:29:46 pm
Last Edited By tony west on May 21, 2015 at 4:52:16 pm

[David Lawrence] " I was pissed. That led me and my brother to make a certain YouTube Hitler meme video that went viral, lol."

hahaha I had no idea that was you David : )


[David Lawrence] "The presenter is Peter Steinauer,"

Oh I knew who he was, I watched them introduce him and say his title. Speaking while the audience is cheering is a basic no no. People can't hear you when you do that. He couldn't even do basic stuff like that right. Not having the program on the screen instead of stills. Evan blew him out of the water for my money. Arrogance? (or confidence) Evan had that in spades, remember that point when he looked at the audience and said, "do you like this? I mean, I don't care" hahaha He was keeping it real. He didn't care if they liked it or not, he liked it.


[David Lawrence] "The final blow was seeing that it couldn't open any of my FCP projects but opened iMovie projects just fine."

Yes, this was a killer for so many. For me, it wasn't that big of a deal since you could still use FCP
If I wanted to work on an old project I could open it in the program that I had been using for years.

In theory, of course it should, but in practice, I wasn't really doing that anyway. My clients weren't coming to me wanting some old video I did for them 2 or 3 years ago. They wanted fresh new stuff.

So many things have changed so quickly. When I look back at stuff I shot before the affordable large sensor cameras, I cringe. I want to re-shoot all that stuff with my primes. Heck, I'd rather you pay me to do a whole new video anyway so I can make more money : )

I hear you and others, it just wasn't a deal breaker for me.



[David Lawrence] "he's conveniently not telling the audience is that it's impossible to open the FCP7 timeline in FCPX. How do you think the crowd would have reacted to that minor detail?"

I think they would have booed him depending on how he did it.

Once again, it's presenting 101 You get out ahead of bad news, you don't let people find out on their own. He should have said that you won't be able to do that but you will still have FCP to work with. Apologize and move on.

[David Lawrence] " It's impossible to tell WTF is happening in the FCPX timeline because so much is hidden. And btw, there's no way to see the hidden media in context because compound clips open in their own timelines."

You can just hit "break apart clip items" and it expands all clips back out "in' the timeline.

When guys post stills of their timeline on here they don't ever post a bunch of CCs, they want you to see their work. It's always expanded.

CCs is just a tool I use from time to time when I don't want to scroll up and down so much while I'm working. I know I can always expand the clips back when ever I get done or need to.

If I have a ten layer deep graphic section, why do I need all that head room? I just compress it for now while I'm working. It's an option. You don't have to ever use it.

[David Lawrence] "I'm sure they gave out preview copies, but I sincerely doubt they incorporated any critical feedback. "

Then why give out copies? If they don't want to hear what he has to say he can just wait like the rest of us.

We know they listened to the guys on Focus because they came out and publicly said so.



[David Lawrence] " It was a mess when they released it but ever since they fixed libraries, it's been quite fine and great choice for everyone who likes it. And it's certainly made the NLE playing field a lot more interesting!"

Indeed : )


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Bill Davis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 1:23:09 am

A) this is all silly. Riding a bike involves mild jeopardy - if you make wrong decisions or merely do nothing, You can crash. Driving an NLE, if you do nothing -- nothing happens. Everything pauses until you figure out what to do. For this alone, the analogy is dumb, IMO. It's like arguing that firing a gun is stupid because you pull the trigger back - yet the bullet goes FORWARD! (How wiill people EVER figure this out?) somehow they do, huh?
B) I swear the hyperbole about how "unusual" X is is laughable. There are about three or four concepts you need to become accustomed to. Most people who have trouble with X simply keep looking at it from the outside while reading these debates (fueled by ignorance, often) and imagine it to be WAY more complex than it actually is. Witness how the easiest adopters are typically schoolkids and newbies! The largest barriers to X understanding are editor intransigence and ignorance, NOT how the software operates. You can become familiar in a few weeks and "get" the whole thing in a month or two, just like any other NLE. Expertise, is similar as well. A Two or four year X editor is more competent in exactly the same way the two or four year AVID editor will be more competent.

The one area where I do think there's a significant difference is in the X editors access to leveraged power via database design. That does take extra effort. And is precisely what returns the MOST potential for driving editing efficiency.

I'm also truly in awe of guys like Charlie A, Mike M, and a dozen of my friends on other boards who have the attention agility to juggle the various systems in their heads. I want my NLE to functionally disappear so I'm left with the music, not the keyboard. That I do so with one program is wonderful. I can't see the sense in trying to do it with three.

YMMV

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 1:39:56 am

[Bill Davis] "The largest barriers to X understanding are editor intransigence and ignorance, NOT how the software operates."

Yep, clearly anyone who doesn't "get" X must be a stubborn idiot. Thanks for clearing that up!

_______________________
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 11:35:27 pm

"[Bill Davis] "The largest barriers to wanting to use X are editors using it and not wanting to use it again, NOT how the software operates.""

well said Bill, well said.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 5:46:51 am
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on May 21, 2015 at 6:11:06 am

...


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Bill Davis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 5:15:58 am

David, it's been four freeking years. But every day I read threads elsewhere with the same misguided crap like "X is only good for short form' and "nobody in professional editing uses it" and "you can't do commercials with it because I heard you can't set up a :30 timeline with it.

That is precisely what I called it. Editors willfully unwilling to take the time to "get it."

Nobody says that crap about Premiere or AVID or Vegas for heavens sake.

But every day on boards where working editors should should have some grounding in reality of how ALL the modern tools function - post crap like this.

So what other conclusion can I come to but that there is a rediculously large group of editors out there who still "don't get" X?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 5:58:32 am

[Bill Davis] "So what other conclusion can I come to but that there is a rediculously large group of editors out there who still "don't get" X?"

You know Bill, there's actually a ridiculously large group of very smart editors who really do "get X" and don't like how the software operates for very real reasons.

I think if you were able to acknowledge the fact that maybe there are some real problems with way the software operates without calling those of us who point them out stubborn idiots, it would do wonders for the credibility of your argument. Just sayin'.

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Bill Davis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 6:41:02 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on May 21, 2015 at 7:08:17 am

Nope. I will absolutely and gladly acknowledge that a ton of other editors prefer other approaches - and I never quarrel with that. That's fine. But the way you, yourself have phrased this: that there are "problems with the way the software operates" is precisely what gets my hackles up. You may not LIKE or prefer the way it functions - and that's totally fine. But that is NOT the same as there being "problems" with how it functions. Like many, many, many others I've got four years cutting in it and I've NEVER failed to deliver with it. That is the opposite of broken. That is DEPENDABLE. Period. Not being optimal for the way you prefer editing to operate is NOT equal to damaged. Period. You don't like the magnetic timeline, fine. I LOVE it. It lets me edit faster. And for all the scholarly analysis of the X paradigm you've written about- - I confess I sometimes read that with confusion. I wonder why you seem so determined to make this so complex and hard? Because so many of the things that cause you concern? They are things I just explored for a week, and they fell into place - and that was it. I intuitively understood the idea. And moved on. And I am surely NO editing wiz. I guess I'm more like those kids the teachers here always talk about. The ones with no investment or pre-conceptions of how the thing should work, so they just except how it does. Simple. Which I like. FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 9:07:11 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on May 21, 2015 at 9:11:59 am

[Bill Davis] "But the way you, yourself have phrased this: that there are "problems with the way the software operates" is precisely what gets my hackles up. You may not LIKE or prefer the way it functions - and that's totally fine. But that is NOT the same as there being "problems" with how it functions."

Bill - a long time ago before I became a full-time video maker, I was a software and UX designer. So I can say with absolute confidence, based on direct experience that all software has problems.

There are brilliant things about FCPX. And there are things about FCPX that are completely, undeniably, lame.

And this is also true about FCP7 and Premiere Pro, and Avid, and Vegas, and Resolve, and Edius, and Lightworks, and every other piece of software on the market.

All software has problems. That's not a value judgment, it's simply a fact.

I think it's wonderful you've found a piece of editing software you LOVE. Enjoy it. But even if it doesn't affect you, I assure you it has problems, just like every single piece of complex software ever written by human beings has problems.

FCPX is not precious and if you want it to get better, it good to be open to thoughtful critique of how it operates. That's my intention when I write.

So let your hackles fly. I'm just calling it as I see it!

_______________________
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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 6:10:23 am

[Bill Davis] "Nobody says that crap about Premiere or AVID or Vegas for heavens sake. "

Wow, seriously? Did you just come back from drinking with Aindreas? No other NLE gets crapped on? Really?

Every NLE gets crapped on which is why I find the victim mentality by some X users so hilariously unbelievable. 4 years? Cry me a river. FCP legend didn't start losing it's "Oh, you can't afford an Avid?" stigma in LA until around FCP 5 or 6 so... that's 6-8yrs after launch. Of course even today, 16yrs after FCP 1.0 was released, you'll still find people that think that FCP Legend was a piece of crap. Oh well.

How long was Avid that thing that only people that weren't 'real' editors (i.e. film or linear editors) used? And then how long was Avid that over priced crap that people only use because it's entrenched in the industry and too expensive to get rid of it? I started using FCP in 2002 so I'd say I first started noticing FCP users flinging crap at other NLEs like Avid in about... 2002.

No offense to our Adobe friends here, but AFAIK Premiere (and I don't just mean Pro) has been crapped on as an only-for-wedding-videographers, also-ran NLE by Avid and FCP users up until about CS6 or CC so that's a good 15-20yrs. And to be perfectly honest, if Apple had released FCP 8, instead of FCP X, PPro would still be on the outside looking in. It wouldn't have mattered about how good it was because, well, it would still Premiere.

The sooner people stop seeking universal validation for the choices they make the sooner they are one step closer to living a happier life.

4 years. lol


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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 6:40:55 am

[Andrew Kimery] "No other NLE gets crapped on? Really?"

How about the "Your NLE is crappier than mine" forum?

I think we can all agree that a ridiculously large group of very smart editors will never agree on anything.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 6:45:42 am

[James Culbertson] "How about the "Your NLE is crappier than mine" forum?"

Only if we add "The Debate" to the end of it. That's the signature element. Hopefully someone at the COW has slapped a trademark(?) on it already.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:52:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "No offense to our Adobe friends here, but AFAIK Premiere (and I don't just mean Pro) has been crapped on as an only-for-wedding-videographers, also-ran NLE by Avid and FCP users up until about CS6 or CC so that's a good 15-20yrs."

None taken and I can agree wholeheartedly.

[Andrew Kimery] " And to be perfectly honest, if Apple had released FCP 8, instead of FCP X, PPro would still be on the outside looking in. It wouldn't have mattered about how good it was because, well, it would still Premiere."

I think FCP8 would have been a great Star Trek "alternate reality" universe. For me, I feel Adobe video ENG teams and Premiere Pro in particular had a very clear focus of where we wanted to get to. With CS5, the Mercury Playback Engine, 64-bit native, etc. etc. we started our trajectory to where we are today. I feel we would have gotten there anyway even if Apple had done FCP8, but it is a great "what if" question if ever there was one for this group... ;-)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 4:03:28 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I think FCP8 would have been a great Star Trek "alternate reality" universe."

But who gets to wear the goatees and the sashes? ;)


[Dennis Radeke] ". I feel we would have gotten there anyway even if Apple had done FCP8, but it is a great "what if" question if ever there was one for this group... ;-)
"


I have no doubt that PPro would have arrived at the same place regardless of what Apple did, but if Apple had released FCP 8 I don't think very many users would've been motivated to see what Adobe had been up to. To a lesser extent I think this is true with Avid as well. For example, there are three good-sized places I used to work at that were FCP for a very long time but now two are on PPro and one is on Avid. If FCP 8 had been released I couldn't imagine any of them switching to PPro or Avid over 8.

For the industry though I think the shake up has been a good thing as it's forced people to take a hard look at their situation and surroundings. For NLE usage it's a legit three dog race between the Three A's (with a couple of dark horses in Resolve and Lightworks) and I think the competition is a good, healthy thing.


-Andrew


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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:02:02 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Step 1. Watch this 8 minute video about learning how to ride bike where the handlebar movement has been reversed (left turns you right, right turns you left)."

When I discovered FCP legacy, AVID MC started to feel a bit like a backwards bicycle. Now, FCP 7 and Premiere feel a bit like backwards bicycles compared to FCPX.

But FCPX clicked immediately with me, and I can go back and edit on FCP7 without a beat. So, while some may feel this is an applicable metaphor, by no means is it applicable in any systematic way. It certainly makes no sense to me. All NLEs are just bicycles to me; FCPX feels like a racing bike, and the rest feel like good solid touring bikes.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:04:14 am

Really, as far as bikes and timelines, wouldn't the more apt FCPX analogy be a unicycle, or Penny-Farthing? :-)


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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:48:14 am

[Mark Suszko] "Really, as far as bikes and timelines, wouldn't the more apt FCPX analogy be a unicycle, or Penny-Farthing? :-)"

AVID is more like a Penny-Farthing at this point.

BMX may be a better metaphor for how malleable FCPX is. Or perhaps a hybrid BMX/Road bike.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:54:47 am

Christopher and Charlie,

I bounce between MC, FCP Legend and PPro a lot as well don't really have trouble doing so. I'm sure I'll add X to the mix eventually and maybe Resolve (depending on how version 12 is) but probably not Lightworks as that's such a niche and probably won't have wider adoption anytime soon. If I had to pick a fave right now I'd have to say PPro, but if I could use only one it would be Avid because that's where the lion's share of the work is for me. I like being fluent with multiple NLEs though 'cause affords me not only the best opportunity to work, but also the best opportunity to work on projects I really want to work on.

I like Christopher's thought that jumping between NLEs will help keep dementia at bay. ;)

[Bill Davis] "this is all silly. Riding a bike involves mild jeopardy - if you make wrong decisions or merely do nothing, You can crash. Driving an NLE, if you do nothing -- nothing happens. Everything pauses until you figure out what to do. For this alone, the analogy is dumb, IMO. "

I'm not quite sure what the ranting is for. This isn't about bikes or software or analogies it's an example about how people learn (or more specifically, unlearn and then re-learn).

What's hilarious is that when the guy was talking about sticking w/it and it finally 'clicking', I thought "Hey, that's exactly what Bill keeps saying about X. You have to stick with it, experienced editors will have to unlearn some things, but one morning it will just click and then it's smooth sailing." I meant it to be an affirmation of these points of view, and I'm not entire sure how it got perceived as a slight.

Was my joking thread title too obtuse? Are we not all familiar with Betteridge's law of headlines?If a backwards bike falls in the woods but no one is there to assign it a Role does it still make a sound? Should I keep asking rhetorical questions?


[Bill Davis] "Witness how the easiest adopters are typically schoolkids and newbies!"

Kinda like how the kid in the video that learned how to ride the backwards bike pretty quick? If you've never ridden a bike before then whatever you first learn (be it a 'backwards bike' or a regular bike) is normal to you.

[Mark Suszko] "The bike analogy was less impressive to those of us that fly model airplanes, because making it turn the right direction is a problem that changes from moment to moment, depending on if the plane is coming towards you or going away"

It's not about right to go right and left to go left though. It's about something you've been doing for decades suddenly causing the opposite effect of what it's always done. In the case of model airplanes, the way you learned to fly model airplanes is that the controls are always relative to the plane, not to you. But if I handed you a controller that was setup so the controls were always relative to you, not the plane, you'd probably have a hard time flying the plane (at least at first).

Same thing with the tiller. I've only been sailing a little bit, but if I got onto a boat where the tiller was setup to work the opposite of what I'm used to I'd mess things up at first (especially if I was multitasking by working the sales, watching for traffic and trying to navigate to my slip in an unfamiliar harbor).

It's the act of unlearning and relearning, the bike is just one possible example.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 10:30:35 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Are we not all familiar with Betteridge's law of headlines?"

No! (Ha.)

Of course NLEs are not like bicycles. They're like cars. Or hammers.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:26:39 pm

[Walter Soyka] "No! (Ha.)"

lol. Nice.


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tony west
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:56:50 am

Andrew, that's a great video. Thanks man.

I have to say, I never really found X that difficult.

It took me a little time to figure out short cuts and how to control things, but that was partly my fault.

It looked so simplistic to me that I never really bothered to read up on it or watch a tutorial.

I just dove into it.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 4:22:34 am

[tony west] "It looked so simplistic to me that I never really bothered to read up on it or watch a tutorial."

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at right now. Part of me wants to just jump right when I have free moments, but the other part of me wants to watch some tutorials so I'm not wasting time flopping around like a fish out of water.


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tony west
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 4:31:45 am

I find myself doing that with a lot of things. I will start putting something together without reading the instructions and have to go back.

I think my problem is I don't have enough patience sometimes.

That makes me try to skip ahead, and often mess up : )


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 6:17:02 am

[tony west] "That makes me try to skip ahead, and often mess up : )"

As they say in snowboarding, if you aren't falling your aren't trying.


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Doug Suiter
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 8:45:18 am

Great video! But the short answer is no.

Learning FCPX (and I have) is much moire like going from a Mouse to Wacom tablet (I've done that before too). Unlike the bicycle, people who learn a Wacom have no trouble going between a mouse and Wacom. Similarly, I have no problems going back to FCP legacy or Premiere - although i don't find i ever need or want to.

Some said the question is "Is a backwards bicycle better?". I don't think that's the question at all. That's like asking if a Wacom is better than a Mouse. You gotta be more specific - better at what?

The bicycle example is much more analogous to apple's "Natural Scrolling" feature. If i use a computer without that now I can barely drive it!


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Mitch Ives
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:12:48 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Seeing this video made me think of Bill (and others, but mostly Bill) talking about how moving to X can be a struggle for experienced editors but at some point it just clicks and it's smooth sailing from then on. Until, of course, you have to go back to another NLE and you struggle to reconnect those neural pathways again. "

Thought intriguing thread. One thing Bill was right about, is that people who have never used an NLE, pick up X pretty easily. People who have used other NLE's tend to need more time. The theory is that us experienced NLE users somehow just don't get it. I never bought into that, but I have been amazed that anytime we bring up a shortcoming of X, we're the problem... we just don't get it. Actually, we do. We have experience from other NLE's so we know what else is possible. People who only ever used FCP and then FCP X have a more limited view of what could be possible IMO. That's not a judgement, just an observation.


[Andrew Kimery] "One thing I wonder, and he doesn't address it in the video, is if he alternated riding a normal bike and a backwards bike on a regular basis would he always go through a 're-learning' stage or could riding both bikes become second nature?"

Good question. I just spent 10 days driving in Scotland on the other side of the road. Can I do it... yes. Am I as good at it as I am driving on the right side of the road... I'd say no. However, if you've watched British Top Gear, these three guys move back and forth seamlessly, since they do it on at least a monthly basis. In the case of an NLE, it may be more complicated, since there's an entire philosophy or mindset involved, but if you only moved back and forth between two, I'd think in time that you could get comfortable...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 3:58:16 pm

[Mitch Ives] " I just spent 10 days driving in Scotland on the other side of the road. Can I do it... yes. Am I as good at it as I am driving on the right side of the road... I'd say no."

Two things really messed me up during my short (very short) driving stint in England years ago. One was operating a manual transmission with my left hand and the other was roundabouts. I'd always start heading the wrong way on roundabouts until a blood curdling scream from my passenger reminded me I was doing it wrong.

[Mitch Ives] "The theory is that us experienced NLE users somehow just don't get it."

Yeah, I don't agree about not being able to get it either, but experienced users do have expectations as to how it will work based on previous experience and sometimes that can get in the way. This is true of learning any new NLE though. And it's similar to the bike riding example. If you've spent 20yrs riding a bike and suddenly someone gives you a bike that behaves very differently you have a lot more to overcome than someone that has no cycling experience at all.


And some people might just have a knack for learning certain things while others may not. For example, I can't learn a foreign language to save my life. I took years of classes through middle school, high school and college and I struggled every step of the way. I know other people that speak 2 or 3 languages and didn't really struggle while learning them.


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 5:36:48 pm

Great video. I think the reason it is hard to switch steering systems on a bike is that riding a bike is not an intellectual concept, it is deeper in the brain, muscle memory and probably reptilian brain, No time to process it in a conscious form. Same with playing a piano, hitting a tennis shot. Learning this is more or less hardware driven not software. He is right that at an early age, it is easier to rewire.

Using jkl and i o on FCPX is the same kind of thing. I am glad that I work for myself and don't have to switch from x to 7 to PPro. OK, that labels me as over the hill, but there is some truth to that.


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Paul Neumann
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 6:01:05 pm

So is there any advantage to having a bike work like that?


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Claude Lyneis
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 6:18:51 pm

probably wouldn't get stolen.


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Paul Neumann
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 9:42:30 pm

I ain't gonna touch that.


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 20, 2015 at 11:00:56 pm

Now this is a thread that really brings back the debate header of this forum :-)

I disagree though that it confirms the 'why FCPX doesn't work'. It would do so if Final cut X's timeline would flow from right to left. This would be a fundamental messing with your brain scenario that would take years to master. Unless of course your native language wrights from right to left (which throws up the interesting question if people who's native language is written right to left have problems in the beginning working with any NLE?)

When editing moved to the computer all what was there before had tracks. This was a physical given and not by choice. Physical machines can only have tracks (at least to my knowledge) So when translating this to a computer it was the reference to work from. The computer of course made it way more flexible to work with those tracks. But it still had the problems of tracks. Track assigning, Synch between tracks. Keeping video and audio that belongs to each other together. You as the user had to deal with them to not mess up the result. Of course you learned to deal with them and it looked like they were no problems anymore. But finding a way to deal with the problem doesn't change the fact that it is a problem and requires work. If it wouldn't be a problem NLE's wouldn't have invented sync indicators, auto track assigning etc. These were all inventions that tried to minimise the effect of the problem. But the problem remains. You can of course stop there and say you're happy with the status quo. This would be the end of the debate :-)

Now I think that Apple thought let's look at these problems (and the rest of how you work with an NLE) and say 'let's see if we can come up with a model that avoids the above mentioned issues. The result is the magnetic timeline (bad name I think but that's what it is)

Here now the debate. By creating a model that avoids track assignment, sync issues and video/audio pairing problems did they create bigger problems somewhere else? The answer to that lies with the user. For me definitely not. Quite the opposite. I actually gained a lot of possibilities that I didn't have before. To be able to freely edit within a secondary to make music fit or edit soundbites without affecting the rest or loosing sync somewhere down the line are huge advantages in creative freedom. Of course you can get the same end result with a track based system, after all I edited just fine before, but now I do not have to think about a lot of stuff when I simply want to shorten a soundbite. I work only in the section I want to and don't worry about anything 20 min down the line which I had to do before.
That audio is now sample based is one of the biggest advantages. And the clever way of clip containers where audio following video frames to stay in sync but be able to adjust audio still on a sample base at edit points or when applying keyframes for volume changes is just magical. Sync indicators rest in piece.

But there is no free lunch of course. Having no tracks means no more easy visual feedback of content like where is the music and where is the fx. For me that is something I can easily live with because I do not need it when working in the section I'm in. I do not need the overview because it doesn't inform my edit decisions. It might let me find the fx clip a fraction quicker if I want to change the volume but I loose 10x more time dealing with tracks overall e.g. when changing something at min 10 in a 50 min piece.

FCPX is not riding a bike with the steering reversed. It's a bike where somebody modified the controls like gear change and bell to a position that they think is more economical when using it. I happen to agree :-)

Happy editing
Carsten


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:21:53 am

The addition of value judgements to the discussion in some comments is something I wasn't expecting.

In my original post I didn't make, or imply, any value judgements and the video didn't make or imply any value judgements about the modified bike vs the regular bike either. I assume that's because that wasn't the point of the exercise and they both appear to be fully functioning bikes. It's not like the presenter made people ride a broken bike, he just made them ride a bike with right/left reversed. On the surface it sounds like an easy and predictable enough change to compensate for but obviously that's not true.

Even though the riders clearly knew they needed to turn right for left and left for right they couldn't do it effectively enough to keep the bike from tipping over. If someone learned and spent 20 years riding on the modified bike it would be just as hard for that person to switch to a regular bike. The issue isn't inherent to the bike, it's inherent to the people and what's been ingrained into their neural pathways. It never dawned on me to contemplate if one bike was inherently better than the other since, well, that wasn't the point of the exercise (and they both appear to be fully functional).

Now, I'm fully aware that is the debate forum and I did pause for a second before I posted the video but I ended saying to myself, "Nah, this is so benign that there's no way people are going to read into it." Obviously I was wrong and I'll never de-value the ability of this forum to turn anything into a debate ever again. ;)


-Andrew


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David Lawrence
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:27:38 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Now, I'm fully aware that is the debate forum and I did pause for a second before I posted the video but I ended saying to myself, "Nah, this is so benign that there's no way people are going to read into it." Obviously I was wrong and I'll never de-value the ability of this forum to turn anything into a debate ever again. ;)"

Which is exactly why the name of this forum is still perfect!!! ;)

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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:46:25 am

[David Lawrence] "Which is exactly why the name of this forum is still perfect!!! ;)"

Except that folks who have not been here before might get the idea it is about personal preferences specific to FCPX when it is really more about general NLE preferences at this point.

What about "My NLE or not"?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 22, 2015 at 11:04:58 pm

[James Culbertson] " folks who have not been here before might get the idea it is about personal preferences specific to FCPX when it is really more about general NLE preferences at this point.
"


well no. this forum, ideally, exists to remind any potential reader, viewing it in a debate context, that X is kind of irritatingly awful, and that they should salt the earth before they would lay hands on it given how crazy apple's decision making has been over time - and how utterly insane the random distressed chrome 3D type updates have been lately.

Some people think this should be an arena within which people discuss the varying merits and methodologies of specific editing software over time, and the meaning of editing that lies behind it all.

but, the thing is, they are wrong. This is actually the forum that allows you to therapeutically knee FCPX in the groin until the sun grows cold. The forum also allows some other people to sit around and defend it.

that's how I'd pitch it anyway.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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James Culbertson
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 23, 2015 at 2:28:44 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "well no. this forum, ideally, exists to remind any potential reader, viewing it in a debate context, that X is kind of irritatingly awful, and that they should salt the earth before they would lay hands on it given how crazy apple's decision making has been over time - and how utterly insane the random distressed chrome 3D type updates have been lately."

Wouldn't that be more accurately called "Aindreas Gallagher's FCPX World"?

Kind of a reality TV show... sort of in this style:







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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 24, 2015 at 7:24:38 pm

ah james - It seems like I hurt your feelings or something...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Michael Gissing
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:33:18 am

[Andrew Kimery] "The addition of value judgements to the discussion in some comments is something I wasn't expecting."

Wishful thinking perhaps. A bike analogy is not as good as a car or sports analogy when comparing NLEs. That is the unwritten law of this forum.

The fact that it wasn't about the bike but patterned learning and brain conditioning seems to have missed the general audience, but hey that has never stopped opinionated "debate" before.

I appreciated the point however, but I have just finished a three part doco on brain training called "Redesign My Brain". This is exactly what the doco deals with. Learning how to change from entrenched thinking. It is so much more than just muscle memory too. It is at a deep level about how we think. How we process pain and fear - something that perhaps some of us here need to consider.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 1:38:51 am

[Michael Gissing] "I appreciated the point however, but I have just finished a three part doco on brain training called "Redesign My Brain". This is exactly what the doco deals with"

That sounds very cool Michael. When and where is it going to be available?


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Michael Gissing
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 2:12:16 am

Broadcasting on Australian ABC from 28th May but also we are reversioning for Discovery so it will play in the US and Europe later in the year.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 3:57:33 am

[Michael Gissing] "Broadcasting on Australian ABC from 28th May but also we are reversioning for Discovery so it will play in the US and Europe later in the year."

Nice. Hope I'm able to catch it when it hits the States.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 21, 2015 at 12:11:29 pm

As a former Discreet Edit*6 user, I can only shrug at the collective drama going on here. But it's not going to sway the faithful on either side.


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 27, 2015 at 12:40:57 am

Point taken :-)

Nevertheless the example doesn't work for current NLE's because the change is not big enough.

I still could edit on Avid after 10 years not using it and working for at least the last 2 years on FCP X. It was like riding a clunky old bike :-) I didn't like it but it got me from A to B.

Happy editing
Carsten


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Brett Sherman
Re: Are NLEs like bicycles?
on May 22, 2015 at 2:28:10 pm

Thanks for writing the most well-thought out post on this thread. :)


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