FORUMS: list search recent posts

Audio Only cross fade in X

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
tony west
Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 6:22:30 am

There has been a lot of talk about not being able to do it below. I wonder if folks have seen this.

The boys are at it again : )








Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 6:53:27 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:00:11 am

[tony west] "There has been a lot of talk about not being able to do it below"

I think what people have been talking about is the inability to add, say a 1-3 frame fade in or out to individual clips, not crossfades. I think Herb and others mentioned doing this on every audio cut when chopping up dialog. The only way to do this is with fade handles manually. However...

The "workaround" is to take a clip, set the fades as usual with the fade handles, copy it, and paste the audio volume attributes to all the clips to which you want to apply fades. Just do it before you make any volume changes as it'll copy/paste the level as well as the fades. Pretty easy actually, you can put your custom fades on every audio cut in your timeline with a couple keystrokes... :-) I keep a couple "fade clips" with in my timeline for this if it's something that requires lots of little identical audio fades.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:22:58 am

Ok, but other people have been talking about this exactly.

Even when spencer put out his list of 10 things he wanted. Even HE wanted it.

There have been enough people talking about it for them to put this clip up.


Return to posts index


Charlie Austin
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:45:49 am

[tony west] "...There have been enough people talking about it for them to put this clip up."

Oh fore sure, it's a great tip. Just trying to head off the "not what I was talking about" posts. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:33:14 pm

Never heard any discussion or complaints about adding 1-3 frames to clips. But a nifty tip nonetheless. The big complaint has definitely been not being able to add an audio only cross fade. However I was quite surprised that the guys didn't know this tip. Some version of this tip has been around for years.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:04:33 pm

[Charlie Austin] "say a 1-3 frame fade in or out to individual clips, not crossfades. I think Herb and others mentioned doing this on every audio cut when chopping up dialog."

No, actually it's 3 frame crossfades between audio cuts. Fades to silence need to be used sparingly, since the fade out of the background room tone gets noticeable in many cases.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index


James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:02:18 pm

Speaking of room tone that's one of the features that looks really cool to me about RX4. It "finds" it behind other speech and inserts it where you need it.

Only because so few of the wave of young turks seem to know what a buzz track is any more.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 11:35:52 am

Alex 4D released this plugin for FCPX about two years ago and it works pretty well







Download from here. It's free http://blog.alex4d.com/2011/07/11/fcpx-transition-sound-only/


Return to posts index

Kannan Raghavan
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 2:55:40 pm

Wow! That's a really useful plugin, didn't know about it. Thanks for that James.

Kannan Raghavan
The Big Toad Films Pte. Ltd.


Return to posts index


Daniel Frome
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:01:49 pm

So what if we don't own motion? Can't do this trick?

Thank you for thinking about us though :)


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:24:39 pm

[Daniel Frome] "So what if we don't own motion? Can't do this trick?"
Yes you can. You don't need Motion to use Motion Templates in FCP X. It's part of the built-in capabilities of FCP X.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:33:15 pm

[John Rofrano] "[Daniel Frome] "So what if we don't own motion? Can't do this trick?"
Yes you can. You don't need Motion to use Motion Templates in FCP X. It's part of the built-in capabilities of FCP X."


Yes, and it does crossfades, linear, s-curve or +3,-3 db, it's very simple to set up a 3 frame crossfade and copy it to all your edits.

Big downsides are that you can't use it if you have existing transitions on the video clips and doesn't work on split audio!


Return to posts index


Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:38:03 pm

[Steve Connor] "Big downsides are that you can't use it if you have existing transitions on the video clips and doesn't work on split audio!"

Yeah, I guess you cold call that a big downside. As in, unusable in all but the simplest instances.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:19:46 pm

Tony -

If anything were to convince me that FCPX is not for me, that little video would do it, even though it shows a clever way to accomplish what I was talking about. First they had to use something called a gap cut so that the music wouldn't move all over the place when they were cutting the video - oh yeah, that sounds like something I need to learn. Next they come up with a solution that puts video dissolve markers on every video cut even though they are all straight cuts in order to put crossfades on the audio - all this after you have to create the effect yourself in Motion. I realize that this works, but it is the very definition of a "workaround." I'm glad this all works for you, but this is definitely not for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:46:04 pm

I think you're not realizing that an audio cross fade is already applied to the audio with ANY transition, just like any NLE where the audio and video are connected. You have to go out of the way to not have an audio cross fade on a transition.

I don't know why they use the gap clip. I've never done that and never had a need to. But it's just like any number of tricks or workarounds found in any NLE.

When I first got trained on Avid in 1996, step one was to insert an hour of black so you could work on the timeline anywhere you want as overwrites. That seemed pretty silly, by it was what everyone did as a first step in an edit.


Return to posts index


Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:55:04 pm

[Bret Williams] "I think you're not realizing that an audio cross fade is already applied to the audio with ANY transition, just like any NLE where the audio and video are connected. You have to go out of the way to not have an audio cross fade on a transition."

First, most of my video doesn't have transitions but most of my audio does, so the fact that audio transitions are included with my 2 dozen video transitions does not help me with my 300 audio edits. Next comes the fact that I don't want my audio transitions tied into a decision I make about the video, which is why I always untether my audio from my video in any NLE I use.

As to laying black down with Avid --well that kind of stupidity is why I never cut with Avid either. I used to lay down black basic when doing linear on-line editing, I would hope that we have advanced somewhat in the last few decades. Apparently not.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

John Pale
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:12:16 pm

I think you have to remember that in 1996, we were all still trying to figure out what a editors required in an NLE and how to make it all understandable to people accustomed to actual physical film editing as well as those who had worked in a linear VTR edit bay. Avid was more geared toward film editors initially, so the whole concept of "Filler" was perfectly sensible to many. It was always possible to edit effectively and efficiently on Avid without doing crazy things like adding an hour of black to your timeline or, trust me, it would not have become the dominant NLE in Film and Broadcast. Over time, Avid has added the ability to bypass the whole Filler concept without alienating long time users.


As Herb stated, I think we've come a long way since 1996 and expecting to be able to do an audio cross fade without a workaround or 3rd party plugin is not unreasonable.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:24:41 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:32:40 pm

For sure I remember laying an hour of black down on lo band UMatic edits.

Can one speculate as to what Apple would not have included some of the basic things like audio only and also make favourites effect so that one has 3,4,6,12 frame choose from. (I have now found a way of creating these but it's not nearly as simple to do as in Legacy).

With audio only edits is it possible that they missed something very simple and that it's too late for them to put it right now and that for some technical reason it's impossible? Because we are about 4 years down the line now and it hasn't happened yet. There must be a reason.


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 9:26:44 pm

My guess is they don't like the visualization of there being an audio only cross dissolve and it looking like a transition. Since the normal mode is a collapsed view, it'd pretty much have to look like the workaround. Of course there could be some way to make it obvious it's an audio only transition, but then what do you do when you have an audio transition of one duration, and a video transition of another. It's a problematic visual representation with the collapsed view. So I think their answer was that if you want an audio transition that's different than the video transition, then you manually drag the audio clips out. Which wouldn't be that odd because to create an L or J cut you have to do that sort of thing anyway. But they sorta forgot we might want audio ONLY.

it also drives me nuts that in collapsed view, if the audio is longer than the video (L cut) you don't see any representation of the audio. It's just wrong that in that case you can hear audio but there is no representation for it in the default view of collapsed.


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:59:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] " which is why I always untether my audio from my video in any NLE I use.
"


Well, in that case you can apply audio transitions just like any other NLE.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:13:58 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Well, in that case you can apply audio transitions just like any other NLE."

Well I could except for the fact that X doesn't have sync indicators, so even though I prefer to untether it would be fairly suicidal to do it in X. So there you have it - I prefer un-linking audio but X punishes you for it because it lacks sync indicators, then if you keep the audio linked, applying audio crossfades throughout the show becomes a problem. Like I said -- a product made for someone else.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:20:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Well I could except for the fact that X doesn't have sync indicators, so even though I prefer to untether it would be fairly suicidal to do it in X"

But surely sync indicators are "the old way"? :)


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:24:43 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:26:17 pm

Lack of sync indicators annoyed me too because the first thing I did to make FCPX work like 7 was detach the audio.

I still find the notion annoying but I found that once I started working the FCPX way I almost never detach the audio because I never need to.

I campaigned hard for "Override Connections" too. But I never use the tilde key function or hardly ever anyway.


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 9:30:32 pm

I only use the tilde in two instances. When slipping/sliding a shot that has shots connected to it. (Why would I want the connected shots to move too?) And when moving a shot that has clips connected to it. But mainly the former.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 11:46:32 pm

[James Ewart] "Lack of sync indicators annoyed me too because the first thing I did to make FCPX work like 7 was detach the audio.

I still find the notion annoying but I found that once I started working the FCPX way I almost never detach the audio because I never need to.

I campaigned hard for "Override Connections" too. But I never use the tilde key function or hardly ever anyway."


An excellent description of where Herb is and will likely remain.

He has a "way" of editing that has served him really, really well for a long, long time. And he's absolutely NOT going to see editing in any other way. It makes complete sense. And thats why for him, PPro was a great solution and X will never be.

What James wrote about IS the issue of coming to X from other NLE programs. You HATE what you miss right up until you discover that you're simply not working the same way any more and the things you HATED that you lost have become vastly less important in the overall scheme of things.

Cutting with a stream of default mixed audio/video streams (X's default sync clips) rather than cutting with all audio ONLY available as discrete tracks (sometimes locked to video and sometimes NOT) is one of the big differences in X workflows.

Fight it and you'll never love X.

Embrace it and ALL the pain disappears.

The X story writ large over and over again.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 1:28:57 am

[Bill Davis] "Cutting with a stream of default mixed audio/video streams (X's default sync clips) rather than cutting with all audio ONLY available as discrete tracks (sometimes locked to video and sometimes NOT) is one of the big differences in X workflows.
"


well I guess he's not wrong there.

[Bill Davis] "Fight it and you'll never love X.
Embrace it and ALL the pain disappears."


I was going to make a Novocain gag but well..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 3:26:21 am

[Bill Davis] "An excellent description of where Herb is and will likely remain.

He has a "way" of editing that has served him really, really well for a long, long time. And he's absolutely NOT going to see editing in any other way. It makes complete sense. And thats why for him, PPro was a great solution and X will never be."


Yes, and succinctly put, but with the understanding that my "way" isn't mine at all; I am but a lowly rambler traveling a well trod road laid out by my betters long before I ever left home.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 6:17:04 am

[James Ewart] "Lack of sync indicators annoyed me too because the first thing I did to make FCPX work like 7 was detach the audio.

I still find the notion annoying but I found that once I started working the FCPX way I almost never detach the audio because I never need to.

I campaigned hard for "Override Connections" too. But I never use the tilde key function or hardly ever anyway."

[Bill Davis] An excellent description of where Herb is and will likely remain.

I can't help thinking Herb and a fair few others here have nagging doubts that maybe they are missing something by turning their backs on FCPX. Because ... well because they haven't turned their backs have they? They are still here. Reminding us of how deficient and cumbersome FCPX is "hasn't got this" "can't do that".

May I say here and now I am pleased they are still here by the way. It makes for a much livelier healthier and wittier debate. But I haven't spent much time on the PP forums of late myself.


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:18:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Like I said -- a product made for someone else."

Fair enough. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 12:48:08 am

[Bret Williams] "When I first got trained on Avid in 1996, step one was to insert an hour of black so you could work on the timeline anywhere you want as overwrites. That seemed pretty silly, by it was what everyone did as a first step in an edit."

Huh? I've never seen any Avid editor ever do that and I've been on and off Avid since about 91. You are correct in that MC does not treat the timeline as a slug, like FCP "legacy" does. In that sense MC has always been like X's magnetic timeline. Just insert and go. If you have pieces that are out of order, use separate sequences and combine them in a master timeline.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 1:26:41 am

The timeline grew as you added. You couldn't just overwrite something 20min down the timeline. The timeline also annoyingly shrank if you removed stuff at the end. So if you wanted a nice workspace to shuffle things around in, then you needed to put something in the timeline and move it way down. I think I used to put a frame of audio ( with volume down) in and then move it 30min down. One of the first tricks I was shown. I saw it done quite a bit. But I haven't had to touch an avid since 2002.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 1:42:17 am

[Bret Williams] "The timeline grew as you added. You couldn't just overwrite something 20min down the timeline. The timeline also annoyingly shrank if you removed stuff at the end."

Gee... Just like FCP X ;-)

[Bret Williams] "I think I used to put a frame of audio ( with volume down) in and then move it 30min down. "

I used that trick, too, but only to add a minute or two of black after the end of the spot or show for layoff to tape.

I understand what you were doing and why, but as was said earlier, Media Composer was designed with film editing procedures in mind. Adding 30 min. of black to cut in, is some I've never seen any other Avid editor do.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 2:49:17 am

X doesn't do that. Neither does any other NLE I've ever seen. I can always navigate to any spot on the timeline and add a clip. Avid wouldn't let you do that. So if I wanted to put a clip at 1 min, then 10 min, then 5 min, it was an annoying mess of steps instead of just dragging a clip from the bin to wherever you wanted in the TL just like Media100, Premiere, or Videocube allowed.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 3:37:47 pm

[Bret Williams] "X doesn't do that."

Yes and no. In X, if I go 1 min in from the start on a blank timeline, I can add a clip because X automatically inserts a gap before the clip when I make the edit. This is the same as inserting filler in MC, except that X does it automatically.

[Bret Williams] "Avid wouldn't let you do that."

Correct. I'm not arguing that point. Avid does not treat a blank timeline as media, like FCP "legacy" and Premiere have always done. My point was that I've never seen any other Avid editor work that way as a starting point.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:04:35 pm

Herb what is your plan then?

Adobe?


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 4:31:39 pm

[James Ewart] "Herb what is your plan then?

Adobe?"


Yes, I switched over to Ppro last spring. Like every system it has it's plus and minuses, but overall I'm happy with it. For me the biggest pluses are in it's handling of audio - the track mixer is great and the ability to send to audition for audio repair with the spectrum analyzer has been an incredible help for the work I do. I don't like the subscription model, but for now Adobe is the best place for me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:19:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "For me the biggest pluses are in it's handling of audio - the track mixer is great and the ability to send to audition for audio repair with the spectrum analyzer has been an incredible help for the work I do"

Really this cannot be overstated. Audition is magic. It's also an excellent DAW, with side chain dynamic compression, some great mastering tools, and the frequency analyzer is also magic.

Two big giant complaints, for me, about the Audition and PP workflow (CS6 at least) is this:

1. When the audio is sent to Audition it rewrites the audio's timecode as wherever it is in the sequence. This is a real pain.

2. No way to conform the picture edit changes with audio (like STP and Legacy did).

So I use OMF. If anyone has any details or workflow tips, I'm all ears.

* * *

Also, for the record, they did not have to use a gap clip, they could have used a secondary. It also seems the audio issues with X are moot if the audio is sent to a DAW. But!! there is no OMF out of X and so there is no good way (I can figure) to get an X timeline into Audition. Why anyone is NOT using Audition boggles the mind. It really is that amazing!


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:54:27 pm
Last Edited By tony west on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:56:45 pm

[Richard Herd] "It also seems the audio issues with X are moot if the audio is sent to a DAW"

Richard, this has been puzzling me for a while on here. If you are sending audio out anyway how big a deal is it.

Am I wrong in thinking that X is geared toward someone who wants to do everything inside this one program?

Isn't that why logic's tools and all the plugins and color have been moved inside X?

If I could do everything I needed to do inside one program I would prefer that.


Return to posts index


Richard Herd
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:18:29 pm

[tony west] "Richard, this has been puzzling me for a while on here. If you are sending audio out anyway how big a deal is it.

Am I wrong in thinking that X is geared toward someone who wants to do everything inside this one program?

Isn't that why logic's tools and all the plugins and color have been moved inside X?

If I could do everything I needed to do inside one program I would prefer that."


Tony,

There are some very specific tools in a DAW that I absolutely love, and I do not see why they cannot be in an NLE. I will try to explain them in this post, and I hope X adds them, and I hope other folks can get a chance to use them. These are things you cannot do in Premiere's mixer, but you can do in Audition, or any pro DAW. If Apple are going to add this capability, then they absolutely must have a mixer, fx loops, sends, faders. In other posts, I have referred to this as the hypothetical Roles Inspector. It's basically just a grid based on Roles. Once those are in place, any manufacturer should be able to develop a set of audio effects to do the following type of stuff.

Here's a picture of my mixer board, for a commercial. It's all sync audio, shot for a local business. The sync audio was captured in various states of good-to-bad. The fix-it-in-post tools in Audition are pretty cool, and I will show that last, because it is unique to Audition.

If you look through the picture, you can see there is a bus, fx loop, sends, eq, and a cool switch for post and pre, and so on.




This next stuff is sidechain dynamic compression. What ever happens on this channel (this picture)...



then make the music do this. Whenever the volume on the first picture reaches the levels assigned in the second picture, then basically the volume turns down on the music. Sidechaining is pretty cool. The other way to do that is with keyframes or automation. I rarely use those methods because I feel there is more control in the dynamics compression fx.

This image is mastering effect for "spreading out the audio." It's almost like squishing out the stuff you don't want. In this case, the actors dumped a bunch of boxes on the table, while delivering a line and someone else giggled. So I wanted to keep the boxes' audio present in the mix without sacrificing the dialogue and giggle. Everything was recorded separately. If it was not recorded separately, I would do something slightly different: set up a send to a new channel and eq it to the boxes, and still spread it out. You can also notice I added reverb and the exciter so the sound of the boxes was in a slightly different space.




Here is the last pic, and it is simply crazy because the volume is louder as it moves toward white, and quieter as it is black. You can see in the top left a bunch of Photoshop type of tools, where it's literally possible to paint out sounds. In this case , I erased a whirring heater that we could not turn off because it was 17 degrees that day.



Return to posts index

tony west
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:55:08 pm

Very cool Richard, thanks for the post and the pics.

I have never used a DAW myself. Would like to learn more about this side of the table.


[Richard Herd] "You can see in the top left a bunch of Photoshop type of tools, where it's literally possible to paint out sounds. In this case , I erased a whirring heater that we could not turn off because it was 17 degrees that day. "

This is an awesome feature that RX has also. I am not up to speed on it yet but there are some things I want to paint out. To use this part I think I have to send out of X to the stand alone version of RX


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 7:25:00 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 3, 2015 at 7:46:52 am

but for now Adobe is the best place for me.

I so nearly made the switch to Adobe. Downloaded it (pre-subscription model). Started learning it and cut a couple of small projects but kept looking over my shoulder because I had this nagging doubt I might be missing something with FCPX. I was ... but it just took me much longer than I had ever imagined it would to understand it and give in to its ways. I don't blame anyone for finding that too annoying especially if the switch to Adobe is simpler.

The Adobe website has (or had anyway) nice tutorials for those moving across from Apple. Who can imagine Apple ever doing that?

You even find the Adobe guy on the Creative Cow Adobe forums for goodness sake.


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 2:00:26 pm

[James Ewart] "... but it just took me much longer than I had ever imagined it would to understand it and give in to its ways. I don't blame anyone for finding that too annoying especially if the switch to Adobe is simpler."
I guess my experience with learning FCP X was different because I was not "forced" to move... I was looking for something new when I switched from PC to Mac two years ago. That starts you out with a completely different mindset. Coming from Vegas Pro, I found FCP X to be very similar and intuitive. In fact, a lot of constructs from Vegas Pro (auditions, fade handles, 4-point envelopes from selections, etc.) found their way into FCP X and I'm sure the Apple developers studied Vegas Pro because the similarities are too close for some features that have been in Vegas Pro for 12 years now.

Still FCP X can't hold a candle to Vegas Pro in the audio department because Vegas was a DAW before it was an NLE. Getting back to the topic of this thread, FCP X has implemented audio crossfades in exactly the same way as in Vegas Pro, i.e., you move the fade handles to create a crossfade so I it seems intuitively obvious to me to do it that way. Maybe that's why I like FCP X so much.
[James Ewart] "The Adobe website has (or had anyway) nice tutorials for those moving across from Apple. Who can imagine Apple ever doing that?"
I can! ;-) Apple had a section of their web site dedicated to Windows users moving to Mac. It was called Switch 101 (here is the old URL http://apple.com/support/switch101 ) and they had images of Justin Long and John Hodgman with step by step instructions for Windows users to switch to Mac. Here is an example of that page that I captured to use in presentations that I use to give on workload migration:


BTW, I found Adobe's help to be absolutely useless. I have CS6 and they don't ship any documentation and when you open the help and go to in a topic, instead of getting documentation, you get taken to a web site with suggestions from people on a forum when all you really wanted was the actual documentation from Adobe to find out how something works. Totally frustrating! I tried to learn Premiere at least 3 times in my career and every time it seemed that everything took several steps longer to do in Premiere than it did in Vegas Pro. I hated it and stopped using CS6 and would never subscribe to CC.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 3:26:11 pm

[John Rofrano] "Apple had a section of their web site dedicated to Windows users moving to Mac."

That's because Apple is basically a hardware company that makes software to get you to use their hardware. So yes, they will engage with you to buy a Mac computer, but they won't engage to explain how their software works. The difference with a software company such as Adobe is that the software IS the end product, it is not a give away to get you to buy something else. Or maybe it's just corporate culture, in any event you will find Adobe guys contributing throughout the Cow forums, but all you will get from Apple on these forums is silence.

[John Rofrano] "BTW, I found Adobe's help to be absolutely useless. I have CS6 and they don't ship any documentation and when you open the help and go to in a topic, instead of getting documentation, you get taken to a web site with suggestions from people on a forum when all you really wanted was the actual documentation from Adobe to find out how something works. Totally frustrating!"

Couldn't agree more, their written documentation is both very limited and very hard to find. Their actually is a written PDF manual for Ppro, but it's something of a disorganized mess and they keep it as hidden as the location of Jimmy Hoffa's burial ground.

On the other hand it is possible to make contact directly with Adobe thru people like Dennis Radkeke and Kevin Monahan who monitor these forums and get direct answers about problems you are facing.

Given that you're training has been in an outlier product (not meant disparagingly, just a fact) I can see how the switch to PPro, Avid or even Legacy FCP would be difficult for you. Sounds like X is a perfect fit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 5:13:50 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Given that you're training has been in an outlier product (not meant disparagingly, just a fact) I can see how the switch to PPro, Avid or even Legacy FCP would be difficult for you. Sounds like X is a perfect fit."
If you are implying that because in the past I've selected to use an NLE as unconventional as Vegas Pro rather than more cumbersome and traditional tools, that I would find it easier to use the equally unconventional FCP X then yes, that's probably true. I found that FCP X works quite well for those of us who think outside the box. ;-)

When I've demoed Vegas Pro to Legacy FCP editors at NAB in the Sony booth, their jaws invariably drop in disbelief that editing could be so streamlined and simple. Then when I show them my productivity plug-ins like VASST Ultimate S Pro and Vegas Pro Production Assistant (which I created for Sony), where I can create a photo montage of hundreds of pictures cut to the beat of the music with just a few clicks, or slide a camera card into the computer and have all of the footage automatically ingested and launch Vegas Pro with a project template that populates the timeline replacing media slugs with footage that was just on the card all ready to finish edit, they start to ask how much Vegas Pro costs. If Vegas Pro wasn't tied to Windows, I'm sure I could have made a few conversions. lol

I wish FCP X had a script API like Vegas Pro that would allow me to port my plug-ins over because that's the biggest thing I miss when using FCP X (no automation). I still use Vegas Pro for photo montages because of this.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 5:27:56 pm

[John Rofrano] "I found that FCP X works quite well for those of us who think outside the box. ;-)"

In fairness, I think Herb's "the first thing I do is break sync on everything" approach demonstrates his ability to acknowledge and reject hidden assumptions.


[John Rofrano] "I wish FCP X had a script API like Vegas Pro that would allow me to port my plug-ins over because that's the biggest thing I miss when using FCP X (no automation). I still use Vegas Pro for photo montages because of this."

Yes, I wish every NLE had this! Seeing what the Ae community has done with scripting, and having written a good number of Ae scripts myself, I would love a thoroughly scriptable NLE.

I rather like Windows, so I might have to look into Vegas for some tasks after all...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 4, 2015 at 7:46:39 pm

[Walter Soyka] \"In fairness, I think Herb\'s \"the first thing I do is break sync on everything\" approach demonstrates his ability to acknowledge and reject hidden assumptions.\"
Yea, that was just a little ribbing on my part. ;-) (all in fun)

That brings up a really interesting point though. If Herb breaks sync because we wants to control everything manually, then I understand completely why he would not like FCP X. I actually was drawn to FCP X because it maintains sync of everything, not only with audio and video but with connected clips as well.

So I get it now... the reason I like FCP X us the reason that Herb will never use it. That\'s OK. Everyone has their own workflow that works for them. I respect that.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 5, 2015 at 9:26:21 am

[John Rofrano] "Everyone has their own workflow that works for them. I respect that."

Careful, them's fightin' words in these parts. LOL


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 5, 2015 at 11:33:01 am

[Tim Wilson] "Careful, them's fightin' words in these parts. LOL"
Opps... I almost forgot... being agreeable could get me kicked out of the "debate" forum. I'll try to be more provocative next time. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

tony west
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:00:58 pm

Hi Herb,

I'm with Bret on this, I don't know why he used a gap clip. It works without that.

It's not really something I use personally, I just saw the video last night. I just use the fade handles as I listen to each cut multiple times until it sounds right to me. It only took me like 15 seconds to create it in Motion one time and it's in there for the future.

I just tossed it out there for the discussion.

I do now remember seeing that video for Alex's plugin and forgot about it. It looks cool also.

I don't know how often I will use it. I like doing it manually with the handles : )

Someone in my doc came over and wanted a change to something she said. I cut it out.

She looked at me and said, "wow, you can't even tell" I thought to myself, yeah......that's the point hahaha


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:18:04 pm

I don't know why he used a gap clip. It works without that.

I use a few frames of gap if I am wanting to anchor my music to the beginning of the timeline. Unless it's a music cut thing in which case obviously better to have to on primary storyline.

I agree it's kind of an unnecessary detail for this specific tutorial


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 3, 2015 at 12:59:26 am

[James Ewart] "I use a few frames of gap if I am wanting to anchor my music to the beginning of the timeline."

Exactly. With a trackless timeline, you still have to pick something as an anchor. This would be time in a track-based system, but there is no such thing in X, since clips operate with a parent-child relationship. I will frequently connect music to a gap and then edit all clips as connected clips. I do this because I don't want a clip's approximate length to arbitrarily shift later clips out of position - especially is they need to hit on a certain point in the music. I work this way until I'm happy with the arrangement. Then I overwrite to the primary storyline for further refinement.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Howard Duy Vu
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 6:54:56 pm

I don't see the lack of being able to add the audio dissolve to connected audio as being that major. It's a "nice to have" but it's hardly a deal-breaker. That's because you can get way more precise with manually adjusting the fade handles, and it really only takes a few more clicks.

I know there's certainly a speed advantage to selecting all the audio cuts and pressing a hotkey to instantly add audio dissolves, BUT in reality you will have to listen to every audio cut anyway to hear if they work. So... you'll have listen and adjust anyway, and you have FAR more control with the manual fade handles, with the way you can easily fade to the subframe level. If you're not listening and adjusting each audio cut, well what can I say other than: don't be lazy! This is especially true if you're finishing and mixing the audio in the NLE.

To sum up: it would be nice to have, but the fade handles are superior even though they take a bit more time.



Return to posts index

Brett Sherman
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:30:06 pm

[Howard Duy Vu] "To sum up: it would be nice to have, but the fade handles are superior even though they take a bit more time.
"


Yup. It's fine to say that you don't like the way X handles audio fades, but to suggest it doesn't exist or requires a workaround is completely inaccurate. Fade handles are designed for this exact thing.

Personally I use them only when there is an actual auditory need for them. Rather than just preemptively on everything. But to each their own. If this is a true issue lots of people have, Apple could create a keyboard shortcut that would trim the audio an extra 3 frames, and apply a 3 frame fade. It would do the exact thing some people seem to want.


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 7:40:05 pm

[Howard Duy Vu] "the fade handles are superior"

It should be DAW-style in all NLEs: audio clip collisions create an overlap audio auto-cross-fade.


Return to posts index

Howard Duy Vu
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 9:02:57 pm

Well that's not a bad feature to add, but I would only want it as a toggle because I wouldn't necessarily always want an audio crossfade with every time and audio clip butted up against another one. And still, it doesn't change the fact that even if it added them automatically, you would still have to listen to the cuts and perhaps adjust them anyway.



Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 2, 2015 at 9:41:42 pm

[Howard Duy Vu] "as a toggle"

Exactly! A preference to turn or off.


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 12:19:17 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jan 8, 2015 at 12:23:51 pm

[Richard Herd] "But!! there is no OMF out of X and so there is no good way (I can figure) to get an X timeline into Audition."

I take it you've never heard of X2Pro then?


[Richard Herd] "Why anyone is NOT using Audition boggles the mind."

Hmmm... maybe because they have Logic Pro X (FCPXML import), ProTools or even worst case Soundtrack Pro? All of which can do most if not all the things Audition can (from what I can recall) and then some. I used Audition a while back and found it to be frustratingly convoluted and just an overall visual mess. Yet another classic "dazzle with a 10 page long feature list with complete disregard for usability and stability"-approach from Adobe IMHO.

So, for me, my mind boggles at the thought that someone would actually WANT to use Audition. Horses for courses.


[James Ewart] "The Adobe website has (or had anyway) nice tutorials for those moving across from Apple. Who can imagine Apple ever doing that?"

So I guess you missed books like "Final Cut Pro for Avid Editors" that Apple had made? Even with three revisions. Not to mention the huge aforementioned "Switch to Mac" campaign.




[Herb Sevush] "they will engage with you to buy a Mac computer, but they won't engage to explain how their software works."

Aside from the book above and a loooong list of others just like it on an equally long list of Apple apps, never mind that many splash screens of Apple apps link to a plethora of tutorial videos and their site also has endless information. Not to forget that most people get their tips and tricks from places like YouTube anyway, completely regardless of which company or software we're talking about.

Apple also works very closely with companies such as Ripple btw. So just because they don't splash their name all over every last thing they're actively involved with in some way or another, doesn't mean they're not "engaging". There's a big difference between simply assuming and actually knowing.

But yeah, I too discard entire software packages simply based upon single, small hiccups they may have (I have no idea what is so horrible about the audio-only cross fade solution described, nor how it differs from any other NLE in the end, other than maybe visually), regardless of whether they offer me a boatload of other advantages and features that far overshadow said hiccup(s). Makes sense. Especially since I have so many other 100% flawless NLEs to choose from otherwise, right? :D


[Steve Connor] "Big downsides are that you can't use it if you have existing transitions"

Erm... you realize of course, that every transition already has an audio transition in it? So why exactly would you want or need it to begin with?? ;)


[Oliver Peters] " I will frequently connect music to a gap and then edit all clips as connected clips. I do this because I don't want a clip's approximate length to arbitrarily shift later clips out of position - especially is they need to hit on a certain point in the music."

Which is why, if the music is your *primary* focus, you would clearly put that into the *primary* storyline and simply edit the video as connected clips. Something I do all the time, since that makes the most logical sense in that case. No needless gaps or "anchors" required. That's kind of the whole concept i.e. point behind the storyline paradigm, no?


[Oliver Peters] "I work this way until I'm happy with the arrangement. Then I overwrite to the primary storyline for further refinement."

Another superfluous step imho. If you're (understandably) looking for the magnetic functions for your refinements, simply make everything a *secondary* storyline. But yes, I'll sometimes do it, too, just for visual harmony. :) Just technically speaking I don't consider it to be a necessity.


[Richard Herd] "[Howard Duy Vu] "as a toggle"

Exactly! A preference to turn or off."


I'd say a simple modifier key when dragging would suffice. ;)

- RK


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:05:27 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Erm... you realize of course, that every transition already has an audio transition in it? So why exactly would you want or need it to begin with?? ;)
"


Erm, if you want to add 3 frame transitions to every audio edit, other video transitions are rarely 3 frames


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:26:19 pm

[Steve Connor] "if you want to add 3 frame transitions to every audio edit, other video transitions are rarely 3 frames"

Erm... but then I can't think of when and why I would actually want my video and audio transitions to be a different length. I'd say in extremely rare instances, in which case I can use the handles.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:39:49 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "but then I can't think of when and why I would actually want my video and audio transitions to be a different length. "

Depends on your style of editing I suppose, I rarely have audio transitions at the same length. Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with the way FCP X handles audio, I was just responding to other comments about audio only transitions. Like everything it would be nice to have another option to work with.


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:48:59 pm

[Steve Connor] "Like everything it would be nice to have another option to work with."

Well, as far as that particular issue is concerned, I don't really see how things were that much different in 7 or elsewhere. Since, IIRC, you would have to unlink the audio from a clip to be able to do that in 7 also. Which ultimately puts you pretty much in the same spot as with X, no?

I think it's a given that audio is one of the areas that is bound to see the most changes with the next updates. Aside from the audio-only thing, I'd love for them to e.g. re-tinker the way collapsed L and J-cuts appear visually in the timeline. And of course something along the lines of a roles based mixer. I'm mostly curious and excited to see HOW they end up doing different things, since I find their unconventional (but imho that much better) approach to certain problems and their solutions very intriguing in many cases. :)

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:01:18 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " but then I can't think of when and why I would actually want my video and audio transitions to be a different length."

Really. So if you have, let's say, 2 beautiful slo-mo shots of a skier and you do a 2 second dissolve between those shots, total running time of 20 seconds, and underneath it you have his thoughts as narration constructed out of 4 different audio bites, you would want to have those audio bites connected with 60 frame audio dissolves? Or are you saying IF the audio is connected to the video you would want the audio effect to match the video effect, in which case I give you the case of a 1 second dissolve between 2 scenes where you can hear the director giving the action cue just before the talent speaks in the second clip - do you really want the audio effect to match the video effect right there?

For that matter I can't think of any time I want the length of my audio effect to be determined by the length of a video effect. Those are 2 totally separate aesthetic decisions and connecting them by the happenstance of technology that nowadays attaches the audio to the same bit of media as the video is the reason why I always detach those items as soon as I get past the assembly stage.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:40:31 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Really. So if you have, let's say,…"

Really. You describe a couple of said rare exceptions (that I too have had) that, as I've already said, can easily be remedied with the handles, keyframes or any one of the other various options you have in X. No biggie. No different as with any other NLE. But either way those certainly aren't situations that one encounters constantly, though something tells me you're going to say that they of course are. Probably even daily, of course. :D

And if you're actually constantly detaching the audio, then no, you certainly should not be using X. But rather something else that actually makes sense in the context of that workflow. Which you appear to have found. So I really have to wonder why you're even here in this forum, other than to sing the praises of other/your NLE and continuously proclaim how insufficient and useless FCP X is. At least I have yet to see anything from you. In which case I think if anyone actually cared to hear it, they'd probably be in the respective other forum(s), no? (purely rhetorical question btw)

Oh, and btw: if ”… underneath it you have his thoughts as narration constructed out of 4 different audio bites" as you describe, then those would be completely autonomous and not affected by any VIDEO (or audio) transitions that I applied to the slomos. Are you sure you know how X works? Because I don't see how that scenario is in any way relevant in the context of this audio-only fade topic. As for the other scenario, see above.

- RK


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:45:40 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "So I really have to wonder why you're even here in this forum"
Well... it wouldn't be much of a "debate" forum if we all agreed. :-D

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:52:08 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "You describe a couple of said rare exceptions"

One man's exceptions are another man's daily bread. I will state this again, I can't ever imagine a situation in which I routinely wanted my audio effects to be locked to my video effects. In rare exceptions this might happen, but as a matter of course, it's outside my realm of experience.

[Robin S. Kurz] "And if you're actually constantly detaching the audio, then no, you certainly should not be using X"

Well then, we both came to the same conclusion.

[Robin S. Kurz] " I really have to wonder why you're even here in this forum, other than to sing the praises of other/your NLE and continuously proclaim how insufficient and useless FCP X is"

I need the eggs.

[Robin S. Kurz] " Are you sure you know how X works?"

No, I'm quite sure I don't know exactly how X works, since we've both determined that it doesn't fit my workflow. This part of the thread was part of an explanation of why some editor's decision not to use X might actually be logical as opposed to a genetic disorder.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:19:03 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:43:05 pm

So I really have to wonder why you're even here in this forum, other than to sing the praises of other/your NLE and continuously proclaim how insufficient and useless FCP X is.

Forgive me as I am sure Herb can answer for himself better than I but I think Herb is here to keep his eye on things on the other side of the fence and contribute to the healthy debate.

Wouldn't it be dull and actually useless if all anybody did here was blow smoke up Apple's arse and sing the praises of FCPX (which does have its deficiencies after all).


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:45:25 pm

[James Ewart] "Wouldn't it be dull and actually useless if all anybody did here was blow smoke up Apple's arse and sing the praises of FCPX"

Huh?? Where is anybody doing that? And how do polemic retorts that are merely based on personal bias and not based in any actual experience or knowledge of the topic at hand contribute to any type of constructive discussion?

Spoiler: it doesn't. Some would in fact simply call that "trolling".

But hey, if it does, I'll be sure to subscribe to all the NLE forums that I know nothing about (other than maybe a few screenshots and/or YouTube videos) and tell everyone there what a useless piece of crap they're using. Because, you know, *I* don't need/like/get it. What other measure or "truth" could there be?

Should be fun, no doubt.

- RK


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 5:19:39 pm

It's great to have you back Robin where have you been?

We come here to debate. You come here to point score, put people down, argue and point score some more.

There is nobody on this forum whose contributions are consistently more antagonistic and unhelpful than yours.

I simply don't think you "get" this place.


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:42:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Or are you saying IF the audio is connected to the video you would want the audio effect to match the video effect, in which case I give you the case of a 1 second dissolve between 2 scenes where you can hear the director giving the action cue just before the talent speaks in the second clip - do you really want the audio effect to match the video effect right there?"
Good point. It really depends on WHAT you are cutting. When I'm cutting live events I almost always use cuts only with very few dissolves if any and for those dissolves the audio and video almost always match. When I was working on the PBS series "Painting & Travel with Roger and Sarah Bansemer", the show was largely a demo of painting and long dissolves between angle shots of a particular technique always had the audio dialog disconnected. I get the feeling that in Herb's case, what you see is often not connected to what you hear and so disconnecting video and audio makes sense so that the audio experience, which often requires continuity, is not affected by the video experience which can be temporally different at times on purpose.

Given that, I still have no problem creating audio fades that are different than video fades in FCP X, or L & J cuts for that matter, because the audio handles make this very easy.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 3:49:53 pm

[John Rofrano] "the show was largely a demo of painting and long dissolves between angle shots of a particular technique always had the audio dialog disconnected."

But again, that's not really what we're talking about. That audio won't have come in synched to the video, would it? Once we're talking about disconnected audio—which clearly makes sense in the case you describe—then it's out of the discussion in this context. It's autonomous. And at the same time practically no difference to how any other NLE would deal with it (and it's fades).

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:25:36 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "But again, that's not really what we're talking about. That audio won't have come in synched to the video, would it?"
True. At that point it was more like B-Roll. It's actually a multi-camera edit where we have several cameras at different angles to the the painter and the canvas. Bad example I guess.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:41:03 pm

[John Rofrano] " At that point it was more like B-Roll. It's actually a multi-camera edit where we have several cameras at different angles to the the painter and the canvas. Bad example I guess."

Since I edit primarily multicam, it's not a bad example at all, in the context of this discussion.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:33:22 pm

[John Rofrano] "I get the feeling that in Herb's case, what you see is often not connected to what you hear and so disconnecting video and audio makes sense so that the audio experience, which often requires continuity, is not affected by the video experience which can be temporally different at times on purpose."

Yes.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 4:45:43 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Yes."

No. Because what he describes doesn't apply to the "problem" at hand. As he said, bad (i.e. non-applicable) example, sorry. Multicam is an entirely different subject on its own. Something I'd say X does exponentially better than any other NLE on the market btw. But that, too, is entirely OT.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 5:12:37 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Multicam is an entirely different subject on its own. Something I'd say X does exponentially better than any other NLE on the market btw. But that, too, is entirely OT."

First of all, nothing relating to editing is OT on this thread, or on any thread in this forum. Every couple of months someone wants to change the name of this forum to reflect it's diversity and while I've never subscribed to that notion, the one forum name I would suggest would be The Editor's OT forum.

Second of all, since my livelihood depends on it, I would like to hear you enumerate on those aspects of X that make it "exponentially" better than any other NLE on the market. If true, even if just "slightly" better, it would give me a good reason to try X, which is something I've never had up till now. So please, enlighten me.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 5:24:05 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jan 8, 2015 at 5:25:32 pm

[Herb Sevush] "nothing relating to editing is OT on this thread"

I think maybe you need to differentiate between thread and forum. As far as the latter is concerned I'd most certainly agree.

[Herb Sevush] "So please, enlighten me."

Sure. The trial version is free and there are endless resources on the subject to be had on the interwebs. Not something I need or care to do, thank you. Aside from that being entire OT as far as this thread is concerned, as I said.

If you want to disagree based upon actual knowledge on the subject, that's certainly your prerogative.

- RK


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 5:54:29 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "I think maybe you need to differentiate between thread and forum."

No, the style of this forum is that the thread's are as diverse as the forum, so there is no need to differentiate. Feel free to OT as much as you would like. I certainly do.

[Robin S. Kurz] "The trial version is free and there are endless resources on the subject to be had on the interwebs. Not something I need or care to do, thank you. Aside from that being entire OT as far as this thread is concerned, as I said. If you want to disagree based upon actual knowledge on the subject, that's certainly your prerogative."

I wasn't disagreeing, I was asking for enumeration. I have researched the topic somewhat, and have found no major advantages in either case for X or for Ppro as far as multicam is concerned, but maybe I have missed something. Since you made such an extraordinary case for X I was hoping you might clarify it; the idea of downloading an X trial and spending months only to find out that I had wasted my time was not on my agenda, not with such an expert on multicam as you on this forum. But alas, poor me, you neither "need or care" to back up your statements, so I will have to treat them accordingly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Brett Sherman
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:00:23 pm

[Herb Sevush] "the idea of downloading an X trial and spending months only to find out that I had wasted my time was not on my agenda, "

There's a lot of truth here. Even if X is slightly better in some way the effort to switch is not insignificant. This is why I don't even consider Premiere. I made my call with X, and I still believe it was the right one and believe it's simply the best documentary editor out there. As an institutional editor, I can only switch editing programs maybe every 6 years or so. But even if I wanted to switch to Premiere, it would be more trouble than it would be worth. They are both quite capable programs.

But to the original point I'd say Fade Handles are the tool designed for the job. Superior in precision to transition fades, but inferior in speed. Depends on which you care about more. But I don't see how this particular issue would hardly enter the equation about whether you go with X or Premiere.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:25:26 pm

[Brett Sherman] "But to the original point I'd say Fade Handles are the tool designed for the job. Superior in precision to transition fades, but inferior in speed. Depends on which you care about more. But I don't see how this particular issue would hardly enter the equation about whether you go with X or Premiere."

In my shows there are, I'm guessing, about 200-300 audio edits in the dialogue track. When I'm getting close to completion I select all and place a 3 frame dissolve on each. This takes less time to do then to describe. As I go thru and polish the show I make adjustments on about 10-20% of those dissolves. During that adjustment period fade handles would indeed be faster -- better doesn't come in to it since, as you elsewhere stated, I can get the same results by A/B'ing the audio clips and handling them that way. I am willing to bet that the time I loose on the 20% I more than make up with the time I save on the 80%. You are correct that this is not a make or break feature in terms of NLE selection, but not to acknowledge this inefficiency when it comes to a workflow like mine would be silly.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:09:35 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " The trial version is free and there are endless resources on the subject to be had on the interwebs. Not something I need or care to do, thank you. Aside from that being entire OT as far as this thread is concerned, as I said."

Robin I invite you to join in a specific thread I started about multicam and FCPX. In this thread, this subject will not be OT.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/76770

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Brett Sherman
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:06:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "in which case I give you the case of a 1 second dissolve between 2 scenes where you can hear the director giving the action cue just before the talent speaks in the second clip - do you really want the audio effect to match the video effect right there?"

Wouldn't this be an example where the FCP X method of Fade Handles is actually superior? If you're B shot has the director you fade that half of the edit in quicker and later and do a slower fade on the A shot to avoid a rough audio transition.

For me this example highlights why just throwing a audio fade between two clips is a little imprecise no matter if it's with or separate from the video fade. And with Premiere if you want to do what I outlined above you'd have to move your B shot audio into a different track than the A-shot.


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:31:26 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:33:33 pm

Which is not to say that I don't think there is no need for such functionality btw. It does need it and I'm sure it will get it eventually with one of the next updates. My overall/underlying point is merely that of all things one could come up with for rejecting an entire app and considering it somehow useless overall as some have, that point sure strikes me as highly contrived. That's all. You're of course free to disagree. ;)

- RK


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:18:14 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Which is why, if the music is your *primary* focus, you would clearly put that into the *primary* storyline and simply edit the video as connected clips."
Yea, I don't think people get this concept. The primary storyline is what's driving the story. I agree with Robin, if the music is driving your story, then that's what you should be putting on the primary storyline with everything else as a connected clip. This is a really key concept to understand when working with FCP X.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 2:24:30 pm

[John Rofrano] "Yea, I don't think people get this concept. The primary storyline is what's driving the story. "

Except when it's not. There are a lot of edits where both the music and the clips have equal weight. For example, if you have to edit a music track to fit the picture while also having to interactively change the picture edits. In this case it works best to have both the pictures and the music to be connected clips to a gap, until you get closer to being locked.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Robin S. Kurz
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 3:49:15 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There are a lot of edits where both the music and the clips have equal weight."

Just had that a couple of weeks ago, too, yes. A music video with a long intro and outro. In which case I actually had intro and outro in the primary, but during the musical section I had the music in the primary. Which admittedly made for an unusual edit "feel", but worked great overall. Was able to do things faster, that would have also been and even huger pain elsewhere imho.

Which is not to say that one can't do differently, just I personally found that to be the most efficient and flexible. I personally think it would have been an exponentially greater task doing it the other way around, given the amount of revisions I had to deal with, knowing no matter what I did to the music section *nothing* would go out of sync, as well as everywhere else. Best of both worlds, it was brilliant. In fact I got a taste of the opposite after I overwrote the video to the timeline and moved the music, as you described... and a last few, unexpected changes came in. What a difference.

Just sayin'. In the end: to each his own.

- RK


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 1:51:33 pm

[Richard Herd] "It should be DAW-style in all NLEs: audio clip collisions create an overlap audio auto-cross-fade."

As long as it can be turned off in preferences somewhere. I want to do those manually, not have the system do it for me.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 9:55:15 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "certainly aren't situations that one encounters constantly, though something tells me you're going to say that they of course are. Probably even daily, of course. :D"

Don't be like that. That's simply out of line. If Herb tells you he does it every day, on every edit, he does. Period. Debating him on what he does, or accusing him of stretching the truth to make a point is simply inappropriate.

Among the many points of this forum is for people to discuss workflows. That requires listening, and accepting alternate points of view. FCPX is simply NOT the best NLE for every person and every project, no matter how much some enthusiasts are trying to argue the point.

And I say this as the first and most enthusiastic of the earlier enthusiasts. I just also believe that it's ridiculous to try to shoehorn every workflow into it. I've also been one of the most enthusiastic endorsers of Adobe Premiere, and have been since it was my own first NLE in 1994.

(Now THAT was some hard work, y'all. LOL However, I've loved it since Premiere Pro was introduced in 2003, and I think Mac users have no idea just how powerful it was with hardware like Matrox Digisuite.I'm pretty sure there's still nothing like it on the Mac side.

And hey, does anybody else here remember pre-SpiceRack Michael Feerer's book, Premiere 4 With a Passion back in 95? Epic.)

Anyway, in no case is it appropriate to suggest that somebody is saying something untrue to make a point, solely because it doesn't apply to you. If everyone had the same problems, and could work with the same solutions, those of us at the COW would need to look for other jobs. It's a complicated world, and that complexity deserves out utmost and dearest respect.

Throwing in a smilie and some variation of "different strokes for different folks" at the end of a post that argues the contrary is disengenuous. It's frankly beneath you. Speak your piece, honestly and directly, and assume that other people are doing the same.

I mention this about Herb in particular. One reason that "the usual suspects" are in this forum even though they may not use FCPX is because they've been in Creative COW for YEARS. You know when Herb joined Creative COW? The day we opened in 2001. Account #248. We're coming up on 300,000 now.

Herb was also an active part of our previous community, which celebrates its 20th anniversary this spring.

That doesn't NECESSARILY give him any more authority than you or anyone else. We rely on new members such as yourself to stay alive, Robin. Everyone is an expert on something that nobody else is. But for speaking about his WORK, Herb is the ONLY authority.

Herb has also seen the work of people here for many years, and they have earned his trust over decades as his peers. Who else would he possibly be talking to about these issue? Nobody. THIS is where this discussion belongs, and it's where Herb belongs talking about it.

I apologize to Herb for shining a spotlight on him that he might not appreciate, but you newer folks would do well to look at the profiles of other people you're talking to, so you know what you're talking about.

Finally, Herb is one of these mythical dinosaurs who has in fact changed NLEs (and linear systems) far more times than the younger members here. He has done this under live fire on one of America's most prestigious television networks, on one of their flagship shows.

It might be interesting ON A NEW THREAD to take a look at the specifics of Herb's Adobe Premiere Pro workflow for tight-turnaround multicam TV production. Having changed NLEs as many times as he has, I know that Herb is open to changing again. He simply asked you specifically how FCPX could improve what he does. Fair question I think.


Fair question for another thread. :-) So maybe start with his article, and start a new thread to suggest benefits that FCPX offers that would improve upon his Premiere Pro workflow. I find specifics to be very helpful.


Cooking With Premiere Pro CC on PBS's America's Test Kitchen

Best regards,

Tim Wilson, Ex Cathedra
Creative COW

(Not the infallible part, just the part about speaking in my official capacity as an officer of the organization)


Return to posts index

Scott Witthaus
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 8, 2015 at 11:39:20 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Don't be like that. That's simply out of line."

I have a problem with this post. I can't quite get it yet, but certainly something is not right. Picking out one person, no matter how long they have been on this forum, and calling them out, is out of line. There are plenty of "sharp personalities" (myself included, probably Herb too) on this list. I don't feel it's right to pick out one. Robin is certainly one of those "sharp personalities" but he is also one of the smartest X person I have encountered. And after all, this is a forum about FCPX, right? If you want to moderate a post, fine. But using several paragraphs to call one person out is wrong. The readers of the forum will decide who to believe or not.

Ok, I'll get off my liberal soap-box now. Carry on.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 1:54:26 am

I'll accept your criticism, and extend my apology for over-responding to Robin.

Where I failed was in not crisply stopping my admonition to Robin in particular at the end of the first paragraph, and picking it up again at the end.

For the rest, separated from Robin as you completely rightly point out, I completely stand by it. Calling people's motives into question, and whether or not they belong here is a step back in time to three years ago or more. Coming up on 4 actually. Not good.

And I do in general see more of people (again not meaning to single out Robin) being adamant that only FCPX is the best choice for every workflow, and waving a hand over "unless you need After Effects or movies," but even that level of nuance is fading over time.

Which is fine. I'm nearing the time when I'll have been out of the game longer than I was in it. Every single person here is more of an expert on applications and workflows than me. I imagine this to be the case until the end of my career, and quickly accelerating. Maybe FCPX actually IS the best choice for every task.

Yet, with apologies again to Robin and the group, my basic points stand.

-- Accusations of rhetorical exaggeration are off limits. Your "edge case" may be somebody else's life blood. Especially in cases where Legend DID fulfill those needs, this becomes part of the complexity that we have to protect, administratively and as a community.

-- Orthodoxy tests (you must use FCPX and like it) are off limits.

-- Look before you leap. Experts are everywhere in Creative COW, and I would certainly include Robin among them. But people are often here because they've spent a decade or two building the thing.

--When somebody asks for specifics, we all save a lot of time by jumping ahead to those specifics, rather than saying the equivalent of "you're holding it wrong."

I always appreciate being called on my own faulty stewardship as well.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 7:54:52 am

[Tim Wilson] "For the rest, separated from Robin as you completely rightly point out, I completely stand by it. Calling people's motives into question, and whether or not they belong here is a step back in time to three years ago or more. Coming up on 4 actually. Not good"

and you're right to call it out when it happens

[Tim Wilson] " Maybe FCPX actually IS the best choice for every task.
"


It's not, it's a developing piece of software that still has some growing to to do, but it IS remarkably good for MANY workflows.

I'm an FCPX user, have been since it first arrived, it's my primary NLE, I've used as much as anyone on here and I enjoy using it a lot, but even I still get called out by some of the more evangelical users on here when I suggest there are some deficiencies with it.


Return to posts index

James Ewart
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 9:55:44 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Jan 9, 2015 at 11:28:17 am

[Tim Wilson] " Maybe FCPX actually IS the best choice for every task.

I would dearly love to spend a day with Herb showing how brilliant FCPX Multicam is. Other than that I cannot help persuade him because I have never used Adobe PP in Multicam mode - my only previous Multicam experience was FCP 'Legend' (as it now seems to be called). My opinion is therefore of limited value to anyone using PP.

But if one makes a claim like "Something I'd say X does exponentially better than any other NLE on the market btw". It is bold indeed.

One needs to be able to substantiate this claim in some way (albeit subjective) if it going to have any credibility or value to the rest of us on the forum who are here to learn and occasionally share any snippets of wisdom of our own.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 12:41:16 pm

[James Ewart] "I would dearly love to spend a day with Herb showing how brilliant FCPX Multicam is. Other than that I cannot help persuade him because I have never used Adobe PP in Multicam mode - my only previous Multicam experience was FCP 'Legend' (as it now seems to be called). My opinion is therefore of limited value to anyone using PP.

But if one makes a claim like "Something I'd say X does exponentially better than any other NLE on the market btw". It is bold indeed.

One needs to be able to substantiate this claim in some way (albeit subjective) if it going to have any credibility or value to the rest of us on the forum who are here to learn and occasionally share any snippets of wisdom of our own.
"


I've used multicam on both, but only picture cuts in relatively simple conference and music videos, while I prefer the FCPX implementation, they are both relatively similar and I wouldn't say FCPX was "exponentially" better. Can't speak for edits with more complex audio though.


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:06:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "I've used multicam on both, but only picture cuts in relatively simple conference and music videos, while I prefer the FCPX implementation, they are both relatively similar and I wouldn't say FCPX was "exponentially" better. Can't speak for edits with more complex audio though."

[Steve Connor] "I've used multicam on both, but only picture cuts in relatively simple conference and music videos, while I prefer the FCPX implementation, they are both relatively similar"

Steve, I invite you to a thread I just started to further this discussion.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/76770

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Audio Only cross fade in X
on Jan 9, 2015 at 2:05:18 pm

[James Ewart] "I would dearly love to spend a day with Herb showing how brilliant FCPX Multicam is."

James, I invite you to a thread I just started to do precisely that.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/76770

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]