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The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?

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Simon Ubsdell
The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 7:16:12 pm

Is it just me or does anyone feel that Motion is now simply the helper app for FCP X?

I'm not sure I see anything in the latest release (and this has been true for a good long time now) that indicates anyone is working on Motion as an application in its own right.

I'd really love to be wrong (because I really, really like Motion and I'd like nothing more than to see it deliver on its potential), but to me the signs aren't good.

Is there actually "a Motion team" anymore or is it just "the FCP X team" (or whoever's been released from watch duty this week) stumbling around in the innards of an application that they don't really understand or care about in order to feed the FCP X beast?

What does anybody else think?

Or are you very, very excited about the new generators?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Nick Toth
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 7:34:49 pm

C'mon Simon - they've been busy with the watch...

anickt


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 8:23:21 pm

Apple is just lulling the competition into a false sense of security. Once everyone thinks Motion is dead *BOOM* Apple drops the Motion X bomb and game changes the game of motion FX forever!!1!!


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 8:29:47 pm

Great answer - I'll buy that ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:27:04 pm

Embedding a true 3D engine is no small update. In reality This FCP 10.2 update was a motion update in that regard.

Seeing Motion axis in the FCP canvas to me is a sign of things to come that just aren't finished yet. I think Apple wanted to throw us an NAB bone, but I hope there a bigger update coming to both in 6 months. Actually, there's not a whole lot I'd change about Motion. It'd be nice to have multiple comps in a project and a render que. I'd also like to be able to open a group in its own timeline like a Pre-comp. but if I had to choose pre-comps or groups, groups win easily.

I for one have completely ditched AE after 20 years and have been pleasantly surprised at how much more powerful Motion is in almost every regard that counts (for me). Working in Motion is like working in an editor. Not like AE. I was actually thinking about doing a compete edit in Motion.

I often do the publishing thing and make a template, but usually I export video from FCP and bring it to Motion to create stuff from scratch and render it out as ProRes. They need to bring back roundtriping. My number one FCP request.

And I appreciate your tuts! Probably going to get your new keyed for sure. I do a lot of green screen in Motion.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:40:19 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:41:09 pm

[Bret Williams] "And I appreciate your tuts! Probably going to get your new keyed for sure. I do a lot of green screen in Motion."

Hawaiki Keyer is really nice. Also, as I'm someone who just bumbles around in Motion, are the alleged keyframe improvements an improvement? I haven't played with it much since it came out...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:45:29 pm

You still can't lasso them. It's the standard click, shift click, or cmd click then copy and paste. Yes it's functional. Kind of a software 101 thing, but after 10 years they fixed it. Sometimes I wonder...

I just bumble too. But making myself do Motion now instead of AE and Motion is slowly feeling like home. I can always send adobe $20 if I have to use AE CC. But otherwise, if I have to use AE I use my trusty old CS5 which gets me by. For how long I'm not sure. I doubt it will work in the next OS. It has some issues in Yosemite.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:53:46 pm

[Bret Williams] "You still can't lasso them. "

That's what I was wondering... according to help docs, you can now... And i kinda got it to work, but my lack of skills lead me to believe I was doing' it wrong... Here's the relevant page:



-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 10:11:11 pm

That's always worked there. But I should read it more closely because it never worked consistently correct for me.

What they've added now is copy and paste in the timeline. Not in the keyframe editor. So you can cmd+click or shift click a set of keyframes in the timeline (where they actually make more sense to me) and paste them to other layers.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 10:25:56 pm

[Bret Williams] "What they've added now is copy and paste in the timeline. Not in the keyframe editor. So you can cmd+click or shift click a set of keyframes in the timeline (where they actually make more sense to me) and paste them to other layers."

Ah, understood. Told ya I was bumbling around... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:36:12 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 10:24:26 am

[Bret Williams] "Embedding a true 3D engine is no small update. In reality This FCP 10.2 update was a motion update in that regard. "

I absolutely agree that the 3D text feature is massive, and I'd also go so far as to say it's comfortably one of the best implementations of 3D text that I've seen anywhere, in terms of ease of use+performance+good-looking results. (Shame 3D text is currently so profoundly uncool!)

However, I think it's an illustration of my point that Motion is being used as a helper app for FCP X rather than continuing development as a product in its own right. Motion has 3D text because Apple wanted to implement it in FCP X and Motion is the graphics engine for X.

Like you, I have a very long list of bugs and enhancements that I'd like to have seen addressed - and I'd have much rather have had a few of these instead of 3D text. (Like a lot of Motion users, I'd already bought mObject for that purpose - but because none of my clients would countenance seeing 3D text in anything [you can't imagine the derision that would ensue], I haven't yet used it for any paying job!)

One of the most basic is the ability to map more commands to the keyboard which I've been asking for repeatedly for years - it's basic stuff like which really makes a difference to productivity, and to my mind there's simply no sign that Apple will ever address any of it at all. Unlike many users, I'm not asking for spectacular feature enhancements, just some very small attention to the many details that could do with being looked at - and have remained unlooked-at for years.

I find it extraordinary that some squeaky wheel user has been able to get the Timeline keyframe copy and paste feature implemented as the only real Motion-specific feature enhancement - this is so not a priority of any kind in my view. Keyframes in the Timeline are of very little value unless you have animated only one parameter. If you work with keyframes at all, there's no excuse not to get comfortable with the Keyframe Editor. The Timeline is fine for quickly moving keyframes where only one parameter is animated, but otherwise it's not the thing to be using.

And please don't get me started on the "new generators" - complete embarrassment and utterly uncalled for. I can't imagine what Apple were thinking in wasting even five minutes on implementing this utter nonsense, though if it took them longer than five minutes it would be a disgrace. (Who "designs" this stuff? In this case, none of it is even remotely demo-worthy, so what could the point possibly have been? To my mind, Apple simply look foolish by even mentioning that they've done this kind of thing.) If anyone was going to take a look at the Motion generators, the really big thing to address in my view is the Clouds generator, one of the most fundamental procedural textures with countless uses, and it's one of the areas where Motion just doesn't offer adequate quality - compare Ae's Fractal Noise for how it should be done, same concept, different league altogether.

As DRW points out below, Motion is not a money spinner in the same league as FCP X and is never going to get the same love for that reason, but the complete lack of attention to it in its own right now goes back four or five years at least and that's something that I think gets lost in the razzmatazz that accompanies new features which are only there because they service FCP X, the first and most obvious of those being rigging and publishing.

[Bret Williams] "And I appreciate your tuts! Probably going to get your new keyed for sure. I do a lot of green screen in Motion."

Many thanks. I'll be doing a keying tutorial for Motion shortly which illustrates some very useful high-end compositing techniques for getting better results with your keys. BTW, if you are looking at Hawaiki Keyer, I should just mention that it works in FCP X, After Effects and Premiere Pro, and not just Motion 5.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Ronny Courtens
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:32:46 am

Hey Simon,

Not only is there still a strong Motion team, there also is a new Product Manager for Motion who seems very ambitious. And: what Andrew said.

- Ronny


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:39:39 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:48:34 am

[Ronny Courtens] "Not only is there still a strong Motion team, there also is a new Product Manager for Motion who seems very ambitious. And: what Andrew said."

That's great to hear - but of course, since I'm just a humble punter here with no inside track on any of it, I can only go on my perception of what's been happening for the last five or more years. Or rather what's not been happening.

Roll on Motion X, I say!

Meanwhile here's Ron Brinkmann again:

"And the features that high end customers need are often very very unsexy. They don’t look particularly good in a demo. See, here’s the thing with how features happen at Apple to a great extent – product development is often driven by how well things can be demoed. Maybe not explicitly – nobody ever told me to only design features that demoed well – but the nature of the organization effectively makes it work out that way. Because a lot of decisions about product direction make their way very far up the management hierarchy .... And so the first question that comes up is ‘how are we going to show this feature within the company?’ All the mid-level managers know that they’re going to have a limited window of time to convey what makes a product or a feature special to their bosses. So they either 1) make a sexy demo or 2) spend a lot of time trying to explain why some customer feels that some obscure feature is worth implementing. Guess which strategy works best?"

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 7:32:47 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 8:37:23 am

[Ronny Courtens] "Not only is there still a strong Motion team, there also is a new Product Manager for Motion who seems very ambitious. And: what Andrew said."

I think if I were "on the Motion Team" skateboarding to work in Venice, CA, to meet up with my "ambitious new Product Manager", I'd be pretty embarrassed that a bug like this one was still not fixed, however smug and superior I might be feeling about my shiny new "Nineties Vibe" 3D text thingy ...

Here's a blue wall, facing the camera and sitting on a red floor. Behind the blue wall are two green sidewalls, and despite what appears to be the case, the front edges of the green walls do no intersect with the blue wall, they are in fact 6 pixels back away from it in Z space.



Here's the Top view showing the gap between the side walls and the front wall:



If we move the camera round just a bit, we can see that the problem lessens:



I call this the "edge on" bug because what is happening is that when planes are viewed more or less edge on to camera they will appear to poke through any foreground plane. Changing the angle of view makes the issue recede.

I first pointed out this bug well over a year ago and it is still not fixed in the latest release of Motion. (And yes, this is a genuine real world issue that is really tricky to combat, and yes, I do know a little bit about how Motion works.)

What does it say about a product's development when a bug/design flaw as egregious as this remains unaddressed?

It's all very well being super-confident about Apple's future plans for Motion - how about being reasonably confident that they'll getting around to doing a bit of basic bug fixing at some point?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 5:25:54 pm

Just curious if Adobe has ever fixed the exact same bug in After Effects. Actually, I'd say it's much worse. But the result is always the same. Entire planes jump behind and in front of each other as you pan rotate the camera around. I was surprised when I switched to Motion to find it had the same issue more or less.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 5:44:17 pm

[Bret Williams] "Just curious if Adobe has ever fixed the exact same bug in After Effects. Actually, I'd say it's much worse. But the result is always the same. Entire planes jump behind and in front of each other as you pan rotate the camera around."

Ae does not exhibit the bug Simon shows above.

If I'm right about what you're describing, it's not a bug. It's by design.

Some operations are necessarily 2D, and performing these on 3D layers in Ae will "break" 3D space, including layer intersections and shadow-casting. More here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/after-effects/using/3d-layers.html#3d_layer_interac...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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David Roth Weiss
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 5:52:40 pm

If it's any consolation, Autodesk Combustion, designed by the original team who went on to become the Motion team, had exactly the same issues.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:09:19 pm

Well what I'm describing is actually similar, and it shows itself when you're doing things like making full on objects like boxes. Boxes are obviously common building blocks. What I'll see quite a bit is a layer order issue. You build a complex 3D object and nest it correctly with continuous raster on, etc.. It interacts in 3D space with other nested 3D objects to a point. And then, for no reason that I can find, as the camera orbits or the objects rotate they will suddenly jump in front or behind the other in the render stack. Maybe it's fixed in CC2014 but it wasn't in CC. You'll think there's a 2D layer or an effect in there somewhere that kicks in on that frame, but then you move the camera just a little bit in z space and suddenly it'll be right again. So to me it's very similar and just as devastating to a comp. Sometimes, you'll just have 2 layers sandwiched together with a pixel between them, but as the camera moves in or around, the foreground object will intersect the background object fully or only halfway, as if you just tilted it. My guess is that there is some mathematical calculation that breaks down at some level.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 9:23:47 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Apr 15, 2015 at 11:54:34 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Is there actually "a Motion team" anymore or is it just "the FCP X team" (or whoever's been released from watch duty this week) stumbling around in the innards of an application that they don't really understand or care about in order to feed the FCP X beast?"

lol. Can't answer most of that, but I do know there is an separate Motion team. I think they're here in LA.

Actually... I believe they're working on a version of Motion for the Watch, so maybe that's why there aren't a lot of new features in the desktop app. I've heard rumors it will run only on the "Apple Watch Pro", which will be unveiled at NAB next year. It's gonna be awesome. :-p

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Roth Weiss
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 15, 2015 at 11:08:01 pm

The "Motion Team" as they are often referred to are located in Venice, CA. My understanding is, they were all pulled off of Motion a few years back and put on the iPhone graphics detail, before returning to their original Motion development gig. I think they routinely get pulled onto other gigs, as I just can't see Apple deriving a whole lot of revenue via Motion.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:17:31 am

[David Roth Weiss] "The "Motion Team" as they are often referred to are located in Venice, CA."

I don't know if it's more depressing to discover that there actually is a current "Motion Team" rather than that there isn't one.

At least if they didn't exist, one could account for them having done nothing for the last 5+ years ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 12:57:22 pm

Simon, what do you want Motion to be?

Here's how Apple positions Motion:

"An interface designed especially for editors. Smart templates for making changes on the fly during editing. And easy‑to‑use motion graphics tools for creating eye-catching titles, transitions, and effects. Motion is the perfect companion to Final Cut Pro."

http://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/motion/

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:11:27 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Here's how Apple positions Motion:"

Yes, I've noticed that there has been a distinct repositioning of Motion in the marketing blurb - as I have been trying to point, it's now being positioned ever more firmly as the helper app for FCP X and Apple are in agreement with me on that.

Doubtless Motion X will change all that but for now this does seem to be the case.

What I'd like to see happen is very modest stuff indeed - just fix a few obvious things that could do with fixing (I mention a particularly egregious bug in another post here), and add just a few easily implemented features that would improve productivity.

Unlike many/most who ask for updates to Motion, I'm not expecting it to become Ae overnight or indeed ever, but I would like to see it treated as an actual live product in its own right, rather than the curious dormant zombie FCP X battery cell that it has become.

The first sign that all was not well for me was the crazy pricing of the Motion 5 release: Apple effectively telling us in the most obvious terms the value they decided to place on the product.

But of course Panglossian sources close to Apple tell me I'm flat out wrong to be talking this way and everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds, so I'd best shut up ...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:22:19 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Unlike many/most who ask for updates to Motion, I'm not expecting it to become Ae overnight or indeed ever, but I would like to see it treated as an actual live product in its own right, rather than the curious dormant zombie FCP X battery cell that it has become."

Herein lies my question. What does that actual live product look like? What use cases should they prioritize development around, if not being FCP X's special helper?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:24:03 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:48:34 pm

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Isn't that like saying what possible use could you find for Ae if not as a helper app for Pr?

But I'm sure you mean something more subtle than that ...

Incidentally, I know of many, many Motion users who don't use or own FCP X.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:36:44 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I'm not sure I understand the question. Isn't that like saying what possible use could you find for Ae if not as a helper app for Pr? But I'm sure you mean something more subtle than that ..."

I mean something more subtle than this fill-in-the-blank:

Instead of thinking of Motion as a tool that helps editors do quick graphics/effects/tx, Apple should develop Motion to be a tool that helps ____ do _____.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:47:44 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 1:53:22 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Instead of thinking of Motion as a tool that helps editors do quick graphics/effects/tx, Apple should develop Motion to be a tool that helps ____ do _____."

Instead of thinking of Motion (solely) as a tool that helps editors do quick graphics/effects/tx, Apple should (also) develop Motion to be a tool that helps users who aren't that interested in editing or simply don't edit at all do better motion graphics and compositing.

Does that make any sense?

There are plenty of takers in that constituency, believe it or not. There are plenty of Motion users who don't own or use FCP X. Not everyone is an editor or aspires to be an editor. Motion is a terrific gateway drug for those wanting to get into mograph and compositing but for whom the challenge and/or price of grappling with Ae or Nuke is just way too high at this point in their careers.

I happen to have acquired a reasonably in-depth insight into this community (sample size: approx. 6000) and I admire and respect their aspirations - to the point of even trying to help them realise those aspirations.

Has Apple forgotten they exist? Do they not care about them? Do they have great plans for them that we don't know about?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 2:09:30 pm

The way I see it is, by porting a lot of the Motion Functionality into FCPX, Apple has created a wider space across the two applications for third-party developers to make fill-in apps and functions thru plug-ins. Apple should be aggressively courting these third-party developers now.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 2:10:54 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Apple should be aggressively courting these third-party developers now."

Instead of cutting them off at the knees, as they've just done with those nice guys at motionvfx ...?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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David Mathis
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 3:39:04 pm

I do not think Motion is a joke but can understand that perception. It has been an extension of Final Cut Pro since its inception an looks to be that way over the long term. After all it does not have the power of After Effects and is not a competitor. Given the development cycle, or rather the lack of it, there is no reason for me to believe that Motion will be anything than a companion application.

As much as the 3D text feature is super cool, the generators are useless other than creating motion sickness.
Behaviors are nice but expressions are much more powerful. One other thing that bothers me is the lack of transitions. After all, they are important which is why After Effects has them built in. The only transitions that Motion will ever have, for the moment, are the ones being made for use in FCP X, hence an extension.

Rather then waste time and money on useless stuff, bug fixes with meaningful tools being added would be a better use of resources. Then again, with price point and target audience, those factors must not be all that important. My two cents on the subject.


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 5:58:05 pm

[David Mathis] "After all it does not have the power of After Effects and is not a competitor."

Can you expand on this? And I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I kinda feel like: painting - better, particles -better, replicators - no contest, groups vs. pre comps - way better, rigging & publishing - no contest, true 3D (text) - better, 3D extendables (mObject) - similar if not better to the Andrew Kramer thing and certainly cheaper, performance - way better, and the list goes on.

I know everyone says AE is more powerful, and perhaps I don't doubt it is in some aspects that don't touch 90% of everyone's needs. I used to say it was too until I made the switch.

I'm with Simon. It's a killer app worthy of some tweaks and bug fixes to take it over the top. If Apple really want to position it as a helper app, then why no send to motion, or open in motion or roundtripping? That's not much of a helper app. In fact, you have to start in Motion from scratch no matter what you're doing unless you're updating something from the effects browser.


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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:15:03 pm

[Bret Williams] "I kinda feel like: painting - better, particles -better, replicators - no contest, groups vs. pre comps - way better, rigging & publishing - no contest, true 3D (text) - better, 3D extendables (mObject) - similar if not better to the Andrew Kramer thing and certainly cheaper, performance - way better, and the list goes on. I know everyone says AE is more powerful, and perhaps I don't doubt it is in some aspects that don't touch 90% of everyone's needs. I used to say it was too until I made the switch. "

I've often said here that Motion has a high floor, but a low ceiling. Ae has a low floor, but a higher ceiling.

I find that Motion doesn't scale as well as Ae. It's great for projects up to a certain level of complexity, then it completely falls over. Groups vs. precomps is a perfect example of this. A group is only the same thing as a precomp in a relatively simple project.

For context, I started using After Effects in the late 90s at version 4. I also used Motion heavily from v1 through v3, but only occasionally now in v5.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bret Williams
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 8:30:00 pm

Not a super power user, but I've been doing the AE thing since 1996 and version 3.0. I even used the Cosa version once. A tutorial or something. Still remember the box on the shelf. Right next to Aldus Pagemaker!

Groups, while wonderful, do clutter up the screen at some point because you have to have them all twirled open to get to them. That's why I'd love Apple to create a project shell like AE where you can get to the groups and open them individually. But if given the choice, I'm loving groups more. The ability to simply drag a layer from a group into another group or a parent group is nuts. Every time I do it I'm amazed and how much simpler it is to rearrange.

But when I'm creating a whole graphics package, man do I miss the project and render que. Having a zillion little motion projects laying around in the finder for each animation is nuts. And if you're versioning, then you have a bunch of different versions of each animation! Ugh. And of course consolidating the project is a problem because they're not one project. But none of that really hampers what gets created.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 8:46:33 pm

[Bret Williams] "But when I'm creating a whole graphics package, man do I miss the project and render que."

Complete agree about that one - that's a really big productivity enhancer and it would be great to see that implemented.

On the other hand, Motion renders so many things a lot quicker than Ae that the disadvantage of not having a render queue is lessened somewhat. It does mean you can't take the coffee break though ...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 8:59:37 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "
On the other hand, Motion renders so many things a lot quicker than Ae that the disadvantage of not having a render queue is lessened somewhat. It does mean you can't take the coffee break though ..."


I'm curious, can Motion renders be handed off to Compressor? I'm also wondering if Motion can do multi-machine renders.

Shawn



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:07:02 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:16:50 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I'm curious, can Motion renders be handed off to Compressor? I'm also wondering if Motion can do multi-machine renders. "

Yes, you can send to Compressor and hence create a batch for processing - a workflow I've tested but not actually used yet, but it's a nice suggestion. (Although, sending to Compressor, from my experience, is a bit slow and sludgy and potentially adds a lot more time than you might be saving ...)

I'm guessing that you could do multi-machine renders that way, but that I haven't tried.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:20:40 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "I'm curious, can Motion renders be handed off to Compressor? I'm also wondering if Motion can do multi-machine renders. "

Yes, you can send to Compressor and hence create a batch for processing - a workflow I've tested but not actually used yet, but it's a nice suggestion.

I'm guessing that you could do multi-machine renders that way, but that I haven't tried."


That is nice. Is it just for image sequences like AE, or can Compressor compile frames from different machines into single files?

Shawn

Shawn



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:30:33 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Is it just for image sequences like AE, or can Compressor compile frames from different machines into single files? "

I have to confess it's a long time since I used Compressor having moved over entirely to AME in the last couple of years, simply because it gets most jobs done way faster, but yes, it segments and recombines across multiple machines and not just for image sequences - or at least it used to when I last tried.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 9:38:51 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "Is it just for image sequences like AE, or can Compressor compile frames from different machines into single files? "

I have to confess it's a long time since I used Compressor having moved over entirely to AME in the last couple of years, simply because it gets most jobs done way faster, but yes, it segments and recombines across multiple machines and not just for image sequences - or at least it used to when I last tried."


Very nice. I wish the AME could do that. If it could, I would send everything out for network rendering... I guess I could make a feature request. :-)

Shawn



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David Mathis
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:22:40 pm

[Bret Williams] "[David Mathis] "After all it does not have the power of After Effects and is not a competitor."

Can you expand on this? And I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I kinda feel like: painting - better, particles -better, replicators - no contest, groups vs. pre comps - way better, rigging & publishing - no contest, true 3D (text) - better, 3D extendables (mObject) - similar if not better to the Andrew Kramer thing and certainly cheaper, performance - way better, and the list goes on."


Expressions vs Parameters: Both are good but expressions open up a much more opportunity for more complex animations. There are no if then conditions in Motion which there are in After Effects, for example.

One way expressions could be useful would be in how particles behave. You could have the speed of another layer determine how many particles there are (if any) or determine other physical aspects of the particles such as size. This would be if one is using Trapcode Particular, which is an added cost.

Parenting, this can be done in Motion but requires linking properties together and adding another layer to the mix, on occasion.
While you can choose which properties to link, they are all there in After Effects, which requires a little less tweaking.

Masking tools are a mixed bag. The feather (softness) property affects both the x and y values inside of Motion. With the tools in After Effects, these can be controlled independently. On the flip side image masks are more flexible then say a track matte.

On the flip side, Motion does have content built in that After Effects does not. There is also true 3D text which is nice. I also prefer groups, much easier to maintain and handle. Not having to render everything is also very nice.

I guess it all boils down to what the needs of the end user are. I hope I have clarified my points a bit more, if not I will be happy to answer any more questions.

No offense taken and hope none given. Always nice to see other points of view. This is why the Cow is such a great place to go for advice and debate!


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Steve Connor
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:49:02 pm

Perhaps Apple are happy where Motion sits - it's a fine, easy to learn Motion Graphics tool for Editors who don't know Ae and don't need the extra power it has.

I use it all the time, if the graphics are more complex then I use an AE artist


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 7:00:59 pm

[David Mathis] "You could have the speed of another layer determine how many particles there are (if any) or determine other physical aspects of the particles such as size."

Really easy to do with linking in Motion - expressions not needed for that example.

[David Mathis] "Masking tools are a mixed bag. The feather (softness) property affects both the x and y values inside of Motion. "

You can do this the way that VFX folk often do which is to use a blur filter (e.g. the Gaussian in Motion) on the mask so you can control the X and Y blur independently.

Sometimes what's missing is not the tools but the knowledge of how to create effects - and your own "tools" - out of the simplest building blocks.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 11:21:19 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Sometimes what's missing is not the tools but the knowledge of how to create effects - and your own "tools" - out of the simplest building blocks."

not fair - you're sat snug inside that stately mind palace. Not for everyone to preconceive any given outcome inside any point of a tool chain.
That's why God invented after effects. It has decision gravity.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shawn Miller
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 7:06:49 pm

[Bret Williams] "3D extendables (mObject) - similar if not better to the Andrew Kramer thing and certainly cheaper, performance - way better,"

I think you're forgetting about Cineware and the inclusion of C4D light. Cinema 4D with AE is just in a different class than Motion with mObject, if you're talking about 3D extensibility, especially when AE is paired with C4D Broadcast or C4D Studio. Lastly, if you're talking 3D "stuff" in AE, you can't leave out the 3D tracker. Those are just a few of the things that make AE a more flexible authoring tool.

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 5:33:53 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Instead of thinking of Motion (solely) as a tool that helps editors do quick graphics/effects/tx, Apple should (also) develop Motion to be a tool that helps users who aren't that interested in editing or simply don't edit at all do better motion graphics and compositing. Does that make any sense?"

What kinds of new functionality would you like to see to advance Motion toward that goal?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 6:15:56 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 18, 2015 at 9:11:12 am

[Walter Soyka] "What kinds of new functionality would you like to see to advance Motion toward that goal?"

Very hard to draw up a list, although the really obvious place to start looking for that list is the Ae feature set. And that's not really what I think should be happening. It needs a lot of small improvements - all the basic stuff that they could have been working on for the last five or six years but haven't been doing.

Some very elementary things, just off the top of my head:

Fix the tracker, which is really not fit for purpose in my view even within the very limited range of what it sets out to do.

Attend to the Clouds generator - this is a fundamental procedural building block but the current implementation is really amateurish and is a serious stumbling block to achieving good-looking results.

A proper displacement filter - you can do a few things with glass distortion, refraction and bump but it's not enough. (EDIT: you can "roll your own" displacement effects quite effectively using combinations of tools, so this is not a big priority.)

A shatter filter - a really important tool. You can fudge shattering but it really doesn't do the job.

More keyboard shortcut options - the fact that you can't map some of the most basic tools really makes for an unnecessarily cumbersome workflow.

Maybe expressions - of some simple kind. Parameter behaviors can do simply amazing things if you really put your mind to it, but there are functions that you can't engineer even with the utmost ingenuity.

Fix some of those outstanding bugs!

None of these are especially big things but they would make a significant difference to what you could get out of Motion. Some could easily be provided by third parties (come to think of it!) but there's not much of a market for Motion-exclusive plug-ins that I can detect. You're not going to want to spend a lot adding a basic filter or generator to a product that's only cost you $49 in the first place ...

Essentially some attention to the basic building blocks would go a very long way towards extending what you can achieve with Motion.

But most of all, please don't let them break it - which there has to be a really massive chance of them doing ...

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Richard Herd
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 16, 2015 at 11:59:19 pm

That's a great list. If you're a developer in Venice, CA, you go, "Hey dude, we need to fix all this stuff. But why?"

The devil's advocate is all: "Well, AE has Cineware built right in."

"Yeah....That's where we should start: a 3D module."

"People are gonna laugh at us for the 3D text."

"That's ok. Once the camera, textures, and lighting is built in, we can fix the camera tracker and make masks extrude, from the masks they made in X."

"Sweet bra. Let's go surf."


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 17, 2015 at 12:03:15 am

[Richard Herd] ""Sweet bra. Let's go surf."
"


lol... your image of Venice is outdated. it's all Latté swilling yuppies and tourists now. And gang-bangers of course, they never left. The surfers have mostly moved on... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 17, 2015 at 12:04:21 am

[Richard Herd] ""Sweet bra. Let's go surf.""

That's a funny thing to say before going "surfing"?

Brah, maybe? Or Bruh if you're midwestern?


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Richard Herd
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 17, 2015 at 1:21:28 am

Gender equality in post.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 17, 2015 at 8:24:50 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Attend to the Clouds generator - this is a fundamental procedural building block but the current implementation is really amateurish and is a serious stumbling block to achieving good-looking results.
"


please Mr. Simon, tell me say... five interesting, generally unthought of things, that can be initiated with the cloud generator, which I guess is basically fractal noise, that you might do.

I use AE turbulent displace once in a blue moon? which is a shortcut to some of the outcomes, but spill some hidden knowledge sure. I'm curious? Is it all distort type stuff?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Motion 5 update - some examples for Aindreas
on Apr 18, 2015 at 3:23:50 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 18, 2015 at 3:24:23 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "please Mr. Simon, tell me say... five interesting, generally unthought of things, that can be initiated with the cloud generator, which I guess is basically fractal noise, that you might do. "

I know that my pronouncements are typically short on detail/evidence, so here's a quick test I knocked up for you that shows how you might use the Clouds generator (alias Fractal Noise generator) to create flames:







If you use the exact same techniques in Ae, you'd get a seriously great effect, but the deficiencies of the Motion Clouds generator let this down quite badly.

I can't say that these are especially interesting or unthought of cases but here are a few instances where I've used the Motion Clouds generator:

Nebula scene (how to try and add a bit of extra detail to the result and make up for the general crumminess of the generator):





Atmospherics (subtle quasi-volumetric atmosphere):





Volumetric fog (quasi-volumetric effect using multiple instances):





Organic wipe:





Shockwave (OK, so this isn't using Clouds cos they're rubbish, but it would have used them if they were better implemented):





Water:





Solar flares (again would have been massively improved if Clouds weren't such pants):





Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Motion 5 update - some examples for Aindreas
on Apr 19, 2015 at 8:58:28 pm

ah fair play simon. they're great tutorials. grand sunday evening watch there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Mathis
Re: The Motion 5 update - do you feel excited?
on Apr 18, 2015 at 2:16:33 am

For some reason 3D text reminds me of Live Type being brought back to life from a mad scientist. Evil laugh.


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