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Andrew Kimery
3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 8:49:41 am

In June of 2011 Ron Brinkmann, co-founder of Nothing Real (which made Shake and was bought by Apple) wrote a piece on his blog about X and Apple and it reads like it could have been written yesterday.

All of the points have been brought up here at some time or another but it's still interesting to get a matter-of-fact perspective from someone that has had Ron's experience.


Below are a few of my favorite bits from his post called, "X vs Pro"

-Apple being focused on the broad middle and not really interested in catering to high-end, niche sectors (much more work for much less revenue).

-Jobs telling the Shake team (and some of Shake's biggest customers) that Shake development is no longer going to be driven by customer feedback. Color always seemed like an odd choice to me because it felt like the Shake experience all over again (Final Cut Server too).

-Products/features that look good in demos are typically an easier sell to management so mundane sounding feature (even if useful) get the back burner. Doesn't sound unusual for large companies and the freedom to not always focus on 'gee whiz' features is something I've from multiple Adobe employees when talking about the upside to CC.

-Ultimately Apple still makes very good products but it's up to the individual to determine if Apple still makes the right products for them.


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Steve Connor
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 9:33:28 am

Thanks for posting that, I didn't read it the first time round, it does sum things up perfectly.


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Marcus Moore
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 2:31:16 pm

Ultimately I think the post-Jobs era may benefit the FCP dev team. Jobs emphasis on surprise and his seeming bristling at specialized workflows may not have been to ProApps benefit.

Certainly we've seen FCP X development focus over the last 4 years focus almost exclusively on workflow and higher-end functionality- the very definition of "not sexy". I can't think of a single major feature added to FCP X since it's introduction where the emphasis was placed on "auto this" or "template that". Even though there have been loads templates added to FCPX, they get no documentation in release notes.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 2:47:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "-Apple being focused on the broad middle and not really interested in catering to high-end, niche sectors "

As I said when X first came out. Having a workflow that handles the top end cameras like RED and others is a niche sector itself.

Most people are not using RED across the board and if you are working on projects with cameras like that you are working on high end stuff almost by definition.

He must be talking about the niche of the niche : )

2011? Was that around the time when folks were saying that Apple wasn't going to make a new Mac Pro?
I think that's high end. Most people can't afford that product. I know very few people personally that own one of those including myself. Hopefully by this summer.

From the post I see I don't think most people on here have one.

I'm more concerned with Apple keeping up the quality standards.

As much as I like X, it's a little bit buggier than I would like it to be. Then again, I don't have a new Mac Pro to run it on ; p


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 5:50:47 pm

Eternal optimist here.

I think that Apple is shedding the Pro Vs Consumer attitude and letting the market build what they want, and they have put their money where their developing mouth is.

In order to do that, they aren't going to build a "Pro" OS and and "Lite" OS, and a "Home Office" suite, and an "Enterprise" suite, and a "Student" suite, and a "Small Business Mobile Home Office" suite. They are just going to build a robust OS so you, as developer, can hang what you want off of it.

I think the way Apple sees it, call it the broad middle or whatever, everyone needs image editing capabilities, everyone needs video editing, everyone needs a camera. At this time, not everyone needs a nodal compositor, but feel free to subscribe to one.

As far as X is concerned, Apple has also put in direct professional features, even inventing a new interchange language. As Marcus suggests, Apple has brought unsexy back. JT is going to be pissed.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 6:31:29 pm

[tony west] "As I said when X first came out. Having a workflow that handles the top end cameras like RED and others is a niche sector itself."

Not catering to doesn't mean ignoring. IMO, if Apple was catering to the high-end when making X they would've sat down with people like Walter Murch and Mark Raudonis during the early stages of development and been like, "Hey, we are remaking FCP and want to do the best we can to meet the needs of the high-end film and TV community from day 1. What is your feature wish list?" That's catering to me and that certainly didn't happen. ;)

I didn't think FCP X 10.0.0 supported RED but that's neither here nor there. And at least in LA, RED cameras are so easy to get that it's common for no-budget short films on Craigslist to be shot with them and looking for finishing in 4k (but that's a rant for another day). More the exception that proves the rule, I guess.

[tony west] "From the post I see I don't think most people on here have one."

Maybe that's because people are unsure if Apple's version of a pro tower jives with what they need/want out of a pro tower? Our of curiosity if Apple kept the same form factor (expansion slots, user replaceable GPUs, etc.,) do you think nMP adoption would be better, worse or about the same as it is now?

I was holding out for a new Mac Pro but now I'm giving serious consideration to a Windows PC (haven't bought a PC since around '99). My main tools are cross platform (FCP 7 runs fine on my existing MP and X is still a non-starter for me) so the only thing keeping me Mac is my preference for Mac OS and my investment in the ecosystem, but how much that preference is worth when it comes down to has yet to be determined.

At the very least I want to wait until Apple fixes the nMP GPU issues but lord knows when that will be (or when new, new Mac Pros will be released). Every year (obviously not)? Every two years? Every three? Is there any weight to the recent rumor of Apple ditching Intel and going with ARM chips in house so they direct control of CPU development? Probably not, but are these things I want to worry about when I'm about to drop a big chunk of change on a new tower?

Both the nMP and X jive with Ron's story about Jobs and the change in Shake development. You'll get what Apple gives you. Maybe it meshes with your workflow, maybe it doesn't. No value judgement, just the reality of the situation, and it's been like that for a long time.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 6:53:08 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "At the very least I want to wait until Apple fixes the nMP GPU issues but lord knows when that will be"

So you don't have one, but you're experiencing problems?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:06:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So you don't have one, but you're experiencing problems?"

I don't own one but a co-worker has experienced problems with his on a gig we were both on, and there have been posts from PPro and Resolve users about problems with theirs. Some problems were fixed with the last 10.9 update but not all. Interesting thing is that people have reported booting into Windows on their nMP and the problem goes away so it seems like a driver issue on the Mac side of things.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:10:33 pm

Huh.

Haven't seen any problems here. I miss my tubes when I am forced to work away from them.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:42:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Huh.

Haven't seen any problems here. I miss my tubes when I am forced to work away from them."


Google "resolve mac pro gpu problem" or "premiere mac pro gpu problem" and you get a lot of hits.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:46:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Google "resolve mac pro gpu problem" or "premiere mac pro gpu problem" and you get a lot of hits."

No thanks. I'll keep those problems where they are! :)


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:03:36 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " if Apple was catering to the high-end when making X they would've sat down with people like Walter Murch and Mark Raudonis during the early stages of development "

Maybe, but they still ended having somebody make Focus without talking to either one of those people.

I know they had guys shooting with the Alexa in their very first spot on the site. That's a top end camera.
Was then and is now.

RED a cheap camera now? I would be interested to know what kind of cameras people on here own.

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe that's because people are unsure if Apple's version of a pro tower jives with what they need/want out of a pro tower? "

Maybe for those people but what about people who want a Mac Pro?

Why haven't THEY bought one yet?


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Shawn Miller
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:36:38 pm

[tony west] "RED a cheap camera now? I would be interested to know what kind of cameras people on here own."

Not sure you'll find a ton of Red owners on a forum mostly dedicated to post... but I've certainly seen and been asked to work on low to no budget projects shot on Red. I know one or two Red operators who will come out for less than $1,000.00 a day (it was twice that a few years ago). I know it's not exactly a DSLR rate, but it's not like hiring an Alexa operator either. Maybe some markets are just tighter right now?

Shawn



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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:47:54 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Not sure you'll find a ton of Red owners on a forum mostly dedicated to post"

Oh, I have seen plenty of people either write about their camera or they have it listed on their signature tag on this forum.

I just haven't seen RED or Alexa tagged often.

[Shawn Miller] "Red operators who will come out for less than $1,000.00 a day"

That doesn't mean that's a cheap camera. That just means people don't want to pay the real rate.


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Shawn Miller
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 8:15:22 pm

[tony west] "Oh, I have seen plenty of people either write about their camera or they have it listed on their signature tag on this forum.

I just haven't seen RED or Alexa tagged often."


Fair enough, I think that may go to my point though. I'm guessing that most of us are more involved in post than camera operation, so maybe you won't see a lot of folks who own 20k+ cinema cameras. Though most of us have probably worked with "high end" formats.

[tony west] "[Shawn Miller] "Red operators who will come out for less than $1,000.00 a day"

That doesn't mean that's a cheap camera. That just means people don't want to pay the real rate."


True enough.

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:51:17 pm

[tony west] "Maybe, but they still ended having somebody make Focus without talking to either one of those people."

Right. Again, 'not catered to' isn't the same thing as ignored and 'not catered to' also isn't synonymous with 'can't be used for'.


I think it's weird that pretty much everyone agrees that Apple was aiming at a broader demographic than just 'Hollywood'* productions (many people even like to point out that Hollywood productions are a very small niche w/in the video production industry so it's nice that there is an NLE that wasn't targeted at that niche so squarely from inception) but at the same time people get defensive if they feel like some is slighting X by saying it wasn't designed specifically with Hollywood productions in mind.

*for the sake of brevity I'm saying "Hollywood" to mean higher end movie and TV show productions and the related workflows that typically go along with them.


[tony west] "
Maybe for those people but what about people who want a Mac Pro?

Why haven't THEY bought one yet?"


I dunno, price? I mean, I want a Mac Pro I just don't know if I want to pay what Apple is asking for a nMP. I'd certainly

[tony west] "RED a cheap camera now? I would be interested to know what kind of cameras people on here own."

Wasn't RED always an inexpensive camera for its class? Anyway, my point was LA is so saturated with RED owners/renters that they are very easy to come by.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:57:44 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I think it's weird that pretty much everyone agrees that Apple was aiming at a broader demographic than just 'Hollywood'* productions (many people even like to point out that Hollywood productions are a very small niche w/in the video production industry so it's nice that there is an NLE that wasn't targeted at that niche so squarely from inception) but at the same time people get defensive if they feel like some is slighting X by saying it wasn't designed specifically with Hollywood productions in mind.
"


We will never know the original intent (but, of course, I love to speculate). We can say with certainty that FCPX was not released with Hollywood workflows out of the box. But now? Can we say that same thing today with someone who downloads FCPX without knowing anything about the history?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 8:52:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But now? Can we say that same thing today with someone who downloads FCPX without knowing anything about the history?"

Apple didn't go to a room full of editors that primarily work on hollywood movies and TV shows and solicit their advice years ago and Apple wouldn't today if they were building a new NLE from scratch. Assuming X never got released how many editors today would describe X if asked for a wish list of features they'd want in the next NLE? That's why some joke that PPro is FCP 8, right? FCP 8 is what people wanted, FCP X is what they got and for many people what Apple gave them is better than what they were asking for.

I don't think much would change because I'm not really talking about the end product itself (which is variable because it changes with every release). I'm talking about the methodology used to create the end product. Does Apple go to the people or do the people come to Apple? Jobs said "A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." Apple, under Jobs, was in the business of showing people what they wanted. That's what I'm talking about and that's what Ron was talking about.

I'm not saying Apple makes products that aren't good enough or can't get the job done. I'm saying Apple makes the products Apple wants to make and users can take it or leave it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:22:58 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I'm saying Apple makes the products Apple wants to make and users can take it or leave it."

Isn't that true of almost everything you buy? What can you buy off the shelf that you designed, manufactured, distributed, and produced?

This method has served Apple well. If it didn't, it wouldn't have the success it has today. FCPX has added massive amounts of professional features from the outset of the release date. I still don't believe that this was a mistake, this was planned. Otherwise, they had everything they needed in iMovie. Why make another iMovie when they have iMovie?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 11:47:51 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Isn't that true of almost everything you buy? What can you buy off the shelf that you designed, manufactured, distributed, and produced?"

Too extreme down that path, J-dawg. ;)

Compare Apple's products to a competitors products and its pretty clear what I mean. The iDevices, for example, have never been the most feature rich or been the most open devices (no SD card slot, no removable battery, no non-app store apps, etc,) and the Mac Pro Tube vs an HP tower is another example of Apple only offering what it thinks the product should be regardless of user expectations. If you need PCIe slots and internal expansion you are no longer part of Apple's demographic (and you are probably in a pretty small minority so Apple isn't worried about the lost revenue).

[Jeremy Garchow] "This method has served Apple well. If it didn't, it wouldn't have the success it has today. FCPX has added massive amounts of professional features from the outset of the release date. I still don't believe that this was a mistake, this was planned. "

Of course it has served Apple well (if it didn't they wouldn't keep doing it) and of course it was planned. Again, I'm not saying Apple is releasing 2nd rate products or anything like that. I'm saying Apple is releasing software how it thinks software should be done, not necessarily how the end users (especially a niche inside of a niche of end users) thinks it should be done. Go back to 2010 and ask 100 editors what they want and I bet 0 of them describe FCP X but now many people that use X never want to use anything else.

From Ron's blog post:
"After the acquisition I remember sitting in a roomful of Hollywood VFX pros where Steve told everybody point-blank that we/Apple were going to focus on giving them powerful tools that were far more cost-effective than what they were accustomed to… but that the relationship between them and Apple wasn’t going to be something where they’d be driving product direction anymore. Didn’t go over particularly well, incidentally, but I don’t think that concerned Steve overmuch… :-)"

Did Apple suddenly turn Shake into iShake? No, Shake of course stayed high-end, but Apple did change the development of Shake from user feedback-centric (for lack of a better term) to Apple-centric. Does this literally mean that Apple never listens to user feedback? Of course not, but the driving decisions at Apple come internally, not externally. Contrast that with Adobe where employees have blogs and due to the overwhelming response to this blog post (Happy New year... and a question) the AE team is actually focusing much more on making AE faster right now at the expense of new features.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 3:55:31 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Compare Apple's products to a competitors products and its pretty clear what I mean. The iDevices, for example, have never been the most feature rich or been the most open devices (no SD card slot, no removable battery, no non-app store apps, etc,) and the Mac Pro Tube vs an HP tower is another example of Apple only offering what it thinks the product should be regardless of user expectations. If you need PCIe slots and internal expansion you are no longer part of Apple's demographic (and you are probably in a pretty small minority so Apple isn't worried about the lost revenue).
"


So, if user choice is what makes a better product, why is computer business on the whole, down?

http://www.statisticbrain.com/computer-sales-statistics/

You can't run a big technology manufacturing company on charity.

[Andrew Kimery] "Did Apple suddenly turn Shake into iShake? No, Shake of course stayed high-end, but Apple did change the development of Shake from user feedback-centric (for lack of a better term) to Apple-centric. Does this literally mean that Apple never listens to user feedback? Of course not, but the driving decisions at Apple come internally, not externally. Contrast that with Adobe where employees have blogs and due to the overwhelming response to this blog post (Happy New year... and a question) the AE team is actually focusing much more on making AE faster right now at the expense of new features."

And Adobe will also tell you, if you don't like our business model, go away. They are doing it more and more publicly these days. How is this different from Apple who says, if our products aren't good enough for you, go away? How is Adobe not building the customer base that they want, just like Apple?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:22:18 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, if user choice is what makes a better product, why is computer business on the whole, down? "

Where did I say what's better and what's worse? I think you are reading a lot into my posts that isn't there.

In my original post I even said, "Ultimately Apple still makes very good products but it's up to the individual to determine if Apple still makes the right products for them." And in a couple other posts I said I'm not making any value judgements, I'm just talking about Apple's methodology.

[Jeremy Garchow] "How is Adobe not building the customer base that they want, just like Apple?"

They are. Again, I've never said this way is right and that way is wrong... I've just been talking about Apple's MO.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 8:01:47 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "*for the sake of brevity I'm saying "Hollywood" to mean higher end movie and TV show productions and the related workflows that typically go along with them.
"


Also, if you look at other tools, like say the Phantom high speed camera, that camera was not developed with a Hollywood workflow in mind, but yet, it was constantly used on Hollywood productions. So much so that Vision Research developed a camera with production in mind (Flex 2k and 4k).

Canon did not develop a still camera to be a cinema camera, yet, everyone was using them, so much so that Canon developed a cinema camera.

FCPX was not released with Hollywood workflows, but yet, people used it. And now....


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 8:20:19 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " but at the same time people get defensive if they feel like some is slighting X by saying it wasn't designed specifically with Hollywood productions in mind."

Some might. I just like to keep it real. It is what it is. Their first marketing video had high end folks using high end camera set-ups in it. That's a fact. I have always said they wanted both groups (that's an opinion). Why wouldn't they? They all do. I just don't think anybody figured out how to get this close until now.


I also think they were aiming at what they see as the future of production. People running around the country side with a DSLR putting together that incredible video on a laptop shown in the tread below.


[Andrew Kimery] "Anyway, my point was LA is so saturated with RED owners/renters that they are very easy to come by."

My point is it doesn't matter how many people in LA rent that camera cheap .The rest of the country is not saturated with RED cameras or Alexa cameras or f55s


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 9:02:54 pm

[tony west] "That's a fact. I have always said they wanted both groups (that's an opinion). Why wouldn't they? They all do. I just don't think anybody figured out how to get this close until now."

Of course they want both groups (every company would love to have 100% of the customers) but things like iMovie import where there at launch while things like OMF were not. if you wanted to get your FCP 7 project into X tough-titties until Philip released his 3rd party utility. Apple is not a company that tries to be all things to all people.

[tony west] "I also think they were aiming at what they see as the future of production. People running around the country side with a DSLR putting together that incredible video on a laptop shown in the tread below."

I think that was their target demo and they were going to back-in to the high-end if they could, but if not, no big loss to them. Millions of potential users vs a few 10's of thousands of potential users.

[tony west] "My point is it doesn't matter how many people in LA rent that camera cheap .The rest of the country is not saturated with RED cameras or Alexa cameras or f55s"

You said "...if you are working on projects with cameras like that you are working on high end stuff almost by definition" and that's not true. Go to places saturated with gear (like LA) and REDs will be used on everything from no budget short films to high-end feature films.

Again, no value judgements, just the reality of the situation.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:11:07 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I think that was their target demo and they were going to back-in to the high-end if they could, but if not, no big loss to them. Millions of potential users vs a few 10's of thousands of potential users."

Ok, first of all I consider that guy's work high end. Second, didn't the editor of Focus say he was in talks with Apple while he was cutting that film and they put stuff in that he wanted?

I thought I saw where he said that.


[Andrew Kimery] "You said "...if you are working on projects with cameras like that you are working on high end stuff almost by definition" and that's not true. Go to places saturated with gear (like LA) and REDs will be used on everything from no budget short films to high-end feature films. "

Should I have said 90 percent of the market then? I can tell you that nobody in St. Louis is going out for nothing with their RED

I guess I'm in a great market to work in.

You would have to break down "no budget short film" as in, give me the day rate for the camera and op


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:46:30 pm

[tony west] "Ok, first of all I consider that guy's work high end. Second, didn't the editor of Focus say he was in talks with Apple while he was cutting that film and they put stuff in that he wanted?
"


Don't know. I assume more behind-the-scenes stuff will come out once the movie drops and I'm curious to hear about their workflow in depth.


[tony west] "You would have to break down "no budget short film" as in, give me the day rate for the camera and op"

Credit, copy, pizza and maybe a token amount of cash.

Probably a guy who has a buddy that works at a rental house (or knows another guy w/a RED) that said they could use the camera for free over the weekend assuming it wasn't rented out. Or a guy bought a RED and thought it would be a great thing to rent out to make some extra cash except that a ton of other people in LA thought the same thing so he's willing to shoot for copy, credit and pizza just to network and put something new on his reel.

I'm not in production but I have friends in production (some rent out their own gear) and they get hit up for freebies all the time. The market place is so saturated with gear and talent it's unbelievable. On more than one occasion I've been asked to grade (Resolve only of course) and deliver a 4K master of someone's film for between $0-100 dollars.

When I say no budget I mean no budget. The only thing that gets paid for is food and gear they must have but haven't figured out how to borrow or steal it. Then of course there are the 'named' no budget gigs that are typically pilots with B or C list talent (or 'famous' producers) attached that don't pay anything, but when the pilot inevitably gets picked up they will certainly call you back to work on the series at your normal rate.


/rant


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:49:48 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "When I say no budget I mean no budget. The only thing that gets paid for is food and gear they must have but haven't figured out how to borrow or steal it. Then of course there are the 'named' no budget gigs that are typically pilots with B or C list talent (or 'famous' producers) attached that don't pay anything, but when the pilot inevitably gets picked up they will certainly call you back to work on the series at your normal rate."


With all due respect, sir. What the f*ck is Apple supposed to build to appease that market?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 11:49:09 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "With all due respect, sir. What the f*ck is Apple supposed to build to appease that market?"

I dunno... a machine that gives away free kittens?

Tony asked for more detail about what I meant by "no budget" so I gave him more detail. Not sure what any of that has to do with Apple.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 12:18:02 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Tony asked"

Thanks for the break down Andrew

I had no idea that your market place has turned into such a circus and a race to the bottom.

This is a big union town here and for the most part we stick together.

I'm out, I have hijacked the tread enough.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 12:29:22 am

[tony west] "I had no idea that your market place has turned into such a circus and a race to the bottom.

This is a big union town here and for the most part we stick together.

I'm out, I have hijacked the tread enough."


Ringling Brothers ain't got nuthin' on LA! lol

The good part about LA is that there's room for everyone. The bad part about LA is that there's room for everyone.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 21, 2015 at 11:56:28 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "With all due respect, sir. What the f*ck is Apple supposed to build to appease that market?
"


hahahaha thanks for a good laugh brother


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David Mathis
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 1:31:03 am

Introduce an Apple Cinema Camera with FCP X and Motion for free? ;-)


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Walter Soyka
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 1:44:59 am

[David Mathis] "Introduce an Apple Cinema Camera with FCP X and Motion for free? ;-)"

Where would the market go from there?

BMD would have to slash their prices and pay you cash money to download Resolve/Fusion, just to stay competitive.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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David Mathis
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 1:51:56 am
Last Edited By David Mathis on Jan 22, 2015 at 9:08:18 pm

My post was meant as a joke in response to other another post.

* EDIT * Now that would be nice. A reverse subscription only model. Now if Adobe would offer something like that . . . :-)


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Walter Soyka
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 1:56:36 am

[David Mathis] "My post was meant as a joke in response to other another post."

Mine was, too!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:40:12 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What the f*ck is Apple supposed to build to appease that market?"

I actually put in a request for a check box called "Happy Client" because it would be very useful during a client sitting-in session. I could open that window and check the box. Fewer questions. Less discussion. More things getting done. Super important feature that we need in all NLEs.


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Bill Davis
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 23, 2015 at 8:29:02 pm

[Richard Herd] "I actually put in a request for a check box called "Happy Client" because it would be very useful during a client sitting-in session. I could open that window and check the box. Fewer questions. Less discussion. More things getting done. Super important feature that we need in all NLEs"

No problem, just rig a button up to a nitrous oxide feed into the AC system. Problem solved.

(patting self on the back!)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Neil Goodman
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:56:48 am

[tony west] "[Andrew Kimery] "Anyway, my point was LA is so saturated with RED owners/renters that they are very easy to come by."

My point is it doesn't matter how many people in LA rent that camera cheap .The rest of the country is not saturated with RED cameras or Alexa cameras or f55s"


Alot of people picked them up when they were selling battle tested epics for $3999 a year or two ago. I know a bunch of people personally who got one.

And yes, there a dime a dozen in L.A and the operators to go with them. Even the surf industry/ community (ie, not a ton of money) is pretty much all exclusively using RED. Its a trip.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 3:36:26 am

[Neil Goodman] "And yes, there a dime a dozen in L.A and the operators to go with them. Even the surf industry/ community (ie, not a ton of money) is pretty much all exclusively using RED. Its a trip.
"


What's really a trip is I see camera rental houses out there asking 600 a day for the epic Dragon.

Odd that they could get that since everybody and their momma has a RED.




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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 7:03:59 am

[tony west] "Odd that they could get that since everybody and their momma has a RED."

What they ask and what they get might not be the same thing. ;)

Legit productions will go to legit rental houses and pay legit prices for legit gear and support. On the other hand, broke student filmmakers will just borrow a RED Dragon from their day job and shoot their student film in 6k.
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/crg/4854032492.html

Another student film shooting with a RED Dragon (and Zeiss Super Speeds too)
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/cwg/4848338693.html

Low budget music video being shot on RED Dragon (needs steady cam op w/rig for $150/day)
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cwg/4851127979.html

Spec commercial being shot on RED Dragon looking for actors (no pay, just copy)
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tlg/4846517988.html

Low budget horror film shot on RED Dragon looking for Sound Editor (no pay)
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/crg/4857192893.html

And that's just in the last week or so.


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Bret Williams
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:03:06 pm

I shot my buddy's band at a bar on NYE '93 with a $40k betacamsp that I borrowed from work.

I shot a music video in college with the 3/4" umaticsp I borrowed from the pbs station I was interning at in '91.

But now I just feel old.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:17:09 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "broke student filmmakers will just borrow a RED Dragon from their day job and shoot their student film in 6k"

Yes Andrew, I'm not surprised by that. People shoot stuff cheap all the time for their own reasons.

If I shoot my cousin's little game with my gear for FREE that doesn't represent the "legit" rate in my market place.

That's not the rate for the Cardinals, that's just me doing a favor for my family.
We are not really talking about the same thing at this point so I'm glad you gave those examples.

I have worked out of your market and I know what I got paid. It's not 150

If you are working on a "legit" job that somebody paid 600 for just the camera body before the pay for the glass, that's gonna be a high end job. I'm talking about that kind of job, not a spec job or little league family thing.

The next time I'm shooting your LA Kings and they fly me out there and ask me to work for 150 then I will consider that your "legit rate"

And, I won't be coming hahahaha


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:17:39 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:19:53 pm

[tony west] "If you are working on a "legit" job that somebody paid 600 for just the camera body before the pay for the glass, that's gonna be a high end job. I'm talking about that kind of job, not a spec job or little league family thing."

I know the type of job you are talking about and my point was that RED cameras, in LA, get used on a variety of projects from low-end to high-end on a regular basis, and the low end isn't just shooting your nephew's little league game. It's commercial projects that the producers are certainly going to try to sell to distributors and should that fail (and it most likely will) the producers will go the self distribution route.

"Shot on RED" isn't indicative of anything in my neck of the woods other than that the project was shot on a RED camera. There's a bit of irony in that low-end projects try to get high-end gear to add more perceived value to their project, but it's so easy to get high-end gear in LA that instead of the perceived value of the low-end project going up, the perceived value of the high-end gear goes down. One of the unintended consequences to the democratization of the production process I guess.

20 years ago the cliche was 'everyones got a script' because all you needed for a script was a typewriter or word processor. Actually getting a finished project in the can was the hard part because if you didn't have the money you needed a lot of connections and a lot of favors. These days all the gear is so prevalent that 'everyone has a movie' is the cliche. Now the offhand litmus test is where can I watch your movie? YouTube only? Netflix? iTunes? Cable? Can I walk into Best But and pick the Bluray up off the shelf? Did it get a theatrical run? Even in the relatively short life of online VOD/streaming (Netflix, Amazon, iTunes, Hulu, etc.,) I feel like the cache for that has gone down. It's still certainly better than only having it available on YouTube but instead of "Sweet, it's on Netflix! That's awesome?" The reaction is more like "Cool. My buddy's film is on Netflix too...." With that being said, streaming doesn't have the stigma that 'direct to DVD' used to (even though it's basically the same thing).

Well, I think that's enough slightly jaded ranting for now. haha


EDIT:
Tony, let me know the next time you are shooting a King's game and we'll try and get a beer. I'm always down to putting real life faces to online names.


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tony west
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 9:32:31 pm

I still say your situation is an outlier : )

Most of the country is like my town where I know of only 4 Epics in town and 3 Scarlets.

You can only rent it from one house and it looks like this.




Who knows, maybe our town will look like yours soon. LA always gets stuff before us. Good or Bad : )

[Andrew Kimery] " "Sweet, it's on Netflix! That's awesome?" The reaction is more like "Cool. My buddy's film is on Netflix too...." "

I would love to chat with you about these changes in the industry sometime.

Seems like that could be a cool forum to add. It could be called "The new industry" OK, somebody will think of a better name

My brother lives out there and works in the industry. The next time I plan on being out is as a fan with family when the Cards play the Dodgers in June.

Maybe we can catch up.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 9:47:39 pm

[tony west] "I still say your situation is an outlier : )"

No argument from me there. Never meant to imply that LA is representative of anything besides LA. NYC might be close but that's just a complete guess on my part.

[tony west] " The next time I plan on being out is as a fan with family when the Cards play the Dodgers in June."

That would be cool. I've added a reminder on my calendar.


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Richard Herd
Re: 3.5 year old blog post still relevant
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:34:35 pm

[tony west] "People running around the country side with a DSLR putting together that incredible video on a laptop shown in the tread below."

Honestly, the video in Photoshop is a great workflow for dSLR shooters running around the country side.


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