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OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?

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Andrew Kimery
OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 21, 2015 at 7:53:04 pm

Oliver,

I posted a Q in the PPro forum about moving a multicam project from FCP 7 into PPro CC2014 and I haven't got any feedback on it. Do you mind taking a look?

https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/963209


Thanks,
Andrew


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Oliver Peters
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 12:10:35 am

I read the post, but unfortunately I haven't tested that scenario. I wish I had an answer for you. I'd do a quick test for you, but I'm in the weeds right now with a project that's a bit overdue. Why not just finish it up in FCP 7?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 3:59:22 am

Thanks for taking a peak, Oliver.

Long story short, it's for a project that I'm just giving advice to. I worked with the production company on a previous doc and we had a lot of stability issues with FCP 7 and editing large amounts XDCAM HD footage natively (about 250 shoot hours, almost all of it 2 camera). They are still relatively early in production on a new doc and most of the footage is in PR Proxy (XDCAM HD camera masters) but some is still native XDCAM HD and causing problems so they are exploring options.

I think they asked me about PPro because they are weighing the option of going to a not-dead NLE before they get past a point of no return. I've talked with them about Avid as well, but PPro's approach to multicam would make prep much faster and easier. X is a non-starter because of lack of a talent pool. If they pushed the issue I'm sure they could get the editors they typically use to get comfortable cutting in X, but finding an AE to create and maintain the workflow would be the bigger challenge. Heck, they've had a bear of a time even finding a FCP 7 AE that's qualified to execute the workflow (it's very similar to a typical reality show workflow, but the vast majority of those shows are on Avid).


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Mark Raudonis
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 6:16:09 am

[Andrew Kimery] "editing large amounts XDCAM HD footage natively (about 250 shoot hours, almost all of it 2 camera)"

Andrew, we used to edit ENORMOUS amounts of XDCAM footage (Like THOUSANDS of hours) with multiple cameras on FCP 7 with NO stability issues. No sure what your problem is, but it is entirely possible to
have a stable workflow with FCP 7.

Of course when FCP-X came out we totally bailed on FCP and moved to Avid... but that's another story for another time and place.



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Tim Wilson
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 6:43:38 am

[Mark Raudonis] "Of course when FCP-X came out we totally bailed on FCP and moved to Avid... but that's another story for another time and place."

The time was 2012, and the place was right here at Creative COW. :-)

"'Real World' Editing: From Avid to FCP and Back Again," by Mark Raudonis




The "another time, another place" discussion might begin with the question: How do you feel about the decision a couple of years later? :-)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 22, 2015 at 8:07:37 am

[Mark Raudonis] "Andrew, we used to edit ENORMOUS amounts of XDCAM footage (Like THOUSANDS of hours) with multiple cameras on FCP 7 with NO stability issues. No sure what your problem is, but it is entirely possible to have a stable workflow with FCP 7."

Out of curiosity did you run into problems with project sizes quickly ballooning up to 100megs or more? The editor I worked with could only have a FCP project with one or two sequences in it (literally, that was that would be in it) and after a few days of editing the FCP project file size would get huge (90-100megs) and we'd get lots of distorted playback, out of sync playback, green screens in the Canvas/Viewer windows, and a lot of crashes until the editor copy and pasted his timeline into a new project. At the time we tried 4 different machines in the office and all of them had similar problems.

Now that I think about it, and this may be a difference that makes a difference, we shot on the Canon F305 cameras which recorded in a 50Mbps, MPEG-2 4:2:2 codec which is the same specs as XDCAM HD but it's not XDCAM HD (even though FCP 7 called it XDCAM HD in the browser). Maybe whatever 'under the hood' codec differences there are between Sony's XDCAM HD and Canon's 50Mbps codec was the source of the problem?


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Mark Raudonis
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 23, 2015 at 4:16:18 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe whatever 'under the hood' codec differences there are between Sony's XDCAM HD and Canon's 50Mbps codec was the source of the problem?
"


Andrew,

It's NOT the resolution that makes project size balloon up, but the number of sequences, edits, FX, etc.

Resolution may affect playback if you have insufficient bandwidth (slow drives), but size of project has more to do with number of bins, multicam, size of sequence etc. By the time FCP 7 arrived, the project size issues were pretty much under control. We would regularly edit 60-90 minute shows referencing thousands of hours of shared storage. We DID work at off-line resolution for bandwidth reasons, but those same shows eventually were conformed, at played out to tape (remember tape?) at full HD resolution (typically proves 422).



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Andrew Kimery
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 23, 2015 at 6:47:51 pm

[Mark Raudonis] "It's NOT the resolution that makes project size balloon up, but the number of sequences, edits, FX, etc."

Right Mark, I never meant to imply that. What I was speculating is if FCP 7 handled Canon's 50Mbps codec poorly compared to Sony's 50Mbps codec. When you use Log and Transfer to import Canon's codec it gets labeled as Sony's codec (XDCAM HD) even though it's not. Just looking at specs Sony's and Canon's codecs are similar (MPEG2, 50mbps, 4:2:2, full raster, etc.,) but I wonder if there are variances in the code of the codec itself that make Canon's codec not an exact clone of Sony's codec. If Canon's codec isn't exactly like Sony's codec through and through, but FCP assumes it is (hence Canon's codec getting labeled as XDCAM HD inside FCP), then any minor variations between codecs could lead to problems since FCP is expecting one thing (Sony's codec) but getting another (Canon's codec).

In the problem I'm recounting, the editor only had his working timeline in the FCP project (all his source footage, bins, etc.,. were organized in separate FCP projects) and after working for a few days on the edit the FCP Project would balloon up to 100 megs. The work around was to create a new project, copy and paste the existing timeline into it (the new project's size would be 1/3 to 1/2 smaller than the previous project). After a few more days of editing the project is up to 90-100 megs again. Wash, rinse and repeat. There was something going on 'under the hood' in FCP causing massive project bloat and instability and the only common thread I found between the various FCP projects and various machines in the office was editing natively using Canon's codec.

On a new documentary they are working on (which currently doesn't have near the amount of footage yet of the previous one) some of the early footage is in Canon's native codec but the vast majority of it is in ProRes Proxy. If the editor is working with the Pro Res Proxy footage everything is smooth sailing, but if he starts putting in the native Canon footage the same problems start happening (like the Canvas/Viewer flashing green, FCP crashing, etc.,) and the more native Canon footage he adds to the edit the worse the problems get. If he takes the native Canon footage out of the edit the problems go away.

Before working with this company whenever I had troubleshot FCP systems with similar problems (instability, the Canvas/Viewer displaying solid green instead of the footage, etc.,) it always came down to corruption on some level (either in the media, the timeline, or the FCP project itself) but there's no way all the projects, all the media and all the timelines across multiple machines were corrupt. The common denominator was the native Canon media which, again, leads me to believe there is a problem with how FCP 7 handles Canon's 50Mbps codec when working with it natively. Also, n all cases the editors worked off of GTECH RAIDs via eSATA and the throughput could easily handle just the two streams of a 50Mbps codec.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 23, 2015 at 12:47:21 pm

Probably the guy you want to talk to about Multicam is Herb Sevush.

https://library.creativecow.net/sevush_herb/Multicam-Premiere-Pro/1


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TImothy Auld
Re: OT: Oliver Peters, can I see you in the PPro forum?
on Feb 24, 2015 at 1:02:33 am

As opposed to someone at Adobe?

Tim


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