FORUMS: list search recent posts

The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Steve Connor
The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 7:13:58 pm

Is it possible to have a reasonable discussion about this? I'm confident it is.

So what are the benefits of the magnetic timeline over tracks?


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 7:37:46 pm

I'm going to harbor a guess and say this will be a more one sided discussion than Herb's multicam thread since multicam is common ground that's found in all the major NLE's where as the magnetic timeline is not.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 11:55:14 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "since multicam is common ground that's found in all the major NLE's where as the magnetic timeline is not."

That about covers it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index


James Ewart
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 7:47:24 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 13, 2015 at 7:52:27 pm

[Steve Connor] "So what are the benefits of the magnetic timeline over tracks?"

It's lovely simply not having to worry or even think about what might be happening outside of your field of view. No "select all forward" necessary. Ever. No second thought given to what might be getting knocked out of sync ten minutes down the road or more. So you can concentrate on where you are. It's a huge advance In my view.


Return to posts index

David Mathis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 8:03:03 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Jan 13, 2015 at 9:47:09 pm

No worrying about track assignments or making an unintended edit as of a result of failing to pay attention to said tracks. Connected clips staying together unless told otherwise. Focusing on the story not mechanics, though learning the basics is a good learning experience.

So, a Motion question here for good measure: Benefiits of groups in Motion over pre-comps in After Effects, just for kicks. Now off to my vacation.


Return to posts index

Lydia Robertson
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 20, 2015 at 12:20:01 am

I agree with James. I have come to loath working in FCP(legacy) and AVID after years of loving them both for different reasons. When you are editing a feature film with lots of audio and video tracks it is intolerable to have to jump through the hoops those NLEs require to keep sync when making even little adjustments. So YAY, Mgnetic Timeline! On the other hand, it is easy in FCPX to switch to the position tool and "turn off" the magnetic timeline and there are plenty times in the day that I do that.


Return to posts index


Dennis Radeke
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 8:59:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "So what are the benefits of the magnetic timeline over tracks?"

Well, the question you ask starts with a bias whereas Herb's question was one of inquiry and an exposition of where he's come from.

If that's how you posit the question, as Andrew said, you're likely to get very one-sided answers.

My two cents,
Dennis


Return to posts index

Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 9:13:49 pm

Fair point. So...

Herb: "So I invite you to enlighten me on what you see as the strengths of multicam in X."

Steve: "So I invite you to enlighten me on what you see as the strengths of the magnetic timeline in X."

Let the games begin anew.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 13, 2015 at 9:56:42 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Well, the question you ask starts with a bias whereas Herb's question was one of inquiry and an exposition of where he's come from.

If that's how you posit the question, as Andrew said, you're likely to get very one-sided answers.
"


Fair point so let's continue using Jeff's rephrasing of the question.


Return to posts index


Herb Sevush
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:11:17 am

[Scott Witthaus] " What do you learn without actually doing it?"

I learned that X handles start-and-stop shooting for multicam much better than PPro, and if that was a major part of my workflow, I would have to seriously consider it. I learned that X has no ability to flatten it's multiclips, and along with that it is very difficult to stabilize or use optical flow on any of the clips in it's multicam timeline, all of which is quite simple in Ppro, and if that's a serious part of your workflow, then X might not be for you.

It takes me at least a month of continuous, full time usage to even begin to evaluate an NLE. After the first month I hated Legacy. After the third month I was glad I hadn't stopped after the first month. Bill Davis constantly bemoans those who "give up" on X too soon, that it can take a long time to "wrap your head around" X's way of doing things. I don't have 3 months to go down the wrong path so doing research saves me from investing my time in something that is obviously not the way to go. YMMV.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:19:02 am

Magnetic timeline - the debate ;-)

For me it's a pro and con. I object to the fact that removing a dissolve at the head of a timeline causes a shift in timing by half the length of the dissolve.

I'd love to see a way to lock storylines or clips in a position relative to time, not each other. Like turning on track locks in other NLEs.

In general I like the magnetic timeline for roughing in an assembly, but really cumbersome when polishing the edit.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:41:05 am

Anyone have any comment on the lead pipe cinch fact that Avid has had the equivalent of the magnetic time line for 30 years or so? But you can turn it off if you need to?

Tim


Return to posts index


Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:49:38 am

[TImothy Auld] "Anyone have any comment on the lead pipe cinch fact that Avid has had the equivalent of the magnetic time line for 30 years or so? But you can turn it off if you need to?"

I have mentioned that in one of the earliest threads around here, but it didn't seem to phase anyone.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:16:53 am

Well, we'll see if it fases anyone else.

Tim


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:33:16 am

[Oliver Peters] "I have mentioned that in one of the earliest threads around here, but it didn't seem to phase anyone."

Non-X users here. Isn't the action of media moving out of the way (automatically 'making a hole' if you will) as you drag a clip around the timeline one of the big features of X's timeline? Avid's timeline certainly doesn't do that.


Return to posts index


Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:43:32 am

Isn't the action of media moving out of the way (automatically 'making a hole' if you will) as you drag a clip around the timeline one of the big features of X's timeline? Avid's timeline certainly doesn't do that.

Yes. This.

I'm not aware of any NLE except X that overlaps the clips to avoid collisions. I think the name "magnetic timeline" is a poor choice, since the "magnetism" is really just ripple editing, which any NLE can do. What might be a better, more accurately descriptive name?


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:55:39 am
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:56:18 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "
I'm not aware of any NLE except X that overlaps the clips to avoid collisions."


Sony Vegas does... but you can also turn it off.

Shawn



Return to posts index

Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:58:45 am

Shawn -

How does that work in Vegas? (Never even seen a Vegas!)
I assume it has conventional tracks. Or does it layer the overlaps like a Fairlight? And does it overlap like X for video as well as audio?


Return to posts index


Shawn Miller
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 2:19:50 am

Hi Jeff,

Vegas has conventional tracks, and yes it does overlap video as well as audio when in auto cross fade mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0CSYCqk3ZPk#t=210

When I came back to Premiere from Vegas years ago, I really missed auto fade and auto ripple. It's nice not having to think about clip collisions. :-)

Shawn



Return to posts index

Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 2:31:20 am

Shawn -

So as I understand the tutorial, the colliding clips create crossfades, which I think is very much like Pro Tools. But the clips don't actually move away and overlap like X.

As far as AutoRipple, it's really just selective ripple editing, which is handy.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it still seems that X's behavior is unique and inextricably tied to its lack of tracks.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 12:24:05 am

It's also tied to the fact that the entire X editorial system is constructed with wildly different philosophy overall,

Where traditional timelines used to be the ONLY place where editorial decision making took place, in X that is no longer true.

This was a MAJOR philosophical shift in NLE operational focus, IMO.

In X, your editorial decision making starts inside the database by allowing the editor to express anything from a single edit decision - to the entirety of the editing decisions for their entire program - with as much precision as they elect to employ via range selection and keyword storage.

This truly can becomes an actual "editing stage" when used with intent.Seen that way, it gives one the option to do multiple pre-edits of not just a single clip, but multiple versions of any clip as well. The database tracks these pre-edits and allows you to do a number of things with them. You can do a simple string out. OR you can use the Auditions function to create additional scene choices inside a pre-trimmed string out - and if you do - it's the MAGNETIC nature of the storyline that allows you to make quick comparisons while you are altering your choices.

While you're doing that, vertical magnetism keeps any attendant content decisions (titles, b-roll, whatever) consistent - even as you're swapping auditions.

As always, to confront "the magnetic timeline" from the perspective of how it does the things that another NLE does is kinda silly. Because no other NLE does ALL the peripheral things that the one with a magnetic timeline does - so you can't really look at it as just a "thing" on it's own. IMO.

It's a tool that is NATURAL in X. And for an editor who doesn't cut in X, the very idea of it is un-natural - simply because there's never any reason for them to consider what it might do really, really well - because they typically have only a bit of vague experience in the magnetic environment - often softened by going back and forth between editorial systems - where the re-inforcement mechanism needed to solve ALL an editors challenges inside a magnetic system gets muted.

This does not diminish non-X forms of editing in the least. And I'm not arguing that one way or the other is inherently better or worse. But it remains true that that many of us who have learned the new rules - are finding ways to deploy the "database plus magnetic system" in ways that save us substantial amounts of time and stress in our daily work.

Non-X editors want to figure out "how to turn off magnetism" FIRST. Funny how actual X editors I talk to do so remarkably seldom. A (P) position tool activation here. A Tilda key clip move there. They become the very rare exception to our on-going editing.

Wouldn't you think that if magnetism was the bane that the non-X editor thinks it is, all really good X editors would spend lots of time defeating it with the functions built into the very program to do so? Oddly, none of them that I talk to ever do. And in fact when forced to work on a project without magnetism - they often feel that they're missing something very valuable and being far less efficient.

So there's that.

Really, Magnetism isn't a single "thing" iIMO. It's part of the cohesive editing system in X. And to isolate it and talk about it in the absence of the database that drives it and connected clips, secondary storylines and the other X vertical relationship "stickiness" elements - can only lead to more misunderstanding and more editors not truly familiar with X missing the larger point.

My 2 cents.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 2:09:43 am

[Bill Davis] "Really, Magnetism isn't a single "thing" iIMO. It's part of the cohesive editing system in X. And to isolate it and talk about it in the absence of the database that drives it and connected clips, secondary storylines and the other X vertical relationship "stickiness" elements - can only lead to more misunderstanding and more editors not truly familiar with X missing the larger point.
"


interesting how people define the magnetic timeline, I actually consider it to be ALL of the operations in the timeline, including most of the elements you listed,


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 7:09:52 pm

[Bill Davis] "Really, Magnetism isn't a single "thing" iIMO. It's part of the cohesive editing system in X. And to isolate it and talk about it in the absence of the database that drives it and connected clips, secondary storylines and the other X vertical relationship "stickiness" elements - can only lead to more misunderstanding and more editors not truly familiar with X missing the larger point. "

Not really.

I find FCPX's database incredibly useful for quickly logging and organizing footage without ever touching the magnetic timeline. They work together but they also work separately and like any tool, FCPX can be adapted to uses that may go beyond what the designers originally imagined.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 7:53:08 pm

[David Lawrence] "I find FCPX's database incredibly useful for quickly logging and organizing footage without ever touching the magnetic timeline. They work together but they also work separately and like any tool, FCPX can be adapted to uses that may go beyond what the designers originally imagined."

OK. That the exception viewpoint that proves the rule. The way you work is unusual, but perfectly valid, David.

But you took plenty of time to understand X in order to come to the point where you can pick the database from column A - and the traditional timeline from column B.

That's to your TASTES. And it's excellent that we all get to have different ones.

I still don't enjoy sushi. Most people are totally in the "I love sushi" camp. So when my wife and brother-in-law want to go to the sushi place, I have to work around that. It's a taste I simply don't have an interest in acquiring right now.

That doesn't make either me or the sushi lovers more right or wrong than the opposing raw fish forces.

Same with magnetism, perhaps.

Avoid it. Enjoy it only as an appetizer. Or make it a staple of your diet.

Same thing.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:43:35 am

[Andrew Kimery] "automatically 'making a hole' if you will) as you drag a clip around the timeline one of the big features of X's timeline? Avid's timeline certainly doesn't do that"

Actually in its simplest form, Media Composer does and has since the earliest versions. You have to have a simple cuts sequence of aligned audio and video. You have to switch the timeline to the heads view. This lets you rearrange clips on a single track in pretty much the same manner as simple clips in the FCP X primary storyline.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:47:10 am
Last Edited By Jeff Markgraf on Jan 14, 2015 at 2:43:05 am

Oliver -

But overlapping clips in Avid results in overwriting the non-selected clip(s) that collide with the selected clips you're moving. Which is normal if one assumes "I'm doing this because I mean to." But it's all too easy to do it by accident, and it's an ongoing pain in the @#% to move the clips out of the way in order to protect them.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 2:05:06 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "But overlapping clips in Avid results in overwriting"

Agreed. To clarify my example:



I just wanted to point out that there are older and other versions of the magnetic timeline. Not that they are necessarily equal to X's approach.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Jeff Markgraf
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 2:40:03 am

Oliver -

Right. Understood. It's the standard Avid ripple function when using the yellow segment tool instead of the red segment tool. Been doing it without the picture view for years.

This is why I think the "magnetic" name is, I think, a bit of a distraction. Ripple editing certainly isn't new, and that's what magnetic is really referring to.

The more important function of the "magnetic" timeline is the way the clips move out of the way and overlap when dragged over each other. To me, that's the real "paradigm shift" (sorry - I hate that phrase). Not overwriting (ala Avid) and not just going "thunk" and not moving (ala FCP7) is completely new for an NLE. (Pretty sure some DAWs do this by default.)

I know "non-destructive" is a fraught choice of words, but I think it comes closer to describing what's actually important here.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 5:01:09 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "The more important function of the "magnetic" timeline is the way the clips move out of the way and overlap when dragged over each other. To me, that's the real "paradigm shift" (sorry - I hate that phrase). Not overwriting (ala Avid) and not just going "thunk" and not moving (ala FCP7) is completely new for an NLE."

Under the heading of "there's nothing really new under the sun" 15 years ago EMC used tracks but still allowed non-destructive overwriting. It only had one video track and if you over overwrote a clip, the original clip was still there, underneath the new one. If you trimmed the top clip you would reveal the bottom layer, also you could send the top layer to the back. While X accomplishes this in a completely new way, by eliminating tracks, functionally it was the same. It worked this way with both audio and video. I no longer remember if there was a limit to how many layers could co-exist at the same location.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 4:30:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Jeff Markgraf] "But overlapping clips in Avid results in overwriting"

Agreed. To clarify my example:



I just wanted to point out that there are older and other versions of the magnetic timeline. Not that they are necessarily equal to X's approach."


Where is the audio, re: Avid? Is it in a track?

I have always construed magnetism as more of an audio-is-magnetized-to-the video (and not the ripple construal).


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 6:55:46 pm

[Richard Herd] "Where is the audio, re: Avid? Is it in a track?"

In this mode the audio would be on A1/A2. This mode hides the audio tracks and basically works at the point of early assembly when you'd have straight-across audio and video edits. Figure it as sort of a storyboard function. I'll have to double-check that though, as the sequence I tested was picture-only. I never use this mode and am not completely sure how it has changed in 8.3. Media Composer lets you view the timeline in Heads, Heads-Tails, and Track modes.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:59:40 am

[Oliver Peters] "For me it's a pro and con. I object to the fact that removing a dissolve at the head of a timeline causes a shift in timing by half the length of the dissolve.

I'd love to see a way to lock storylines or clips in a position relative to time, not each other. Like turning on track locks in other NLEs.

In general I like the magnetic timeline for roughing in an assembly, but really cumbersome when polishing the edit."


I agree with all of that. I think you can pros and cons about the timeline without being a hater...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:19:44 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Three months? You should know much faster than that."

I don't know about that. Look through all of the forums across the 'net related to X and you'll see a re-occuring theme. That of people struggling with X for quite awhile until something "clicked". I'm not sure 1 month is enough unless you are solidly involved in a complex project for that month and are using X in ernest.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 1:39:16 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Are we talking one month or three?
"


One month is the trial period.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 6:52:53 am

My apologies to the OP and Herb. My comments and posts were taking this thread off course and I have removed them. "Play on", folks.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 4:33:32 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That of people struggling with X for quite awhile until something "clicked"."

Just a quick note: The people struggling with X are the one who have used other NLEs. The "kids mostly" whose first (and only) NLE do not struggle with it.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 6:17:38 pm

[Richard Herd] "Just a quick note: The people struggling with X are the one who have used other NLEs. The "kids mostly" whose first (and only) NLE do not struggle with it."

Hopefully those kids today won't be struggling adults tomorrow when, inevitably, they'll have to learn a new NLE. And a new NLE after that. And yet another new NLE after that... ;)

I don't think anyone would debate which NLE is the easiest to pickup by someone that's never touched an NLE before. The basic questions surrounding X, IMO, typically fall into one of two categories. Can it fit into the workflows I already use without significant disruption and does using X present a large net gain in productivity (or is it more of a lateral move)? First comers aren't going to have those concerns (obviously). Neither of those questions is really unique to X though (even though X presents some unique changes) as anytime someones looks to change what they are currently doing has to examine what their needs and goals are.


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:47:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't think anyone would debate which NLE is the easiest to pickup by someone that's never touched an NLE before."

Actually that's been very much debated here Andrew. I'm surprised that it has but that's the case.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 6:09:43 pm

[tony west] "Actually that's been very much debated here Andrew. I'm surprised that it has but that's the case."

Really? Huh, I don't recall that. I remember the lower barrier to learning being used as a knock against it (iMovie Pro, an NLE so dumbed down even a soccer mom can use it!). Well, they do say memory is the first thing to go! haha


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 12:51:01 am

[Oliver Peters] "I don't know about that. Look through all of the forums across the 'net related to X and you'll see a re-occuring theme. That of people struggling with X for quite awhile until something "clicked". I'm not sure 1 month is enough unless you are solidly involved in a complex project for that month and are using X in ernest."

Agreed, but with a disclaimer - for the non-editor and with kids - the "click" largely never happens - because the X process is nearly totally intuitive for them from day one.

However, the longer an editor has been active at a high level with traditional NLE software - the longer it often takes for them to stop fighting the software so that the "click moment" can arrive.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:10:38 am

[Bill Davis] "Agreed, but with a disclaimer - for the non-editor and with kids - the "click" largely never happens - because the X process is nearly totally intuitive for them from day one. "

I know I've argued the opposite before, but I'll mention it again. I don't see the tendency in college kids (film students, granted) that X is any more intuitive to them than are other NLEs. I've gone back and forth on that one. I think at best its 50/50.

[Bill Davis] "However, the longer an editor has been active at a high level with traditional NLE software - the longer it often takes for them to stop fighting the software so that the "click moment" can arrive. "

Again, I disagree. I think it's entirely personal. There might be resistance because of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach. But there are plenty of editors in the category you describe that have taken quite happily to FCP X. In fact, I know more older editors using X than younger editors. In fact, most of the younger editors I see have moved to Premiere.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Brett Sherman
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:52:24 am
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:54:03 am

[Oliver Peters] "Again, I disagree. I think it's entirely personal. There might be resistance because of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach. But there are plenty of editors in the category you describe that have taken quite happily to FCP X. In fact, I know more older editors using X than younger editors. In fact, most of the younger editors I see have moved to Premiere."

There is another way to understand this. It's not so much that there is a lack of willingness or capability to learn it. An editor that has trained themselves with a certain logic in the timeline have to learn a new logic which can conflict with the old one. Some adjust faster than others, but that's just sort of the way the brain works. I certainly had this issue when learning X. And I'd have the same issue trying to switch back to a tracked timeline, even though I had it mastered at one time.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 2:13:53 am

[Brett Sherman] " It's not so much that there is a lack of willingness or capability to learn it. An editor that has trained themselves with a certain logic in the timeline have to learn a new logic which can conflict with the old one."

In the end, if you are fast and everything is second nature, there's no real reason to change applications. You know where everything is and largely operate on muscle memory. The software will have become totally transparent. Even if a new way might be better or faster, an experienced editor is already fast enough, so the advantages of change aren't a given. That's why Avid continues to be strong in the film and TV show world.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 12:23:08 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Even if a new way might be better or faster, an experienced editor is already fast enough, so the advantages of change aren't a given."

Yes. The tool I need most is time away from the edit room. Nothing like a next morning to help you see your project more objectively. I will gladly switch to any NLE that can extend my editing schedule - not by making me edit faster, but by giving me more days in a week. Time away from the project is where the inspiration is found.

(Warning: Dinosaur moment)
Way back in the early 80's when I was switching from film to tape I used to get into this argument with video trained editors -- they were always talking about how fast video editing was, while I was always complaining about how crappy video editing was, and beyond the technical differences I always thought that it was the slowness of film editing that allowed for better editing - not to be too poetical but you need time to let your dreams influence your work. This doesn't mean I want to work with wonky software or I don't appreciate the apparent speed gains available in X, but I'm pretty fast with any decent NLE I work with and speeding up the already speedy is not my highest priority. If I could get the gains of X without giving up the visual organization and absolute time base of traditional NLEs I'd be all over it. However, for me the one is not worth the loss of the other. As always, YMMV.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 4:17:24 pm

[Herb Sevush] "they were always talking about how fast video editing was, while I was always complaining about how crappy video editing was, and beyond the technical differences I always thought that it was the slowness of film editing that allowed for better editing "

One hundred per cent with you. It's not a race is it? Well of course for some it virtually is a race I know. news in particular but still ... time to think yes please.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 4:39:15 pm

[James Ewart] "of course for some it virtually is a race I know. news in particular but still ... time to think yes please."

News cutting and the kind of editing that occurs at large meetings where your constantly publishing news clips of the days events- that is a whole other world from mine. I honestly don't know what the best tools are for that - if I were cutting that stuff I might be one of the X proselytizers.

As for time to think, I'm being fussy here but it's actually time to NOT think I value most. Time spent cooking dinner, taking out the garbage and cursing out the Knicks (currently the worlds worst pro basketball team) while your unconscious is happily doing it's business so the next day ideas, totally unbidden, shout out directions to you as your fingers fly about the keyboard.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 5:47:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As for time to think, I'm being fussy here but it's actually time to NOT think I value most. Time spent cooking dinner, taking out the garbage and cursing out the Knicks (currently the worlds worst pro basketball team) while your unconscious is happily doing it's business so the next day ideas, totally unbidden, shout out directions to you as your fingers fly about the keyboard."

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Herb.

"Downtime" is THE most important time for any creative professional. After all, we're (hopefully) not being paid just to DO - we're being paid to imagine what to do. And the time and mental space in which to imagine is very precious indeed.

That said, it was early in my internet conversations with some fellow early adopters in London that somebody mentioned EXACTLY this when they were learning X. They didn't quite understand why - but they realized that they were getting home for dinner more regularly after learning X.

Please everyone don't jump on me because you imagine that I'm saying that X users ALWAYS get home earlier than non-X users. That's rubbish and everyone knows it. The important thing is that SOME X editors in SOME workflows discovered that the toolset in X really did make a significant difference in the time they needed to spend in their chair directly editing.

Their workflows might have been heavily oriented around re-cutting or tweeking their work - or versioning cuts - which I have to say is particularly strong in X since the database work you do in range keywording lets you find and try alternates so rapidly, the more you re-edit your work.

But the overarching point is that SOME X editors DO find that the ability to spend less time in the seat as your edit gets progressively further along. An attribute that I *do* think is related to the database front end and the magnetic storyline keeping your blocks of arrangement intact by default. Essentially some X cutters appear to feel like it's easier to "fix and move on" with X - than some other solutions.

Sometimes. ; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 7:40:49 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 15, 2015 at 7:43:19 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As for time to think, I'm being fussy here but it's actually time to NOT think I value most."

Absolutely. Got the stuff loaded in and view a lot of it fleetingly. Now let's digest it. Maybe tidy the office a bit. Go for a walk. What did I want? What have I got? How is this going to work?. Maybe not think about it at all consciously for a bit. And then something happens and slowly but surely it comes together.



Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 2:16:41 am

[Brett Sherman] "There is another way to understand this. It's not so much that there is a lack of willingness or capability to learn it. An editor that has trained themselves with a certain logic in the timeline have to learn a new logic which can conflict with the old one. "

And I think it's good to keep in mind that this isn't unique to X. I don't know how many FCP editors I helped teach Avid too and my first piece of advice from day one was always "Pretend that you've never used an NLE before" because if you don't go into it with a clean slate you are going to drive yourself crazy.

I've used enough NLEs now that I find it easier to pick up on new ones than in the past but I think NLE #1 is generally going to be the easiest (no preconceptions of how things should would), NLE #2 is probably going to be the hardest (difficultly 'segmenting' each NLE to a different part of your brain), but after that I thinkit's smoother sailing typically.


Return to posts index

Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 5:47:03 pm

Second Bill's comment on the "kids" -- my high school students, some of whom are actors from theater class and think of themselves as 'tech averse' are thrilled to instantly and intuitively succeed in X.

One of my better students is the daughter of a commercial editor in NYC, who cuts TV commercials on Avid (ever see the Barcardi "Revolution" period-piece spot?). No denigration from Dad.

Some students who are more advanced, usually boys who are already software-centric, will ask to see PPRo and I show them. I have never seen those kids have ANY trouble going from X to PPro.

Doug D


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 5:55:30 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "Second Bill's comment on the "kids" -- my high school students, some of whom are actors from theater class and think of themselves as 'tech averse' are thrilled to instantly and intuitively succeed in X.

One of my better students is the daughter of a commercial editor in NYC, who cuts TV commercials on Avid (ever see the Barcardi "Revolution" period-piece spot?). No denigration from Dad."


Not just kids, I work with a DOP who's never edited before and he's learned FCPX very quickly!


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 17, 2015 at 2:21:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "However, the longer an editor has been active at a high level with traditional NLE software - the longer it often takes for them to stop fighting the software so that the "click moment" can arrive. "

I think that's kind of a dubious claim Bill. One of those "I can't prove it, but I feel strongly about it" kind of positions. I'm sure there are instances where this is true, but to make it a blanket statement?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 17, 2015 at 3:06:34 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I think that's kind of a dubious claim Bill. One of those "I can't prove it, but I feel strongly about it" kind of positions. I'm sure there are instances where this is true, but to make it a blanket statement?
"


He did say "often" not "always" so that makes it a little less of a blanket statement and there is a truth in it that many experienced editors try to make it work like a traditional NLE at first. Certainly based on the complaints about FCPX that I've heard from people.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 6:27:28 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Three months? You should know much faster than that."

It takes me at least three months too especially when I have to learn it in between stuff (I guess that's the same for everyone).

A 30 day trial really is of no benefit to me. I need to cut a project with something (albeit a simple one) to feel like I have got to grips with it.


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 5:28:23 am

For me it's more about the connected clips.

You can grab a huge group of elements by grabbing one clip and they all travel together.

Drag them all down the timeline and drop them in a spot in seconds.

Other NLE's can be in a ripple mode but they don't have connected clips


Return to posts index

Trevor Asquerthian
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 8:21:14 am

No need to 'select all forward', no overwriting of clips in timeline, no need to 'add new tracks' before moving and the fact that connected clips move together are all features I would love to see in the other NLEs....



Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 4:34:45 pm

[tony west] "For me it's more about the connected clips.

You can grab a huge group of elements by grabbing one clip and they all travel together.

Drag them all down the timeline and drop them in a spot in seconds.

Other NLE's can be in a ripple mode but they don't have connected clips"


Tony, that's exactly what I was thinking!


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 12:41:39 am

This is where X really started to win me over Richard.

I had done my first project with it and the client wanted some changes. It was a snap moving things around in that timeline after you had already built a bunch of elements.

I found it fast to assemble stuff and fast to change things around.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 19, 2015 at 6:20:04 pm

Yes and not just fast but accurate.


Return to posts index

Mathieu Ghekiere
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 14, 2015 at 10:56:25 pm

I think the strength in a the magnetic timeline lies in the fact that, next to the fact that it for a lot of editing operations it works quicker (sometimes you have to learn to edit 'differently', think differently, and sometimes it ISN'T faster... But for most stuff, I have the feeling it is), is that it's content-based.
The whole idea of having a trackless system, BUT with Roles as an organizing system, is content-based.

No clip collisions, no track one, track two, no patching... With Roles you can think in content (Titles, Dialogue, Music... or with subroles, the options are endless).
Of course, in that case you need to organise your footage first, but organising things in X is very quick.

I think we are all agreeing that Roles can be made a lot better (grouping, color coding, an audio mixer based on it, etc. ...). But the whole idea behind it, I think is actually genius. And that you then just can choose what to export in your last step...

It takes a lot of time to think differently with the magnetic timeline. Normal rough assemblys... no. That goes fast. But more complex edits, it takes more time to think in 'terms' like primary storyline, how to move those clips, how to tackle an edit. But now that I do, I really have difficulty working in a track-environment these times because it's like my brain thinks like X now, because I use it so much (grew up with Premiere Pro and before X spent most of my young professional career in FCP 7 - I switched to X since 10.0.3 for small projects, and used it on a bigger scale in the firm where I do all my freelance work, switching them completely since 10.0.6)
And, like Oliver said, sometimes there are some things missing in X, or just because of the way it works, that some stuff works slower then in another NLE. In my mind, X wins most of the time, but your mileage may vary.

What I'm saying is... with X you think much more content-wise. I'm not an editor because I love the technical nature of editing (although of course there is a big part of me that likes it a bit). I like to tell stories. I think X is more appropriate for artists then a lot of other NLE's because of this. The magnetic timeline seems to have a more direct connection - again, most of the time - between what you want to achieve and achieving it. Like moving a clip downwards, and everything just automatically adjusting.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 12:59:51 am

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I think we are all agreeing that Roles can be made a lot better (grouping, color coding, an audio mixer based on it, etc. ...)."

Please god, limit the color coding!

In another group, somebody posted this...



(speaking ONLY of the interface representation, for all I know they're a great editor, but to my eye this is a interface disaster of epic proportions and is exactly what we'll all be seeing if we allow unlimited timeline color tagging.)

YIKES!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 2:13:31 am

[Bill Davis] "speaking ONLY of the interface representation, for all I know they're a great editor, but to my eye this is a interface disaster of epic proportions and is exactly what we'll all be seeing if we allow unlimited timeline color tagging.)
"


I know there's not much you'd like to change about FCPX Bill, but some of us would like the OPTION to have Colour coding.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 7:40:43 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jan 15, 2015 at 8:22:40 pm

[Steve Connor] "
I know there's not much you'd like to change about FCPX Bill, but some of us would like the OPTION to have Colour coding."


Steve,

That's actually not true. There are plenty of things I think could be improved about it. My friend Richard Taylor is the keeper of the big aggregated "requested features and changes" list that gets sent to Apple regularly. So I'm fully aware of the imperfections of the program.

I just don't waste my time thinking about or discussing them too much.

And here's why.

Many years ago, I did a series of videos with rather famous sports psychologist that works with extremely high level professional golfers. He was talking about some of his theories and told a story about Jack Nicholas that has stayed with me over the years. Seems Jack came off the course after screwing up a shot on one of the holes, so the interviewer immediately asked him about his mistake. As the story was told to me, Nicholas was actually confused by the question. The sports psychologist guy opined that part of what made Jack such a superb performer under pressure was that he spent almost NO time examining what DIDN"T work correctly for him. That stuff he largely ignored. He'd get EXCITED about ONLY the things that pushed him closer to his goals - NEVER getting emotionally involved in things that went wrong. Those he'd try to move past and forget as rapidly as possible.

In these forums, much of what gets posted is the "bad news" exceptions to the normal operation of things. I get that. And I'm not saying that problems or issues should ignored. Just that *I* don't care much about them unless they affect my work directly. And very few of them actually do.

Basically, I just don't find much value of constantly staring at the mole on the pretty girls face. It's there. I know it's there. But it's not HER. It's just a tiny part of her. Since I'm not a dermatologist, I don't really need to focus on that.

It serves me MUCH better to remain excited by getting to continue to hang with and watch my new partner (FCP X) develop, than it is to sit around and endlessly discuss what's not ideal about it.

Heck, that constant picky deconstruction of everything is what I kinda expect to be doing when I reach full on "codger status." Then I'll get to be one of those old guys sitting around telling everyone that everything was MUCH better in the old days - and how all the young guys don't know what REAL editing is since they've never had to understand the difference between RS-232 and RS-422 ports.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Neil Goodman
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 4:00:39 am

[Bill Davis] "Please god, limit the color coding!

In another group, somebody posted this...



(speaking ONLY of the interface representation, for all I know they're a great editor, but to my eye this is a interface disaster of epic proportions and is exactly what we'll all be seeing if we allow unlimited timeline color tagging.)

YIKES!
"


That just looks like a messy editor to me - you can choose to do or not is the point and to the extent you do it as well. That guy clearly went a little overboard but it may all make sense to him.

I personally color code certain things like SFX and Music Cues - stuff I get back from the GFX team, colored different than my temp GFX, etc.

Its really handy actually and when used in a team can really help your finisher know whats what, or another editor that picks up the project at a later date.


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: The exponential greatness of the magnetic timeline in FCPX
on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:49:00 pm

[Mathieu Ghekiere] "I'm not an editor because I love the technical nature of editing (although of course there is a big part of me that likes it a bit). I like to tell stories. I think X is more appropriate for artists then a lot of other NLE's because of this."

Yes


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]