FORUMS: list search recent posts

FCPWorks sessions from NAB posted.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bill Davis
FCPWorks sessions from NAB posted.
on Apr 20, 2015 at 9:05:45 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 20, 2015 at 9:08:42 pm

As of today, all the FCPWorks suite sessions should be posted.
Workflow case studies, product demos and panels.
The channel link is here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqX2pQkpLCQ_wo_6BVFnh8BfvVbCAp5wM

Not sure if the last session, the Direct TV case study is up yet, but when it is, I recommend seeking it out. Brutal deadlines in a fast paced reality workflow where X appears to have made their life a lot easier managing a flood of content. The Indy Panel also showed off how metadata collaboration on set changes so much. Enjoy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCPWorks sessions from NAB posted.
on Apr 20, 2015 at 9:46:46 pm

Chris Fenwick live periscoped Steve Martin working the new mask and colour qualifiers on FCPX - it was fun to watch, plus fenwick can compère dandy - they have one up over adobe masking there as native attributes. two up if I heard natural b-splines right.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Noah Kadner
Re: FCPWorks sessions from NAB posted.
on Apr 20, 2015 at 11:11:19 pm

Chris uses Meerkat but who ever split hairs over platform choice...

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
Call Box Training


Return to posts index


Noah Kadner
Re: FCPWorks sessions from NAB posted.
on Apr 20, 2015 at 10:47:09 pm

All sessions are up now and a special thanks to Bill for doing all of that amazing editing in record time. We're incredibly psyched to have all of this Final Cut Pro X content online so soon after NAB 2015 wrapped.

And I also should mention to anyone checking these out sessions, almost every one of them features an FCPWORKS client or integration partner (or both). So, if you like what you see and you want us to do something similar, please get in touch.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
Call Box Training


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 20, 2015 at 10:58:41 pm

"recently... I had to spend five hours untangling 30 minutes of D-M&E on avid... it literally would have taken me 10 minutes on X."

from 13 minutes in - as he moves through the serious capabilities to preference and or mute audio sub roles/channels it's quite the killer presentation.







It's incredibly weird, to a sometime hater, that skateboarder video X's core calvinist thinking on data and metadata objects sounds most radically impressive inside the highest end co-operative work scenarios. Mike Matzdorf has to be, inarguably, a wicked smart unassuming top of his game mensch. And his irritation at the general inability to see some of the deadly serious game X brings to the table comes off him in waves.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 2:53:13 am

[Aindreas G] "from 13 minutes in - as he moves through the serious capabilities to preference and or mute audio sub roles/channels it's quite the killer presentation."

Yes it does explain why traditional NLE track based non organised audio is hell to sort. I would like to see however a proper time and motion study on whether time taken to assign roles compared to managing clips in a track/bus system prior to export is actually any different. What is needed is perspective on whether getting roles sorted in advance is actually any more efficient that getting tracks managed during edit.

For me the missing thing in NLEs is track and bus based processing or for a similar equivalent with Roles. Also 5 hours to sort D-M&E elements into tracks on AVID for a 30 minute film is about five times longer than I would spend on a Fairlight doing the same job from the AVID AAF. It perhaps says something about how NLEs manage temporary grouping of clips and the easy of moving or swapping with clips on other tracks.

At my end of getting AAFs or OMFs from all NLEs, I have yet to see that the editors management of tracks or roles is any less work to me to reorganise the track/bus layout needed for sound edit and mix. I would love to hear a presentation from the sound post team whether the sound hand over was better or made their job any easier from X as apposed to any other NLE. My experience is that there is not really any difference so far. there is potential with Roles to be better but there is also potential for NLEs like Pr & Avid etc to also be better.


Return to posts index


Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 8:25:35 am

Hi Michael,

well, some things to think about:

- with an app like Sync"N Link you can have your Roles correctly (even mic per mic) attached to your video footage of a whole day just by exporting an XML, bringing it into Sync'N Link, exporting an XML from there again, and done. Seconds. A couple of clicks. For every mic. The sound guy must have done his job correctly however, tagging his recording on set.

- You can import new footage in a keyword collection. Then select all of them. Hundreds of files. And give them the same Role with one click. (music for instance).

- The most important thing here is, in my opinion, are 2 artistic things. First, you don't label things anymore with track 1-track 4 for instance. Now it's DIALOGUE. ADR. Titles. Etcetera. This goes back to CONTENT organisation, and not onto a tracking system that can be random. It's understandible for anyone to read.
Second, you should do all of this Roles organisation BEFORE you edit. You can even do it afterwards, but I think doing it before gives you much better options. What this means is that you do all this organisation when you are in a 'organising your edit' mood. But when you are ready for the creative process... Cutting, removing things, putting them somewhere else, trimming, etcetera,... It all gets out of your way, and you can just go along with that flow. I think this is a very important point.

- Again, with a couple of clicks and an XML, you can have all of these organised in tracks for ProTools. From what I've heard (because I don't have experience with this myself but a lot of people here do) these are often the cleanest AAF's they have ever gotten.

I do hope Apple extends timeline features with Roles (color coding, grouping, a Roles-based mixer) like everyone does. But I like the concept of Roles a lot more than tracks.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 12:15:11 pm

"The sound guy must have done his job correctly however, tagging his recording on set. "

And there lies the rub. It also requires common TC. That is also unfortuantely often skipped for many reasons.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:22:13 am

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "Hi Michael,...well, some things to think about:

I think about this sort of thing a lot so thanks for the perspective. I too see Roles as a thing with much greater potential. Part of my concern doing doco post is how often that work is not done. The penalty is to me not the editor in spite of the fact that sorting Roles up front should be more efficient for the edit as well.

So many editors just want to get editing and sort later. I am questioning the assumption that X is always more efficient or faster. The work has to be done and more than ever with resolve supporting metadata like shot descriptions, I can see it will flow into grade and assist in finding shots with the same grade so I am keen for editors to go there with Roles. So far my limited experience is that they are not doing it upfront and feel a bit annoyed when they need to do it later. Alternatively they just pass messy AAFs on to me.


Return to posts index


Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 12:12:22 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Apr 21, 2015 at 12:22:08 pm

The only thing to bear in mind with the "10 min" comment is that this only works if you've already spent the time to designate roles and subroles after media is imported or by going through your sequence clip by clip. Neither of which is inconsequential in time. It also doesn't account for the actual export time of a full movie if the export is V&A instead of only audio. In any case the comparison would be true of every track-based system. If you look at some of the samples of Walter Murch's FCP timelines, he groups dialogue, SFX and music into specific track ranges for exactly that reason.

Of course, exporting stems from a raw timeline is a rather unusual situation for a film - unless this is to send for a temp mix or if the entire mix is being done in the NLE, which isn't the norm. Generally the stems come back from the mixer out of ProTools and the editor lines them back up against picture. In that scenario, exporting from X or a track-based system would be about the same.

Note: in the presentation, it wasn't clear to me whether Mike was talking about organizing tracks into DME groups to send on to the mixer or whether he was talking about exporting a final version with DME stems.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 2:20:30 pm

I will just note two things.

A) timecode is not necessary at all if you opt for the state of the art Lumberjack/lumberyard system that works on time of day and could care less about anything being jam sync'd.

And B) the massive time savings (a growing real world theme!) was echoed by other professionals in the suite. Watch the DirecTV (last presentation) for an even stronger validation than Mikes.

You can try to come up with all the " it can't be THAT much better" rationalizations you like, but serious people in very professional situations are starting to report precisely that. It IS a much better workflow - and one that produces bundles of time savings and workflow efficiency.

The whole point of the risky X reinvention was ALWAYS about re-architecting it into a smarter, better NLE. You may not like it, understand it, or simply prefer its approach - and that's fine. But a lot of voices are clearly telling you that used the way it's designed, it can be a wicked fast - effort saving - drudgery automating - very powerful editing tool.

FWIW

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 7:19:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "A) timecode is not necessary at all if you opt for the state of the art Lumberjack/lumberyard system that works on time of day and could care less about anything being jam sync'd."

Lumberjack isn't really applicable to a scripted production, from what I can tell. Is it? I'm not sure. How does TOD have anything to do with audio and 1 or more cameras that are generally not running TOD? I'm not quite sure how that would work. Typically it's not accurate enough for sound sync even when they are running TOD. For scripted productions and double-system sound, the only reliable sync other than TC is a good old fashioned clapstick (or an equivalent).

[Bill Davis] "And B) the massive time savings (a growing real world theme!) was echoed by other professionals in the suite. Watch the DirecTV (last presentation) for an even stronger validation than Mikes."

I wasn't saying that X doesn't save you time, however, extreme examples are often mentioned without taking everything into account. Mike's comment was based on the presumption of the proper use of roles. That does take time and yes, if the location audio team did their job, there can be a huge efficiency thanks to the automation of some processes. I've used Sync-N-Link X with success, so I can easily see a savings there. Unfortunately editors are generally at the receiving end when the crew decides to take some short cuts or forgets a cable to sync camera and sound recorder.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index


Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 11:17:25 pm

FWIW, I spent a good chunk of my time talking with Phil Hodgetts at NAB and one thing he mentioned that surprised me was that instead of the "classic" timecode approach of a black burst generator and running coax everywhere - he tested just bringing a basic GoPro on-set to use its internal clock as the primary timekeeper in a lumberjack environment.

The point is that reference time isn't what it used to be.

Are we that far from our cameras "sensing" the presence of an iWatch on set and letting each device track that time hack internally?

Lumberjack uses clock based "real time" because that supports its mission. But I couldn't help thinking how if devices in general can tap into global time precisely, then the old TC system could actually become obsolete? No?

Just food for thought.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 21, 2015 at 11:59:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "But I couldn't help thinking how if devices in general can tap into global time precisely, then the old TC system could actually become obsolete? No?"

Well maybe, but I don't see that being implemented across the board anytime soon. As far as accuracy, take an iPad for example. When it is disconnected from the internet or a phone data network, it does not maintain perfect accuracy. Fine for taking notes in something like Lumberjack, but not accurate enough for sound sync.

Take any current camera or sound recorder. These cost a lot of money, yet do not maintain perfect sync on their own in "free run" without periodically having to be externally jam synced.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 am

[Bill Davis] "But I couldn't help thinking how if devices in general can tap into global time precisely, then the old TC system could actually become obsolete? No?"

In the file world, time of day is excellent. In the old tape world, it was a problem with prerolling. So in theory yes. I watched a good vid from the Deneke people at NAB. It might be worth tracking it down as they show how a distributed TC and sync system needs a single ultra stable clock and the ability for all devices to re jam after power down.

Camera's like RED are notorious for needing re-jamming after battery changes. On multi cam drama good code management makes a difference. Auto sync systems that just rely on mod matching guide to hero will not be reliable in many circumstances and will also need distributed guide audio to record on cameras so that a system like Pluralize can work best. Might as well distribute timecode from a proper stable master and jam. Much easier.

I have a Blackmagic 4k camera which doesn't support timecode but does time of day. I have a simple system of a single clapper and calculating offset to sync for a whole days rushes. It works but with more than one camera it suddenly becomes messy because the devices require manually setting rough time.


Return to posts index


Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:24:03 am

[Michael Gissing] "and will also need distributed guide audio to record on cameras so that a system like Pluralize can work best."

Unfortunately many cameras record audio out-of-sync by + or - 1 to 2 frames.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:34:08 am

[Oliver Peters] "Unfortunately many cameras record audio out-of-sync by + or - 1 to 2 frames."

True Oliver, especially when using external recorders like Ninja or Ki Pro. The problem is the video is delayed. Audio is fine.

The solution is to feed through the camera, not direct into the recorder and the camera compensates on the embedded HDMI or SDI out. Same with the timecode. The camera needs to be the jam source not the external recorder.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:46:58 am

[Michael Gissing] "True Oliver, especially when using external recorders like Ninja or Ki Pro. The problem is the video is delayed. Audio is fine."

Actually I've seen it direct in the camera. I recently cut a video shot with two different models of Canon DSLRs and one had internal audio sync that was two frame off from the video, while the other was dead-on.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:57:04 am

Ah DSLRs are another matter.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:07:41 am

[Bill Davis] "You can try to come up with all the " it can't be THAT much better" rationalizations you like, but serious people in very professional situations are starting to report precisely that. It IS a much better workflow - and one that produces bundles of time savings and workflow efficiency. "

Did I say that? I am asking if there is proper quantifiable comparison of workflows. It is great if an editor finds something is faster only to discover the assistant is spending hours on extra work to make that possible. Again not saying this isn't desirable but motherhood statements about speed need to be both quantified and qualified.

As Oliver points out there is a shift on logging from post to location. For some workflows like doco are just not feasible. I started watching the Indie clip also posted and I am impressed by the location to post workflow and that a lot of logging can be semi automated from location logs. Brilliant but again is this just a shift of work rather than some quantum leap in efficiency. Show me the data not the confirmation bias.

Also you have not addressed my concerns that were also mirrored in Mike's presentation that some editors are not bothering with using Roles or don't understand. I see the potential but I also realise that if editors can deliver a job to post finish with multiple files named "untitled" then asking for them to do more metadata work up front is likely to fall on deaf ears. In that case hand over to post is worse and requires more time post edit. Efficiencies really matter to me because I work in a faster turnaround low budget doco world. Any shunting of track management to me affects my bottom line so I really want Roles to work.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 12:28:28 am

Just go to the FCPWorks website and watch two videos. First Phil Hodgetts Lumberjack/Lumberyard Demo.

Then watch the last session about DirectTV.

One explains some of the system design concepts about how to save time on set that Lumberjack is implementing quite rapidly. The second is real world workflows that prove the theory.

It's no longer just guys like me saving it's faster. It's more and more folks in the trenches.

You want to wait for a formal study fine. I've been hearing for more than Two Years from real editors that they are getting home from work on time and aren't needing to do overnights anymore. I don't know how much clearer the signals can be.

The Focus team. Issac Waltron at TED, Ben King at the BBC, Marc Bach at Direct TV. Ronny Courtens at Belgium Online - the list goes on and on and on. Many of these guys started taking X seriously two, three or more years ago. But sure, wait some more. I'm sure there will be qualified folks for hire in the open market and that internal development of your own teams expertise over time to get up to get rolling after ignoring the system for 5 years rather than 4 because there wasn't a "study" available won't be a problem.

Yes, I'm teasing you.

But honestly the more demos I watched the more real the time savings I see every week solidified.

Used as designed, X is a wicked fast editorial system. Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 1:24:23 am

[Bill Davis]"Yes, I'm teasing you."

I am not the one 'waiting' Bill. I see the end results and talk to editors as they hand over for finish. Lots of editors are either waiting or have moved to Pr or Avid mostly. So few have moved to X that I don't get such reports so teasing out hype from reality is a fair response. Indeed I think it good business as it ultimately affects my bottom line.

Because I am not hearing such things directly I am asking if there is really a big efficiency saving. Isn't that a fair question. Surely it is more than hearsay that directs where hundreds of thousands of post dollars go or are producers swayed by some editors enthusiasm?

So by all means tease but I will keep asking until I get a fair answer.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 6:49:10 am

And all I can tell you is that IF the "X is pioneering a more efficient workflow" is a fantasy, it's the largest and most successful hoodwink in the history of this industry. Remember, this is one of the largest, most innovative and financially successfully technology companies in the world. Four years ago they very publically announced a major initiative to reinvent modern editing ideas because they thought there was LOTS of room for improvement in an industry largely still operating on techniques and ideas inherited from the analog era. Every single pundit that said they were "dumbing down" their approach has proven to be dead wrong. And there are hundreds of thousands of editors out there who will passionately tell you that. Its not dumber if qualified operators are getting their work done with ALL the quality they require, faster and more efficiently. And there's a rising chorus of folks who will tell you just that. Yeah, it takes effort to re-train people to "get" the X approach to workflow because it IS different.
And it's because it IS different that it's growing consistently stronger and better so rapidly. But to get the benefits of software like X the single necessary KEY is you have to be willing to commit to change your thinking.
It's clear you are not. You need assurance and safety. So it's likely that Premier or AVID will be a much better path for you. They are both wonderful reflections of the very best of what editing tools have been designed to do for the past few decades. Judicious innovation wrapped in a comforting cloak of traditional thinking. Good luck on your path.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 7:02:34 am

Bill, I am using Resolve and occasionally Pr because I needed to move on from Legend as a finishing tool. I use them for their tool set and their ability to work in collaboration with the many editors that feed me their work. I don't edit but what editors do affects me. Never in my career has anyone accused me of being safe or old thinking. That is no-one who knows anything about me.

So spare me the lecturing motherhood statements. I have heard it all before. When I ask a simple question "is the efficiency real, imagined or confirmation bias" and ask for something other than the odd endorsement from editors who are not working in my area of production, I just get this same old shrill hectoring. Spare me the lecture and feed me something real for a change.

'New paradigm' and 'old analog brain' fantasies that you spout really have no place in an intellectual debate. Wasting my time discussing anything with you again.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 12:12:46 pm

I think part of what clouds the waters regarding efficiency is that in the case of all the examples, other elements of the end-to-end workflow were also changed. These also result in efficiency. For example, the use of Sync-N-Link X or Lumberjack or an all-native media workflow or improved ingest methods. For me, X certainly has introduced many efficiency improvements, so I don't question that. I just think many of the extreme claims are all attributed to X when in fact there are many other factors in play.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 3:55:06 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I just think many of the extreme claims are all attributed to X when in fact there are many other factors in play.
"


To riff on this, and I'm not doubting anyone that uses X and credits it with getting them home from work sooner, but I was at the TED presentation at FCPWorks and most of the talk was about the complete hardware overhaul of their workflow. The video is up so you can watch it yourself, but basically around the same time they switched from 7 to X they also did things like switch from old Mac Pros to new Mac Pros and from sneaker-netting terabytes of data from their 12 camera shoots to recording directly to their shared storage. X certainly was in play, but the workflow and hardware improvements seemed to be the real game changers for them in terms of speed.

The presentation is very interesting but it's certainly heavy on hardware workflow and data management (which I'm always curious about) and surprisingly light on X.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 4:16:36 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "To riff on this, and I'm not doubting anyone that uses X and credits it with getting them home from work sooner, but I was at the TED presentation at FCPWorks..."

I was specifically thinking about that when I made the comment. I watched it last night and if you watch at about 35 min. in, you see a very elaborate revamp of how media was ingested using a custom capture/consolidate process created by their IT guys. In fact, the presenter pointed out that the way they had wanted to use XML (in a fashion as they had used with FCP 7) didn't actually work the way they'd hoped with X. My feeling at the end, was that all of the editors weren't completely sold on the success of X itself, other than the presenter.

The second part, was that they never actually used a true multi cam workflow with FCP 7, preferring instead to use track-based timeline sync maps. Part of the reason was that the recording devices they had used at the time (BMD Hyperdecks) recorded 16-channels of audio times 12 cameras. Obviously a PITA with 7. When they switched to X they also completely changed the ingest process, which also streamlined the track count. With X, they used the multi cam mode.

So honestly, it seemed to me that the improvements were more a complete change in workflow, rather than the change in one specific tool. Sometimes you really have to go past the story headlines to digest the content ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Noah Kadner
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 5:29:36 pm

TED continues to evolve their workflow, learning from each experience as every wise post team should. We experienced this ourselves with the FCPWORKS broadcasts. I'm incredibly psyched we have all of them online so soon after NAB concluded. And we learned a ton of ways we could do it even better next time.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
Call Box Training


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 24, 2015 at 12:02:17 am

Just to echo Noah, we had imagined that all I'd need to do was ingest and backup the Hyperdeck media. Top and tail the files and add the open and credits and export to upload. Simple. The wake up call came day one when I prepped the first session - set it to transcode out for YouTube and got into a 20 minute conversation. I expected the file to be mostly done when I glanced at the screen. Instead it was at 2% processed! Like the wags say, the battle plan holds right up until the first shot is fired. Noah figured out that not only should we dump the MacMini in favor of A MacPro, but the source of the problem was actually the 14 tracks of embedded audio on every file. Adding the simple workflow step of opening each card file in a Timeline and dumping the 14 unnecessary audio tracks increased my throughput by orders of magnitude. Imagine my chuckle when I watched the TED piece and saw they'd faced the exact same glitch - times a zillion cameras! Live and learn. It was a good lession since in the end, not trying to push things out instantly gave me a bit of freedom to at least double time scan the files and cover a few egregious digital dropouts and fix minor audio and switching issues. And we still got a LOT of content out pretty dang fast. Lessons learned - the real value in doing stuff like this!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 24, 2015 at 12:31:11 am

[Bill Davis] " Noah figured out that not only should we dump the MacMini in favor of A MacPro, but the source of the problem was actually the 14 tracks of embedded audio on every file. Adding the simple workflow step of opening each card file in a Timeline and dumping the 14 unnecessary audio tracks increased my throughput by orders of magnitude"

Out of curiosity, wouldn't most of those tracks be silent? Couldn't you set FCP X's import dialogue to ignore silent audio channels? If so, that would have helped. Right?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 24, 2015 at 6:04:24 pm

Oliver,

I didn't have time to test very much but it appears that the Teradeck system is configured to carry all 16 tracks muxed in every file by default. Some of the folks on the FCPWorks team who are far closer to The FCPX dev folks than I indicated that FCPX 10.2 has much better audio waveform crunching, but it was released on Day 2 and I have a pathological aversion to swapping software when in the midst of a live event. You would THINK BM has a way to output master files in stereo - but since the whole production camera ATEM system is basically a Multicam design - it wouldn't shock me if the design was to protect not just the mix, but also various camera ISO audio stems.

After figuring out the workflow, it only took me about 3 minutes to kill the extra tracks on a 50 minute recording, so it was a minor annoyance at best - at least after we figured out what was going on.

Live and learn.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 24, 2015 at 8:05:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Some of the folks on the FCPWorks team who are far closer to The FCPX dev folks than I indicated that FCPX 10.2 has much better audio waveform crunching, but it was released on Day 2 and I have a pathological aversion to swapping software when in the midst of a live event. You would THINK BM has a way to output master files in stereo"

I think you misunderstood. FCP X has had the ability since the beginning to import media and ignore any audio tracks that are silent. I had presumed that this function would have worked with the ProRes files that the Hyperdeck records. So your imported file would only have whichever tracks actually had audio.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 25, 2015 at 8:15:20 pm

For whatever reason, Oliver, the recording format the Hyperdeck uses to doesn't seem to allow this.

Even with "ignore silent tracks" checked, the files STILL showed up in X as 16 discrete tracks.

I suspect that because X prioritizes letting the editor get to work fast, it simply pulls in the file in AS IS first than tries to parse whatever components they include later. Maybe if I'd had the patience to allows X to fully prep the files, those extra tracks would have eventually disappeared when X was sure they were, in fact, blank. But the files came in and immediately cause all rendering and processing to slow to a crawl.

BTW, now that I've updated to FCP X 10.2 - which is said to allow faster audio waveform processing - I re-ran one of the files and found little difference. So it's not that.

Also, I never had time in my workflow to take the Camera Cartridges and make Camera Archives or Sparse Disk Bundles out of them. That "might" have enabled me to pre-top and tail the sessions by setting import in and out points. Never tried that - and the cartridges are back with FCPWorks - so there's no way to test it.

To manually open the Hyperdeck masters and remove the extra tracks still appears to be the only workflow allowing fast turnaround with the BlackMagic Hyperdeck based Production Camera System.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 25, 2015 at 10:03:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "Even with "ignore silent tracks" checked, the files STILL showed up in X as 16 discrete tracks. "

OK. Got it. That's what I was wondering. Thanks.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Darren Roark
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 7:48:08 pm

Hi Oliver,

I agree with what you are saying that with production realities vary greatly when it comes to post. When I have the luxury of being involved before production begins, things go much better.

The biggest use of Sync N Link is that it actually makes the subroles for you automatically by character if the sound mixer labeled the mic properly.

On a short shot on Red Dragon for a horror anthology series for Showtime, the directing team edits in FCP X, the budget couldn't afford a dedicated DIT so I suggested renting more than enough cards so you don't have to erase them. Then have a competent person make disk images of the cards to a drive on set, then clone that drive overnight to a backup every night.

I asked them to be sure and rent a Lockit box, found out that the sound person already labels takes the preferred way.

After wrap of the three day shoot, they brought me one of the drives, I was able to sync and batch relabel all the takes using the audio file names. Then a quick 'select all' and then transcode proxy media on my 12c (newish) mac pro, I went to sleep and woke up with everything done. The thing that took the most time for me was spot checking the sync in the takes.

Lockit boxes and the even better and less expensive Timecode Buddy tools have come down in price to the point where they should no longer be optional. A sender/receiver bundle rents for about $70 a week, that's $12 per shoot day.

I have to say, having worked with what Mike has been saying for the past three and a half months on a lowish budget action movie in FCP X, everything Mike is saying is true if his instructions are followed.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 8:29:27 pm

[Darren Roark] "After wrap of the three day shoot, they brought me one of the drives, I was able to sync and batch relabel all the takes using the audio file names. Then a quick 'select all' and then transcode proxy media on my 12c (newish) mac pro, I went to sleep and woke up with everything done. The thing that took the most time for me was spot checking the sync in the takes."

You don't have to convince me. I was doing that same thing nearly 2 years ago on a feature with FCP X, RED and Sync N Link X. But I've also had the other experience, where in spite of my requests, I didn't get the ideal out of the sound team. Editors can only ask and suggest. Then it's a matter of dealing with whatever you get later.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Darren Roark
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 8:55:43 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But I've also had the other experience, where in spite of my requests, I didn't get the ideal out of the sound team. Editors can only ask and suggest. "

That is the sad truth in many cases. Producers trying to save a buck, understaffed crews, operator error and good old fashioned murphy's law.

The big problem I see is that by the time the line producer comes in on a low budget film they use a 'paint by numbers' approach. "This is a low budget indie, no need to spend money renting a device when an unpaid intern can sync everything for free."

It's maddening.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 10:01:20 pm

[Darren Roark] "The big problem I see is that by the time the line producer comes in on a low budget film they use a 'paint by numbers' approach."

I tend to find it's often more unintentional. Everything was agreed up front, but then a mistake was made or something changed or forgotten. The editorial team was never consulted regarding the ramifications of a workaround decision made in the heat of the production on set. Oh well.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Darren Roark
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 10:42:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I tend to find it's often more unintentional. "

Again agreed, but it's usually unintentional as a result of being unaware of the impending wasted resources.

It's especially bad with commercials as the production company usually has nothing to do with post, the ad agencies usually handle that portion.

I think it takes a long time for new realities to sink in and become normal. I was working at one of the studios last month and a multicam horror film being cut across the hall had three assistants manually syncing dailies which took them 14+ hour days usually. I asked why they didn't have a convenient jam sync situation on set, the editor replied "I never trust timecode to be in sync."

I had to just change the subject after that.


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 11:31:33 pm

[Darren Roark] " I asked why they didn't have a convenient jam sync situation on set, the editor replied "I never trust timecode to be in sync.""

ACK!!!



Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 23, 2015 at 11:41:56 pm

Things like that are always frustrating. Of course, FWIW, Sync N Link was first developed for "legacy" and Avid Media Composer has had that ability for years. In the case of Avid, there was also the ability to slip sync with 1/4-frame accuracy. So it's not really a new technology. OTOH, maybe this editor was burned by drifting code somewhere in the past.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Leo Hans
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 29, 2015 at 3:34:12 pm

You don't need Sync N Link nor Lumberjack for that.
If the audio guy puts the proper labels in his recording device, it will be available in FCPX, and then, it would be really fast to assign roles in batch.
There is no way to be faster with tracks doing this unless you have one mic for all the characters.

Leo Hans
Editor AVID - Final Cut Pro (7+X)
http://www.leohans.com


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Mike Matzdorf beats traditional audio tracks to death with an iron pipe.
on Apr 22, 2015 at 10:18:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "in the presentation, it wasn't clear to me whether Mike was talking about organizing tracks into DME groups to send on to the mixer or whether he was talking about exporting a final version with DME stems."

but it is to pro-tools right? he says they demanded EDL and stuff - but he references pro-tools destination quite a few times. That whole production was tailed with an avid matched edit in unmarked cars the whole time apparently? Agnostic devil's advocate: the thing you can't get away from is that all the items on the timeline carry persistent identity.

as in every time we dump VA objects into a timeline in ppro etc, all they're left knowing is the track they're in. X objects kind of do have persistent actionable sets of characteristics? although X fails on matchback duplicates stuff (does it still?) You'd think they get lost in the metadata. You'd suspect X sucks on a lot of common or garden label colour stuff as well. It feels like proof of a demanding intellectual cleanliness more than anything.

I'm not sure what apple won by being as metadata calvinist as they did? It looks a lot like an outcome sea of metadata objects inside odd timeline rules with constrained matchback links to the original sea of metadata in the library. Apple seemed really, really determined to prove a point to themselves.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]