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FCP X and Education

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Shane Ross
FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:04:21 pm

Looks like FCP X is taking a hit in education too.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1176567

Remember, students are the filmmakers of tomorrow. They typically use the tools they learned in college, which is another reason FCP took off so fast. With education turning it's back on FCP X...people won't be learning it and taking it into their professional lives.

Well, unless they buy it themselves. But since Avid Media Composer Academic is the exact same price, and a widely used proapp...and what the school might be using... the choice seems clear.

Be compatible with the school (important) and with the pro market (important).

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:24:20 pm

Here at BYU Idaho we are also not sure if we are going to go FCPX. We are currently going to do the wait and see, but we are not going to upgrade anytime soon. I am starting to lean farther and farther away from FCP. Adobe in my mind might become the Next FCP for students here. While there are many features i like about FCPX there are many i don't, and there not the compaints that have been gone over on these forums ad nausem.

will see.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:35:11 pm

Someone else posted that they can't go FCP 7 because their students can't buy copies, even though it's probably a viable thing to learn for the short term. And FCP X really has no place in the pro world, yet, if ever. Plus it's nothing like Avid or FCP classic (7) or Premiere. At least those three share 3 point editing. Premiere is a good option, but I'd say Media Composer is where it's at for students.


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Jean-François Robichaud
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:49:46 pm

[Bret Williams] " And FCP X really has no place in the pro world, yet, if ever. Plus it's nothing like Avid or FCP classic (7) or Premiere. At least those three share 3 point editing. Premiere is a good option, but I'd say Media Composer is where it's at for students."

FCP X does have 3-point editing. It's got a whole list of missing features, but that one is not on the list.


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Andrew Dietz
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:41:00 pm

I went to Ricks back in the day. Speaking as a former student and now professional editor I think you should stick with FCP. You don't need to switch to X right away. Besides, you don't need to teach "professional" editing. FCPX would suffice for even the most advanced of students.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:37:53 pm

a lot has changed since we were Ricks :) that being said yes we will be holding off and waiting. we are not going to make any rash desision and a lot of this is knee jerk reactions. but i have to be mindful of what we teach students. i have to completely disagree with your we don't have to teach "professional" editing. while we are not a film school we still are in the buisness of turning out professionals in all of the schools. so yes we need to teach what will get them jobs and careers.

also in its current state FCPX doesn't intagrate into our currernt infastructure at all. and if it never does then we have to look to what will.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Andrew Dietz
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:48:14 pm

I forgot it's a 4 year school now. So you can delve deeper into the craft. If you want to prepare students for the world of professional editing you'd be better off teaching them Avid. The fact is, most students will not be able to get a job out of college working on an Avid. FCPX doesn't work in my companies current infrastructure either since SAN isn't supported, but I suspect that will eventually change. No reason to jump ship right away. FCP7 will still be widely in use for another 2-3 years I suspect. I have not found any places I've ever worked that use Premiere.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:29:09 pm

I'd urge everyone to go download the Avid Media Composer 30 day trial and go through the tutorials. I'm REALLY wishing I'd taken them up on their $995 deal. As someone that edits at home and freelance, I have to assume that in the next year Media Composer will regain it's status as the norm even here in the corporate world. Most of the places here were Avid houses 10 years ago when I was primarily freelance. And if Avid supports AJA, it's literally a $2300 expense for those FCP places that have AJA boxes, and the Matrox folks (like myself) are already good to go.

I have Premiere on my system, and with it's basic FCP 7 compatibility it may serve me well here at my place, but I mess with it every year and it just feels clunky to me. I've demoed it, open FCP projects with it, done tutorials, etc. but something always seems wonky. Frames are dropped, or a setting is screwy, or it doesn't like ProRes, etc. Avid really has it all down with their AMA file linking and then consolidation and media management overall. The thing is solid. I opened up the demo install, linked a folder of files via the AMA thing, and they all came in instantly. From DV to ProRes to H264. And they just played no worries.

I just don't seem Premiere becoming the winner here. I can't really put my finger on why, but they've never been able to take market from Avid, and they quickly lost to Apple when they came along. Maybe they try to hard?


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Tony Brittan
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:03:49 pm

If you still want the $995 deal, it's still out there! Promise I don't work for them but videoguys has it for $975! You still have to do the cross grade thing and put in your serial from FCP to be eligible but I saw it today. I did it through Avid's site before the 17th only because I saw it as an incredible deal (it's the bundle / boxed suite) as Sonicfire Pro AND Sorenson 6 would cat that much alone!

I'm still fully involved with FCP 7 because it's been all I know (well) for around 10 years and my business revolves around it. I do own PP, because I own Production Premium for AE and PD, but I've never used it. I'll be learning it now. I'm also learning Avid! The more tools the better. Will I buy FCP X and learn it? Uh...YEA! Each tool will serve it's purpose and I'm hoping FCP X will get better.

Just my 2 cents


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:23:49 pm

I worked in various roles at a film school which decided to require students to purchase final cut pro in order to learn feature film post production.

The school required computer and software purchase, so over 10 years it was on the order of 700 to 800 purchases. Even taking a low figure of $2000 per, that's $1.4 million in revenue.

Now the only choice is Avid, and why not PC laptops to save the kids some money?

I evangelized ever since editing the first feature finished to film in 1999 on FCP 1 and Film Logic. I have nothing against Avid, but the interface has sacrificed elegance for the ability to operate nearly identically in a PC or Mac OS.

FCP has definitely lost the higher education market to Avid if feature film editing and post production are the curriculum.



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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:27:32 pm

[Steven Gonzales] "FCP has definitely lost the higher education market to Avid if feature film editing and post production are the curriculum."

I feel like a broken record here, but this is basically an insane thing to say a little over a week after FCP X's release.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:34:33 pm

Insane sounds a little extreme, but I need to:

import a flex file
export a cut list

And a lot of other exchanges. If you can tell me how to do those two simple things, then you can continue questioning my sanity.



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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:45:35 pm

[Steven Gonzales] "Insane sounds a little extreme"

"Insane" sounds about right for making sweeping long-term predictions of success or failure in specific markets a week after release. People have completely lost all sense of perspective here.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:47:00 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I feel like a broken record here, but this is basically an insane thing to say a little over a week after FCP X's release."

Why insane? We can see instantly that the app doesn't do what many professionals require. Forget the missing features that apparently only a few percent use...forget that multicam is coming (they say)...the interface doesn't do what we need. Tracks are important, magnetic timeline farks things up, no dupe detection, no notice that you are out of sync. One Viewer...fine. But the skimmer is far from precise. The high end pro market, and corporate market, see the writing on the wall. This app doesn't do what we need in order to get things done. Schools see this too...so they won't go there.

It doesn't matter if we look at this app for a month...the tools aren't there. Next year...we'll see if they listened to us and how sales went. But it is VERY clear that they are not aiming at the professional market. and schools teach future professionals.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:51:53 pm

Even just considering this thread's topic, these kids are coming in August to learn feature editing, and they cannot learn that with FCP X.

The "let's give Apple more time" argument is insufficient to refute the statement that this software cannot be used to teach the post production process for features shot and/or finished on film.



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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:56:35 pm

[Shane Ross] "Why insane? We can see instantly that the app doesn't do what many professionals require."

And you can also see that it never will?

[Shane Ross] "the interface doesn't do what we need. Tracks are important, magnetic timeline farks things up, no dupe detection, no notice that you are out of sync. One Viewer...fine. But the skimmer is far from precise. The high end pro market, and corporate market, see the writing on the wall. This app doesn't do what we need in order to get things done. Schools see this too...so they won't go there."

In order:

I understand all the things that tracks presently used for. I don't see that tracks are necessarily the only solution to that set of problems.

The magnetic timeline is badly misunderstood, largely as a consequence of people approaching it with a track-oriented mindset.

It's much harder to throw clips out of sync in the first place with the new UI, and anyway sync indications and dupe detection are minor missing features, not major unfixable architectural flaws.

The skimmer is not the only way to select footage. JKL and the keyboard commands for setting in and out points still work just fine. And personally, I've found the skipper, with the browser in filmstrip mode, to be much more efficient for scanning lots of footage than any other interface I've used.

This is all exactly like people writing off the iPhone in the enterprise market in 2007 because it didn't have a hardware keyboard, Exchange support, or centralized management features.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:04:34 pm

@ Chris - you seem like a level headed, clear minded person who is diligently taking the time to try and right the ship on every wrong turn people are taking about FCPx.

I applaud you for that.

...but for the sake of your own sanity, stop wasting your time explaining the features (or lack of the "lack of" features..) and stick with the FCPX Techniques forum. Your wisdom is much more appreciated there...

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:06:46 pm

I just want to cut this 35MM negative correctly, and get these Sound Devices .WAV sound dailies conformed to full resolution 24 bit at the post sound house.

Got any advice on getting that done with the only FCP version on the market?

I'd love to wait for the new paradigm to align itself, but we have a release date to meet.



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Gary Pollard
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:37:30 pm

And you were planning to use a brand new piece of software to do it?


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 10:38:51 pm

I've done these tasks with every other version of FCP right after that version came out.



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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:13:07 pm

[Chris Kenny] "And you can also see that it never will?"

I do. This new version shows that they didn't get any input from professional editors. Or if they did, they ignored it completely. They set loose a guy who designed iMovie and said "hey, make this more robust and with more features so we can sell it as a higher end "pro app."" And he did. But he left out EVERYTHING that professionals need in order to do their job. Including upgrade older projects. The list of things missing is long. And the promise to restore a couple falls way short.

[Chris Kenny] "I understand all the things that tracks presently used for. I don't see that tracks are necessarily the only solution to that set of problems."

You obviously don't deliver shows for broadcast...nor do you cut promos. We need split track audio, with all the elements separate. Both to deliver, and to take in. And in order to do that, I need to keep my tracks separate...VO on 1 and 2, sound on tape on 3-8, sound effects on 9-12, music on 13-16. And I need the ability to export files, or to tape, all those separate tracks. Currently I cannot do that. And the magnetic timeline pushing things down as to not chop off the audio...throws everything out of what. Professionals need finesse...and full control of everyting. FCP X makes wrong assumptions about what we are doing. Wrong on many levels.

[Chris Kenny] "The magnetic timeline is badly misunderstood, largely as a consequence of people approaching it with a track-oriented mindset."

Because we are required to in order to deliver the video to the client with the proper specifications. Avid does this, Premiere does this, FCP 7 does this, Edius does this. It is a professional option that was removed, and without remorse it seems.

[Chris Kenny] "It's much harder to throw clips out of sync in the first place with the new UI, and anyway sync indications and dupe detection are minor missing features, not major unfixable architectural flaws."

But you can unlock audio from video. And when you do, if you move out of sync, there is no indication that you have...much less by how much. When I make adjustments to video and audio, I do it separately primarily. L cuts, J cuts. I turn off the LINKED option...and when I need it, I use a key modifier to adjust both. The new methodolgy is wrong for my needs. Wrong for many needs. Which is why the pro market is in such an uproar over this. Features were changed to non-pro...not left out to come back later...changed. Because the designer has zero clue about what professionals need.

[Chris Kenny] "This is all exactly like people writing off the iPhone in the enterprise market in 2007 because it didn't have a hardware keyboard, Exchange support, or centralized management features."

But it had a keyboard. Not a funky weird one where the keys were in all different places. And it didn't leave out the texting option, the ability to make a call AND surf the web at the same time. It didn't take out google maps because "we'll let third party people give you a map." It wasn't a toy phone. FCP X is a toy app. The VAST majority of professionals see this. You are in the minority.

Look for blogs that praise FCP X...news articles (well, besides the David Pogue one...he's not a professional editor). I am hard pressed to find people that like it. All the blogs I read are against it. Only a handful of people like it...a vast majority. People are slamming it on the app store...getting refunds. This is a disaster of major proportions. Only NEW COKE was worse. Same reason...the formula was changed. Trying to improve something by completely changing it.

At the LAFCPUG meeting...sold out crowd of 325 people. When polled who bought it already...less than 30 people raised their hands. When asked who would buy it...4 people.

Oops.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:19:35 pm

Uggh. Can we stop with the "New Coke" references? And the Luddite tag? And the re-posting of Conan's video.

I get it. You hate it. Everyone who is a pro flippin hates it. My grandmother hates. Well, I dunno about that, but she probably does.

I'm going to go edit something...

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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John Chay
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:19:31 pm

It sounds like it would be a nightmare to try and time out an hour long show.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:25:34 pm

There's a lot of impolite dismissal of opinion on this board.

When it hits Shane Ross, I get ruffled.

He's provided balanced and invaluable info on competitive software product, and I've benefited from his advice on each.

So I'll throw one thing into the fray:

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."
— Douglas Adams



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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:29:15 pm

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"


and what on Earth is "impolite dismissal" and how was I guilty of it. Is it anything like feigned moral outrage?

He's Nth person to say "New Coke" ...we are creative people, we can do better.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:39:27 pm

[Adam McCune] "He's Nth person to say "New Coke" ...we are creative people, we can do better."

If the analogy fits... go with it. Coke had a formula that worked. Then the tried to change it...and EVERYONE ran out to stock up on old Coke. Only a few people liked the new Coke. The departure was too radical.

Similar thing here.

FCP X changed everything, and took out all that we loved about FCP. ANd I mean EVERYTHING. So now people are scrambling to buy FCP 7 while they can, stockpile. And I hope that Apple sees the light and releases FCP Classic...then gradually go back to making professional software. Keep FCP X...but call it what it is...FCE X.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:45:27 pm

Except that you still have a whole warehouse of the "old Coke" at your disposal...at least for the foreseeable future.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:52:05 pm

[Adam McCune] "Except that you still have a whole warehouse of the "old Coke" at your disposal...at least for the foreseeable future."

Nope. Apple pulled FCS 3 off the shelves...recalled all of them...the day FCP X was released. You'll be lucky to find a used copy on ebay. Or someone who has a new one might sell it at a premium.

Trust me, the uproar would be MUCH LESS if FCP 7 was still available for sale.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Chay
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:53:05 pm

I think they don't care about the uproar. They know the pros will move on and the critics will die off.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:54:40 pm

I understand that it was pulled. I mean YOU have a copy, your own personal warehouse...

That would be step one in Apple making this right (especially in the instance you pointed out to start this thread) is to make FCP7 available for sale again. I didn't even think of the kids starting school in the fall, unable to purchase a copy of the software they will learn? How messed up is that?

Apple is going to continue to support 7, so let's see if they offer it up for sale again.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:36:33 pm

Sorry. I just am one of the people that fought long and hard for this town (Los Angeles) to accept FCP as a viable option for editing broadcast productions. YEARS of proving what FCP can do..standing up to the critics and Avid-editors who wanted to ridicule and point and laugh. And now they all say "see, I told you so!" Or the mad producers who are irked that I steered them towards a product that has no upgrade path, and is EOL. They can use it for a few more years, but as technology advances, they need to look elsewhere.

Good thing Avid will support AJA and BMD and Matrox hardware in the future. Otherwise they'd REALLY be hosed.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Adam McCune
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:39:36 pm

I totally understand the anger, especially from someone who has invested time (and money) into an entire platform.

I have a lot less at stake. I've got a copy, it's working alongside FCP7 and for my purposes, it works. 99% of the other users, I'm seeing that is not the case.

...this is a good reminder for me as well. I think I'm going to hop off this forum and on to the techniques forum. No use pissing off a bunch of people that are pros that I could learn from.

I think the real interesting thing is to see what Avid and Adobe do in response. That, perhaps, is the only way to get Apple to change it up.

Writer/Radio host/Community Media Advocate


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Paul Dickin
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:39:29 pm

[Shane Ross] "...the magnetic timeline pushing things down..."
Hi
Hindsight will show that you are floundering in misunderstanding.
Chris has explained repeatedly there is no 'up' or 'down'. Its all an interface metaphor, and perfectly workable in such a clip-connection manner once understood.

YOU may need 'tracks' to work, but your AAF/OMF output software and 8-track audio SDI connectivity doesn't.
What's needed is metadata to identify which timeline asset belongs to which output channel. An interface which allows that to be allocated doesn't inherently need 'tracks'.

It needs an editor who understands how to drive the interface.
Audio metadata tagging will come 'later this summer' say Apple.

Other things needed may never happen, But that's not a GUI fault.




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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:57:38 pm

I agree: you need someone who knows how to drive the interface.

However, the interface is not the individual software application and its GUI. The interface is the workflow between real world assets and the application chain.

This is the focus FCP X doesn't take. For metadata to be useful, it has to pass easily through the chain of applications.

I have rarely had a project that was contained in one application. If I shot DSLR with built in sound and output to web, then my interface IS the one app.

But this model, and its "cloud" based assets which operate transparently (whether the cloud is local or remote) does not work for the realities of the application chain that we must navigate for the foreseable future.

For new workflow chains to come, where perhaps the interface expert also understands and has code tools for the software development kit, I'm sure there will be great workflows created.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:11:58 pm

Production sound comes to me in BWF-poly files with a track for each character, a boom, an M+S pair and a production mix. I sync them to the picture takes and go on cutting the scenes. The production mix track is usually good enough so I just mute all other tracks. But I don't delete them becuse when picture is locked I have to export each 2000 ft reel with all the sound. Almost every cut in there is either J- or L-cut so it is all arranged in the checkerboard fashion. There is also some M&E but this doesn't complicate matters. So how exactly do I tag my production sound and how long would it take me? What if the budget is shifted from sound editorial to picture editorial and I need to give the sound editor more sophisticated stems?


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:21:44 pm

"YOU may need 'tracks' to work, but your AAF/OMF output software and 8-track audio SDI connectivity doesn't. What's needed is metadata to identify which timeline asset belongs to which output channel. An interface which allows that to be allocated doesn't inherently need 'tracks'.
It needs an editor who understands how to drive the interface."


Bu what's in it for me?

Audio tracks are an extremely useful visual organizer as well as an efficient way to create a workflow that will naturally work with others. Why should I have to re-learn a universally excepted interface? I'm asking that seriously - make the case. Show me the productivity gains in tagging audio with metadata and how that will make my life MUCH easier - easier is not enough, it needs to be an order of magnitude easier to be worth the trouble.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Michael Hancock
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:32:56 pm

[Paul Dickin] "What's needed is metadata to identify which timeline asset belongs to which output channel. An interface which allows that to be allocated doesn't inherently need 'tracks'."

I don't understand how would this work. Do you tag every sound effect as SFX, edit and let them drop anywhere in the timeline, but tell the system to output all clips tagged as SFX to Track 05? Do you tag dialogue at DIALOGUE and export it to track 01? MUSIC tags go to tracks 3/4?

Honest question. I simply don't see how this is more efficient than tracks - Dialogue on 1/2, music 3/4, SFX 5/6/7/8, etc...

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:43:16 pm

By the way, USC isn't considering FCP X either. No compelling reason to upgrade.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:47:57 pm

[Shane Ross] "This new version shows that they didn't get any input from professional editors. "

No, it does not. It shows that they decided to ship the product when it was useful to a substantial number of people (including some professional editors) rather than waiting to implement features required only by certain high-end workflows.

[Shane Ross] "They set loose a guy who designed iMovie"

And the first three versions of Premiere, and the original Final Cut Pro. While it's possible he's completely lost it this time around, and an Internet mob knows better, it's not exactly a foregone conclusion.

[Shane Ross] "You obviously don't deliver shows for broadcast...nor do you cut promos. We need split track audio, with all the elements separate. Both to deliver, and to take in. And in order to do that, I need to keep my tracks separate...VO on 1 and 2, sound on tape on 3-8, sound effects on 9-12, music on 13-16."

We do deliver material for broadcast. I am entirely aware of this practice. I can also, however, imagine ways of providing this ability without having to rigidly structure audio tracks in the NLE. And I imagine Apple can as well.

[Shane Ross] "But you can unlock audio from video. And when you do, if you move out of sync, there is no indication that you have...much less by how much. When I make adjustments to video and audio, I do it separately primarily. L cuts, J cuts. I turn off the LINKED option...and when I need it, I use a key modifier to adjust both. The new methodolgy is wrong for my needs."

I don't really understand why. In FCP X you can trivially make L cuts and J cuts without unlinking audio, so it can be done with no danger of anything slipping out of sync, and thus less of a requirement for sync indicators.

[Shane Ross] "But it had a keyboard. Not a funky weird one where the keys were in all different places. And it didn't leave out the texting option, the ability to make a call AND surf the web at the same time. It didn't take out google maps because "we'll let third party people give you a map." It wasn't a toy phone."

Well, this goes pretty directly to my "people won't remember this in a couple of years" argument in the other thread....

The first iPhone actually couldn't do data and voice at the same time. It had mapping, but no GPS, and in the first release of iOS not even tower triangulation. And while it had SMS, it didn't have MMS. It also lacked support for third-party apps, tethering, and a bunch of other features widely considered by be 'standard'.

This idea that Apple might launch a product with a minimal feature set and add features later is not some wild-eyed fanboy optimism. It's a consistent pattern that Apple has followed.

[Shane Ross] "Trying to improve something by completely changing it."

It has worked for Apple before. The more I use the new timeline, the more I realize just how carefully considered these new behaviors are. While some people will hate it forever, I think in the long run the initial overwhelmingly negative reaction to the magnetic timeline is going to be seen as knee-jerk. Assuming anyone remembers it happened.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John Chay
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:55:10 pm

[Chris Kenny] "We do deliver material for broadcast. I am entirely aware of this practice. I can also, however, imagine ways of providing this ability without having to rigidly structure audio tracks in the NLE. And I imagine Apple can as well"

Can you just admit that this is a huge flaw right now instead of "I imagine Apple can as well?" Why are audio tracks all of a sudden "rigid"? It works. Has been working nicely for many years. If you can't add anything constructive don't reply with nonsense. Please.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:07:53 pm

[John Chay] "Can you just admit that this is a huge flaw right now instead of "I imagine Apple can as well?""

In point of fact, we've already seen a glimpse of Apple's solution: tag clip audio with metadata.

[John Chay] "Why are audio tracks all of a sudden "rigid"?"

Audio tracks aren't rigid, but having to place specific things on specific tracks is. One example: let's say effects are supposed to be delivered on tracks 5-6, and I'm creating a soundscape that requires me to overlay three effects. Oops. In practice the solution to this problem is that audio gets edited using a more freeform approach (typically not in the NLE) and then mixed down to meet these deliverables requirements. With metadata, you can put anything anywhere, and still have it go where it needs to go when you output.

Mind you, Apple's first implementation of this, coming this summer, might not get everything right. But I think the approach is fundamentally sound (no pun intended).

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Steven Gonzales
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:12:59 pm

"I can also, however, imagine ways of providing this ability without having to rigidly structure audio tracks in the NLE. And I imagine Apple can as well."

I think you've helped me gain clarity. The "creative thinking" approach could be better served by giving the user choices to use tracks or not to use tracks.

The software provider can think of creative innovations in the GUI of every sort, and let the user configure the environment to suit their needs.

The problems begin when the software provider reserves all interface decisions for themselves, and rules out alternatve ways of working.

Way back when, Lightworks allowed clips to just exist in the interface, and not necessarily be in a bin. Avid won out, and everything needed to be connected to a bin. In Lightworks you could put up as many viewers as you needed, in Avid you only got two. In fact, the smart folder way is really a throwback to the thinking in Lightworks with their NoteCard database GUI.

No one wants to stifle creativity. Creativity by a software designer is welcomed. Add all the features you want, just let me customized my favorite way of working with your creative GUI ideas. When the software limits the users to one way of working, then the software designer has not been as creative in their thinking as they could have been.

If the backend metadata and engine are the key, then why can't that information be interacted with by the user in a myriad of ways?



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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:39:34 pm

Steven -

"If the backend metadata and engine are the key, then why can't that information be interacted with by the user in a myriad of ways?"


Amen.

I have been blathering on about this idea for days but you have articulated it perfectly.

Thank you.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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MIke Guidotti
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:25:45 pm

I liked new coke but not the same feelings for FCX.


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MIke Guidotti
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:23:46 pm

[Chris Kenny] "And you can also see that it never will?"

That's irrelevant to his post which you must not understand. It is June - his classes begin in August that is two months from now. If apple adds all that stuff to FCX today he would still only have two months to fully re-integrate his school's studios (and probably has to put it out through a two-envelope bid process, etc). He can't teach a class in August on something THAT DOES NOT EXIST YET. He can't say "OK kids today we are going to learn how to use a program Apple might maybe come out with in two years."

Teaching FCS3/FCP 7 is not an option because his students can not buy it for use on their own, and it is 4 years out of date compared to Avid/Premiere.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:24:34 pm

Chris, when the first person to cut a 35 mm feature in FCP 1 tells you something's wrong with FCPX and the second guy tells you the same it is not because they are afraid of anything new. There should be some other reasons.


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Chris Jacek
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:47:01 pm

[Chris Kenny] "[Steven Gonzales] "FCP has definitely lost the higher education market to Avid if feature film editing and post production are the curriculum."

I feel like a broken record here, but this is basically an insane thing to say a little over a week after FCP X's release.
"


This is NOT insane at all. Please take a moment to step back and look at what Apple has done from a licensing standpoint. They have STOPPED offering an educational discount for Final Cut Pro. You do not need to wait for a dot-release to get the message. The fact that Apple did not already have educational pricing in place ON ITS RELEASE is proof to me that they are not committed to the educational market. They fired this shot on DAY ONE. Even if they offer volume and educational pricing in the future, it will be too late for most. Decisions are being made on a daily basis.

I have much more to say on this, but have already elaborated on a separate topic in this forum (which incidentally is the first Google result when you enter "FCPX educational pricing").

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/6661

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:51:52 pm

[Chris Jacek] "The fact that Apple did not already have educational pricing in place ON ITS RELEASE is proof to me that they are not committed to the educational market."

These are app store teething issues that people are reading far too much into.

[Chris Jacek] "Even if they offer volume and educational pricing in the future, it will be too late for most. Decisions are being made on a daily basis. "

Really? If it takes Apple a few weeks to work out education pricing, "most" will have already gone elsewhere?

People are seriously exaggerating the time sensitivity of all of this. Educational institutions in particular often run years behind on updates. It's possible some might jump ship depending on their internal schedules and Apple's timing, but the idea of some kind of mass exodus occurring because of a matter of weeks is, yes, insane.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris Jacek
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:38:01 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Really? If it takes Apple a few weeks to work out education pricing, "most" will have already gone elsewhere?"

YES!

We are in the middle of budgeting season for schools. Any NORMAL software title provides unbroken support of their renewable licenses.

Think about it this way. Every year, the school gets a bill for its ongoing software license. It becomes part of their budgeting process. They set that money aside, knowing that they will always be current on the software. So what happens to the school who's cycle ended in late June of this year? Instead of getting their annual renewal bill, they get an email telling them that their licensed software has been discontinued (I have one of these emails, and would be happy to post it here if anyone is interested). They are also told that the new version of their software, which their license had guaranteed they'd be able to get for free, will now cost them FULL RETAIL PRICE! Even at FCP's new lower price point, that same school will be paying $400 from this year's budget, for something that would have cost them less than $100 two weeks ago.

Furthermore, there is no mechanism in place for them start a new license, so they might have to pay full retail price again when the next version is released. So you say this is probably temporary, and Apple will get it straightened out. Maybe it will get fixed in 2 weeks or two months, but that school decision-maker has to make a decisions about the budget NOW. And Apple is saying NOTHING about their plans, so we don't even know if there is anything worth waiting for. What do you think that decision-maker is going to do? IF if they could increase their budget at this late state, will they Shell out 4 times their budgeted cost, with no guarantee that it won't happen again next year?

They might look at Adobe. They might even already have the Production Premium license, as many do who use After Effects. Adobe is well known for their aggressive institutional pricing for education. Or they look at Avid. For the same $299 they would spend on FCPX, they can get a $2500 software editing package that they KNOW is a professional product. They also know that they get free updates for 4 YEARS, and that they can run the software on Mac or PC (both are included in the box, and you can switch your platform at no additional cost) in case they want to change platforms in the future.

Think about the situation in terms of lost opportunity time. Let's say Apple DOES fix everything with their licensing, and reinstitute a similar mechanism in fairly short order, like 3 weeks from now. That means there is a 5 week period, or 10% of a calendar year, that every single renewable license is not being renewed, and decision makers are facing the dilemma stated above. That's a really fast way to lose 10% of your market (probably more, since academic licenses are far more likely to expire at this time of year than any other). And this doesn't even account for the word of mouth that travels rapidly in the world of academics. And what happens if they take 3 months? Six months? A year? Is that unrealistic? Who bleepin' knows? Because Apple is mum on the topic. This shows poor planning, and whether intentional or it, it proves negligence at best, and blatant disregard at worst.

The first rule of a new product implementation should be the same as choosing a VP running mate in an election...DO NO HARM! Apple just picked Joe Liebermann and Sarah Palin.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:46:42 pm

[Chris Jacek] "We are in the middle of budgeting season for schools."

And every school in the country will switch rather than just not doing anything this year, even the ones that had no particular plan to upgrade editing software any time soon?

I'm sorry, but people are blowing all of these sorts of issues entirely out of proportion. Will Apple lose some sales, as a consequence of the time it takes them to work through volume/education licensing issues? Yes. Will it be more than a drop in the bucket, in the long run? Almost certainly not.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Chris Jacek
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:20:25 pm

[Chris Kenny] "And every school in the country will switch rather than just not doing anything this year, even the ones that had no particular plan to upgrade editing software any time soon?

I'm sorry, but people are blowing all of these sorts of issues entirely out of proportion. Will Apple lose some sales, as a consequence of the time it takes them to work through volume/education licensing issues? Yes. Will it be more than a drop in the bucket, in the long run? Almost certainly not."


I don't think you are understanding the situation well enough from an implementation standpoint. It's not just a case of waiting. The existing licenses are being cancelled at their expiration date, with no option for renewal. That means that the tech support that goes with those licenses is also being cancelled, which is VERY important to many institutions. Do you really think "wait and see" is an option in that case? It seems like a pretty cavalier attitude if you ask me.

Apple is abandoning a promise that they made to continue offering an ongoing renewable license. And they did it without warning. I literally was sold this license and promise on a Monday, and it was discontinued on Tuesday, with no contingency plan. Reliability is a very important quality in a vendor, and Apple has lost a great deal of credibility in this area.

Aside from the pragmatic aspects that I mentioned, this sends a strong message about the changing corporate culture of Apple. Their are showing themselves to have weak ethics, if only in this very small segment of their operation. Word spreads quickly.

I have already spoken to colleagues at several institutions, and their feelings are the same. One even got a reply to their angry email to Steve Jobs, which basically said, give it a chance, and just keep using it. That's a fine approach IF you have not corporately forced it to be the only option. By killing the proven application, and its associated support, Apple is forcing the choice.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Chris Kenny
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:28:12 pm

[Chris Jacek] "I don't think you are understanding the situation well enough from an implementation standpoint. It's not just a case of waiting. The existing licenses are being cancelled at their expiration date, with no option for renewal. That means that the tech support that goes with those licenses is also being cancelled, which is VERY important to many institutions. Do you really think "wait and see" is an option in that case? It seems like a pretty cavalier attitude if you ask me."

I used to be involved with technology procurement at a public university in New York, and nothing moves as quickly as you're implying here. The idea that some significant fraction of schools are going to be on Premiere Pro come late August if Apple takes a few weeks to deal with the educational licensing situation is just not credible, based on my experience, and for all you know the situation will be resolved by Monday.

This is just another variation of the some old apocalyptic rhetoric. People have lost perspective.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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MIke Guidotti
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:36:07 am

It's true. Most schools and companies won't let you put vaporware in your budget proposal.


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MIke Guidotti
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:38:03 pm

Most schools have shared edit bays which require multiple user logins as well as SAN storage. That basically rules iMovie X out. oh, sorry FCP X.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:56:54 pm

[MIke Guidotti] "Most schools have shared edit bays which require multiple user logins as well as SAN storage. That basically rules iMovie X out. oh, sorry FCP X."

This is completely my point. this is probably why NYU doesn't want to try and support FCPX the infastucture isn't there. and the app doesn't support key issues. and i'm not talking to major compaints we are hearing ad nausum. (EDL, Multi cam) instead of have 100s of students coming in with problems that they can't address yet. its better to say hold off and wait.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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MIke Guidotti
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:12:57 pm

Both Avid and Adobe will offer your students great prices on their software, and they are both enterprise-friendly.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:13:48 pm

OK... I think I'll just wait to see what the porn industry does. If they adopt it or move on. Because we all know how much weight they carry in this biz...

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ben Holmes
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:32:05 pm

[MIke Guidotti] "Most schools have shared edit bays which require multiple user logins as well as SAN storage. That basically rules iMovie X out. oh, sorry FCP X.
"


Whilst I'm a little bored of saying this here (but everyone is forgiven for not seeing useful information in this godawful mess of noise) FCPX can easily be made to be seen on a SAN - my own vendor made it work in a day.

Do people really think these issues with WEEK OLD SOFTWARE are forever problems? Like others here, I look forward to revisiting some of these posts in a year's time.

Everything in X is new. It will take time to reintegrate EVERYTHING with it. It will take time to learn how to use it.

Like Shane, I'm pissed off Apple junked the goodwill I have with my customers - I differ in believing it's forever at this point. Value always wins - productivity always wins. FCPX could give us both.

If it doesn't, I'll be a switcher too - but not after a week.

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Andrew Richards
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:53:39 pm

[MIke Guidotti] "Most schools have shared edit bays which require multiple user logins as well as SAN storage. That basically rules iMovie X out. oh, sorry FCP X."

How is FCPX incompatible with either of those?

FCPX won't let you put Events or Projects on a SAN (yet) since there'd be data collisions from multiple users hitting the same location, but you can edit from SAN-hosted media. Just uncheck the box that copies media to the Event.

And multiple user accounts? You're going to have to explain why you think those are incompatible with FCPX...

Best,
Andy Richards

VP of Product Development
Keeper Technology


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Jim Townley
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 1:50:07 am

Here is my concern as an educator. I will not move to a new version of any software for at least 6 to 7 months. (probably longer) Let them get all the bugs worked out before committing. I will continue to teach with FCP 7. However, most of my students will go out and buy the software we are teaching. They will not find FCP 7 readily, certainly not from Apple. I just looked. It is not on their site. So they will buy FCP X. Hey it’s Final Cut Pro, isn’t it? It is not compatible with FCP 7. They cannot take their projects home to work on them. They cannot bring projects into the lab that they started at home.

I will send out an email to my students telling them not to buy FCP X when our semester starts in August. $299 is still a lot of money to a student if they cannot use it in class. Since most students have trouble reading instructions and emails, I hope I can get the word out. If Apple gets their act together so I can use the FCP 7 lesson plans already in place by spring semester, I might consider it. I cannot move to any new software now anyway since the fiscal year starts tomorrow, July 1st. And Apple has no educational pricing yet. How do I sell that to the school? Until then, maybe I will now spend more time teaching story telling with sequences using matching and overlapping action.

Jim Townley
Television Production
Chattahoochee Technical College
Marietta, GA


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 2:17:51 am

[Jim Townley] "Here is my concern as an educator. I will not move to a new version of any software for at least 6 to 7 months. (probably longer) Let them get all the bugs worked out before committing. I will continue to teach with FCP 7."

Jim,

The problem you are facing as an educator is no different that the problem we professionals face. You have students and have no idea how to serve them in the future; we have the same issues, only with clients and TV stations and collaborators of all types.

What do we do going forward? How do we insure that we are going forward? What is the right solution? Is there a solution?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jim Townley
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 2:35:00 am

David,

I have been in the business for almost 40 years. I was with NBC News for 17 years and in Post Houses for another 15. I have worked with clients. I know your concerns very well.

In the past 10 years as an instructor, I am teaching for the students who will go into the Post or TV field. Only time will tell what the solution will be.

Jim Townley
Television Production
Chattahoochee Technical College
Marietta, GA


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Chris Jacek
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 3:29:56 am

It's very frustrating to hear so many people say that "a few weeks is no big deal" or "the software is will evolve." It's not about the cockadoodie software!

This is about how Apple has willingly put educators into an uncertain situation. This is not a case of getting their sea legs with a new product. This is a case of a company that flippantly decided to instantly gut their existing licensing system with ZERO lead time, and offer NOTHING in the way of replacement, and NO INFORMATION regarding if and when they ever will. These is not the actions of a responsible company.

I challenge all the people who accuse us of "knee-jerk" reactions to provide one example of any other company that has done this. Or should I say, provide an example of another company that has done this without suffering dramatically.

You know what? If someone hits you on the knee with a hammer, jerking IS the most appropriate reaction.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Owen Wexler
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 3:48:33 am

The first thing I thought of after hearing about the lack of volume licensing and the new barriers to project portability (moving projects from one computer to another) was "how on Earth is a school supposed to use this program?" When I was in school I don't think I ever worked on a project on the same workstation twice, and they definitely used volume licensing.

Cinematographer - Editor - Motion Graphics Artist - Colorist

http://www.owenbwexler.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 4:06:14 am

[Chris Jacek] "I challenge all the people who accuse us of "knee-jerk" reactions to provide one example of any other company that has done this. Or should I say, provide an example of another company that has done this without suffering dramatically."

Well Chris, although I am simpatico with your premise and the feelings you've expressed, I have to tell you, Discreet (now Autodesk) did the same thing just about 7.5 years ago when they "end of lifed" their excellent NLE they called Edit*. That ruined many well-established businesses in the blink an eye, exactly like Apple is doing now.

Though a consortium was formed to acquire the code, so development of the product could be continued, the deal was nixed without explanation. And, Autodesk essentially just told everyone to get lost. They even issued a cease and desist letter to Ebay, forcing them to stop allowing Edit* users to sell their software licenses online.

Though the incident had dire consequences for many editors and many small businesses, it wasn't even a blip on Autodesk's radar.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Chris Jacek
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 11:52:46 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Though the incident had dire consequences for many editors and many small businesses, it wasn't even a blip on Autodesk's radar.
"


That is a good example. And when I think about my question, I also realize that Apple will certainly not feel dire circumstances overall. Much like Autodesk, I doubt that it will be a blip in Apple's radar. I do, however, expect that it could significantly hurt Apple's educational market.

I guess the real question is whether Apple cares.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Bill Dawson
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 4:32:26 am

>Is there a solution?

Yes, buy Avid. We now find ourselves teaching a dead product.
Does FCP 7 still work? Yes, but our students will graduate a year
or two from now. Will FCPX be "fixed" and ready for professional
use at that time? I have no idea. However, I do know that Avid is
ready now and it's a safe bet it will be ready a year from now.

School budgets being what they are (use it or lose it) and with the
budget year clock ticking, we had to make a decision...NOW.

We bought 24 copies of Avid.

Bill


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Jim Townley
Re: FCP X and Education
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:56:52 pm

Go to the Apple Education/mac page and you can scroll down and see the pro applications section where they tout students editing like pros. And the picture is still Final Cut Studio and the blurb below for FCS shows the Old box. But press the link and you go to FCP X.



Jim Townley
Television Production
Chattahoochee Technical College
Marietta, GA


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