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Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...

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Bill Davis
Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 6:37:28 am

Seems the Adobe CFO said some stuff about CC in a business mag and ignited a bit of a kerfluffle on the CC or not Board. I think I'll sit this one out and just watch. Whew.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:11:44 am

[Bill Davis] "Seems the Adobe CFO said some stuff about CC in a business mag and ignited a bit of a kerfluffle on the CC or not Board. I think I'll sit this one out and just watch. Whew."

To be fair it's the exact same kerfluffle as it's always been but, hey, after nearly three weeks of no posts that forum was in danger of being mothballed. haha


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Steve Connor
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 7:53:11 am

[Bill Davis] "Seems the Adobe CFO said some stuff about CC in a business mag and ignited a bit of a kerfluffle on the CC or not Board. I think I'll sit this one out and just watch. Whew."

It's actually quite a good tempered discussion, nowhere near as heated as some of the discussions have got on here


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Bob Woodhead
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 1:20:05 pm

Why is it that this forum (and techniques) seem to be far more active than the others?

Could it be that we're done editing sooner, and thus have more time to post?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 2:53:05 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Could it be that we're done editing sooner, and thus have more time to post?"

Or that your underemployed and have more time to post?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Keith Koby
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 5:07:53 pm

Perhaps old editors in their retirement have lots of time to be cranky on message boards...


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Bill Davis
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 5:13:51 pm

I dunno.

All these pretty amazing new videos coming out of the FCP X community seem pretty well split between the young guns and the eminence grise crowd.

That's one of the really cool things about it.

Does not appear to favor someone editing out of a backpack OR someone editing out of a converted hay barn on their horse property. Everyone gets to play!

How cool is that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 6:12:11 pm

And the undermining of X editors continues.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:11:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And the undermining of X editors continues."

Pay no attention, Jeremy. After just coming off a Premiere job, I can see it's just fear and jealousy...

;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 3:15:15 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " After just coming off a Premiere job, I can see it's just fear and jealousy..."

Details anyone?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:14:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Details anyone?"

I think he was using CS6.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:20:04 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I think he was using CS6."

If true, he might as well compare it to cutting on Legacy, *edit, or media 100. Just because Adobe has the decency to support it's final perpetual product doesn't make it any less DOA.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Walter Soyka
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:20:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And the undermining of X editors continues."

In fairness, though, said undermining/good-natured ribbing of X editors was preceded by a little undermining/good-natured ribbing of non-X editors.

Remember how often we had to watch that "Writing video" render progress bar with Legend? There are major speed gains (and thus free time for posting?) to be had with Premiere or FCPX with this feature alone, without even getting into product-specific workflow efficiencies.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 2:41:34 pm

Haha.

But that has nothing to do with being "under employed" due to software used.

Or the notion of nodal composting being too complicated for "X editors" that our poor wittle (yes wittle) heads will explode.

Or that Motion users couldn't even handle Ae.

Or that the rest of fcs3 was too much for an "editor".

None of these have anything to do with each other.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:45:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Or the notion of nodal composting being too complicated for "X editors" that our poor wittle (yes wittle) heads will explode. "

Was I so unclear in that other thread that it came across this way?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 7:23:45 pm

I know what you meant, but still, it just feels like we are idiots for ever choosing anything that has to do with Apple, or for being interested in more tools, or that we are underemployed, or that Apple's take or leave it attitude is unique in some way to industry? The Adobe CFO is now on record saying he looks at himself in the mirror and tells himself that what is best for Adobe is best for the customer. That is crystal clear. (Sorry, I am crossing a few different threads here).

I think that X is for simpletons is a misnomer, as a matter of fact, very smart people that don't want to figure it out, so it can't be all THAT simple, because if it was too simple, there'd be nothing to figure out.

X is not a nodal compositor, that's for sure. And your insights to how images need to be expressed in nodes vs layers vs whatever X's method is (abstract vs implicit) are great, but just because a person uses X doesn't mean that shouldn't be interested any anything else.

Let's flip it the other way around. What can X do for someone that is primarily a Fusion compositor, if and when Fusion comes to the Mac? Maybe good things, especially since Blackmagic is working with FCPXML?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 7:42:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Let's flip it the other way around. What can X do for someone that is primarily a Fusion compositor, if and when Fusion comes to the Mac?"

My gut reaction was to say that X can probably do a lot for someone that is primarily a compositor because X would probably be the easiest NLE for them to learn, but now I feel like you are going to throw a lamp at my head for thinking I implied that X is only for people that don't know how to edit. ;)


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Herb Sevush
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 7:53:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " it just feels like we are idiots for ever choosing anything that has to do with Apple, or for being interested in more tools, or that we are underemployed, or that Apple's take or leave it attitude is unique in some way to industry?"

Look who's grumpy now. My remark was strictly counterpunching and not meant to be taken seriously.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The Adobe CFO is now on record saying he looks at himself in the mirror and tells himself that what is best for Adobe is best for the customer. That is crystal clear."

Yes, from the ubiquitous "my way or the highway" school of marketing. But at least with Adobe it's the business side, not the design team, that leads with that attitude.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 8:55:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Look who's grumpy now. My remark was strictly counterpunching and not meant to be taken seriously."

I am a sensitive artiste, with an e. My feelings are crushed upon the mere mention of punches.

[Herb Sevush] "Yes, from the ubiquitous "my way or the highway" school of marketing. But at least with Adobe it's the business side, not the design team, that leads with that attitude."

Do you think that will serve Adobe better in the long run?


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Herb Sevush
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 10:01:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Do you think that will serve Adobe better in the long run?"

I don't know about Adobe but I like to believe that the people designing my tools have me in mind (abstractly), but in the long run your screwed either way. With discreet *edit the design guys were great and the marketing guys screwed us, with Apple it was the other way around - in both cases I was left looking for a new workflow.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 10:16:33 pm

[Herb Sevush] " - in both cases I was left looking for a new workflow."

I've stopped trying to guess who's going to be 'the best' in the long haul. Hell, even just 5 years from now. Too many variables. I mean, compare the NLE outlook in 2010 vs today. FCP Legend killed, X-bomb, Avid delisted then relisted on stock market, Adobe looking like a great FCP Legend replacement, Adobe hated for going subscription only, BM adding NLE features to Resolve and Lightworks slowly but surely moving along.

I'm with Walter, I'm going to do the best I can to save my work in cross-platform ways (like XMLs or AAFs) and focus on being agile. I'm preparing my eggs to go into many different baskets (does that sound weird, I feel like that sounds weird).


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Walter Soyka
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 2:32:20 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I know what you meant, but still, it just feels like we are idiots for ever choosing anything that has to do with Apple, or for being interested in more tools, or that we are underemployed, or that Apple's take or leave it attitude is unique in some way to industry?"

I can imagine how you feel. It has been suggested to me on numerous occasions that I may lack important critical thinking skills because I use Creative Cloud.

I only meant to draw out the very significant differences in philosophy between a couple of applications, not pass any kind of judgment on their users. I certainly didn't intend any offense -- but if I have caused it anyway, please accept my apologies.


[Jeremy Garchow] "Let's flip it the other way around. What can X do for someone that is primarily a Fusion compositor, if and when Fusion comes to the Mac? Maybe good things, especially since Blackmagic is working with FCPXML?"

I would bet that the number of editors interested in compositing is greater than the number of compositors interested in editing as part of their regular workflows.

That said, I'd say the same thing to them that I said to Eric regarding Fusion: FCP X is pretty speedy and interactive. You'll like it!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 3:55:07 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I can imagine how you feel. It has been suggested to me on numerous occasions that I may lack important critical thinking skills because I use Creative Cloud."


Well...duh. !


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 8:14:18 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Why is it that this forum (and techniques) seem to be far more active than the others?

Could it be that we're done editing sooner, and thus have more time to post?"


Playful joke about non-X editors

[Herb Sevush] "Or that your underemployed and have more time to post?"

Playful joke about X editors.


[Keith Koby] "Perhaps old editors in their retirement have lots of time to be cranky on message boards..."

Playful joke about non-X editors

[Jeremy Garchow] "And the undermining of X editors continues."

???


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 3:58:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Bob Woodhead] "Why is it that this forum (and techniques) seem to be far more active than the others?

Could it be that we're done editing sooner, and thus have more time to post?"

Playful joke about non-X editors

[Herb Sevush] "Or that your underemployed and have more time to post?"

Playful joke about X editors.


[Keith Koby] "Perhaps old editors in their retirement have lots of time to be cranky on message boards..."

Playful joke about non-X editors

[Jeremy Garchow] "And the undermining of X editors continues."

???
"


Playful joke about an X editor who hasn't taken the time to read the thread due to over employment.

Honestly, I missed Keith's comment.

It all makes sense now.

Herb, I hope we can catch a baseball game sometime.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 4:20:31 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Playful joke about an X editor who hasn't taken the time to read the thread due to over employment."

Now yer just rubbing our noses in your success! Jerk. lol ;)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 4:26:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Now yer just rubbing our noses in your success! Jerk. lol ;)"

I am up to my ears in skateboarding soccer mom videos. We are really trying to reach a new audience, you know?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 4:38:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am up to my ears in skateboarding soccer mom videos. We are really trying to reach a new audience, you know?"

This is why you do need Fusion. Check out SecondMan's KAK (Kick-ass Keyer). It's been perfect for retaining all that fuzzy, furry edge detail on all our cat videos.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 4:52:06 pm

Just to give some context to the "look in the mirror" quote by Adobe's CFO posted on the "grumpy" board, I will quote the post that started the hoo-ha over there. My thanks to David Miller for finding and posting this:

"...the highway....for both employees and customers. They're not going back so far as he's concerned:

http://blogs.wsj.com/cfo/2015/01/16/adobe-systems-cfo-managing-business-mod.....

Here's the key section:
" Fourth, burn the boats. At some point along the way, you have to say this is the right answer and a new strategy. You can’t go back. From an employee point of view, there will be some who resist change. They have to get on board or leave, because frankly we are focused on this and this is the new direction.

From a customer perspective, they are like anybody. They like doing things the way they’ve always been done. At first, you give them a choice of buying the old and new way. A lot will fall back and not move to a subscription model. But you have got to get to the point where you say to the customer, we’re not updating a perpetual product. It’s a major milestone.

From an employee perspective you have to stick to your guns and say, ‘Like it or leave.’ From a customer point of view, you have to nudge them to the new model, slowly but surely, by not giving them a new option any more. To do that you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, ‘The customer is better off with the new model.’ "

I hope he continues to look at himself in the mirror as many of their former customers walk away to some other option.

The 3 million or so that they have captured into CC so far are likely the "low hanging fruit" of their customer base...the ones most likely to join. The remaining 75% or so (Adobe apparently has around 12 million customers) may prove a lot harder to persuade.

Will be interesting to see, I'm sure.

- David"

Draw your own conclusions. Myself, I'm moving to FCPX. Haven't touched Premiere in months.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 6:15:13 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Draw your own conclusions. Myself, I'm moving to FCPX. Haven't touched Premiere in months."

Honestly, the decision process the CFO lays out is the only way it can be done. You can't wallow around in uncertainty when you are as big as Adobe.

At some point, you have to move forward with the implementation of the decisions that have been made. It's what Apple did, it's what Adobe is doing, it's what Avid and others are doing. It's time to move on and move forward.

There are, of course, a number of avenues to take when trying to reach those decisions. A lot of it involves some level of a "cut and run" (take it or leave it!) approach. Adobe and Autodesk are doing it with a pricing model (at the expense of some customers and perhaps employees), Apple is doing it with legacy software and hardware (at the expense of some customers and perhaps employees), Avid is doing it from an accounting standpoint after having to lose quite a bit (at the expense of some customers and perhaps employees).

To be perfectly honest, I just don't like Premiere. This is not a slight towards Adobe. Adobe has done an amazing job of bringing it up to speed very quickly, but it's not something I wanted to invest countless hours in trying to master at this time. Even with X's blemishes and holes, the underpinning or how Walter may say, the way the data is expressed, is more in line with how I think, or how I want to think. Now, it's taken a little while, but even the interchange has come a long way. I am doing fairly complex retimed and ramped timelapse transfers from FCPX to After Effects using Xto7 and it it working really really well. It works so much better than trying to get in to Motion, because it's impossible to get what I am trying to do in to Motion (take that low floor/ceiling!). I do not feel limited with X, and the creative work and process I am able to do (retiming in X is truly fantastic) trumps dynamic link for me. Also, with Roles, it seems that most interchange programs are now allowing to choose which Roles to send in the XML. This makes things so easy.

I have to have a CC subscription, so I can very easily peek in and see what's going on with the CC Pr updates. I am most interested in the Speedgrade capabilities at this current time, and a faster After Effects will be great.

Jeremy


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 7:12:35 pm
Last Edited By Jim Wiseman on Jan 23, 2015 at 7:14:39 pm

Thanks for your insight, Jeremy. I'm taking to FCPX quite well, and honestly, as my work at this point is entirely documentary, boiling down footage from dozens of tapes over the years, it is great for these projects. I'm using FCP Legacy as digitizer as it is best suited for tape capture. I'm only using Motion for titles and transitions. No need for AE. Certainly not Premiere on a "pay as you go, forget about it if you don't" basis. I have one client that pays the bills and their objective is to make something out of historic cultural footage that they, and I have a great interest in preserving.

Just thought the "burn the boats" attitude of the Adobe CFO was a bit shocking, considering the number of people they are leaving stranded. My opinion is that Apple, though they certainly changed the paradigm, is not forcing anyone to go into rental mode. I don't have to submit to having my "boat" burned. I can still use FCP Legacy as an important part of these projects because I "own" it. Still works on my 2012 Mac Pro and so far as I can tell, on my new Tube. Also both programs are paid for and suitable for me, as I am obviously committed to the Mac.

Still think the Adobe model has more to do with the stock price than the users, the 1/4 that are left, many not "Full Boat" with a lot of $10/month photo users. Check out the conversation on the "grumpy" forum. No one over there is biting anyone. BTW, I still most enjoy this forum for it's preponderance of positive exchange of viewpoints. "Grumpy" is rather focused on the problems many of us have with Adobe. Not always so positive, but I think necessary. This one is a free form conversation about what we all love. Media creation. Not so much finance and business models.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 8:00:43 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Just thought the "burn the boats" attitude of the Adobe CFO was a bit shocking, considering the number of people they are leaving stranded. My opinion is that Apple, though they certainly changed the paradigm, is not forcing anyone to go into rental mode. I don't have to submit to having my "boat" burned. I can still use FCP Legacy as an important part of these projects because I "own" it. Still works on my 2012 Mac Pro and so far as I can tell, on my new Tube. Also both programs are paid for and suitable for me, as I am obviously committed to the Mac."

Sometimes decisions are tough. From the perspective of the Adobe CFO, for better or for worse, you have to look at who your customers are, and then try and make a decision on the best way to service those customers so they will pay for that service.

Of the "12 million" customers, how many of those are paying customers? What does a biyearly-ish release schedule do for them? What are they paying for? How can we do better than that?

It's obvious many companies are seeing the subscription benefit, or think they are seeing a benefit as subscription based services are sprouting up everywhere in the software industry in general.

It's true that Apple isn't forcing a rental model, but you have to be OK with what they are offering in the hardware department.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 8:57:26 pm

Re the 12 million vs 3 million, you can see it in their income statements over the last several years. Large drop after CC. I posted the chart on the "grumpy site". It is about in that proportion. It will take a couple of years to see if they made the right decision.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 10:33:21 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Re the 12 million vs 3 million, you can see it in their income statements over the last several years. Large drop after CC. I posted the chart on the "grumpy site". It is about in that proportion. It will take a couple of years to see if they made the right decision."

It will also be a couple of years until any early adopter discounts wear off. Once those wear off, the income nearly doubles for not doing anything but retaining the customer, that's why 2016 is such a big year as the early discounts will start to wear off on a majority of the customers by then.

What I find most fascinating is how he explains that they basically had to walk over to "Wall Street" and show them why this is the right move as the analysts didn't understand it at first.

I'm sure it was a good decision for them. Adobe will do fine.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 10:30:32 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Just thought the "burn the boats" attitude of the Adobe CFO was a bit shocking, considering the number of people they are leaving stranded."

Jim, I think you may be reading into a statement too much and taking it out of context. I won't try to convince you otherwise though. You've made your decision based on those things that are important to you. I can respect that even if I can't agree with it.

However, to point out that you might have rose-colored glasses on, didn't someone burn the boat with users the day FCPX shipped? Consider what FCPX 10.0.0 was then... No EDL, Source monitor, broadcast output, XML or OMF are just a partial list. Burned the boat on FCP8 which should have been 64-bit, RED workflows, native, etc.

You might respond...
[Jim Wiseman] "I can still use FCP Legacy as an important part of these projects because I "own" it. Still works on my 2012 Mac Pro and so far as I can tell, on my new Tube. Also both programs are paid for and suitable for me, as I am obviously committed to the Mac."

The same is true for CS6 except that its 64-bit, handles a whole variety of codecs and workflows that FCP really can't. Enables cross-platform workflows with true exchange as well as FCP XML and OMF and AAF. Tight integration with standard apps like Photoshop and After Effects, ground-breaking technology for GPU, etc. etc. etc! Again, the real point is you might have a slightly biased point of view - which is okay. I just want to point this out.

As for Adobe, I promise you that we will continue to try to earn your business and perhaps some day we will find a way that makes you satisfied. Until then, I wish you...

Warm regards,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 24, 2015 at 1:09:59 am

Thanks for your response Dennis. I have to point out that FCPX has evolved into a professional level application in the time since 10.0 was introduced and I have not had to pay a single dime extra for the improvements, which I am positive will continue. This was for the cost of CC for 6 months at normal pricing. I was rather taken aback at the interface changes at first myself, and this was what convinced me to move to Premiere CS6. I was just getting to the point that I was feeling comfortable with it when it was announced that beyond the current version it would only be available by rental, with projects becoming inaccessible without monthly payment ad infinitum. It didn't take me and many others long to realize we were being put in a box we couldn't get out of if we committed to CC. That was just unacceptable for my situation.

Since that time I have become proficient with FCPX and realized it's many advantages. It more than meets my needs, and in fact, makes my work freer, faster, and more creative. It is far more cost effective than CC. I'm spending much more time reading the FCP forums and buying training for FCPX. If I really need FCP 7, I have it running on all my current machines. It is great at tape capture, for instance.

Perhaps if Adobe comes up with the often suggested off ramp whereby a user could pay a fee or commit to a minimum period of rental to lock into their current version of CC it might be bearable. This would allow a user to continue to work on their projects without being tied in perpetuity to monthly payments. They could then be sure of maintaining access to their work. That, in my mind might be a way to justify the CC program. I would only want the video related apps plus Photoshop anyway. My CS6 will fulfill my Adobe needs for many years with my current hardware strategy if no new approach materializes.

CC, as it stands, to be seems quite one sided in it's advantage to Adobe vs. the user. The current plan reminds me of being "shipwrecked" on the Adobe "island". That was why "burning the boats" struck such a raw nerve with David and myself when I read his posted quotes from your CFO . How could you not help but think of that image? If I were Adobe, I would keep the CFO as far away from the press as possible. He isn't doing your public relations any favors. I've used Photoshop since the first version, and much other Adobe software. But no one company is indispensable. Hope you can come up with a better model.

Thanks again for your reply, it is appreciated.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 24, 2015 at 7:00:58 am

[Jim Wiseman] "Thanks for your response Dennis. I have to point out that FCPX has evolved into a professional level application in the time since 10.0 was introduced and I have not had to pay a single dime extra for the improvements, which I am positive will continue. "

Until Adobe starts selling hardware it's an apples to oranges comparison. There's no way a software company can do the sell once, upgrade and support forever at no extra charge business model like a hardware company can.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 24, 2015 at 5:33:59 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Until Adobe starts selling hardware it's an apples to oranges comparison. There's no way a software company can do the sell once, upgrade and support forever at no extra charge business model like a hardware company can.
"


Absolutely true, Andrew. But for me, since I'm all Mac, it is software vs. software, so I guess you could say Apple/Adobe vs Apple/Apple. If you have a good Mac (in my case new Mac Pro) it is a direct comparison. There is a big advantage in many respects besides pricing to having the same company able to integrate the marriage of hardware and software.

I will also agree with those that say there is a great virtue in having competition. With CC rental, at least in my case, and I imagine many others, Adobe doesn't measure up, as much as I would like to have their offerings beyond CS6 in my toolkit. I was already using CS6 looking forward to the next upgrade. Then rental only was dropped. So CS6 will have to do until they offer an off ramp or rent/purchase model. The threat of inaccessible projects as an incentive to use their software doesn't make it for me. In other words the specter of "burned boats". YMMV.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 24, 2015 at 6:21:29 pm

[Jim Wiseman] "Absolutely true, Andrew. But for me, since I'm all Mac, it is software vs. software, so I guess you could say Apple/Adobe vs Apple/Apple. If you have a good Mac (in my case new Mac Pro) it is a direct comparison. There is a big advantage in many respects besides pricing to having the same company able to integrate the marriage of hardware and software.
"


Completely agree and that's a big reason why I've been Mac-centric since '02. An obvious downside to being so connected to a single vender is what happens when your needs and the vender's products start going separate ways?

That's a crossroads I'm approaching right now. For the first time in a long time my primary NLE is not a Mac-only NLE so as I'm looking for a new desktop I don't have to by a Mac and since I don't have to buy a Mac I've been more critical of the offerings because I have a choice between Windows and Mac again.

Interesting times in our field these days.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 7:33:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " I am most interested in the Speedgrade capabilities at this current time, and a faster After Effects will be great."

Curious Jeremy, what has you looking at SpeedGrade while Resolve is available?

I've been eyeballing SG too but that's mainly due to it's ability to interact with PPro. If I was coming from any other NLE my first inclination would be to just go with Resolve.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 7:54:36 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Curious Jeremy, what has you looking at SpeedGrade while Resolve is available? "

Because it's attached to a more full fledged NLE.

The way my projects go, or seem to be going, is that picture lock is a farce. Since everything has been translating over to Adobe from FCPX pretty well lately, I can take the edit from "never-locked" to finished on Pr and have Speedgrade stay on a per clip filter type of basis. If changes do come, I can simply pick it up in Pr rather than trying to get changes back from X to Resolve and back.

For more normal workflows, Resolve is great, though, and the FCPXML integration is pretty good.

Also, I have been getting really great success right within FCPX. It has taken some getting used to, but I do like the results, and the workflow couldn't be easier. :)

Jeremy


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 23, 2015 at 7:59:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " I can take the edit from "never-locked" to finished on Pr and have Speedgrade stay on a per clip filter type of basis. If changes do come, I can simply pick it up in Pr rather than trying to get changes back from X to Resolve and back."

That "never locked" stage is exactly what appealed to me too about the PPro/SG relationship. Nifty to hear that your X projects come over so cleanly into PPro. This is exactly the kind of relationship I hoped for between FCP 7 and Color back in the day as the 'just one more fix' round tripping gets annoying fast.


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David Mathis
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 25, 2015 at 5:35:35 pm

I wish for playback issues in Resolve gets resolved (pun intended) as there some very nice editing tools. The big ones are trimming and keyframing which is the weakest link in the chain as X is concerned. Once playback is fixed, FCP X will be used for organizing and editing can be done in Resolve, which should be trackless as well. Those darn tracks! ;-)


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David Mathis
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 21, 2015 at 5:16:21 pm

Surely, you must be kidding? I thought it was civilized in here, no pitch forks or flaming torch. By the way did not call you Shirley! ;-)

I had to throw an Airplane reference in there.


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Noah Kadner
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 22, 2015 at 5:26:54 am

The debate here is philosophy, there it's business model.

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
Call Box Training


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Austin shelton
Re: Grumpy times over on the Cows Creative Cloud or Not board...
on Jan 25, 2015 at 2:02:03 pm

He must be.


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