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Scott Witthaus
Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 27, 2015 at 5:47:27 pm

From our friends at Ripple Training:







Nice overview.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Richard Herd
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 27, 2015 at 8:27:43 pm

But I need to see the tail and the head.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 27, 2015 at 8:49:56 pm

I can see that.

When I need to see both sides I am usually not in the precision trim mode and simply dragging back and forth looking at the dual display. For me, having the head and tail is best there.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bret Williams
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 1:34:29 am

Yes, but what you're describing isn't dynamic trimming. Neither is anything the ripple guys are doing. Let's forget the many extra steps to get to it, but even the limited nature of what they're doing is only available on them primary. And I didn't see a roll edit where both sides are shown nor even the tail or head of the otherside of the single sided edit. All he did was a slightly dyamic extend edit.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 1:45:35 am

[Bret Williams] "Yes, but what you're describing isn't dynamic trimming. Neither is anything the ripple guys are doing. Let's forget the many extra steps to get to it, but even the limited nature of what they're doing is only available on them primary. And I didn't see a roll edit where both sides are shown nor even the tail or head of the otherside of the single sided edit. All he did was a slightly dyamic extend edit.
"


This - i actually thought the video did more to show the shortcomings of Dynamic trimming in FCPX than anything else. Its not all about simply being able to play around an edit point.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 2:08:29 pm

[Neil Goodman] "did more to show the shortcomings of Dynamic trimming in FCPX than anything else."

Interesting. I saw quite the opposite for the way I work. Much like when I switched over to FCP from Avid, and everyone was saying 'well the trimming is FCP sucks, Avid is the only way..." I soon found out I really missed nothing from Avid and I was faster at FCP. And now after learning more and more about trimming in FCPX I realize that I really don't miss alot from FCP7 and Avid (which is a moot point as it's dead in my region) and FCPX is much faster in the way I work. I customized the keyboard and went at it. Not missing much at all in the way I work. Your mileage will certainly vary.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Neil Goodman
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 8:06:19 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Interesting. I saw quite the opposite for the way I work. Much like when I switched over to FCP from Avid, and everyone was saying 'well the trimming is FCP sucks, Avid is the only way..." I soon found out I really missed nothing from Avid and I was faster at FCP. And now after learning more and more about trimming in FCPX I realize that I really don't miss alot from FCP7 and Avid (which is a moot point as it's dead in my region) and FCPX is much faster in the way I work. I customized the keyboard and went at it. Not missing much at all in the way I work. Your mileage will certainly vary."

Cheers mate- glad its working out for you!


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Richard Herd
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 9:46:41 pm

Regardless of how anyone works, how it be known where to cut if the head and tail are unseeable (Jeremy's post notwithstanding.) This is especially a problem on a continuity cut between angles of the same action.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 1:50:17 am

[Richard Herd] "Regardless of how anyone works, how it be known where to cut if the head and tail are unseeable (Jeremy's post notwithstanding.) This is especially a problem on a continuity cut between angles of the same action.
"


Well, you get it pretty close with your first cut, then tweak later. I am not seeing what you are missing.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Neil Goodman
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 3:34:08 am
Last Edited By Neil Goodman on Jan 29, 2015 at 3:55:10 am

[Scott Witthaus] "[Richard Herd] "Regardless of how anyone works, how it be known where to cut if the head and tail are unseeable (Jeremy's post notwithstanding.) This is especially a problem on a continuity cut between angles of the same action.
"

Well, you get it pretty close with your first cut, then tweak later. I am not seeing what you are missing.
"


What your missing is that not everyone works like that.

To have to step into the precision editor, then only to take a stab, and "get it pretty close", then have have to step out, grab the mouse and trim a second time to get it perfect with dual heads up view is crazy to me and so is trying to make one frame adjustments with the mouse when you have snap off. Especially in a situation where i have other people in the room with me.

The whole point of it being "Dynamic" is being able to dial it in while watching the edit!

The dual heads up should stay up if the trim tool is activated so you can make adjustments with the keyboard and you should be able to dial in a pre/post roll so that it loops back. Thats one thing i really hate about X and doesnt make any sense to me.

This video just seems like a couple guys trying really hard to convince themselves that this trim tool is on par with others.

*im not trying to bash fcp-x. Just not buying what this video is selling.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 4:22:20 am

Have to mostly agree with Neil and Brett and others here - this isn't really "dynamic trimming" in the Avid sense of the term. It has some aspects of it, but the lack of looping playback and on-the-fly trimming is what keeps it out of contention.

That having been said, in almost 20 years of Avid editing, I can count the number of times I've used dynamic trimming on one hand. I think I'm pretty fast on the Avid (faster than I am on my new favorite, FCP-X!) and I just don't seem to work that way. So not having true dynamic trimming on X just doesn't bother me.

I find the expanded audio, non-colliding clips, easy fade handles and real-time fx more than make up for the lack of dynamic trimming. With or without clients in the room.

I would hate to see this particular feature be the deciding factor against X. As always, YMMV, to each his own, post no bills, don't run with scissors, etc.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 4:47:43 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "I would hate to see this particular feature be the deciding factor against X. As always, YMMV, to each his own, post no bills, don't run with scissors, etc."


I dont particularly use "dynamic trimming" like those guys tried to demonstrate most of the time either but im sure narrative guys do all day long, - I do however heavily rely on the loop back, dual heads up display and the ability to see the changes to both clips when trimming with the keyboard. I generally dont have "snap" on when i cut so the mouse is clumsy to trim with IMO. Its not just an Avid thing, Premiere has it to now.

Its not a dealbreaker for me in X - Im getting to like it, I just dont prefer it and Ive found while X has lots of strengths and great things going for it, trimming just isnt one of them.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 5:08:37 am

I often select the side I need to trim and hit play, then trim with comma or period. The playhead jumps back to edit point every time I move a frame or 5.

To see the cut, I hit shift-/ which puts the playhead 2 seconds before the cut.

This isn't sexy, but it's effective.

The two up mouse view would be nice with kb trimming.


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Bret Williams
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 5:11:42 am

I don't use dynamic either really. On occasion perhaps with cutting in the main content track. But I find it much much quicker to click and play where and when I want than to wait for the loop around.

BTW - if you find the mouse is a bit inaccurate, try holding down command. Since FCP 1.x holding down command changes the resolution and allows you to make much more precise volume and trimming adjustments.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 10:38:14 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Jan 29, 2015 at 10:48:08 pm

having mucked about a bit with dynamic trimming in ppro, the one thing you'd wonder, given fcpx is a system in a form of constant ripple, is why it doesn't have a dynamic state?

it defaults to being able to shove everything forward or back in a slaved connected state as long as you perform with the mouse - I'm not really sure why it can't do that in real time? You'd say this - a live roll forward trim function in avid half answers most irritations with the lack of a track select forward tool, if you want to look at things that way.

fcpx seems like an oddly static city skyscraper timeline - gigantic edit connect blocks waiting to move in a paused quiet place you mouse around -
but it's not exactly lively is it?

*edit* - for kicks - given I'm already staring at all these auto-committed parent child chained edit decision objects slaved to each other before I move a single thing - isn't it all becoming a semi-concrete intellectual mush?

sorry - couldn't help self. that said - the X timeline is an abomination. stay for the veal.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Lawrence
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 11:12:10 pm

[Neil Goodman] "The whole point of it being "Dynamic" is being able to dial it in while watching the edit!"

This ^ x 1000.

With keyboard-driven dynamic trimming ala Avid or Premiere, you dial in the cut in by feel in real time. I don't use it a lot but when I need it, there's nothing else like it. By comparison, the precision editor seems like a toy to me.

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 30, 2015 at 1:21:00 am

[David Lawrence] "you dial in the cut in by feel in real time. I don't use it a lot but when I need it, there's nothing else like it."

you'd wonder why that live clip to clip affordance is something the apple timeline can't provide.
they do seem a little buried under complex modalities and child parent relationships.

the timeline does seem at its best when you can just stare at it wondering if apple got engineer confused about about their audience.
I do love the bobbing white dot that reminds me of the active inspector object as I traverse the primary, secondary and connected video channels though.

because that is just editing to its core when you really think about it.
that process - with the bobbing white dot going from the primary to the secondary to the connected clips as i continue stare at it - that's just the business.

thats editing right there. no question whatsoever. clean intent. a massive intellectual win.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Herb Sevush
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 1:29:14 pm

[Neil Goodman] "This - i actually thought the video did more to show the shortcomings of Dynamic trimming in FCPX than anything else."

I never use JKL dynamic trimming, does not fit my style. However I do know what it is, and what it isn't is what those two guys were trying to do with X. That was a "hustle" presentation by guys trying to sell you training materials. Adobe recently went all in on developing dynamic trimming in Ppro to woo Avid editors. All the features are there, dual displays, looping edits, both ripple and slide, with no need to ever touch anything but the keyboard. I don't know if Adobe succeeded in what they were trying to do, but they were actually trying. If you need real dynamic trimming, X is not for you (to quote Bill Davis) "period."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 27, 2015 at 9:31:17 pm

[Richard Herd] "But I need to see the tail and the head."




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David Mathis
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 27, 2015 at 9:40:18 pm

Post of the year award!


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Kannan Raghavan
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 1:03:27 am

LOL!:)

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


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tony west
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 2:46:38 pm

I totally understand why someone used to using that technique in MC would not like doing it in X

It really becomes a moot point for me because I no longer have the patience for J K and L

The skimmer is so much faster at getting around the timeline. When I review an edit I need to get to the other side of the edit for play back. The skimmer gets me there in a blink of the eye. In the dynamic trim mode getting to the play through position is slower than I can get there with the skimmer.


In dynamic trimming you are changing the incoming clip and the out going clip at the same time. it's rare that I don't like the position of both clips. I am usually set with where the out going clip is and it's just a matter of where the incoming clip is going to hit.

I would rather trim those clips one at a time and be in position for review faster with the skimmer than set up that DT mode and review J K an L


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Richard Herd
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 28, 2015 at 9:44:43 pm

I thought the precision editor had a dual display option.


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Bret Williams
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 5:13:29 am

It does, but just like elsewhere, only when you're dragging with the mouse. And the precision editor only works in the primary. Not much good for anything.


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tony west
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 29, 2015 at 2:33:19 pm

I like that it's there as an option Richard but I really don't find myself using it.

I use the trim tool much more often between clips and I use the 2 displays then.


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James Ewart
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 31, 2015 at 4:46:21 am

Reassign Snapping 'n' to Extend Edit?

So what happens to the Snapping function?

Well apparently the thing to do is have two different Command Sets: One for when you are using the Precision Editor where 'n' is Extend Edit and another for when you get back to the main edit Timeline so you get Snapping back on the 'n' key.

This seems like a bit of a kerfuffle to me.

It's useful to know you can do this in the Precision Editor I suppose but I never use the PE anyway because there is no 'Two Up' display which there is in the main Timeline.

Incidentally I used to use the Trim Edit function of FCP7 quite a lot but most people I know didn't use it at all. But I think Trim Edit was rather better than the Precision Editor.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 31, 2015 at 5:33:56 am

The precision editor isn't very great. That's OK. It may be useful for people that can't see how to marry two seemingly disparate moments.

But trimming in X, with keyboard, with just a tad bit of mouse pointing, is effective. But those of that use it, know this.

It's editing. You know. The business. Of editing. Bold face type, with the imfahsis in italics, for emphasis.

Disparate. Dispare. Dis. (Pre)Pare.

Ehhhhh, whatever.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 31, 2015 at 12:44:14 pm

[James Ewart] "Reassign Snapping 'n' to Extend Edit?"

...or any key you like.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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TImothy Auld
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Jan 31, 2015 at 11:58:36 pm

FCPX has nothing like dynamic trimming. Nothing.

Tim


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 1, 2015 at 8:49:35 pm

[TImothy Auld] "FCPX has nothing like dynamic trimming"

So this definitive comment sets up a good question. What's your definition of Dynamic Trimming?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 1, 2015 at 10:52:32 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " What's your definition of Dynamic Trimming?"

My definition would be trimming, both rolling and ripple, within the context of viewing your material at playback speed. In order to accomplish this you have to see both your current source and the source you are cutting to (heads and tails) when making your live (dynamic) decisions and have to be able to implement your decision without looking away from the screen.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 1:00:22 am

[Herb Sevush] "My definition would be trimming, both rolling and ripple, within the context of viewing your material at playback speed. In order to accomplish this you have to see both your current source and the source you are cutting to (heads and tails) when making your live (dynamic) decisions and have to be able to implement your decision without looking away from the screen."

I would also add that all these options should be possible using only the keyboard.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Herb Sevush
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 4:30:06 am

[David Lawrence] "I would also add that all these options should be possible using only the keyboard."

I think the keyboard is currently the best way to meet the requirement of never having to look away from the screen, but I could envision other ways as well - I wouldn't want to limit it to keyboard actions just because that's the best way at the moment.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 4:35:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] ""I would also add that all these options should be possible using only the keyboard.""

I know people that use just the keyboard are 'more professional' with probably many more hours under their belts than I (although I look back with some incredulity that my journey started 15 years ago but I'm not a day in day out editor I confess).

I'm pretty happy all day long with my left hand on the keyboard and my right hand on the mouse. Sure lots of you would probably beat me in an edit race but apart from that i'm not sure I see an advantage. Surely just a preference but that isn't really what makes the process 'dynamic' is it?

Or is it?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 4:42:48 pm

[James Ewart] "Surely just a preference but that isn't really what makes the process 'dynamic' is it? Or is it?"

The reason for the keyboard isn't speed, although it is faster, it's that you can keep your attention on the screen as you edit. The key to dynamic trimming is to make your decisions while watching real time playback, and if you have to look down at the timeline while your selecting something with a mouse, then your attention isn't on the screen. As long as all actions can be performed while your attention is on the screen it doesn't really matter what devices you are using. Currently this has always been done with keyboard commands, but that's not essential - watching the screen as you make your cuts is.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 5:34:53 pm

Before this gets out of hand.

FCPX does support dynamic keyboard trimming, without the precision editor.

If the clips are in the primary, you can select which sides (or both) you want to trim with nothing but the keyboard.

Hit play, start trimming, and the playhead will go back to the cut point and keep playing

If you need to see a few second before the cut, hit shift-/. The playhead will move to two seconds before the cut and play for 2 seconds after, this time (pre and post-roll) can be adjusted in the editing preference. IF you add loop playback to that (command-l), you literally have real time looping playback of your cut point.

No, you don't have a 3 or 5 up with all of your options ahead or behind the cut, but you do see what is actually in the timeline, and you make real time adjustment with the keyboard, while watching in play back in real time. It doesn't get much more dynamic, yes, there could be a few more windows and viewers.

If the clips are in a secondary, you have to select that cut point with a mouse, but once selected, you can use the keyboard.

The precision editor is more than just an extend edit, and the Ripple video doesn't show this, but if you simply add the option key to the bracket keys, you trim the incoming clips in point.

This takes about 5 minutes to understand, but then again, you'd have to open FCPX, want to learn how this works, and mess around with it.

The precision editor, for me, does nothing but slow me down, as did the dynamic trimming in Legend. FCPX's keyboard trimming, on the other hand, is much more fluid for me than what was in Legend.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 3, 2015 at 1:08:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX does support dynamic keyboard trimming, without the precision editor"
[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX's keyboard trimming, on the other hand, is much more fluid for me than what was in Legend."


Exactly. Maybe not Avid's definition of Dynamic Trimming (is there a trademark on that?) but it is dynamic trimming. If you actually use or have used dynamic trimming (lower case on purpose) in X and other NLE's you will see it's dynamic. Maybe not Dynamic as Avid defines it, but certainly dynamic. It's just a personal workflow preference.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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James Ewart
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 5:46:28 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The reason for the keyboard isn't speed, although it is faster, it's that you can keep your attention on the screen as you edit. The key to dynamic trimming is to make your decisions while watching real time playback, and if you have to look down at the timeline while your selecting something with a mouse, then your attention isn't on the screen. As long as all actions can be performed while your attention is on the screen it doesn't really matter what devices you are using. Currently this has always been done with keyboard commands, but that's not essential - watching the screen as you make your cuts is."

I thought that was the whole point of the mouse. It's as close as you can get to touch screen without touching the screen. You have to be looking the screen when using the mouse.


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David Lawrence
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 6:55:01 pm

[James Ewart] "I thought that was the whole point of the mouse. It's as close as you can get to touch screen without touching the screen. You have to be looking the screen when using the mouse."

The problem is you have to look at the software UI screen when using the mouse, not the actual content you're editing.

[James Ewart] "'Im pretty happy all day long with my left hand on the keyboard and my right hand on the mouse. Sure lots of you would probably beat me in an edit race but apart from that i'm not sure I see an advantage. Surely just a preference but that isn't really what makes the process 'dynamic' is it"

This is my edit style probably 80-90% of the time as well. I switch to keyboard only when I need to precisely fine tune a cut by feel.

[Herb Sevush] "I think the keyboard is currently the best way to meet the requirement of never having to look away from the screen, but I could envision other ways as well "

Herb, I can't think of anything more efficient then pressing a specific button. I suppose besides the keyboard, something like a dedicated control surface could provide the same tactile UI, but most of us just have keyboards. What else did you have in mind?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
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facebook.com/dlawrence
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Herb Sevush
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 7:27:08 pm

[David Lawrence] "I suppose besides the keyboard, something like a dedicated control surface could provide the same tactile UI, but most of us just have keyboards. What else did you have in mind?"

Dedicated control surface, or even, if someone wanted to set it up, vocal commands. I realize these are far afield, but I wanted to keep the focus on function, not just current implementation. But yes, as far as I know, anyone who is serious about using dynamic trimming at this point in time is using keyboard commands. For me this whole subject is conceptual since I never use dynamic trimming, but at least I know what it is, and as pertains to the beginning of this whole thread, what it isn't.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: Dynamic Trimming in X
on Feb 2, 2015 at 2:18:43 am

[Scott Witthaus] "...or any key you like."

Which would you suggest?


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