FORUMS: list search recent posts

It is patently obvious...

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Charlie Austin
It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:48:20 am

That nobody





or at least no professional





in their right mind





would ever





use 3D text





for their titles.




.
It is so old fashioned.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 8:04:52 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 19, 2015 at 8:39:36 am

I had to. :-)

Title!!



-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:49:34 pm

I was expecting some nonsense jibberish with 4 point corner pin effect thingy added in. Still, that was very brilliant. Post of the month award goes, drum roll please, Charlie Austin! This comment was not from some galaxy far away.


Return to posts index


Claude Lyneis
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 12:29:17 am

Those trailers were fun. I guess with FCPX and 3D titles it is time to update my LyneisFilm Ltd logo, even it no professional would use 3D type.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 1:23:15 pm

Well then I guess the next time your cutting a 3D Imax fantasy adventure story on your FCPX kit the 3D titles will come in handy.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 3:53:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Well then I guess the next time your cutting a 3D Imax fantasy adventure story on your FCPX kit the 3D titles will come in handy"

I cut trailers Herb. They will come in handy.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index


Herb Sevush
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:05:49 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I cut trailers Herb. They will come in handy."

Seriously and out of curiosity, since I've never cut trailers - I would have thought that you would be using the title treatments of the film itself - doesn't the distributor provide graphic elements for that? Or am I being naive?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:16:23 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:25:41 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Seriously and out of curiosity, since I've never cut trailers - I would have thought that you would be using the title treatments of the film itself - doesn't the distributor provide graphic elements for that? Or am I being naive?"

It depends. If they've "branded" it already, then we use what they have, though we often recreate it... But a lot of the time, whoever works on the campaign first will create the title/gfx treatment which is often not the same as the films title treatment. If it's with multiple vendors (which it always is) each one usually makes their own version (same font/treatment...) so they can make their own cards etc. When the TV campaign gets going, 2 spots from different vendors can have slightly, or wildly different gfx treatments. Go to traileradddict.com and watch TV spots (for "big" multivendor movies) back to back and you'll likely notice it.

And sometimes the look will change mid-stream if someone comes up with something better. As the campaign winds down, maybe they'll have one vendor provide gfx to everyone, or everyone keeps making their own using the same style. The studios have the final say and provide direction, but generally we just use whatever gfx, mx, and other elements we want and they approve/kill it.

It's not all 3D either. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:50:30 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Herb Sevush] "Seriously and out of curiosity, since I've never cut trailers - I would have thought that you would be using the title treatments of the film itself - doesn't the distributor provide graphic elements for that? Or am I being naive?""

On occasion, I've even had the opposite happen - where the production liked our graphics so much they used them for the film itself. In fact, this happened to me again only this week.

(Or the distributor like the trailer graphics so much they get used for the poster campaign, and so on.)

it's worth bearing in mind that trailer companies are usually working on the movie a very long time before it's even finished, or indeed completed principal photography.

Other than that, what Charlie said in his response pretty much covers it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index


Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 7:00:48 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "On occasion, I've even had the opposite happen - where the production liked our graphics so much they used them for the film itself. In fact, this happened to me again only this week. "

cool. :-) I once did a wild cheat/recut of of a gag in a trailer, and they recut it in the film to match it. Silent validation. lol

[Simon Ubsdell] "it's worth bearing in mind that trailer companies are usually working on the movie a very long time before it's even finished, or indeed completed principal photography."

mmm, dailies...
-studio calls...-
Studio: "Here's the first 3 daily rolls, we need you to cut a teaser from these. Make it look big"
Vendor: "Great!, you got it!"
-studio hangs up-
Vendor" "*&%*^*#$&%*#^*^#!!!!!!"

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 7:05:00 pm

[Charlie Austin] "cool. :-) I once did a wild cheat/recut of of a gag in a trailer, and they recut it in the film to match it. Silent validation. lol"

Good on you! Yes, it does happen - surprisingly often. Trailer editors aren't actually the hapless drones that they're usually perceived to be - a lot of them that I know can edit way better than a lot of feature editors.

[Charlie Austin] "mmm, dailies...
-studio calls...-
Studio: "Here's the first 3 daily rolls, we need you to cut a teaser from these. Make it look big"
Vendor: "Great!, you got it!"
-studio hangs up-
Vendor" "*&%*^*#$&%*#^*^#!!!!!!""


Brilliant! That totally sums it up.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 7:46:52 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "a lot of them that I know can edit way better than a lot of feature editors."

Yeah, totally different skill set though. I have a ton of respect for feature editors, it's a huge undertaking. We recently worked on some little robot movie and had all the dailies. The studio didn't have a cut, so (as happens quite often) our fresh out of film school assistant, mostly by herself, cut the whole damn movie together. (god bless her!)

I cut a couple scenes and the hardest part for me was to resist the urge to tighten everything up. I'm so used to cramming the entire movie into 2 minutes or less I didn't know what to do... lol My attention span is way too short.

3D titles will change all this. ;-D

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index


Tim Wilson
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 7:57:03 pm

A little off topic (who? ME?), but I was just interviewing one of the VFX teams for Ultron, and we wound up talking at some length about the TWO targets for production: opening day and Comic-Con...and the one for Comic-Con being a lot harder, because it had to happen without disrupting forward progress toward opening day. There was the additional problem that typically NOTHING is locked by then -- not picture, not sound, certainly not VFX.

Comic-Con attendees are pretty savvy to this, and you rarely hear about them savaging unfinished footage (although talk to the teams for Tron and The Hobbit), but they have to cut with a completely different strategy even than for a trailer. You have to deliver such that their good word of mouth will carry you forward for months.

Sort of back on topic, at least re: trailers, it may be the cinematic art I most respect. A nearly infinite amount of moving pieces (not even the PERFORMANCES are locked down), and a ridiculously short timeframe to create a compelling standalone piece of art....which is often better than the movie itself. Remarkable.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 11:08:38 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "it's worth bearing in mind that trailer companies are usually working on the movie a very long time before it's even finished, or indeed completed principal photography."

Ahh, the light bulb goes on, even if rather dimly. Didn't realize that. Thanks to Charlie and Simon - a further example of why I head out to this pasture first thing every morning.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 1:53:58 pm

It is of course not without irony that every single one of your examples is a retro franchise in one way or another ... so yes, you could say that 3D text is emblematic of everything that's "old-fashioned".

On top of that some of them look as though they may have been done as 2D anyway ... a texture and a bevel on their own don't make 3D.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 2:46:17 pm

I'm glad you took the time to do this Charlie, as trailers were the first thing that came to mind when everyone was bashing 3D text, and I think X does well in trailers/promos right now. Is this an example of Apple building tools as a direct response to their customer feedback?

There's a place for 3D text, and now it's easy to do in X, and I don't see the big deal. Even if it's just adding texture and reflection to flat text, this is now much easier in X.

Also, I squeal like a young boy when I see the Star Wars trailers. I hope this saga is as much fun for my son as the originals were for me.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 3:18:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, I squeal like a young boy when I see the Star Wars trailers."

3D type, much like the Force, may be used for good or evil.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 5:28:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] "3D type, much like the Force, may be used for good or evil."

Ha!

Sure. Sure. But is that limited to 3D Type, only? We could say that about almost any aspect of media production.

But "flat" "2D" text doesn't automatically mean the design is going to look like it's well put together.

Bad design is bad design.

Good design that has been outdated, will come back around.

Software based design hasn't been around enough to stand the test of time, so, in this case we are all still pioneering what may be designated as good design.

Good luck to us.


Return to posts index


David Mathis
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:52:06 pm

I have no issue with a 3D title but 3D movies are a bit overrated, not to mention the motion sickness they invoke.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 2:48:56 pm

mmm. rather - I'd take any of these any day of the week.

http://annyas.com/screenshots/2000-2004/

Wes Anderson has been working neatly with perfect weights and placements of Futura in whites yellows and hot pale blues for twenty years.

The idea that the presence of material shaders, brass rust and complex profile bevels equates to typography like the fancy films do it kind of says everything about FCPX and its natural market cheerleaders. In terms of successful titling, you'd think the fact that its keyframing system is mangled would be considered a bit of a serious problem. But... apparently not, given it can produce cheesy 3D titles that look just like them there big fancy fantasy films

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 3:14:13 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "big fancy fantasy films"


Outside of that......

T-mobil has a national ad out, that I saw yesterday with 3D graphics

Somebody better tell them that they don't know what they are doing so they can yank it


Return to posts index


Andy Neil
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 3:56:30 pm

I feel like it's super weird to get angry over a feature. I can see people wanting to have had their pet improvement take a higher priority than one they feel they won't get much use out of, but to actively bash the titles as being "cheesy" is really to be missing the point.

One: The titles are NOT cheesy. Or more correctly, they are only cheesy when created that way either by intent or inexperience. Basically, this is the issue with pretty much every single transition effect that exists in every single NLE. Does that mean we shouldn't have them? Of course not, it just means that some people will be able to get good quality out of a feature, while others will not.

Two: There is no mandate that all titles must now be 3D. Sure, I bet you'll see an uptick in you tube videos with 3D titles from those who are playing with the new feature. But who cares? It's not your work. If you're busy being annoyed by what other people are doing with their videos, then you need a hobby.

Three: What is now popular and "correct" will not always be so. Ok. So 3D titles are looked down upon in favor of clean, flat titles right now. But if you think that the 90s was the only time in video history where 3D titles were popular, then you haven't been in this game long enough. At some point, the pendulum will swing the other direction and 3D will be extremely popular again. Why rail against having a tool to make them?

Four: There is something larger that this all means. It's weird to me that all this talk has centered around 3D titles when MY takeaway has been that Motion can now create and use true 3D objects. This could be the start of something. Simple object creation. 3D light effects and smoke, volumetric lighting, 3D modeling program compatibility. 3D text is exciting for what it could mean down the road.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 4:05:17 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 19, 2015 at 4:06:13 pm

[Andy Neil] "I feel like it's super weird to get angry over a feature."

Yes it is... good post. Look, I know all the examples i posted are action franchises as Simon says... they were just easiest to find. And I too appreciate the nice, clean typography Aindreas writes of. Really, I do.

But like you said, it's a nice feature to have now. They work really well, look great, and offer some cool possibilities. That's all.

Also, I had fun making the Farce Awakens title. This sh*t is really gonna improve my YouTube cat videos! :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 4:51:28 pm

I know - and you're not wrong - it looks well implemented, and to be fair, I didn't pick 2005-2009 because 3D titles start turning up... So. For my money the 3D titles that jump into my head are Harry Potter in the later films. Big, monolithic, super moody. That slow drift through them into the opening shot is pretty iconic. That said they're some pretty serious photorealistic maya polygon creation but still, they're as 3D distressed metallic as it gets...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Dean Neal
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 2:41:47 am
Last Edited By Dean Neal on Apr 20, 2015 at 2:44:35 am

Like anything, I think the 3D Text will be of real value in the TV broadcast work I do... again subtlety is key...

A nice sit down interview, with a nice depth-of-field name-strap placement using the Z-axis for example with this new text feature...will work well.

I know Fox Sports here in Australia use a lot of similar techniques here:



Again, Aindreas takes to the task of bashing FCPX with a sledgehammer without any real respect for the detailed analysis of the features added.

Dean Neal...


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 4:23:05 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "It is of course not without irony that every single one of your examples is a retro franchise in one way or another ... "

I know, it was by design. Also it was easier to find current examples on youtube. lol I'm sure if I looked I could find some nice, original indie feature trailers with 3D titles.

[Simon Ubsdell] "On top of that some of them look as though they may have been done as 2D anyway ... a texture and a bevel on their own don't make 3D."

Very true. But a "flat" title with a 3D bump map/texture and lighting is generally going to look better than the same thing created as 2D. That's the more likely use... for me anyway. I agree the examples I posted are closer to the over the top Apple Demo titles than anything with taste and refinement. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:15:14 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:23:13 pm

[Charlie Austin] "a "flat" title with a 3D bump map/texture and lighting is generally going to look better than the same thing created as 2D.

I'd seriously have to dispute that - it all depends on the skill of the designer. There are a thousand and one techniques for creating extremely subtle, interesting and complex effects in 2D. But obviously the Apple tool makes it a lot easier for the novice to get something that looks almost as good as a well-designed 2D title.

Ironically, by far the most striking and iconic title in your group of trailers is Star Wars - and the thing that makes it truly iconic is the faux-naif flat outline component, which was of course retro way back when we first saw it!

[Charlie Austin] I agree the examples I posted are closer to the over the top Apple Demo titles than anything with taste and refinement. ;-)"

I was only pulling your leg really with that comment (I'm sure Aindreas is just in it for the gags too, if he's honest!), but my point was not that the movies are all franchises of one kind of another, but that they all hark back to another era. And hence the point was that their use of 3D is not fresh and modern but consciously retro.

There's a thing here that really bugs me as someone who's been making trailers for along as I have, and that's the presumption that all real trailers have 3D metallic titles. As you know better than anyone else this is about as crass as assuming that all trailers still currently employ a big, booming voice-over that begins by announcing "In a world ...".

Yes, it does seem that 3D is making something of a comeback but it's worth pointing out that this is after a really long period when the dominant aesthetic was flat - except for huge Summer tentpole releases.

But if you want to see some really great 3D titles, here's a terrific piece (Some breathtakingly good, some breathtakingly bad):







For me, the 3D titles that get me excited are things like the Transformers title - it's about so much more than just the text aspect. The text is usually subsidiary to some really strong 3D geometry that dominates the design - e.g the Narnia title would look pretty weak without the 3D mountain background to give it depth and colour contrast and an epic sense of scale; Mars Needs Moms is made by the cute little rocket animation, etc.

Titles are only ever as good as the designer, as this reel shows.

I absolutely agree that you can create great looks very easily with Apple's offering - but as you yourself suggested, the less they actually look like 3D they better they will look, most of the time. I'm just hoping we aren't assailed by a foetid slurry of unspeakable design on the back of this - but I'm not holding my breath.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:28:28 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:36:49 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'd seriously have to dispute that - it all depends on the skill of the designer. There are a thousand and one techniques for creating extremely subtle, interesting and complex effects in 2D."

Agreed. My point, such as it is, is that 3D text that's as easy 2d text in an NLE is not a useless feature. Whether it's good to use is another topic. ;-)

[Simon Ubsdell] "the Apple tool makes it a lot easier for the novice to get something that looks almost as good as a well-designed 2D title.
"


Yep... that describes my mograph skillzz. :-)

[Simon Ubsdell] "There's a thing here that really bugs me as someone who's been making trailers for along as I have, and that's the presumption that all real trailers have 3D metallic titles. As you know better than anyone else this is about as crass as assuming that all trailers still currently employ a big, booming voice-over that begins by announcing "In a world ..."."

Absolutely true. Big action, horror etc, usually do use 3D-ish stuff. But there are a lot of great 2D titles as well. I really only dragged these out since we're talking about 3D. Speaking of blockbusters, I like the Mad Max title treatment which seems 2D... who knows... And nobody uses VO anymore. It'll make a comeback though. I believe you can record VO in FCP X too! lol


[Simon Ubsdell] " I'm just hoping we aren't assailed by a foetid slurry of unspeakable design on the back of this - but I'm not holding my breath."

Well, since nobody that cuts Trailers use FCP X, any 3D text will be coming from somewhere else. ;-) But YouTube is gonna be lousy with 'em...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 5:32:25 pm

Yeah, well, when the Mac first came out in 1984 - there was a brief flurry when far too much simple communication looked like ransom notes. And the use of San Francisco as a font was a sure sign of a type newbie.

But things settled down.

And today, all these years later - the FACT that the Mac ecosystem is almost universally acknowledged to be typesetter-friendly is probably part of why the "temp" fonts in Focus ended up being brought across into the final film.

You've got to start somewhere - even if that somewhere includes "extra extrusion."

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 6:58:14 pm







Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 19, 2015 at 10:28:33 pm

to be fair - given the PPro text tool is like livetype took acid and decided to try and be a mini photoshop inside an editing system - that stuff really doesn't look bad at all. the per character dynamics and turns are fab? God be with the days of invigorator in AE.

but you'd think it's a mortal lock adobe are going to hit typography in PPro inside the next few revs. And that will mean native character paragraph panels with all the trimmings. For my part I think adobe are gone all out to the mattresses on PPro. Relative to the 2 million base apple assembled with FCP7 in mid 2010, you'd think adobe have eyed that and have gamed out PPro as the best thin end of the CC adoption wedge for at least the next 12-18 months of projections. As the producer in the pre-nab talk highlighted - this stuff, their performance executing their CC software, is, bar the marketing cloud stuff, quite literally all they care about in the world.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 12:54:44 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 20, 2015 at 1:34:08 am

Um... yeah. Guess one could see that coming. They do look really nice but, all due respect to The Ripple Guys (and Szymon too) templates like these are more or less useless to me. Way too over the top, I'd be laughed out of the room for submitting something like this. But they're not meant for me... Now, if someone clever were to make some "classy and possibly actually useable" templates, I'd be all in. Thing is, you'd probably sell like 10 copies. These wild things will fly (in 3D!) off the shelf... lol

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 1:22:40 pm

Up to the artist to use any tool with discretion.

Apple could have just as easily showcased stuff like this...

http://images.apple.com/media/us/mac/motion-5/2015/tour/3d-titles/motion5-3...

But when the goal is to wake up discussion and build buzz, more is often ... well. more.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 4:50:03 pm

Prepare to have your mind blow, those of you who mock the 3-D type.
If you use drop shadow.... you're making "3-d type".

Or at least the illusion of it.


We survived the heady days of Kiki Wipes and Falling sheep transitions; this too shall pass.

As to the idea that the fonts as shown are too "over the top" for "practical" use, well, I think if you play with the settings on them, you will find there's more potential there for "conservative" applications than you might at first suspect.


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: It is patently obvious...
on Apr 20, 2015 at 5:03:26 pm

I'm completely shocked by this difference of opinions regarding design choices.

I was also wondering why this place couldn't just be called "Cow".


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]