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tony west
swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 6:22:46 am
Last Edited By tony west on Mar 2, 2015 at 6:24:26 am

I like the music







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Andrew Kimery
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 6:46:28 am

I was hoping for Yakety Sax.


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 9:28:46 am

How easily one forgets.

lt is utterly brilliant.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 10:11:27 am

:D ... nice. To think that some are literally still having to do the exact same timeline Tango with the most current version of their NLE. Unless there were some MAJOR changes in other NLEs that I missed? And the same people make sure to never miss a beat when it comes time to tell everyone what a massive f***-up the magnetic timeline is, how Apple betrayed them, yadda yadda yadda... ;)

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 1:45:57 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " To think that some are literally still having to do the exact same timeline Tango with the most current version of their NLE. Unless there were some MAJOR changes in other NLEs that I missed?"

No, I don't think you've missed anything, although Ppro, unlike FCP7, does allow you to swap/move groups of clips, but you would still have to move some things around to match the demo example. So yes, you've now made the entire case for the magnetic timeline -- it is clearly superior to any other NLE for this type of operation.

Which has been acknowledged since the first Demo at NAB.

The argument has never been whether the MagTimeline was better at this, since it clearly is, the argument has been - but at what cost?

How often during your week do you swap this sort of complex collection of clips vs how often do you look at that undifferentiated mass of clips trying to figure out what is where? Is the time saving (which this demo pushed to it's furthest limits) in swapping worth the time lost to confusion. If the way you organize your work leads to a Yes to that question, then FCPX is clearly for you. However the opposite holds true as well. There is no free lunch and choice of NLE is based on individual workflow.

[Robin S. Kurz] " And the same people make sure to never miss a beat when it comes time to tell everyone what a massive f***-up the magnetic timeline is, how Apple betrayed them, yadda yadda yadda... ;)"

The Apple betrayal has nothing to do with the magnetic timeline, it has to do with the sudden EOL of FCP7 etc., etc ...

Which is a discussion about marketing and business practices, much like the discussion about Adobe's total switch to subscriptions. While both discussions involve the underlying software, they are not really about them.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 3:04:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but at what cost?"

Absolutely none that I am aware of. Quite the contrary.


[Herb Sevush] "how often do you look at that undifferentiated mass of clips trying to figure out what is where?

All the time. Only, thanks to things such as elaborate filtering, tagging, a timeline index etc. etc. etc., those moments are extremely short lived. Exponentially shorter than with any other NLE I have ever used. And yes, I've used them all at some point or another during the last 20+ years, thank you.


[Herb Sevush] "Is the time saving […] worth the time lost to confusion."

I unfortunately have absolutely no clue which "confusion" you could be referring to. And if you actually think that this is somehow the only example that demonstrates how much of a huge time saver the MT is, then you clearly do not know enough about X i.e. have insufficient practical experience/knowledge to know better. But that's fine. And why PPro is your weapon of choice. Great.


[Herb Sevush] "it has to do with the sudden EOL of FCP7"

Sure. Never mind that it still works to this day. Totally worth the uproar. :-))))

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 3:28:34 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Only, thanks to things such as elaborate filtering, tagging, a timeline index etc. etc. etc., those moments are extremely short lived."

So apparently X is now capable of filtering, tagging, and assigning roles automatically, taking no time whatsoever. I must have missed that update. Or did you mean that once you spent the time necessary on the front end things went smoothly. But of course that's time that need not be spent at all on other systems, so maybe the speed you talk of isn't as speedy as it sounds.

[Robin S. Kurz] "Exponentially shorter than with any other NLE I have ever used. And yes, I've used them all at some point or another during the last 20+ years, thank you."

Even you can't possibly expect anyone to take that statement seriously, can you. I doubt you could name 20 of the fifty or so NLEs of the past 20+ years let alone have used them. But lets assume you meant to say you have used many of the major NLEs of the past 20 years. How is it faster to know what's on a trackless track where you have to highlight individual roles or look at index's then it is to know what's on a timeline with dedicated tracks where you know what something is merely by it's position?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 3:55:17 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Mar 4, 2015 at 3:55:59 pm

[Herb Sevush] "So apparently X is now capable of filtering, tagging, and assigning roles automatically"

Erm... yeah. I guess you DID miss that update. They're called Folders and Finder Tags. Or even EVENT filter settings, which require zero changes or additional input to work accordingly.


[Herb Sevush] "Or did you mean that once you spent the time necessary on the front end things went smoothly."

You mean, as you said, as with any other NLE? Yeah. That is... at least to a point. Only that once IN the X I have many more additional options than elsewhere. And even various previous work I do in the Finder is completely ignored by any other NLE, such as the aforementioned Finder Tags. But again, you're clearly missing information and correlating knowledge. No biggie.


[Herb Sevush] "[Robin S. Kurz] "Exponentially shorter than with any other NLE I have ever used"

Even you can't possibly expect anyone to take that statement seriously"


The speed? Certainly no one that has little to no experience actually working with X, no.

But of course you would take the "all" literally. Have I ever edited on Movie Maker. No, you're right, I haven't. Mea culpa. I was talking about those on the Mac for one, and also any that are "relevant" or were considered to be at some point. I'll let you figure out which those could be. So yeah, wow, you totally got me.


[Herb Sevush] "How is it faster to know what's on a trackless track where you have to highlight individual roles or look at index's then it is to know what's on a timeline"

Huh? I don't in fact give a hoot which role any audio has until maybe EXPORT. And there's actually more info to go on, if needed, than just waveforms btw. In case you missed that, too. :-D

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 5:02:45 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " Have I ever edited on Movie Maker. No, you're right, I haven't. Mea culpa. I was talking about those on the Mac for one, and also any that are "relevant" or were considered to be at some point."

Ahh, only Mac NLE's. So in your world everything is just apples to oranges.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Witthaus
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 4, 2015 at 6:16:38 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Certainly no one that has little to no experience actually working with X, no."

Bingo!

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 9:26:36 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[Robin S. Kurz] "Certainly no one that has little to no experience actually working with X, no."

Bingo!"


Right? Since how would they know that e.g. clips can be optionally shown by their assigned roles in the timeline, if they actually knew what they were talking about and not just arguing without rhyme nor reason. ;))

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 1:23:46 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Right?"

Now, now Robin. You could have stopped right there and we would have all got it! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 1:38:10 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Mar 5, 2015 at 1:39:43 pm

Nah. It clearly shouldn't have started to begin with. :-P



- RK


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 1:50:20 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "clips can be optionally shown by their assigned roles in the timeline, if they actually knew what they were talking about and not just arguing without rhyme nor reason."

Pardon my ignorance, I know I'm not supposed to ask questions because I've never used X, but didn't you previously state that you only used roles for export?

"I don't in fact give a hoot which role any audio has until maybe EXPORT."

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/78456

If so, then how could it help you during the actual edit?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 6:28:16 pm

Herb,

Roles has both organizational and "reporting" functions.

You setup your Roles categories. Then as you create or import assets you assign them into those categories.

During the edit, the Timeline Index allows you to search or visually highlight the clips in your storyline BY Role - so during an edit, if you want to do something with JUST your titles - you could select the Titles Role and isolate just those assets, no matter where on the storyline they're hiding or, for example, how small they might be.

Then the big deal is during export, where if you've created roles (or sub-roles) for elements such as dialog, music, titles, etc, you can export various combinations of visuals and/or audio by choosing which roles to enable during the export and which to omit.

Hope that helps.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 5, 2015 at 7:01:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "Roles has both organizational and "reporting" functions."

That was very clear and concise, and it also matches what I understood before. I have only 2 points to make about roles - They are not automatic as some time must be spent assigning clips to their roles and also that using a timeline index is not as instantaneous as merely looking at a tracked timeline. I understand that time spent assigning roles can pay dividends in many ways and also that using the timeline index is not laborious, however to deny that tracks have any organizational advantages whatsoever seems a bit extreme.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 7, 2015 at 1:05:44 am

[Herb Sevush] "I understand that time spent assigning roles can pay dividends in many ways and also that using the timeline index is not laborious, however to deny that tracks have any organizational advantages whatsoever seems a bit extreme.
"


The thing is, nobody's saying that tracks have NO advantages. .

Just that those advantages may actually have less importance than they once did before something like Roles was available to do a huge part of the work that tracks used to have to do.

You're conditioned to "seeing" tracks. So the lack of that feels like a loss. Most of us get that - and respect it.

But you also have to see now that there are increasing numbers of guys who have lived with Tracks for the bulk of their careers, who've now gone "trackless" via X and honestly feel that instead of losing capabilities - they've actually gained new capabilities worth far more than what they've lost.

Doesn't make it Gospel. But it certainly is worth noting. That's all.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 7, 2015 at 2:16:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "The thing is, nobody's saying that tracks have NO advantages. . "

No, somebody was.

[Bill Davis] "But you also have to see now that there are increasing numbers of guys who have lived with Tracks for the bulk of their careers, who've now gone "trackless" via X and honestly feel that instead of losing capabilities - they've actually gained new capabilities worth far more than what they've lost. "

I agree with this statement without reservations.

Gaining more than you've lost is the point of this whole discussion and everyone should evaluate their workflow to see which NLE gains them the most and loses them the least, but to believe there are no trade-offs is just silly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 7, 2015 at 10:42:01 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "The thing is, nobody's saying that tracks have NO advantages. . "

No, somebody was."


Really? Who exactly? Sure would love to see that quote. Oddly I've gone through the entire thread and can't see that anyone ever did.


[Herb Sevush] "Gaining more than you've lost"

So again: what have I lost? I keep forgetting. Seeing that you're so steadfast on the subject to the point of a crusade, you must have a whole long list of things you've been keeping from us the whole time?


[Herb Sevush] "but to believe there are no trade-offs is just silly."

Silly is to suggest that there are any whilst failing to actually name so much as one. I have yet to hear of any, other than mere assumptions based on personal preference/inexperience/hearsay. Not factual or technical "trade-offs" by any stretch.

But then I have no idea how anyone that doesn't even have any practical production work experience with X to begin with can even presume that they could be the judge of losses or gains either way.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 8, 2015 at 3:42:50 pm

ASKED -

"[Bill Davis] "The thing is, nobody's saying that tracks have NO advantages. . "

[Herb Sevush]"No, somebody was."

[Robin S. Kurz] Really? Who exactly? Sure would love to see that quote. Oddly I've gone through the entire thread and can't see that anyone ever did."


AND ANSWERED.

"[Herb Sevush] "but to believe there are no trade-offs is just silly."

[Robin S. Kurz] Silly is to suggest that there are any ..."


Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 9, 2015 at 9:38:54 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Mar 9, 2015 at 9:40:15 am

[Herb Sevush] "AND ANSWERED."

I unfortunately have no idea how you figure that there is any type of "answer" in there. Certainly not to the questions who supposedly made the claim or what I or anyone has supposedly "lost". Never mind the list of "trade-offs". Oh well.

But then, it's not like I was actually expecting anything on any of it... :D


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 9, 2015 at 2:45:27 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "I unfortunately have no idea how you figure that there is any type of "answer" in there. Certainly not to the questions who supposedly made the claim"

You make the claim Robin. You make it when you state that there is nothing lost when going to a trackless timeline - if nothing is lost then by definition tracked timelines can have no advantages over trackless. Since that is your position, and I have no doubt that it is your sincerely held belief, I don't see why you have such a hard time acknowledging it.

As to the "long list" of what's missing in X, I was referring to visual coherence. The lack of these visual clues is why some of the biggest X proponents on this board have asked for such things as "colored roles indicators" so you could see at a glance the nature of the audio clips on the timeline, or "lanes" whereby certain types of audio could always be found in certain areas of the timeline. These are repeated requests by editors using FCPX all the time. The lack of these features are certainly not enough to cause them to switch NLEs, but the request for them shows the trade-off required by switching to X, namely the speed and flexibility of moving clips around the magnetic timeline for the innate visual coherence of a tracked timeline.

And you should note that I'm not making a value judgement here, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm merely stating what to me is obvious, that they are different approaches, each with their own advantages, and the decision of which to use should be based on the individual editors workflow and preferences.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Witthaus
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 10, 2015 at 12:42:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm merely stating what to me is obvious, that they are different approaches, each with their own advantages, and the decision of which to use should be based on the individual editors workflow and preferences."

But Herb, just to be clear, you don't use FCPX correct? I think that is what I remembered you saying in some post? You have looked at it, perhaps own it, but don't use it in a real world environment. Is my memory correct on this? I just want to be clear on where you are making your judgment calls. So many times, on this forum and others, you see posts strongly criticizing one thing or another from a person who has never used the product! If I am wrong, I apologize.

regards -

Scott

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 10, 2015 at 9:12:58 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Herb, just to be clear, you don't use FCPX correct? I think that is what I remembered you saying in some post? You have looked at it, perhaps own it, but don't use it in a real world environment. Is my memory correct on this? I just want to be clear on where you are making your judgment calls."

Scott you are correct, as I have stated many times I have never used and never even downloaded FCPX. Weigh that however you'd like when evaluating my posts.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 8:42:19 am

[Herb Sevush] "you state that there is nothing lost when going to a trackless timeline"

Nope, sorry. You're the one speaking of supposed "losses" of which I've merely stated that I personally am not aware of. Whereby I'm still waiting on that list to even know what it is we're even talking about? Pretty straight forward and simple task I would have thought. And sorry that I can't prove a negative btw.


[Herb Sevush] "… so you could see at a glance the nature of the audio clips on the timeline"

And even though I already wrote (more than once) that there is a very easy way to do just that, you choose to ignore it and go by insinuation/assumption as opposed to actual knowledge (which seems to be the archetypal pattern of the whole discussion). Which was my point from the beginning. Merely making claims for argument sake and for lack of knowledge of even the most basic facts. Wow... quite the hubris.

And I also predicted that anything I could see one pointing to, could at best fall into the realm of "personal preference" or "habit" and certainly not "loss", which that color-coding "argument" is a perfect example of. One night argue that that could be a nice enhancement, but it's kinda hard to "lose" or "trade-off" something that one never even had (even elsewhere) to begin with, don't you think? I do.


[Herb Sevush] "These are repeated requests by editors using FCPX all the time. "

Oh! So enhancement requests are a completely unique quality of X! I had no idea! :-D


[Herb Sevush] "shows the trade-off required by switching to X"

Either you can clearly define your ever reoccurring "trade-off" with a specific example, or… you're blowing smoke (i.e. trolling). Simple. I can't see how someone basing his entire position upon logical fallacies and hearsay can be considered "a reasonable guy" by any stretch either, sorry. But I guess that's just me. I'm more of the "Put up, or..." type of guy.


[Herb Sevush] "I'm merely stating what to me is obvious, that they are different approaches, each with their own advantages, and the decision of which to use should be based on the individual editors workflow and preferences."

I'm merely stating what to me is obvious, which is, no, that's not what you've been saying or suggesting. Not even close, sorry. I can only assume you're being willfully obtuse if you want to act as if that's all you've been talking about. Disingenuous at best. You have said nothing other than that there are losses and trade-offs (is there an echo in here?) inherent with the switch to X. None of which, despite repeated requests, you are able to name specifically, but instead choose to make patently false claims and unsubstantiated presumptions as if they were fact. No idea what that has to do with "the individual editors workflow and preferences".

Especially if you're (all of a sudden) graciously allowing us those "individual workflows and preferences", in which case I have no idea what the point of the whole argument even is. Because again, that's just plain not what it has been about, so let's not pretend. Saying (to repeat it for the umpteenth time) that I'm "losing" and "trading-off" something (whatever that something is) by using X is something entirely different.

In case it's still not clear...

LOSS = if I were to go back to FCP 7 or whatever NLE it applied to, I would LOSE things like the magnetic timeline, superior metadata management, alternatives, audio-syncing etc. etc. etc. etc.
TRADE-OFF = If I were to go back to FCP 7 etc. I would be TRADING a sleek, modern interface for a fugly one.

Someone that hasn't even so much as seen or used THE DEMO of an app but still vehemently insists on "participating" in a forum for said app, can clearly only be defined as one thing. Making this whole discussion even more of a farce than it already is.


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Walter Soyka
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 2:10:01 pm

Robin and Scott, Herb's personal experience has no bearing on whether his argument is right or wrong. If his argument is wrong, either his assumptions or his logic must be wrong, so let's look at the argument rather than the man making it.

If I may paraphrase the argument (presented without value judgement):

1. A tradeoff between systems exists their sets of benefits and liabilities do not overlap.

2. Tracked NLEs provide a mechanism for the benefit of at-a-glance timeline legibility (via alignment).

3. FCPX is a not tracked NLE, and its current competitors are.

4. Requests from numerous full-time FCPX users for color-coding indicate a need for more at-a-glance timeline legibility.

5. Therefore, FCPX has a need for more at-a-glance timeline legibility -- something its competitors already have.

6. Therefore, this imbalance in benefits represents a tradeoff.


If you disagree with the argument, let's discuss where either the assumptions or the logic fails.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Scott Witthaus
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 3:35:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Herb's personal experience has no bearing on whether his argument is right or wrong."

I have no problem with anyone voicing an opinion or argument, but my point is the opinion and argument must be taken within the context of experience. Herb clearly stated that. I mean, I could argue nuclear physics, but who the hell would listen to me on that!

:-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 7:04:40 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " I mean, I could argue nuclear physics, but who the hell would listen to me on that!"

Science is a bad place to go for that analogy; you could be a clerk in a patent office or a sickly child in a remote Indian village and if your argument had merit everyone would listen, eventually. It's the ultimate arena where the argument trumps the author.

On the other hand I'm neither Einstein nor Srinivasa Ramanujan, I take no offense that my inexperience colors your reaction to what I say.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 2:44:22 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Someone that hasn't even so much as seen or used THE DEMO of an app but still vehemently insists on "participating" in a forum for said app, can clearly only be defined as one thing."

This forum is not "for" FCPX, it for the discussion around it. Read the name of the forum, I'm the "or not."

[Robin S. Kurz] "Especially if you're (all of a sudden) graciously allowing us those "individual workflows and preferences", in which case I have no idea what the point of the whole argument even is"

There is no "all of a sudden" -- the following quote is from my very first at the top of the thread:

"If the way you organize your work leads to a Yes to that question, then FCPX is clearly for you. However the opposite holds true as well. There is no free lunch and choice of NLE is based on individual workflow."

As to not having any idea of the point of this argument, well you've got me there.

[Robin S. Kurz] " One night argue that that (color coding roles) could be a nice enhancement, but it's kinda hard to "lose" or "trade-off" something that one never even had (even elsewhere) to begin with, don't you think? I do."

While it's true that no other NLE has color coded roles, that's because no other NLE needs color coded roles because they inherently have the tracked structure that color coded roles seeks to emulate. So yes, that visual structure is lost when going to FCPX and ALL tracked NLE's have it.

The fact that you don't miss it because it had no value to you does not mean there is no loss, it merely explains one of the reasons that FCPX is right for you. I never use dynamic trimming, so using FCP7 was not a problem for me, even though if I were an editor coming from Avid I might see it as a great loss. And in analyzing the two NLEs I would acknowledge that it was a deficiency in the software comparatively speaking even though I didn't use that feature.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 3:52:57 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm the "or not.""

Hey Herb

I enjoy your input because it helps me understand X better having to (in my mind at least) understand the trade offs and assess the benefits to me.

I can say from my experience that I no longer notice the trade offs or things I have 'lost' from FCP7 but still am very much aware of the things I really enjoy about FCPX that I know I did not have available to me before.

I am surprised that curiosity has not got the better of you by now and that you haven't downloaded the free trial. I think you may even surprise yourself!

http://www.apple.com/uk/final-cut-pro/trial/

Go on ... you know you want to.

best regards

James


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 4:41:12 pm

[James Ewart] "Go on ... you know you want to."

If only I were that kind of guy, but I'm not. When it comes to software I don't play the field, I'm a serial monogamist. Currently I have LIghtworks downloaded on my PC. I've had it downloaded for over a year
and I've opened it exactly once and learned nothing useful that day. I'm plenty curious but I know that unless I completely immerse myself in a piece of software to the exclusion of all else I will not get anything out of the experience. Which is why I ask questions of others and kick the tires from a distance. I have no doubts that if my business dictates that FCPX is the way to go it will satisfy my needs and I will be delighted with some things about it and be grumbling bitterly to myself about other things, which is my exact experience with every NLE I have ever used. 9 months ago when I jettisoned FCP7 my evaluation was that Ppro was the best fit for my needs and nothing since then has led me to question that decision, which doesn't mean that I don't grumble at what I perceive to be it's shortcomings as well.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 4:52:33 pm

[Herb Sevush] "which doesn't mean that I don't grumble at what I perceive to be it's shortcomings as well."

I know I'm straying off topic here but out of interest what would they be compared to FCP7?

I nearly went the Premiere route and got up to speed on basic level and it felt very like FCP7 to me.


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 5:18:42 pm

[James Ewart] "what would they be compared to FCP7?"

Mostly it's the little things. No "close all timelines except this one" command, no ability to copy and move a clip in one stroke as in FCP7. The TC indicators waste space by showing empty tracks and lack the color coding that indicated when tracks are in sync. In FCP7 whenever you entered a time code number into a field, you only had to enter the numbers you wanted changed, so that to enter a "go to" command to 1:12:37:10 if you were currently at 1:12:12:05 all you had to enter was 37:10, in Ppro you have to enter the whole number every time. The command for "joining all edits" is ridiculously complicated, there are still some bugs with aspects of switching audio when editing in multicam ... it's a bunch of little annoyances, but I'm easily aggravated.

On the other hand there are some truly amazing and often unexpected treasures that more than make up for it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 5:46:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] "On the other hand there are some truly amazing and often unexpected treasures that more than make up for it."

And you don't want to share them with us Herb?


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Herb Sevush
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 6:21:29 pm

[James Ewart] "And you don't want to share them with us Herb?"

Beyond the basics of a timeline that can handle any codec/frame rate/frame size you want without trans-coding - which at this point is the minimum requirement for a modern NLE I'd say Ppro has 3 huge advances over FCP7 -

The ability to change and refine the multiclip after it's been made. This has many ramifications - dealing with start and stop of cameras on specific angles, color correction of entire angles, replacing HD with 4K at any point --

The audio track mixer - I can now assign basic filter packs and levels to specific tracks - sync, efx, music - each gets their own specific treatment and all I have to do is put a clip on that track for the efx to be applied. So for instance if a bit of sync suddenly needs to become bckgd efx, all I have to do is move it from track 1 to track 4 and it goes from my sync compression/eq to my effects package of compression/eq.

Send to Audition. Audition's spectral analyzer allows you to fix all sorts of problems with background noise and it is an easy round trip away. A huge time saver for me.

Those 3 items would be hard to live without now that I've switched to Ppro. Some of these tools are available in X, but then I'd have to give up the spatial organization that I prefer.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 11, 2015 at 10:24:14 pm

[Herb Sevush] "When it comes to software I don't play the field, I'm a serial monogamist."

Monogamy is an adorable quality in relationships with human beings. BUT When it comes to software I think you should live a little Herb. Get out there. Dance with the devil. You might like it!


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Chris Harlan
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 9, 2015 at 3:59:38 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Seeing that you're so steadfast on the subject to the point of a crusade, you must have a whole long list of things you've been keeping from us the whole time?
"


Crusade?! You should talk! I think Herb's being quite reasonable, and I can't tell if you are purposely ignoring his observations and questions, or simply not understanding them. Believe me, Herb's not your enemy. He's a reasonable guy who sees things differently than you do.


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Steve Connor
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 1:20:08 pm

Nice!


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Bret Williams
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 1:26:20 pm

Do I have to be the one who makes the video showing the correct way to actually swap shots in FCP 7? Yeah it's a little easier in X, but there is a swap command. Just marquee the clips, hold option if I remember right, and drag to the new location and the two will swap. It's a little magnetic timeline-like function that's been there since 1999.

All the same issues with your music going out of sync will still apply in both apps.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 2:16:19 pm

[Bret Williams] "Do I have to be the one who makes the video showing the correct way to actually swap shots in FCP 7?"

You could be. But then I'd have to be the one that tells you

a) that doesn't work if dragging multiple clips (say a V1 with V2 clip). No resulting gaps are closed

and

b) that even then it wouldn't work, because that wouldn't solve the massive clip collisions that he has in this video (notice the little, oh so well known timeline-tango he does at 0:09 and 0:13), for which there's no shortcut that could spare you that.

... unless of course you were fine with truncating various audio-clips uncontrollably. In which case, you're right. Same thing. ;)

Otherwise your assertion is unfortunately false.

- RK


p.s. I just double-checked a) btw, just to be sure.

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bret Williams
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 2:38:37 pm

You're right I think. Bad memory. That cool little function in 7 only works in T mode with single clips. So a single clip swap. I could've sworn I've done it with entire sections at a time. But doesn't seem to work in 7. My bad.

However it certainly isn't as hard as that video made it out to be. A simple copy and paste insert would've been a better start.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 2:44:19 pm

[Bret Williams] "However it certainly isn't as hard as that video made it out to be. A simple copy and paste insert would've been a better start."

Oh c'mon Bret. b) would still apply.

Fact is, like it or not, there is no way of doing the same anywhere near as simple and fast in any other track-based NLE as with X, as... surprise surprise... the video illustrates perfectly. No one is saying it can't be done AT ALL elsewhere.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bret Williams
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:06:13 pm

Attemp to save face thwarted. Must resist urge to delete original post... :)


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:24:38 pm

+1 for trying though. ;-D

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:30:50 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:34:03 pm

[Bret Williams] "A simple copy and paste insert would've been a better start."

I've got too much time on my hands. Quite interesting going back actually.

For sure select clips - cut - paste insert and then delete the gap is tidier and much faster. With paste insert you don't have to worry about anything bumping into or overwriting anything which the clip makes a bit of a hoo ha out of. (Correct me if I'm wrong here please). Perhaps you do have to make sure you have linked the audio to the relevant video clip first?

What did we used to call gaps in the timeline BTW?


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Walter Soyka
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:41:42 pm

[James Ewart] "With paste insert you don't have to worry about anything bumping into or overwriting anything which the clip makes a bit of a hoo ha out of. (Correct me if I'm wrong here please)."

But you do have to worry about splitting clips that intersect the playhead on the timeline. These would require healing.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:09:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "But you do have to worry about splitting clips that intersect the playhead on the timeline. These would require healing."

Good point thanks.


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Bret Williams
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:41:41 pm

Gaps. You could also copy, then ripple delete key, then paste insert. In any app it's going to require a bit of surgery unless you just happen to have the perfect situation. For example in X, connected clips makes for a great little video clip. But it can also be part of the problem. Clips are always connected. Whether they have anything to do with what's in the primary or not. So you only have the choice to move connected clips or hold tilde and ignore connections. But what if I want the broll to come with, but not the sfx and graphics? The sfx and graphics might be then end of a section segueing into the next section. But the VO and broll might need to be rearranged together. This happens every day to me in corporate stuff. So you're back to the old school days of selecting just the parts you want to move and doing a copy paste insert dance.

But, as Robyn pointed out, in either case I'd say the best part of the magnetic timeline is the elimination of clip collisions. For me, doing a lot of layering, it's more important vertically. I can move layers up and down without inserting tracks or worrying about accidentally deleting or eroding part of, a clip.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:01:05 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:10:44 pm

[Bret Williams] "But what if I want the broll to come with, but not the sfx and graphics? The sfx and graphics might be then end of a section segueing into the next section. But the VO and broll might need to be rearranged together. "

X, too, has Lift, Insert Paste etc. I don't see how the solution would be any different or worse than e.g. in 7, if needed. Or I'm simply not understanding the actual issue. Because, in light of the above, I really don't see one.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:01:17 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:02:53 pm

[Bret Williams] "Gaps. You could also copy, then ripple delete key, then paste insert. In any app it's going to require a bit of surgery unless you just happen to have the perfect situation. "

Well option drag works for me. You could knock me down with a feather! Select the clips. Hold down option key and drag 'em back where you want 'em. Amazing. I never knew that. Everything just jumps out of the way. And on my old iMac the gaps get closed as well.

A lot for the FCP7 shortcuts don't seem to work any longer. Way off topic I know but 'T' no longer toggles shortage the select tracks options. f9, f10, f11 don't work either.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:25:48 pm

[James Ewart] "Well option drag works for me. You could knock me down with a feather! "

Used it constantly, which is why I knew about the multiple clip issue... which drove me NUTS. And also why seeing the X timeline for the first time was a complete epiphany. I literally thought to myself "Why the hell has it not always worked this way i.e. since 1990??"

[James Ewart] "A lot for the FCP7 shortcuts don't seem to work any longer."

Have the same issue with newer OS versions and 7. At least in my case it's because 7 appears to be ignoring that I'm using a german keyboard, so e.g. ⌘Z is in fact ⌘Y etc. No matter what I do with the prefs. Not that I even care anymore. Maybe it's something similar with you and the english keyboard.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:29:49 pm

It works for me with multiple clips also oddly.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:39:55 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:41:43 pm

[James Ewart] "It works for me with multiple clips also oddly."

Then try it as I described. Take 3 clips in V1, put another in V2 above the second one, THEN try option dragging the two middle ones to the beginning of the timeline, i.e. in front of the first.

See what I mean?

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:41:55 pm

Spoiler alert:



turns into



- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 5:07:00 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Mar 2, 2015 at 5:08:45 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Spoiler alert:"

Actually when i do it the clips become duplicated in front of the other shots leaving the original selections in place.

Nevertheless just goes to show. All those years and hours and I never knew about that option drag feature.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 5:54:57 pm

[James Ewart] "Actually when i do it the clips become duplicated in front of the other shots leaving the original selections in place."

Then you're not hitting option AFTER you click and drag, but BEFORE. In which case I don't see how it could have worked before either.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: swapping two shots in FCP7 NEWSFLASH
on Mar 2, 2015 at 6:18:01 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Then you're not hitting option AFTER you click and drag, but BEFORE. In which case I don't see how it could have worked before either.
"


Yes doesn't duplicate in your scenario but in the simpler one I described before whether or not I hit option before of after selecting the clips makes no difference.

of course is doesn't matter anyway but I would be interested to now how Premier handles this scenario.


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Marcus Moore
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 3, 2015 at 7:38:10 am

Creating logical connection points with the primary storyline is something a lot of people neglect, and should solve most problems like this.

You're positing a scenario where sfx are trailing into a scene or shot, but no part of that sound overlaps the previous shot it's logically connected to? I'd love to see an example of this.

(in all honesty, I'm not being snarky)


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Richard Herd
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 2, 2015 at 6:02:02 pm

That was classic!


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Chris Harlan
Re: swapping two shots
on Mar 9, 2015 at 3:55:56 am

IF you happen to have all of the audio attached to that particular shot. If you have several shots sharing audio, then its a completely different story. This thing simply shows what X has been able to do well since day one. If that's the extent of your editing, then swell.


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