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Craig Seeman
RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 5:43:55 am

RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
http://www.redsharknews.com/post/item/2160-opinion-which-are-the-best-nles-...

Can an article be both fluffy and provocative?

He clearly likes and is comfortable with Premiere Pro

Moving to Premiere Pro CC was a no-brainer for me, as that's where most of my clients went. They wanted things cut faster, preferably on the edge of set, and didn't want to wait around while I transcoded things. The move from FCP7 to Premiere Pro CC was seamless.

but seems very interested in FCPX

Moving forward, for my money, the most interesting piece of software out there is Final Cut Pro X. Pretty much anyone who is doing something interesting or innovative is doing it in connection with FCPX.

But for now, the most interesting place to be, seems to be with FCPX. It's also the platform potential clients are asking if I know.

and Avid?

I found things clunky and uncustomizable. The entire process was just outdated and entrenched in a mindset of "this is our way of doing things," get on or get out. Yes, there were moments of magic – the trimming tools are somehow better than anyone else's – but the transition to Avid felt like a step backward, especially in terms of workflow simplicity, rather than a step towards the cutting edge.



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Tim Wilson
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 5:51:22 am

[Craig Seeman] "Can an article be both fluffy and provocative?
"


The answer is apparently, yes, an article can be both fluffy and provocative. LOL

So, provocatively, what's your take on this? Not just your take on his take, but your thinking on the big picture?


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 6:53:57 am

[Tim Wilson] "So, provocatively, what's your take on this? Not just your take on his take, but your thinking on the big picture?"

Everyone always expects the unexpected from Apple and FCPX. Even PPro users, finding it a comfortable (and impressive) progression from Legacy, are eyeing FCPX, not because it's "the best" but the most innovative (not every risk is a success though).

The past year Apple FCPX has been focused on "professional" (broadcast) improvements with Library rethinking and MXF support. Many FCPX users may even be frustrated, for the time being, at Apple's pragmatic approach of the last year. This probably has given some none FCPXers time to play with it without feeling they're being hit with "feature innovation" onslaught. I think people are expecting a few rounds of feature improvements along with more innovation in the coming year though.

Adobe PPro has been adding new features at a somewhat consistent and relatively fast pace. Not the "radical" features that Apple is capable of though. In fact when "radical" Adobe feature, speech recognition, didn't progress, they dropped it.

What is clear to me is that there's two very divergent company development philosophies. Adobe the progressive and Apple the risk taking radical.

Big picture.
Adobe PPro grows fastest but Apple's FCPX inroads will quicken.
In the next major update Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve will develop into a more reasonable NLE. Plugin developers are quickly adding support.
Avid MC will remain in its niche and as the other NLEs progress, will see more erosion outside of its niche. Avid will refocus on making that niche more profitable though.

Ultimately, Apple's exciting to watch because, sometimes, despite some faltering, they do innovate.



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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 2:27:47 pm

[Tim Wilson] "So, provocatively, what's your take on this?"

Seriously? Again? Oi! ;-)

One guy's opinion and one guy only. YMMV.

sw

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Allen Len
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 8, 2015 at 9:54:54 am

http://www.sunper.net


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David Mathis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 6:50:36 am

My take:


I am going to rank FCP X and Premiere Pro in a very tight spot for first place.

Premiere and tight integration between other Adobe products is no doubt the strong point. All of this followed by more innovation, which has sense accelerated since the subscription only model. Downside for some is the ongoing cost and no off ramp. For those relying on high-end motion graphics work After Effects is another valuable tool in the set.

On the Final Cut side of things, X is a joy to work with. Magnetic timeline (once you understand the philosophy), ability to create custom stuff in Motion, and the excellent organizing capabilities. Downside is trimming, no keyframing for color correction, and the lack of "Send To Motion" command. The ability to create custom titles, generators, effects and transitions in Motion does is a bonus. So is the workflow to and from Resolve.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 2:42:17 pm

I thought the most interesting quote in that article was:
"To wrap up FCP7, on the other hand (aside from legacy editing), it's like an old friend you catch up with every six months or so, but sooner or later you'll never see again."
Because that is the real question: "What are all those FCP 7 editors going to do?" Why after 3 years from it's demise FCP 7 is still being used? Where are they ultimately going to go? and did the FCP 7 users that moved to Premiere Pro simply do so because it was more familiar to their old "legacy" way of thinking? (which means they didn't move forward, they simply moved sideways)

Moving to FCP X requires rethinking what an NLE can be. Editors who resist the magnetic timeline need to rethink about what they are doing when they edit. They are telling a story where events happen in a particular order and these events have corresponding things that all happen together (e.g., a video clip with a video overlay, and a sound effect with music accompaniment) and when you move the video to alter the story, the fact that the sound fx and music and overlays and whatever else is associated with it moves with it is pure genius. Why would it work any other way?

That's what an NLE "should" do (i.e., help you tell the story and not get in the way) but FCP 7 editors seemed burdened by their past habits. What's a track? There are no "tracks" in real life. Why would video software introduce tracks? It doesn't make sense. It was a poor paradigm that editors had to learn and now can't unlearn. Having a primary storyline to tell a story with connected clips to keep everything together seems so natural to me now. Why would I want to work any other way? That's Apple keeping it "simple".

The best NLE is one that doesn't get in the way. The best NLE is the one that frees you to tell the story without thinking about the mechanics of editing. The best NLE is not necessarily the one that works the way that you do because you may not be working as efficiently as you could be and the best NLE would change that and make you more efficient... but you must be willing to change your "legacy" ways. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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David Mathis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 3:56:04 pm

[John Rofrano] "
The best NLE is one that doesn't get in the way. The best NLE is the one that frees you to tell the story without thinking about the mechanics of editing. The best NLE is not necessarily the one that works the way that you do because you may not be working as efficiently as you could be and the best NLE would change that and make you more efficient... but you must be willing to change your "legacy" ways. ;-)

~jr"


As the saying goes, "Old habits die hard." Which is exactly the boat I was in at the start. After watching a few videos it began to make perfect sense. Freedom at last, just need to change the way of approaching certain tasks. Connected clips are good but can be disabled when needed.

Organizing is much better then the traditional bins, though the latter does have its advantages. On the flip side of the coin, keywords, collections, and events are a much more logical approach.

Bottom line is very simple, FCP X makes editing fun again as it should be.


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Jim Wiseman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 7:24:20 pm

Really the only reason I'm using FCP 7 still is it's excellent tape input support. I have over 30 years of archives to deal with. From there I move the ProRes to FCPX or even Media 100 2.1.5 (much less so now) Bought CS4-CS6 Production Premium before the CC bomb and used and liked it. However, Creative Cloud rental is not in my future.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.4, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Blackmagic Teranex, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 10:02:10 pm

The tone of the article was interesting in that the author seemed to like FCPX because it has the least developed workflow. By that I mean if you are using FCP X for a Hollywood feature film, for example, you are figuring out a lot of thing as you go where is if you are using Avid MC on a Hollywood feature film you've got a couple decades worth of knowledge to pull from. Avid MC is "less interesting" because it is so well known. That's more of a gear head perspective than an enduser perspective, IMO. Not that one is better than the other, just an observation (and if I had to label myself one or the other I would put myself in the gear head category).

[John Rofrano] "Because that is the real question: "What are all those FCP 7 editors going to do?" Why after 3 years from it's demise FCP 7 is still being used?

Once place I used to work at is still FCP 7 because it gets the job done for them and the investment to switch to another NLE is nothing to sneeze at (both in terms of human assets and gear). A place my buddy works at is still on FCP 7 because they run custom software that allows their DAM to work hand in hand with FCP 7. The switch from FCP 6 to 7 required rewriting of the custom software so switching to something completely different is no small task. A mom and pop sized shop I do work for occasionally is still on FCP 7 because they've hammered out workflow that works for them and the talent pool for FCP and Avid editors is way, way deeper in LA than the talent pool for people that know X or PPro.


[John Rofrano] "The best NLE is one that doesn't get in the way. The best NLE is the one that frees you to tell the story without thinking about the mechanics of editing. The best NLE is not necessarily the one that works the way that you do because you may not be working as efficiently as you could be and the best NLE would change that and make you more efficient... but you must be willing to change your "legacy" ways. ;-)"

Ah, it's been a few weeks since a nice "Pick the best NLE for you... which should obviously be FCP X" type post. ;)


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 1:45:25 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "A place my buddy works at is still on FCP 7 because they run custom software that allows their DAM to work hand in hand with FCP 7. The switch from FCP 6 to 7 required rewriting of the custom software so switching to something completely different is no small task."
I keep forgetting that people have production pipelines built around specific versions of software and it is almost impossible to change. I don't work in that world so as an independent editor I often forget about it. Good point!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 10:22:44 pm

[John Rofrano] " Editors who resist the magnetic timeline need to rethink about what they are doing when they edit."

Actually, it's quite the reverse. Editors who resist the magnetic timeline don't have to rethink what they are doing, which is half the story.

[John Rofrano] "They are telling a story where events happen in a particular order and these events have corresponding things that all happen together (e.g., a video clip with a video overlay, and a sound effect with music accompaniment) and when you move the video to alter the story, the fact that the sound fx and music and overlays and whatever else is associated with it moves with it is pure genius. Why would it work any other way?"

Why indeed. Which is why all NLE's can accomplish this quite easily, or we would all still be cutting film. However some editors like the freedom of choosing exactly what elements they wish to move and where precisely they are going to end up, all without any encumbrances, even if it takes a few more keystrokes. Which is why I always cut with my audio unattached to my video, even if they were recorded together. Other editors are troubled by such freedoms, which require worrying about things like sync, and are thrilled that they can have their hands held as they move their locked-together media around the timeline. This forum has shown nothing if it hasn't shown the enormous range of editing workflows that are employed by various editors; and one editor's "genius" is the next editor's "WTF".

and that's the other half of the story.

[John Rofrano] " What's a track? There are no "tracks" in real life."

I live right next to a railroad, and believe me there are tracks in real life.

[John Rofrano] "Why would video software introduce tracks? It doesn't make sense."

If you had ever edited film and used a syncronizer, you would understand where the paradigm of "tracks" came from.

[John Rofrano] "Having a primary storyline to tell a story with connected clips to keep everything together seems so natural to me now. Why would I want to work any other way?"

I give up - why would you?

I know why I would though, and that keeps me working with almost anything other than X, despite it's many virtues. The paradigm of a "primary storyline" is much crazier to me than the paradigm of "tracks." But YMMV -- and it obviously does.

[John Rofrano] "you may not be working as efficiently as you could be and the best NLE would change that and make you more efficient... but you must be willing to change your "legacy" ways."

My ways were formed before Legacy was a gleam in Randy Ubillos's eye. Editor's have been editing moving pictures for over a hundred years and the least significant difference between all of them is their choice of tools.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 10:42:03 pm

[John Rofrano] " What's a track? There are no "tracks" in real life."

When audio DAWs were being created (last century) I was invited to a meeting at Fairlight where they unveiled their first attempt at a DAW following on from their CMI (Computer Musical Instrument). Asked for an opinion on the screen layout I asked why the tracks were horizontal not vertical which is how dubbing charts had laid out tracks to match the layout of a mixing desk. Their answer was simple, it was based on musical notation which was horizontal. So if you are looking for tracks in real life then the overwhelming paradigm that we have been working with is the track based layout of musical notation.

Imagine the chaos if notation was not track based but randomly assigned. The reason many of us are happy with tracks is the organizational layout that helps humans with pattern recognition rather than seeing the world as a computer does. Recent developments in how computers recognize visual patterns has revealed that they can easily be fooled unlike a human so the real question should not be why tracks are a problem but why NLEs have always taken a primitive overwrite paradigm to tracks rendering them problematic.

There are other ways to make track based NLEs much smarter without throwing away the organizational strengths that a track based system gives. The retrofitting of Roles showed that a totally unrelated trackless system had serious limitations. Everytime I swap from Fairlight to FCP7 or Pr or Resolve I am frustrated by their poor use of tracks. This however should be an argument about why have tracks been so poorly implemented in NLEs. Throwing tracks away is an improvement for some but I think it appeals to editors who have never had a system that utilized the power of proper track implementation.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 27, 2014 at 11:34:13 pm

[John Rofrano] " What's a track? There are no "tracks" in real life."

Actually John, it might be easier to ask where in life there aren't tracks. I see tracks everywhere from roads to the worn paths across the paddock that the cows make to the watering trough. The way cutlery is organised in a drawer. The hanging space in a cupboard. The pattern of flower petals. The Xylem that deliver nutrients in a tree. The veins and arteries in a body. The passage of planets around the sun. The lattice patterns of crystals. The way we organise the written word on a page.

You are only able to make and read comments about a trackless NLE because of the way the word is organised in tracks. In some countries that can be done vertically or right to left but it is track based or you couldn't read it.

Can you give examples of totally trackless systems?? When I look at the world I mostly see tracks.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:18:50 am
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:25:00 am

[Michael Gissing] "Can you give examples of totally trackless systems??"
A Painting. There is a brush, and paint, and a canvas, and an idea in your mind's eye, and no tracks! I guess tracks on a painting would equate to painting within the lines which I despise.

A "real" Photo Montage. There are picture scattered everywhere on your desk or floor. You move them around, group them, mix them and match them, decide which ones you like and which ones you don't. In the end you arrange them in interesting ways at various angles that capture your eye and perhaps tell a story. No tracks.

Pottery. There is clay and your hands and an idea, and a potters wheel, and no tracks. Some times video editing is like modeling clay. Throw it on the storyline and see what sticks. Trim it here, lengthen it there. Very organic. FCP X makes it very easy to work this way. That's one of the reason's why I like it.

So if tracks are everywhere and roads are tracks then FCP X is my 4x4 for off-roading where... there are no tracks. (for everyone else there is always the highway which... is a track) lol ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:29:24 am

[David Mathis] "I am going to rank FCP X and Premiere Pro in a very tight spot for first place."

Let's just be sure we are taking about innovation and not market penetration. Because by definition it can't be the latter, since even in the world of film and video editors, it's not exclusively Mac. Obviously X is limited to Mac OS, whereas all of the competition is cross-platform or PC-only.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:33:53 am

[John Rofrano] "Because that is the real question: "What are all those FCP 7 editors going to do?" Why after 3 years from it's demise FCP 7 is still being used? "

The reason is that none of the options completely fill the needs as well as FCP 4-7/FC Studio for many customers. Apple really ended up in a nice sweet spot with this product and replacing it is still hard.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rich Rubasch
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:06:50 am

Haven't seen much of an argument for hardware. We have stuck with FCP7 because of our workflow and hardware. We upload media to Edit system X and on Edit system Y I simply point my scratch disc to System X and cut away. We edit over a closed Gigabit network 1080 ProRes. Has been working for years this way and it keeps our 5 edit systems humming no matter where the media is in our systems. We do not use external RAIDs. Rather each MacPro Tower has 8 terabytes of internal RAID storage across four drives. We have updated our video cards, RAM and PCI SSD startup drive to the bleeding edge of performance on these machines.

So our hardware and workflow, along with legacy projects that we refer back to a lot keep us anchored in FCP7.

We do use Photoshop and AfterEffects so I have two seats of CC 2014 and all seats have CS6.

Don't love Premier's media management and clunky project/sequence settings, and FCPX is just too scary a jump from the workflow we have working currently, for the past 10 years....

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:16:55 am

[Rich] "Haven't seen much of an argument for hardware."

It was in fact hardware that was a great reason why I looked to a system that was cross platform. It made much more sense to me to build a PC with graphics grunt and PCIe slots to use existing hardware cards like Decklink. The Mac hardware to me requires a cost premium and a junking of a lot of existing hardware like monitors, recabling for thunderbolt, problems with integrating into a rack mount system etc.

So a PC running CS6 and Resolve was the best upgrade path for my work.


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Mitch Ives
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 3:19:52 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The reason is that none of the options completely fill the needs as well as FCP 4-7/FC Studio for many customers. Apple really ended up in a nice sweet spot with this product and replacing it is still hard."

True enough. I use X, but I'm still pining for some things I had before. This week I have to go back to 7 so I can get some deck control and bring in some corrupted clips from tape again.

Message to Apple: I have to keep this old Mac Pro around with an old OS so I can run FCP 7... otherwise I could buy another new machine... just saying...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 4:10:27 pm

Both AJA and Blackmagic have deck control apps. You can even send clips from AJA Control Room to an X Event.

While it's not direct tape capture, it's close. You can then use the same software to assemble/insert to tape.


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TImothy Auld
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Feb 5, 2015 at 10:37:04 pm

True. And in the freelance world I encounter non mac OS's far more than Mac - without designating a favored NLE (Avid.)

Tim


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:09:21 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:10:11 am

John, in those examples you are making an object. Editing is taking a bunch of objects and creating almost always a linear storyline. To arrange a sequence of objects even FCPX has a series of tracks to arrange them in a standard left to right display.

So if you wish to work in a totally free form way you will want a system unlike FCPX which has largely conventional video & audio tracks. It really is an illusion to think it has no tracks, as it is more a way of dynamic track arrangement to avoid overwriting. A node based system is less possibly track like than FCPX.

I can't imagine any linear story compositor that won't have at least a left to right track pattern.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 2:10:41 pm

[Michael Gissing] "To arrange a sequence of objects even FCPX has a series of tracks to arrange them in a standard left to right display. "
Yes, but I can move a scene in the story around and all of the connected clips dynamically move out of each other's way instead of overlapping each other as they would with tacks and having me sort out the problem. That is what I love about FCP X. I don't have to manage tracks even though you could argue that there are "imaginary" tracks because of how the clips line up.
[Michael Gissing] "It really is an illusion to think it has no tracks, as it is more a way of dynamic track arrangement to avoid overwriting. A node based system is less possibly track like than FCPX."
Yes, it's more like a node based system. It's very liberating for me. That's why I like it. I don't have to add a track before I add another clip. I just add the clip and I'm done. The fact that many clips in a row may simulate a track is the illusion. I could move something and they all scatter to make room for it breaking the illusion of a track which 'must" exist in a particular place.
[Michael Gissing] "I can't imagine any linear story compositor that won't have at least a left to right track pattern."
Agreed. That's the "storyline" and it's a linear progression. It's just all of the ancillary things that I like having "connected" instead of simply lying on some track waiting to be out of sync if anything moves and requiring my attention to keep it all in sync. That's what I object to having to do.

When I demonstrate FCP X to my peers that are still using track based PC NLE's and I set up a clip of an interview with a lower third and some intro music and I change my mind about it's placement and I move it later in the story and all of the connected clips come with it and other clips move out of the way to make room for it, their jaw's inevitably drop and they ask me, "how much does a Mac cost?". lol

The magnetic timeline is very liberating me. I realize that not everyone works like this and some people want full control. I get it... it's just not for me. I want the computer to do as much work for me as possible so that I can concentrate on higher order things.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:49:57 pm

[Michael Gissing] "The retrofitting of Roles showed that a totally unrelated trackless system had serious limitations."

There was no "retrofitting" Roles, like a lot of other features, just weren't implemented when X first came out. You think thy added multi-cam as an afterthought too?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 10:32:27 pm

[Charlie Austin] "There was no "retrofitting" Roles, like a lot of other features, just weren't implemented when X first came out. You think thy added multi-cam as an afterthought too?"

No - multicam was something that would have been intended as it is such a basic feature and something that Legend had, but was not ready when they released the software. Roles however were not talked about as being a basic part of the mag timeline when the software was released. I honestly think they were a retrofit. It is false logic to think that if there was one software module intended but left out that everything they have added since was intentional.

But good on them for adding Roles. If you know for sure that roles were there from the start but not implemented then by all means enlighten me.


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 10:54:32 pm

[Michael Gissing] "If you know for sure that roles were there from the start but not implemented then by all means enlighten me."

In the first release there was a pulldown with the initial Roles designation included. They didn't do anything but they were there. Sorry but I can't prove sans screenshot from X 10.0.0 but I certainly saw them and suspected their utility would be added in the future.

BTW there's other metadata stuff in there which don't seem to be implemented yet. I believe EXIF info is one example of that.



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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 11:04:35 pm

[Craig Seeman] "In the first release there was a pulldown with the initial Roles designation included. They didn't do anything but they were there. Sorry but I can't prove sans screenshot from X 10.0.0 but I certainly saw them and suspected their utility would be added in the future."

OK happy to stand corrected on that.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 1:42:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "However some editors like the freedom of choosing exactly what elements they wish to move and where precisely they are going to end up, all without any encumbrances, even if it takes a few more keystrokes."
One man's "freedom" is another man's "shackles". I hate having to handle the insignificant details. I'd rather have the computer handle that for me. But as you go on to say, YMMV and it does. ;-)
[Herb Sevush] "I live right next to a railroad, and believe me there are tracks in real life. "
I was referring to "tracks" in the process of editing video. I realize that "tracks" do exist in real life. Sorry for not being more precise.
[Herb Sevush] "If you had ever edited film and used a syncronizer, you would understand where the paradigm of "tracks" came from."
I never edited film so perhaps there is a corollary that I'm missing.

I understand that "bins" are real life containers where you place film strips so I understood that one. BUT here is my point:

If word processors were designed to work like typewriters, they would beep when we hit 72 characters and force us to hit the Return key when we reached 80! Because in "real life" the concept of "word wrap" doesn't exist! But that is a limiting design because on a computer we do have word wrap and don't need to hit return at the end of every line.

I was trying to make the same analogy with video editing. Just because we used bins with film doesn't mean that we should continue to do so. A physical piece of film can only be in one place at a time and thus only in one bin. But on the computer, I can use metadata to make clips appear in any number of collections. That is a far superior way to work IMHO. So I'm just proposing that we open our minds to the possibilities.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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David Mathis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 2:58:20 pm

John,

I totally agree with you. Started playing around with the editing tools in Resolve and it felt kind of weird. Something familiar yet "odd" at the same time -- tracks! Patching tracks, clip collision, something going out of synch, all of which is why I prefer to the FCP X way of doing things. I can focus on telling a story rather then spend time on the logic of mechanics. With that said, I do believe that one should, rather, must learn the mechanics of editing. They will have a sense of what is going on in the background and why. This will make the editor more efficient and effective. In addition, it will make them more appreciative of how things have progressed since the age of the cave man and the invention of the wheel.

Organizing is also much better. Keywords, collections and events are a much more logical approach. Pretty sure that Spock will agree with this one! Much faster and efficient of finding things, less time wasted as opposed to the traditional bin approach.

This approach might not be for everyone but at least something to consider. I am glad I made the switch, editing is fun again!


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:28:53 pm

I'm a big fan of FCPX, been using it since the beginning and it's almost always my first choice for projects, however I absolutely do NOT buy in to the idea that tracks in NLEs "get in the way" of storytelling or the editing process in general, it's just a different way of working.


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:59:42 pm

[Steve Connor] "I absolutely do NOT buy in to the idea that tracks in NLEs "get in the way" of storytelling or the editing process in general, it's just a different way of working."

With you 100%. X isn't really a "new paradigm". You still edit just like you always have. Source I/O, cut into sequence, repeat. It's just different. I like the difference, some don't.

People who mock FCP X as "dumbed down" are just as ridiculous as the people who imply editors that don't like X are "dinosaurs".

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 9:38:13 pm

[Charlie Austin] "People who mock FCP X as "dumbed down" are just as ridiculous as the people who imply editors that don't like X are "dinosaurs"."

Just to keep the record clear, I don't remember anyone on the pro-X side ever actually calling those who don't like it "dinosaurs."

I think the term came up when folks on the anti-FCP X side expressed that they FELT that those arguing in Xs favor were treating them "as if" they were dinosaurs - a subtle but very important distinction.

Truth is, that writing that someone just doesn't "get" about a thing - is often taken as shorthand implying that they're not smart enough to do so. However, the truth is that the smartest people on the planet are prone to not "get" things that they haven't looked at particularly closely. And in that context, it's a very benign assertion. Even if the words themselves are taken really badly by the receiver.

Such was often the first couple of years here. And so it goes.

Happy Holidays and a Prosperous New Years to all my fellow "or Not" long timers!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 1:37:02 am

[Bill Davis] "Just to keep the record clear, I don't remember anyone on the pro-X side ever actually calling those who don't like it "dinosaurs.""

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10927

"there is no room for the old farts that are set in their ways..they are the dinosaurs of the post industry...period!"

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 5:03:44 am

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "Just to keep the record clear, I don't remember anyone on the pro-X side ever actually calling those who don't like it "dinosaurs.""

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10927

"there is no room for the old farts that are set in their ways..they are the dinosaurs of the post industry...period!""


I did a post on this. I looked for dinosaur, not dinosaurs. I missed this post. This is my fault. I have more work to do.


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Tim Wilson
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 5:43:33 am

Aside from this particular quote, the idea is quite common. "Dinosaur" has become shorthand for the idea that all modern, forward-thinking editors will choose FCPX, and the only people who choose other NLEs, or stick with their old NLEs, are ones with outdated workflows that need refreshing.

It's an interesting flip from the early days of the forum, where the default position was very much a version of the opposite -- X's necessarily niche-y role, to the extent that it was viable at all, and it mostly wasn't. Certainly the first shifts were courtesy of specific updates from Apple to address early shortcomings or to finish baking features that were originally half-baked at best.

But I'm not aware of anyone who said, "Wow, this is exactly the way I've always wanted to work. Finally I can overcome the rewiring I had to do in order to use other NLEs. THIS is how MY mind has always worked." The biggest shift in attitude came as people DID rewire themselves, and found it good.

That's why it's always worthwhile to revisit this topic. There are people on this very thread who'd never tried either X or Premiere Pro this time last year -- maybe even last summer. Others have tried both in the past year, or have deepened their skills in both in meaningful ways,and can for the first time provide insight based on experience with the latest versions of each.

As long as people are wrapping their heads around X for the first time, or keep adding another tool to the bag, or TRYING to, or giving up on X or WHATEVER, the conversation stays alive. It's always worth taking the temperature of the room. It changes.

I was also intrigued by the RedShark guy's experience that what he'd prefer to use and what the client prefers are different, but that he's okay with both. The fact is that the FCP community was the most mono-cultural group in the COW, with the possible exception of the Vegas folks...but now, heritage FCP-ers are more likely than anyone to be thoroughly fluent in more than one NLE, with fluency in all 3 major A companies quite common. Simply unprecedented, anywhere in the COW, and I'd wager anywhere in the industry. Virtually nobody used to say, "You need to know 'em all." Quite the contrary.

And now, there's nowhere more likely to hear some similar statement than here...except to the extent that mono-culture is returning, only this time wearing an X. No need to use anything else, because no matter what your workflow, X works best, and I have the examples to prove that there's no workflow that X hasn't more than licked.

Which means that the notion that there's something limited in the thinking of people who don't choose X, that they haven't chosen X because they haven't GOTTEN it, and once they GET it, of COURSE they'll use it -- is becoming more and more common, with or without the D word, the presence of which is nevertheless implied.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:27:43 am

[Tim Wilson] "heritage FCP-ers are more likely than anyone to be thoroughly fluent in more than one NLE, with fluency in all 3 major A companies quite common. Simply unprecedented, anywhere in the COW, and I'd wager anywhere in the industry. "

I think this is a testament to how the three A's have all improved their offerings while at the same time each fumbled away their respective opportunities to really get a leg up on the competition.


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Tim Wilson
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:56:48 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I think this is a testament to how the three A's have all improved their offerings while at the same time each fumbled away their respective opportunities to really get a leg up on the competition."

I think it's equally true that some FCP-ers felt so thoroughly burned that they'll never trust Apple or anyone else again. They're hedging their bets against further pain.

(You may have some distant memory of a fellow who was so dismayed by Avid's mishandling of DS that he left both it and Windows behind to go both feet into FCP...only to be dismayed by X, return to Windows for Premiere Pro...only to be dismayed by a subscription-only future. He's no longer in this business at all. An extreme case, but thoroughly documented.)

For one reason or another (workflow, format support, etc), some legacy FCP-ers have also NEEDED to make their next NLE moves, and found that not even the combination of Media Composer, Premiere Pro, and X makes them as happy as FCP did, but only the combination covers their needs.

So this unparalleled flexibility is in fact being driven by dinosaurs who find themselves unwilling or unable to commit to X, rather than the forward thinkers now settling into an X-only mindset that's calcifying even harder than the hardest-core FCP-er ever had.

Note that I'm personally passing no judgments. If there's an earlier proponent of X here than me, then I don't remember him. To this day, I may be the only one who said that Apple's rollout plan was flawless, and that keeping FCP 7 alive for a single second after the release of X would have been spectacularly misguided insanity. I was certainly the first, and spent months fighting uphill with that argument against all comers.

I've also said that "learn them all" is for most people a waste of time to be avoided, while also being a vocal fan of both Premiere Pro and Media Composer from long before any of this started. Makes no nevermind to me.

I'm just trying to use language in a way that annoys the largest number of people by overstating their position from the opposite perspective. LOL

But I honestly don't think it's as simple as saying that all of these options represent progress for every user -- even though I also entirely agree with you that all the A's, including X, have considerably raised their game in the last three and a half years since the X-pocalypse.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 1:00:50 pm

[Tim Wilson] "You may have some distant memory of a fellow who was so dismayed by Avid's mishandling of DS that he left both it and Windows behind to go both feet into FCP"

While we're talking lack of trust....I don't think this fellow was me as I am still in the business, but as an early adopter, beta tester and general manager of a company that bought several DS systems, the way Avid treated that product and it's customers burned a deep distrust of the company in me. Kill a superior product due to some sort of corporate arrogance, IMHO. Except for a very few (Marianna, to be specific), I rarely take a word from Avid as being truth. That's why I react to things like the Avid Customer Association and some of the promises that came after the subscription announcement as so much bulls**t. Let's see how they couch the subscription price increase next year...you know it's gonna happen.

So for the FCP-7 folks that felt burned, I feel ya. But I also agree with Tim that it was best to EOL it right then and there and move on. Take the legs out of the story, take your lumps and move on.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:01:41 pm

[Scott Witthaus] " I also agree with Tim that it was best to EOL it right then and there and move on. Take the legs out of the story, take your lumps and move on."

Except, of course, for the fact that the legs never came off the story, the lumps keep coming in terms of an industry wide antipathy to X based mostly on misinformation, and this forum is ample demonstration that many have not moved on. So yes, a perfect roll out.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Sjon Ueckert
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 2:42:16 am

Okay, I think it's time to hear from the viewpoint of the "Dinosaurs" and "Old Farts." I am well qualified to speak for both of those categories. First off, Dinosaurs didn't die off because they couldn't adapt, they died off because someone threw a very big rock at their house. And "Old Farts" are perfectly able to keep up with you young whippersnappers. I started out on a Moviola Upright and then graduated on my second film to a highly technical Steenbeck Flatbed. In the mid 90's I was a beta tester for Macromedia and had a version of Adobe PP (which I hated). I beta tested both Purple and KeyGrip (the forerunner to FCP). I was an early adopter of FCP 1.0 and had every iteration up to FCP 7. I was also a moderator on Creative Cow for Soundtrack Pro and LiveType (as well as the first third party developer of fonts for LiveType). To be honest, I was a little apprehensive about the jump from 7 to X, but I figured what the hell and took off my shoes and jumped right in. Now when clients want me to work with FCP7, my rate jumps about 40% versus FCPX. If I am made to sit and watch that damned "Writing video and audio" dialogue, I want to be paid to do it. I started on FCPX 1.0 and have never looked back. The deeper I dig into it, the farther I still have to dig. It's akin to driving an old gas guzzler with a lot of modifications and updates or driving a Tesla, with new technology and a lot of room for future growth? By the way, this old fart will be 70 this summer, and I'm still doing 90 mph down the road.



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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 12:26:28 pm

[Sjon Ueckert] "Okay, I think it's time to hear from the viewpoint of the "Dinosaurs" and "Old Farts."... I was a beta tester for Macromedia and had a version of Adobe PP (which I hated). I beta tested both Purple and KeyGrip (the forerunner to FCP). I was an early adopter of FCP 1.0 and had every iteration up to FCP 7... I was a little apprehensive about the jump from 7 to X, but I figured what the hell and took off my shoes and jumped right in. Now when clients want me to work with FCP7, my rate jumps about 40% versus FCPX. If I am made to sit and watch that damned "Writing video and audio" dialogue, I want to be paid to do it. I started on FCPX 1.0 and have never looked back."
Sorry Sjon, but I don't think you qualify for the title of "dinosaur" or "old fart". You are obviously a progressive individual who beta tests and is not afraid to blaze new trails. These are NOT the people we are talking about regardless of if you are 70 or 100 years old. We're talking old in mind and ways and not body. There are some people who only use the "tried and true method" that were "established by those who went before them". Those are the people who will never use FCP X until some one goes down the road before them and establishes it as the "new tried and true method".

That is at the heart of what this debate is all about. If you are someone who would never dream of beta testing and is afraid of change, then you're not a candidate to use tools that work different like FCP X until those of us who are not afraid establish it as the new norm. That doesn't take away from the fact that other factors like pipeline integration and missing features might also keep people from upgrading but some people are just adverse to learning a new way of doing things when their old way isn't broken (even if it is inefficient and outdated).

Someone has got to travel towards the horizon while everyone around them is saying that the world if flat. Those are the FCP X users. Meet you at the horizon. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 2:06:03 pm

[John Rofrano] "Someone has got to travel towards the horizon while everyone around them is saying that the world if flat. Those are the FCP X users. Meet you at the horizon. ;-)"

As someone who has at times bet his money on "bleeding edge" technologies, this is an interesting topic. From a business perspective being an early adapter is a risky business plan, good upside if you establish yourself in an emerging field, bad downside if you invest your time and money in a technological dead end, or worse yet, get to a technology too early, go broke, and then see other's cleaning up in a field you had entered years before.

Another problem with being an early adapter is that even if you gain exposure when successfully guessing which way the wind is blowing, that notoriety will be short lived when those with deeper pockets decide to enter the field. Being first does not equate with being best nor lasting longest, so if your in this as a business and your trying to make some money I'm not sure that chasing the horizon is the best way to spend your time. If it's an avocation, well then, bon voyage.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 6:44:04 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As someone who has at times bet his money on "bleeding edge" technologies, this is an interesting topic. From a business perspective being an early adapter is a risky business plan, good upside if you establish yourself in an emerging field, bad downside if you invest your time and money in a technological dead end, or worse yet, get to a technology too early, go broke, and then see other's cleaning up in a field you had entered years before."

What's the saying, the pioneers are the ones with the arrows in their backs? I fully appreciate the broken bodies of the bleeding-edgers lying on the ground before me, because without them painstakingly creating a trail (or trying to create a trail) before dying my life would be more difficult. ;)

Off hand I can't think of any tools I use on a daily basis that I started using at Version 1 yet I'm still successfully employed using these tools. If I was a integrator like Michael Kammes, an instructional teacher like Larry Jordan or a plugin maker like CrumblePop making plugins, then being first on the scene could be beneficial, but I'm an editor. Being first doesn't win me anything (especially in my market of Los Angeles).


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 7:27:36 pm

As someone who has at times bet his money on "bleeding edge" technologies, this is an interesting topic. From a business perspective being an early adapter is a risky business plan,

A good example out be Digital Heaven over here in the UK who set up the first Final Cut pro facility in London and their business failed although I am pleased to say they are still happily devoting and selling plugins.

Had Cold Mountain come out a year earlier they would have survived. Risky brines indeed. Not sure if Martin b`kier from Digital Heaven read the Cow but his perspective would be valuable here.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:02:59 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This is my fault. I have more work to do."

No grovelling, I'm allowed one victory in 3 years.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:45:54 pm

[Herb Sevush] "No grovelling, I'm allowed one victory in 3 years.
"


Ha! Nice one. Here's the thread where I did more research on the matter. I now have to go back and search dinosaurs and see what I see (or not). It seems that term was used mostly in the vain of learning something new, and moving from FCS 3 to any other NLE, not just X.

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/75201


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 12:46:12 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 29, 2014 at 12:52:29 pm

[Herb Sevush] ""there is no room for the old farts that are set in their ways..they are the dinosaurs of the post industry...period!""
I read that post and I believe you need to take it in context. Kim was talking about evolving and had just told a story about an employer who did not evolve and was kicking themselves that they didn't. In that context, she was comparing those who don't evolve with the industry to "dinosaurs" who, as everyone knows, met their demise because they did not evolve. I don't consider that "name calling". That was a valid comparison. It's like saying, "those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it". She was saying that, like the dinosaurs, those who don't evolve with the industry will become irrelevant and unemployed. The term "old farts" was definitely name calling though. ;-)

This is true in any industry. Those who resist change will fall behind as those who embrace it move forward.

I don't believe that those who resist FCP X are resisting change as much as trying to find a connection between their workflow and the new workflow which may not connect if you are using tape based ingestion or have other software in the production pipeline that prevent change from happening. This has been a good thread to point that out since I had not considered that before.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 1:56:15 pm

[John Rofrano] "I read that post and I believe you need to take it in context."

The context of Kim's post is the entirety of Kim's postings at the time, which were totally hyperbolic about X and contemptuous of anyone not ready to join the parade. Whether you believe it to be accurate or not, the idea that there were no postings calling some editors "dinosaurs" is simply not true.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:06:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "Just to keep the record clear, I don't remember anyone on the pro-X side ever actually calling those who don't like it "dinosaurs.""

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10927

"there is no room for the old farts that are set in their ways..they are the dinosaurs of the post industry...period!""


Thanks for posting the entire quote in context. That I missed a single post in 2011 SHOCKS me. Clearly this is evidence of widespread "dinosaur bashing" (not)

Plus after reading the exchange, it appears to me that the OP was being pretty specific applying that term to someone still using a telecine workflow in 2011! (Specifically a Rank Cintel film to tape transfer, which, BTW, I used to fly to Burbank from Phoenix do myself - whilst waiting in the only coffee shop I ever saw that had telephones installed in every booth to accommodate all the folk waiting for their film transfers in the days long before cel phones!)

That one use must have STUNG some folks so hard that it became a persistent meme.

And it's fair to ask if that's more about what the OP actually posted - or about the remarkably emotional thin skinned nature of the others in that particular thread?

Funny that so few thought "Hey, he can't be talking about ME cuz I don't DO rank transfers - but instead felt he MUST mean ME when he used the term dinosaur. Excuse me while I work up a righteous froth about it.

Sigh.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:14:46 pm

[Bill Davis] "Thanks for posting the entire quote in context. That I missed a single post in 2011 SHOCKS me."

Bill, you were merely quoting Jeremy in your original statement and even he acknowledges his mistake. Your absolutest quote being "i don't remember anyone ..." - not most people, just pure hyperbole based on someone else's research. That you still deal in exaggeration and absolutes to make a point is an almost endearing matter of style by now, but don't blame me when you get caught out on it.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
-- Your winnings, sir.
Oh, thank you very much.


Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:39:32 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Bill, you were merely quoting Jeremy in your original statement and even he acknowledges his mistake. Your absolutest quote being "i don't remember anyone ..." - not most people, just pure hyperbole based on someone else's research. That you still deal in exaggeration and absolutes to make a point is an almost endearing matter of style by now, but don't blame me when you get caught out on it."

Poppycock.

I clearly wrote "I don't remember."

So my post stands. That I couldn't recall ONE post out of literally thousands is perfectly reasonable.

If the "dinosasur(s)" search had revealed something like dozens of examples, It might be discussion worthy in this NG as a common diss aimed at those who argued against X. That it did not, says it's staying power was not in its essence, but in the emotional weight of those who took such umbrage at it's (apparently singular) use.

The issue wan't the term, but the shouldering of the "sting of the term" by a wide swath of non-X editors who weren't even in the class being called out by the OP. It's not the name calling. It's the self-manteling of the (I'M SO BUTT HURT BY THIS!) by so many that is probative here, IMO.

(Gosh, I feel so young again, arguing with you exactly like it's 2011! How deliciously retro fun!)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:29:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "So my post stands. That I couldn't recall ONE post out of literally thousands is perfectly reasonable."

Well then, here's number two - different thread

"and your replies remind me of a crusty old man so set in his ways he can't even be open minded to the concept of working differently...i feel so sorry for you to be so close minded...i guess thats why you hate fcp x then....you are just unwilling to accept change! typical of the old farts who are becoming dinosaurs of the post world......"

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/15673

I'm sure there is much that you don't recall, especially if it negates your point.

And yes, I too am enjoying this.

Nothing like being right at someone else's expense. There must be a German word for this.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:30:42 pm

[Herb Sevush] " There must be a German word for this."

Fahrvergnügen? ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:39:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Nothing like being right at someone else's expense. There must be a German word for this."

I nominate Schadenflop.

or perhaps Schadenflip?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:42:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "That one use must have STUNG some folks so hard that it became a persistent meme."

If you do your own search for "dinosaurs" you'll find multiple posts with it being used to describe people that are unwilling to evolve and/or adapt and, like any bit of slang or meme, it only takes once use to get the ball rolling if it's catchy.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:59:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "Thanks for posting the entire quote in context. That I missed a single post in 2011 SHOCKS me. Clearly this is evidence of widespread "dinosaur bashing" (not) ... That one use must have STUNG some folks so hard that it became a persistent meme."

I have probably contributed more than most to the labeling of "the Luddite dinosaur" argument. Here's how I see it.

It's not about literally calling people Luddite dinosaurs. It's about promoting this idea that everyone would choose FCP X if only they could set aside their preconceptions of how NLEs should work. If only they would drop their legacy workflows. If only they "got" it.

This often flows into another sentiment that FCP X is always the best adaptation to the changing industry, and that anyone who chooses any other NLE risks being passed by.

I think the Luddite dinosaur argument is well-intentioned. It comes from people who have found a better way to do their work, who are sincerely concerned about trying to compete "the old way," and who group all other competitive products into "the old way" category. They want to share that with others so that others can benefit, too. That's a good thing. Helping each other out is what the COW is all about.

However, I think the argument is also usually misguided and overzealous. It assumes that others are incapable of understanding how to meet their own needs (though in fairness, sometimes this is true). It is blind to the strengths of competing products, as well as the weaknesses of the promoted product. Just like the old anti-FCPX "fanboy" argument, now largely gone, the dinosaur argument is more an ad hominem argument about the users (or non-users) of a particular NLE than an advancement of the discussion.

If you'll pardon a bit of reduction, the Luddite dinosaur argument starts from a very good argument (FCP X has some unique tools and workflows that make it worth consideration) and implies a very bad one (no other NLE has unique tools and workflows worth consideration).

For me, this forum is at its best when we are open to the possibilities each offering presents. Shutting that down by promoting an FCP X monoculture and dismissing anyone not using FCP X as lateral movers would exclude some really interesting conversation.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:37:58 pm

[Walter Soyka] "For me, this forum is at its best when we are open to the possibilities each offering presents. Shutting that down by promoting an FCP X monoculture and dismissing anyone not using FCP X as lateral movers would exclude some really interesting conversation."

But Water, this forum has never even been CLOSE to being an FCP X monoculture.

If anyone wants to count the posts (and whole threads) about Premier - I'd be interested in the number. Or the posts that referenced AVID. Or Vegas.

And again, perhaps it's "posting PTSD" - but I still remind myself that whenever I say something positive about X I have to make dammed sure I follow it with a sentence acknowledging that Premier and AVID are fine tools as well. Thats awfully tiresome. But it comes directly out of an environment when X was the derided underdog from day one.

I had someone who's lurked here regularly but was discussing this on another board jokingly suggest that I'd spent the last 3 years defending X on this forum with an "iron hand". The interesting thing was how he followed that with the observation that everyone else excited about X had simple long ago left for other neighborhoods, not wanting to put up with the constant X (and X supporter!) bashing here.

Yes, "dinosaur" became a pejorative meme in these parts. But so did variants of the equally pejorative FCP X fanboy.

So who wants to do the equivalent post count comparing usage of each?

Oh, and Happy Holidays Walter!- perhaps we can hang out a bit at NAB again in April. I hope you and yours have a great 2015!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:24:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "But Water, this forum has never even been CLOSE to being an FCP X monoculture. "

I think the balance here has shifted a lot since day one. Looking at the heads currently on the top of this forum, everyone except Andrew and myself are primarily FCP X users -- and I don't think either Andrew or I are dismissive of FCP X.


[Bill Davis] "And again, perhaps it's "posting PTSD" - but I still remind myself that whenever I say something positive about X I have to make dammed sure I follow it with a sentence acknowledging that Premier and AVID are fine tools as well. Thats awfully tiresome. But it comes directly out of an environment when X was the derided underdog from day one. "

I don't think arguments occur when someone says something positive about their favorite software. I think they occur when someone says (or strongly implies) something negative about someone else's favorite software.

That's one of the things that differentiates the Luddite dinosaur argument. It's not about using FCP X. It's about not using FCP X.


[Bill Davis] "I had someone who's lurked here regularly but was discussing this on another board jokingly suggest that I'd spent the last 3 years defending X on this forum with an "iron hand". The interesting thing was how he followed that with the observation that everyone else excited about X had simple long ago left for other neighborhoods, not wanting to put up with the constant X (and X supporter!) bashing here."

Somehow, I think everyone feels that their NLE of choice is bashed here.


[Bill Davis] "Yes, "dinosaur" became a pejorative meme in these parts. But so did variants of the equally pejorative FCP X fanboy."

Yes, that's my point. The "Luddite dinosaur" argument is related to the "fanboy" argument: they're posts about posters. I'd rather talk about data models and tools, workflows in the abstract, or maybe even real, actual work!


[Bill Davis] "Oh, and Happy Holidays Walter!- perhaps we can hang out a bit at NAB again in April. I hope you and yours have a great 2015!"

Likewise!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:38:59 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:47:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I think the balance here has shifted a lot since day one. Looking at the heads currently on the top of this forum, everyone except Andrew and myself are primarily FCP X users -- and I don't think either Andrew or I are dismissive of FCP X."

I'm not actually sure if the "heads" up top are a measure of something or not.

For example, my friend Gary Adcock had his photo up at the top of the FCP X Techniques forum for a HUGE string of months on my display, and I can't recall more than a couple of posts from him from time to time. It's like he'd been "pinned" there.

And David Battistella is still up there, despite not having posted anything in the last 60 days.

Jenn Lindsey is up there (which I think is FABULOUS since acknowledging the women in the field is a value I support whole heartedly!) but I think she's relatively new - so it can't be longevity or accumulated points. (Please stay and keep contributing, Jenn!)

I know that one setting is "top contributors" but I *think* it functions on some type of time basis, so someone who posts 50 times, but crosses the time boundary might get 25 posts in each of two different time slices - might therefore fail to make the picture gallery?

But really, I don't have a clue how rogues gallery participation actually functions.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:03:13 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'm not actually sure if the "heads" up top are a measure of something or not."

I'm sure that Tim could describe the algorithm in more detail, but basically they indicate forum leaders and frequent recent posters.

In the case of this forum, I think they're a pretty good summary of who's talking a lot.

There's an aphorism of dubious attribution which says that a person who says something is impossible should not interrupt a person who is doing it. Don't you think we have more of the latter than the former here now?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:01:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "Yes, "dinosaur" became a pejorative meme in these parts."

Ahhh, the admission.

I thank you.

Applause.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:19:25 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "Yes, "dinosaur" became a pejorative meme in these parts."

Ahhh, the admission.

I thank you."


Oh, admitted. It was a sobriquet earned by the very few but applied to a whole class, to be sure.

(Now I shall wait patiently for you to acknowledge that "FCP X fanboy" has been just as prevalent.)

...of course we also know that lashing out at someone who holds a minority position is considered less a transgression than lashing out at a member of a majority position (at least by those IN said majority position)

so there's that.

and so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:34:45 pm

[Bill Davis] "(Now I shall wait patiently for you to acknowledge that "FCP X fanboy" has been just as prevalent."

I would think the "fanboy" to "dinosaur" ratio was about 60/40 in the first 2 years (that is, more invective hurled at X users than hurled at nay-sayers.) Nowadays, I'd say it's about 50/50. But then again I never said the fanboy tirades didn't exist. I leave historical alteration to others -- I'm just the self appointed forum fact checker.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:37:39 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Bill Davis] "(Now I shall wait patiently for you to acknowledge that "FCP X fanboy" has been just as prevalent."

I would think the "fanboy" to "dinosaur" ratio was about 60/40 in the first 2 years (that is, more invective hurled at X users than hurled at nay-sayers.) Nowadays, I'd say it's about 50/50. But then again I never said the fanboy tirades didn't exist. I leave historical alteration to others -- I'm just the self appointed forum fact checker.
"


Can we add in the "Apple Kool-aid" (or equivalent) remarks, or perhaps these were just a subset of "FCPX Fanboy"?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:44:19 pm

[Steve Connor] "Can we add in the "Apple Kool-aid" (or equivalent) remarks, or perhaps these were just a subset of "FCPX Fanboy"?"

Probably should be a separate category since someone could still be an Apple Fanboy when it comes to hardware yet still use an NLE besides X. I feel like this needs a venn digram.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:54:12 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I feel like this needs a venn digram."

As long as the middle overlap section contains some sort of mushroom cloud.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:58:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "As long as the middle overlap section contains some sort of mushroom cloud."

And I literally laughed out loud causing an awkward moment in the office. Thanks Jeremy! ;)


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Richard Herd
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 10:26:43 pm

[Walter Soyka] "It's about promoting this idea that everyone would choose FCP X if only they could set aside their preconceptions of how NLEs should work. If only they would drop their legacy workflows. If only they "got" it.
"


That is only half the Dinosaur analysis to (A) Set aside preconceptions, a veil of ignorance.
There is also (B) "you just have to use the software to 'get it,'" ostensive concept acquisition.

The fanboy analysis is surely the contrapositive: a veil of opulence and meditation. ;)


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 1:50:22 am

[Richard Herd] "That is only half the Dinosaur analysis to (A) Set aside preconceptions, a veil of ignorance. There is also (B) "you just have to use the software to 'get it,'" ostensive concept acquisition. The fanboy analysis is surely the contrapositive: a veil of opulence and meditation. ;)"

I love your semantic rigor, and your sense of humor. I minored in philosophy in college, and while I apply that study constantly, I don't get to reference it very often.

But back to the off-topic at hand, I do actually think that both (A) and (B) are important for understanding FCP X.

Aside from the argumentum ad hominem I've already detailed, I believe the Luddite dinosaur argument also suffers from argumentum ad novitatem.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 7:12:06 pm

I minored in Linguistics and have an obsession with epistemology.


[Walter Soyka] "But back to the off-topic at hand, I do actually think that both (A) and (B) are important for understanding FCP X.

Aside from the argumentum ad hominem I've already detailed, I believe the Luddite dinosaur argument also suffers from argumentum ad novitatem."


I only add that (A) and (B) are necessary for all knowledge acquisition and that it's reasonable for an editor to (A, forget what they know) and (B, use the software) and therefore also reasonably reject X. Seems like an obvious statement, but I rarely hear anyone making that argument. (So I just did.)


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tony west
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:49:03 pm

[Steve Connor] "I absolutely do NOT buy in to the idea that tracks in NLEs "get in the way" of storytelling or the editing process in general, it's just a different way of working."

Wouldn't this depend on the person Steve?

To some people, anything they don't "need" to tell the story could be considered in "their" way.

Tracks or whatever it is.

I could see somebody else saying, they are not in "my" way because I like them.

You can tell a story effectively without tracks. If you couldn't then X or programs like it wouldn't work.

Many people like to organize with tracks. If that's something a person doesn't care about I could see them saying "get that out of my way"

To me, that was much of the idea behind this simplistic looking UI in the first place. They were trying to put the things they thought that most people that would use the program would use most upfront, and the other things in the back.

There are things in your house that you don't use everyday, like maybe the good plates. They don't need to be up in the front so that you are reaching over them every day. You move them to the back. That's how most people organize their homes.

I'm not using it right now, get it out of "my" way.

To me, this entire program is designed around that mindset.

Many people in life are trying to get from point A to B in the fewest amount of steps. Any extra steps on the journey are intolerable hahahahaha


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:52:53 pm

[tony west] "[Steve Connor] "I absolutely do NOT buy in to the idea that tracks in NLEs "get in the way" of storytelling or the editing process in general, it's just a different way of working."

Wouldn't this depend on the person Steve?"


Apologies, should have added the caveat "for experienced Editors"


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tony west
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 4:47:21 pm

[Steve Connor] "Apologies, should have added the caveat "for experienced Editors"
"


Should have added your definition of experienced editors.

20 years, 25? Emmy's ?


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 5:10:47 pm

[tony west] "20 years, 25? Emmy's ?"

Absolute minimum :)


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 7:10:17 am

Uh oh. Must not mention experience or awards, lest the "get off my lawn!" set start yelling in righteous (ALL CAPS) indignation.


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tony west
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 3:02:34 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "Uh oh. Must not mention experience or awards, lest the "get off my lawn!" set start yelling in righteous (ALL CAPS) indignation.
"


hahaha

It's funny, for me, so much of broadcast these days is turn it around in a short period of time.

Often shoot and to air same day. That's when "experience" comes in. To me it's much more challenging working under the gun and getting it right than when you have all the time in the world.

Doesn't mean that you are working on something cheap, or that nobody will watch it. Just the nature of working in television sometimes.

It would be awesome to send everything out for audio sweetening and grading. The reality is that's often not an option. But having RX 4 sitting in that program is an option. And a good one : )


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:46:45 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Other editors are troubled by such freedoms, which require worrying about things like sync, and are thrilled that they can have their hands held as they move their locked-together media around the timeline."

Seriously?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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tony west
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 3:28:58 pm

[John Rofrano] "They are telling a story where events happen in a particular order and these events have corresponding things that all happen together (e.g., a video clip with a video overlay, and a sound effect with music accompaniment) and when you move the video to alter the story, the fact that the sound fx and music and overlays and whatever else is associated with it moves with it is pure genius."

I agree John, I love working this way.

I usually don't try to convince others they should switch to this way though. They know what they want.

If they want to work with tracks have at it.

When folks ask me about it at work I tell them what I like about it. Most times they are interested in hearing more and want to try it. The folks I am dealing with have never seen X or tried it so they are an open book to me.

I do agree with you in that they wanted to break from tradition, that they said, why does the audio and video need to be separate from each other by default at this point in time. You recorded them together keep them together until you need them apart.


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Daniel Frome
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:15:48 pm

[John Rofrano] "the fact that the sound fx and music and overlays and whatever else is associated with it moves with it is pure genius."

Can someone explain how this is different than grouping a series of elements on the Premiere Pro timeline? If I group, then moving something will keep them together in much the same way, no?


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:48:05 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 28, 2014 at 4:50:41 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Can someone explain how this is different than grouping a series of elements on the Premiere Pro timeline? If I group, then moving something will keep them together in much the same way, no?"
I've never used Premiere Pro but I did come from Sony Vegas Pro and I'll tell you how it's different than groups in Vegas Pro but first I must explain how groups work in Vegas Pro and then you can decide if this is the same in Premiere Pro.

In Vegas Pro when you group a clip with a lower third and perhaps music, the group always stays fixed as a whole. That is to say, if I move the lower third, the clip and the music move too. If I move the music, the clip and the lower third move too. If I move the clip the lower third and the music moves to. They always stick together like glue.

That's NOT the behavior of Connected Clips in FCP X. With connected clips if I move the clip, the lower third and the music move too. If, however, I move the lower third, then just the lower third moves. If I move the music, just the music moves. The only time everything moves together is when I move the clip. This allows me to adjust the position of the lower third or music without having to ungroup, move, then regroup. Very different behavior. Almost a master/slave behavior where the connected clips are slaved to follow the master clip that they are connected to but not the other way around.

I don't know if that's how groups work in Premiere Pro but that's the difference between groups in Vegas Pro and connected clips in Final Cut Pro X. BTW, Vegas Pro has since tried to implement a similar construct they call "Sync Link" but it is poorly implemented and not as intuitive as what Apple has done. They even added a "Shuffle" tool to simulate the magnetic timeline but it falls far short because the "tracks" get in the way and mess the position of the sync linked clips up.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 9:03:58 pm

[John Rofrano] "In Vegas Pro when you group a clip with a lower third and perhaps music, the group always stays fixed as a whole. That is to say, if I move the lower third, the clip and the music move too. If I move the music, the clip and the lower third move too. If I move the clip the lower third and the music moves to. They always stick together like glue.

That's NOT the behavior of Connected Clips in FCP X. With connected clips if I move the clip, the lower third and the music move too. If, however, I move the lower third, then just the lower third moves. If I move the music, just the music moves. The only time everything moves together is when I move the clip."


Part of this is a fundamental difference between X and track-based NLEs. In Vegas, more so than other NLEs, audio and video tracks have equal weight and priority. That's more or less the same approach in any track-based NLE. In X, they don't. A primary storyline clip has different values and properties within the program than a secondary storyline clip or a connected clip. Part of the magic, but also the frustration of X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony west
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 6:20:50 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Can someone explain how this is different than grouping a series of elements on the Premiere Pro timeline? If I group, then moving something will keep them together in much the same way, no?"

In X, I'm not selecting anything. Not even the main clip. I'm just grabbing it. I don't have to select the b-roll or the sound from the b-roll or the music or font or any of that.

By grabbing one clip everything with that clip is going to go "automatically"

Are you saying that' how Prp works? How would it know which tracks you want moved if you didn't tell it at some point.


I also like that X is anticipating where I might want the group move to end up by putting up that blue line at each section.

It's saying "are you trying to put that here?"

Me "yes"

Then I let it drop and I don't even have to be that close to it.

Once again it's that duel argument.

The X timeline is too different, but when that difference is explained as an advantage to some, then the argument is that's the same as the NLE

X can't be different and exactly the same at the same time. It's one or the other : )


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Daniel Frome
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 6:41:14 pm

[tony west] "By grabbing one clip everything with that clip is going to go "automatically"

Are you saying that' how Prp works? How would it know which tracks you want moved if you didn't tell it at some point."


Yeah, it sort of does, let me explain:
Pretend I have a complex arrangement of transitions, music, FX, and videoclips on my timeline. I first select them all and "group." From now on, whenever I select any one of those components, all the items in the group are selected, allowing me to move around, delete, etc, the whole arrangement more or less as if it was one clip.

As for "how does it know which tracks?" - it relies on the the mouse pointer. The click/drag function will let you keep everything on the same tracks, or slide everything up/down some tracks if you are dragging it there. I think the idea of tracks probably does not make it as efficient as FCPX here, but it's honestly hardly ever an issue.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 9:08:59 pm

[Daniel Frome] "Pretend I have a complex arrangement of transitions, music, FX, and videoclips on my timeline. I first select them all and "group." From now on, whenever I select any one of those components, all the items in the group are selected, allowing me to move around, delete, etc, the whole arrangement more or less as if it was one clip. "
I hate that behavior. ;-) That's not how connected clips behave. What if you needed to move the music or an FX just a little bit to the left or right? How do you do that? In FCP X you just move it. Done! Don't like it? Move it again. Done! In Premiere Pro you probably have to 1) ungroup it, 2) move it, 3) select all of the items that were previously grouped, 4) regroup it, 5) realize you didn't move it quite enough so you ungroup it again, 6) move it, 7) select all of the items that were previously grouped, 8) regroup it... we'll you get the idea. It gets tiresome real fast! Been there, done that, and groups are not as efficient for editing as connected clips, not by a long shot.
[Daniel Frome] "As for "how does it know which tracks?" - it relies on the the mouse pointer. The click/drag function will let you keep everything on the same tracks, or slide everything up/down some tracks if you are dragging it there. I think the idea of tracks probably does not make it as efficient as FCPX here, but it's honestly hardly ever an issue."
What if your clip has a sound fx attached but later on down the track there is music and then you drag it down the track and the sfx and music want to be in the same place on the same track but they can't. So now you have to add a track or move the music to another track to make room before you drag. It's just a lot of wasted time. This is where not having tracks makes it simple. in FCP X they just move out of each others way. You never have to stop and think about it. This happens a lot in my editing so for me it's a big deal to not have to deal with this any more.

This is a case of "you have to experience it to fully understand". I just read the same discussion about skimming. A previous FCP user was asking if Vegas Pro can skim and all of the Vegas Pro editors say, of course you just scrub the timeline playhead. Skimming is NOT scrubbing. Unless you have experienced skimming you won't understand why skimming is not scrubbing. Same thing with connected clips. Connected clips are not groups. Similar concept but different behavior.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 9:18:06 pm

[John Rofrano] "What if your clip has a sound fx attached but later on down the track there is music and then you drag it down the track and the sfx and music want to be in the same place on the same track but they can't. "

That's what's known as a track assignment failure. ;)


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 12:58:49 am

[Andrew Kimery] "That's what's known as a track assignment failure. ;)"
lol... that's a good one. :-D

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Daniel Frome
Re: dShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 10:06:28 pm

This is exactly what I figured. I'm definitely going to experiment with this once I land a project that is suited for Final Cut X.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 10:38:55 pm

[John Rofrano] "the fact that the sound fx and music and overlays and whatever else is associated with it moves with it is pure genius."

[Daniel Frome] "Can someone explain how this is different than grouping a series of elements on the Premiere Pro timeline? If I group, then moving something will keep them together in much the same way, no?"

Both grouping and temporary grouping are features on DAWs so the difference with X as I understand it is that it is the default behaviour and has to be disabled when that grouping is not what is desired. In that it is less flexible than a DAW with tracks and the range of grouping options that I have enjoyed for years. And during the twenty years that I have worked with that range of grouping options, permanent grouping is the least used function. I prefer temp grouping which is really easy to do in a track based system like Fairlight without risk of destructive overwriting.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 28, 2014 at 10:51:48 pm

I guess I should clarify that track and group behaviours in NLEs have always looked inferior to me to the way DAWs like Fairlight work. I hate cutting sound in NLEs for so many reasons. But track based overwrite is high on the list.

X has effectively solved the basic problem but in doing so has lost some of the human organisational power of a track based display and the ability to have clip AND track based audio processing plus sub bussing. The combination of conected clips, mag timeline and Roles still looks inferior to me compared to DAWs.

In the spirit of this thread I am prepared to say that for story editing X does appear to have solved the problem well enough to make editing a faster and possibly more creative process and for many workflows it would be superior. Could it be better with a track based system? For me the answer is yes but only if an NLE maker looked at how all the problems were solved years ago by DAWs like Fairlight.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 1:06:21 am

[Michael Gissing] "X has effectively solved the basic problem but in doing so has lost some of the human organisational power of a track based display and the ability to have clip AND track based audio processing plus sub bussing. The combination of conected clips, mag timeline and Roles still looks inferior to me compared to DAWs. "
I really miss having buses! In Vegas Pro I had a Master Video Bus and a Master Audio Bus and I could throw a broadcast safe plug-in on the master video bus and a brick wall limiter on the master audio bus and I was all set. I haven't figured out how to do this in FCP X yet but I assume it has something to do with roles. I tend to agree I don't have the flexibility of sub-bussing anymore and I miss it. I hope once I fully understand roles I can get some of it back.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:07:57 am

[John Rofrano] "I haven't figured out how to do this in FCP X yet but I assume it has something to do with roles"

Nope. No way to do this in X. Roles is how many of us think it *could* happen, but for now you have to use Compound Clips. IMHO audio functionality for doing real mixes is a LOT better in PProCC.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 2:56:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "IMHO audio functionality for doing real mixes is a LOT better in PProCC."

The Sends capabilities in PPro ARE pretty impressive for an NLE. Also, clip and track mixers both functioning simultaneously. It's pretty cool.


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David Mathis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 4:31:25 am

Been curious to what others think about doing a rough cut in Resolve then sending the edit over to FCP X and another program for dealing with audio. Resolve has much better keyframing and trimming, which has me thinking in this direction. Will be interesting to see what BMD has up their sleeves, especially with Fusion over the short term.


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John Rofrano
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 12:51:16 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Dec 29, 2014 at 12:53:15 pm

[Oliver Peters] "No way to do this in X. Roles is how many of us think it *could* happen, but for now you have to use Compound Clips."
I was afraid if that. :(
[Oliver Peters] "IMHO audio functionality for doing real mixes is a LOT better in PProCC."
The best for my money is Vegas Pro. It has a full fledges DAW built in with a mixer that has buses and sub-buses and sends, and everything you could possibly want for audio production. As I said, this is what I miss most when I'm using FCP X.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Lance Bachelder
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 5:48:56 pm

Welcome to the world after Vegas :) It's not just the mixer and busses etc. it's the SPEED! Sound Designing as I cut in Vegas is so fast and so good. Problem is Sony is WAY behind in realtime playback and the stability and bugs have gotten worse with every version since Vegas 9!

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:27:35 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:42:57 pm

[Michael Gissing] "I guess I should clarify that track and group behaviours in NLEs have always looked inferior to me to the way DAWs like Fairlight work. I hate cutting sound in NLEs for so many reasons. But track based overwrite is high on the list."

Michael,

The thing you're missing is that audio is essentially single stream digital content. Which is to say that at the core, you have a consistent digital description of one type of waveforms. That stays consistent across all DAW approaches.

In video editing, the original clip is expected to be a layered composite. It will, by default, at least have video and audio muxed together. So file handling in an NLE (audio and video mixed clips) has a different fundamental structure compared to file handling in an audio only DAW.

The classic approach is to break apart video and audio on timeline import and separate the audio and video components. X does not do this.

X is the only NLE that by default, preserves the muxed nature of the original content during editing operations. To break apart these files requires editor action. It succeeds because the default describes something that is extremely valuable to a video editor. Video that preserves SYNC sound.

Eseentially, the default operating style mirrors the default shooting style of most video content. The exception is double system, and with that, X allows the user to CREATE sync content early, to enjoy the benefits of locking originally separate audio to video through the editorial process.

So to suggest that an NLE (double stream content) needs to be informed by a system designed for sound (single stream content) is to misunderstand the fundamental nature of the differences between video and audio work.

Yes, generations of editors have been "conditioned" to expect separate audio and video from stage one. But that does not mean it's the best way. The designers in X figured out that it was quite possible to maintain sync clip throughout the entire editorial process and allow the EDITOR to determine whether or when to separate them - rather than the software demanding separation upon import as a condition of editing.

That's one of many of the very smart changes that Apple made in X when they re-conceived it.

Simple as that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:53:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "That's one of many of the very smart changes that Apple made in X when they re-conceived it.
"


If only they had imagined a way to re-sync clips easily, or even add sync markers as well


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:07:06 pm

[Steve Connor] "If only they had imagined a way to re-sync clips easily, or even add sync markers as well"

Huh?

They did EXACTLY this. It's not difficult to set markers as a sync assist when you invoke "break apart clip items" since they break apart in sync.

The entire POINT of treating clips as unified audio and video files and allowing the editor to work on them as a unit. Why? Because it takes huge complexity out of the system. You only need to work on separate files if you CHOOSE to do so. If the camera provides audio and video in sync, it STAYS that way. In all other NLEs you ALWAYS have to consider Audio and Video as separate items - particularly in areas such as Audio clip collisions where you can move a clip with a J-CUT or L-CUT somewhere and accidentally kill the adjacent audio you never wanted to lose.

Honestly, the resistance to giving up the way it's been done, JUST because it's the way it's been done - is kinda staggering sometimes.

This is why so many young editors find X so much easier to "get" than us old dogs. Bunches of things like the fact that it doesn't make you condition yourself to perpetually think about every clip as TWO things, when you're actually using it as ONE thing.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:11:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "Honestly, the resistance to giving up the way it's been done, JUST because it's the way it's been done - is kinda staggering sometimes. "

Go on say the word "Dinosaur" :)

Wanting sync markers have NOTHING (see I can shout too Bill) to do with not adapting, it's just about wanting something very BASIC (shouting again!) that other NLEs have instead of having to apply markers which is, in effect a WORKROUND! (Apologies for all the shouting)


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:22:04 pm

[Steve Connor] "Go on say the word "Dinosaur" :)"

Totally unnecessary since without even saying it - I could instantly implant the term directly into YOUR brain.

Such a rush of power - this ability to infect the minds of other. I shall double down on my watchfulness that I might use this stunning power wisely...

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Gissing
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 4:29:31 am

[Bill Davis] "The thing you're missing is that audio is essentially single stream digital content. Which is to say that at the core, you have a consistent digital description of one type of waveforms. That stays consistent across all DAW approaches.

In video editing, the original clip is expected to be a layered composite. It will, by default, at least have video and audio muxed together. So file handling in an NLE (audio and video mixed clips) has a different fundamental structure compared to file handling in an audio only DAW."

Sorry for the long quote as I didn't want to be accused of paraphrasing your description. In a typical DAW timeline for a documentary I will have mono dialog, mono & stereo effects, stereo music files and then possibly a collection of multichannel wavs which might be surround effects, or multi dialog tracks when many radio mics are being used (a bit like multicam). So in exactly the same way as an NLE, I need a system that can both lock a multi channel file or break it apart and then relock it again.

I don't see a video with multi audio file as anything different as it is simply another multi channel file where one channel happens to be an image. In a multi channel dialog file typical on a big drama scene each channel is totally unique and may be broken up and edited differently yet need to remain in sync (or not).

Further, a scene has a large number of totally unrelated files that have a sync relationship to the picture. When I reversion a mix from say a feature version to a TV cutdown I have to edit up to ninety eight tracks of disparate but sync related elements plus automation including multiple mix buses and a final mix bus. That is editing totally beyond anything as complex as you are ever likely to deal with in X.

The fact that I can have fluid grouping/ sync relationships and no fear of destructive overwriting whilst maintaining track and clip based signal processing means I need a tool that is much more advanced than X is with its mag timeline and roles which do not come close to dealing with the complexity of even a simple documentary on a DAW.

To dismiss DAW editing to the idea that I am dealing with a single digital stream with one type of waveform is to show an ignorance of what goes into a typical tracklay & mix and the need to create a variety of versions from a master sequence. It is that complexity that has meant that a way to manage such sync relationships, track relationships, to manage routing, signal processing and dynamic automation that has meant DAWs had to solve the very problems that X is attempting to deal with a long time ago.

So that is why I hate audio editing and mixing in DAWs. Vegas, because it was a DAW that added video editing was a better attempt. I should also point out that I sometimes have to edit video as well in Fairlight. It might surprise you to know I can do a video & audio edit directly in the Fairlight timeline, even if the video stream is 3D. It even does dissolves and fades. It also stacks video clips non destructively on a single track and produces and EDL and AAF of the cut. But it is a simple video tool with a hugely powerful and complex audio section. NLEs are essentially the opposite. Powerful picture tools with ordinary audio capability but with exactly the same need to deal with group and syn relationships.

So before you think that X has come up with the best way to manage sync and group relationships between related and totally unrelated media invite yourself into an audio post facility and marvel at the complexity and the tool set that a DAW needs to deal with typically 6,000-8000 separate audio elements in a simple but typical one hour show, particularly watch them reversion or deal with directors re-cutting after a mix.

So whilst I applaud X for having a go at solving the same problems that were fixed a long time ago by DAWs like Fairlight, please don't think X is on top of the solution or that there isn't a better way that might just need tracks to be truly powerful.


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 6:22:27 am

[Michael Gissing] " I need a tool that is much more advanced than X is with its mag timeline and roles which do not come close to dealing with the complexity of even a simple documentary on a DAW.
"


Chiming in just for the heck of it. You're absolutely correct in your assessment of DAW vs. NLE. They're two entirely different beasts. While it's certainly possible to do a complex mix in an NLE, to me it's just the wrong tool, even with a bolted on mixer a la Premiere, FCP 7 etc. And X doesn't have one at all.

That said, There are some really nice things about working with multichannel sources in the X timeline. By expanding the components of a clip, you can work with, as your example, multichannel dialog wav files. Cut out bits, enable/disable and effect various channels. And they close right up reducing visual clutter when you don't need to see them. Like a DAW, audio is always editable in subframe/sample increments without changing "modes". Setting connection points is very easy, and it keeps your audio only clips in sync. Using Comps (audio only or including the picture) can lock sync between dozens of clips as tight as a drum.

And Roles can certainly organize your audio into as many "tracks" as you'd like, you just need to create/assign them. A Master Role (Bus Group?) of Dialogue could contain subroles DIA A, B, C, etc. An ADR Role could have subroles for different characters etc. Effects could contain Mono FX, Stereo FX, Hard FX, LF FX, Ambience, Room Tone, Surround FX (which you could break down further in their components) etc. A Foley Role could contain various Foley subroles, Walla, Footsteps, whatever... Just like tracks, you can have as many as you need. All searchable/selectable/mute/solo-able etc from the timeline index.

So, in a way, Roles = Bus Groups, and Sub Roles = Tracks.

What Roles can't do now, is work like Busses do. Even though Master Roles kind of are like Bus Groups, there's no mixer with which to utilize that function. If there was, it'd pretty much work as we're used to I'd think. A Role(s) could be assigned to a Master, or a send etc. Or if Master Roles had sends to... something... that would be cool. FCP X just (simple! lol) needs a mixer. I'm not sure Apple wants to do that, but who knows.

Using fcpxml, Roles already come into Logic (and other DAW's via X2Pro) as nicely named tracks. If Apple can further integrate fcpxml with Logic, maybe Master Roles would be converted to Track Stacks (which are very cool) Or maybe in the X timeline Roles could collapse like Comps but open back up like components. You could then effect/mix the Master Role, as well as effecting/manipulating the individual clips contained by the Role. You can already do this by comping a Role, but it's a kludge, you can't open it up in context (i.e. in the timeline containing the comp) without breaking it apart which means you lose any mixing/Effects you've done. Again, you sort of can, but not really.

I guess what I'm saying, in a long winded way, is that Roles could conceivably do everything that tracks/busses/sends can do. The way they're designed would allow this now. The problem --as seen in my signature which was copied verbatim from within the bowels of the FCP X app package when I was poking around-- is that:

"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, they come up with...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Dominic Deacon
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 9:30:02 pm

[Bill Davis] "X is the only NLE that by default, preserves the muxed nature of the original content during editing operations. To break apart these files requires editor action. It succeeds because the default describes something that is extremely valuable to a video editor. Video that preserves SYNC sound."

Edius does this too but in a different way. The first track in a Edius timeline is a VA track. You can stick your footage there and it locks them together or you can stick it in a conventional track that seperates the two. There's a lot about Edius default layout that feels similar to X. VA tracks lock the audio and video together, it's by default in tracks locked, ripple mode which has the footage dancing in a way that is very similar to the magnetic timeline. Does make me wonder if the X team had a look at it before they built their own.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 3:53:36 pm

[Jonny Elwyn, via RedShark News] "Moving forward, for my money, the most interesting piece of software out there is Final Cut Pro X. Pretty much anyone who is doing something interesting or innovative is doing it in connection with FCPX. "

I don't understand this statement at all.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:33:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I don't understand this statement at all."

Since he later says this, "If you want to work in TV and film, you need to know Avid. I wish I knew it better, as the people who use it are consistently creating amazing films" I assume the "interesting or innovative" comment has to do with plugins, workflow, etc., being such virgin territory compared PPro or Avid. Kinda like how a gear head might find an Android phone or a jailbroken iPhone more interesting and innovative than just using a regular iPhone.

I mean, Avid has been successful in demanding, high-profile workflows for so long that no one really talks about it anymore, but when FCP Legend, PPro or X get used in similar fashion it generates a lot of chatter.


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:20:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I assume the "interesting or innovative" comment has to do with plugins, workflow, etc., being such virgin territory compared PPro or Avid. "

Nope.

I suspect the reviewer has been watching the other FCP X centric sites and has been watching and reading what's coming out of the X community in terms of innovative new uses. Off the top of my head, three good examples were:

-Peter Wiggins use of the X database to cut down the editorial time in the live world of last year's Tour de France for ITV2 (His top 10 X plusses included many about X's database approach that I've ignored, but also a couple about the editorial process itself...

4) Magnetic Timeline - add and subtract shots without moving blocks of clips, trimming to make space, or fuss. and
8) Better use of speed changes with Blade speed and Optical Flow. Very handy for putting holds for timing in rendered graphic files

Then there was:

- Thomas Grove Carters "above and below the line" audio workflow for Honda's The Other Side video

- and most recently, the use of X by the Australian editor Clayton Jacobson to cut his wildly imaginative 2D music video composites.

Both these stories were posted on the FCP.co website

These present very specific evidence of editors finding that X allows them to cut high level work in X in ways that Avid or Premier or any other NLE simply can't do. No, it's not that you can't successfully edit these same projects in any other NLE, of course you can. But the unique processes in X makes the work more efficient and more CREATIVE - (not according to me, but according to the editing professionals posting these examples.)

The bottom line is that there IS a growing body of evidence that the way Apple reconstituted X has lead to editors who use it to leverage the new thinking into ACTUAL editorial improvements in their work - compared to what they used to do in their traditional NLEs.

That does NOT appear to be the case outside of X. Which makes a lot of sense, since other NLEs haven't really done much to actually change their actual editorial process.

If you feel different, post away. But there IS a growing body of evidence that X editors are encouraged to not just keep the editorial skills that they came to the software with - but to improve them - basically leveraging what X can do inside the editorial environment itself - that they either couldn't or just didn't do before.

You may think that's an accident. I tend to think it's that new thinking leads to new ideas and new inspiration. But that's certainly open for debate.

My 2 cents anyway.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 7:41:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "Nope."

Andrew: I think the guy is talking about things like new workflows in FCPX.
Bill: Nope. What the guy is talking about is new workflows in FCPX.
Andrew: ???


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 8:02:36 pm

[Bill Davis] "But the unique processes in X makes the work more efficient and more CREATIVE - (not according to me, but according to the editing professionals posting these examples.)

The bottom line is that there IS a growing body of evidence that the way Apple reconstituted X has lead to editors who use it to leverage the new thinking into ACTUAL editorial improvements in their work - compared to what they used to do in their traditional NLEs. "


Can you point us at examples where Professionals are claiming they can be more CREATIVE in FCPX? because much as I love FCPX I certainly wouldn't claim it's made me more creative in my editing, for me it's faster and it's much more fun but my editorial creativity comes from me NOT the NLE I'm using


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:25:04 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:37:30 pm

[Steve Connor] "Can you point us at examples where Professionals are claiming they can be more CREATIVE in FCPX? because much as I love FCPX I certainly wouldn't claim it's made me more creative in my editing, for me it's faster and it's much more fun but my editorial creativity comes from me NOT the NLE I'm using"


Read and enjoy...

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1571-old-school-magic-in-fcpx-a-br...
___
Some of what he said clipped from the article:

What baffles me about this software is the ability to layer an insane amount of effects and commands, and keep playing everything while you work in the timeline, even on this hardware. I love the instant feedback on what I do and I try not to think about what this machine is processing from shot to shot. The things I’m doing in my home office now I could only do with dedicated Shake or Flame stations 6>7 years ago.

I started off many years ago cutting on super 8, then 16mm, 35mm, Lightworks and Avid and then Final Cut. When I found Final Cut I knew I was at home.

I have edited television shows, docs, commercials and features on it. Then the new Final Cut came out and my dear friend and tech guru Sean Lander told me “Don’t get angry, don’t be impatient. Take the time to learn this system and you will never regret it”. He was spot on. It took me three days to get up to speed, but once I arrived I found I could edit in half the time I was used to.
___

Every high end X editor I know talks about the same thing. The productivity gains they achieve after learning X allows them to focus less on editing mechanics and focus more on being able to CREATE. They aren't as constrained to do things just ONE way because they know it's going to be a pain to reset if they go astray - so they feel free to experiment more. One of the first guys to bring this up specifically was Mike Matzdorff in his experience with using FCP X on Focus. It's an emerging theme with X editors and they mention is that it provides them with new freedom for more creative experimentation.



Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Hancock
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 9:46:18 pm

[Bill Davis] "They aren't as constrained to do things just ONE way because they know it's going to be a pain to reset if they go astray - so they feel free to experiment more"

Does this actually happen? Are there documented cases where a person has stated, "I'd like to try that idea but I might have to undo it if it doesn't work so I better not." You duplicate your sequence, you try the idea. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you go back to the previous version.

I can't imagine anyone editing professionally that would not explore a viable alternate cut simply because "it's going to be a pain to reset". This actually happens?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 10:35:46 pm

[Michael Hancock] "[Bill Davis] "They aren't as constrained to do things just ONE way because they know it's going to be a pain to reset if they go astray - so they feel free to experiment more"

Does this actually happen? Are there documented cases where a person has stated, "I'd like to try that idea but I might have to undo it if it doesn't work so I better not." You duplicate your sequence, you try the idea. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you go back to the previous version.

I can't imagine anyone editing professionally that would not explore a viable alternate cut simply because "it's going to be a pain to reset". This actually happens?"


So lets compare the two approaches.

As you say, the traditional editors starts by duplicating their sequence. Essentially creating a separate disconnected file of preserve their original intent. Edits it, then decides which they like. At the end they have two separate total timelines with ONE difference between them in play

Honestly, the simple process of just inserting or removing a scene into an X storyline is made so ridiculously easy via the magnetic timeline that where I used to see a 15 scene arrangement on my Legacy timeline as one cohesive "thing" that I needed to carefully preserve -(and therefore a thing needing to be duplicated intact, before I try something else) I now I see it as 15 blocks of work that I can deal with or move around at will. It's common for me to grab Scene 8 (with all it's attended connected clips!) - dupe and pop another clone of it after the original in my existing storyline - and then futz with the clone. If I improve it, it stays - but if I can't then I can just delete the entire arrangement, since everything is dependent on my primary storyline clip. It's the magic of working horizontally as well as vertically by default with magnetism holding everything together as I created it.

The legacy editor is working with Two storylines and a small change in one. The X editor is working with ONE storyline with two changes inside it.

In terms of focus on the task at hand, I'd argue that the ability to stay in a single window without the penalty of clip collisions or destructive overwrites makes the X system inherently more efficient. Add the X "snapshot" facility which makes extremely small persistent captures of the current state of your storyline quick and easy - and you get the best of both approaches.

Honestly, having a storyline that dynamically grows and shrinks based on what I put into it is a HUGE win for trying out ideas, IMO.

YMMV.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 10:43:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "The legacy editor is working with Two storylines and a small change in one. The X editor is working with ONE storyline with two changes inside it."

I have to respectfully disagree here Bill. Using Snapshots in X makes "branching" off of an existing sequence really easy, but it's the same process. Make a snapshot, continue editing, decide it doesn't work. Go back to snapshot and continue in another direction (with snapshots). I'll often have a dozen or more snapshots for a single cut. In 7 or Pr or MC I'd have a dozen duplicates. I do feel it's way quicker to do this in X and I prefer the X workflow, but in the end I'm doing the same thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 11:50:02 pm

I use Auditions for this (with dialogue/scripted driven pieces) and with the magnetic timeline it's so easy to flip all the takes around without having to make another sequence. This is one area of fcpx that would be hard to let go of if I needed to move to another NLE. The piece I'm working on now has so many takes per scene, all a little different, and Auditions in combination with the magnetic timeline makes it so easy to look at different options, and then go back to the original option if needed, without having to go back to another version of the timeline. It is a very different way of working than I did with FCP 7 or Pr. The timeline, with so many decisions available at a key press, is very creative, and helps to not only review all my options, but make changes on the fly as the edit evolves. I really like it and is a huge timeline strength in X.

In non scripted pieces, I use snapshots. What I like about snapshots is that you don't have to leave the current timeline, you simply hit the snapshot command and continue working. It's much more fluid than the other way of finding the timeline in some bin, duping, then renaming and either opening that version and closing another, and some variation therein. Those simple, yet super mundane and repetivitive tasks, do get out of the way in X, which makes me feel like it's more creative as I spend more time creating. But, like music, that is subjective. One person's Rolling Stones is another person's Chance the Rapper, if you know what I mean.


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 11:54:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "it's so easy to flip all the takes around without having to make another sequence"

If I could select a pile of 5 or 6 alternate shots and choose "make audition" in the timeline I'd use this feature a lot more than I do. And, if "Replace and add to Audition" could work with the as-yet-unimplemented match frame replace (replace using the original clips' duration) I would do a happy dance. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 12:02:07 am

[Charlie Austin] "If I could select a pile of 5 or 6 alternate shots and choose "make audition" in the timeline I'd use this feature a lot more than I do."

It would be nice, but I always match frame, add an "Audition" keyword, then find the 5 or 6 shots, make the Audition clip, and then replace that clip in the timeline with the Audition, then clear the Clips from the Audition keyword.

It sounds like more of a hassle than it is, but a decent way to make Audution clips from the timeline if doing it from the Browser is not feasible. It woikd be great to select them in the timeline and make an Audition, though. I find Auditions to be so useful, it's worth a little pain to set them up.


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 12:05:56 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "but I always match frame, add an "Audition" keyword, then find the 5 or 6 shots, make the Audition clip, and then replace that clip in the timeline with the Audition, then clear the Clips from the Audition keyword. "

nice trick. :-) It would be nice to do it with one right click though, like making a compound clip. Hopefully they'll add that when they dive into working on the timeline...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 12:19:51 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It would be nice, but I always match frame, add an "Audition" keyword, then find the 5 or 6 shots, make the Audition clip, and then replace that clip in the timeline with the Audition, then clear the Clips from the Audition keyword"

You guys are GOOD! I would write all this down, but I still might not understand it all... Thank you!

Scott

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 11:56:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I use Auditions for this (with dialogue/scripted driven pieces) and with the magnetic timeline it's so easy to flip all the takes around without having to make another sequence."

Auditions is one thing I'm looking forward to once I get time to mess around with X.


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Richard Herd
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 10:44:24 pm

Have you read Murch's book In the Blink of an Eye? He goes to great pains explaining how long they discussed story threads before they cut a frame. That was film. That was Apocalypse Now.

It's a good book.


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 11:44:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "If you feel different, post away. But there IS a growing body of evidence that X editors are encouraged to not just keep the editorial skills that they came to the software with - but to improve them - basically leveraging what X can do inside the editorial environment itself - that they either couldn't or just didn't do before. "

That's a pretty big leap. You are merely reacting to stories you see on FCP.co. They get placement because they are done on FCP X, not necessarily because of the edit itself. Granted the work is nice, but there are plenty of the same types of projects done on other NLE. They simply don't get the press because it isn't newsworthy within their own niche.

You are completely ignoring developments and innovations in other NLEs that X doesn't and can't do, but are standard within others.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 10:35:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "You are completely ignoring developments and innovations in other NLEs that X doesn't and can't do, but are standard within others."

Then Oliver, it would be absolutely great if you can share some of the stories coming out of the Premier or AVID world where there are new and exciting editorial options being developed or experimented with.

The threads here are an excellent example of how the magnetic timeline and aspects of X such as auditions and snapshots are CHANGING how specific editors are able to express their intent as they edit.

If there are equivalent aspects to the development of Premier or AVID - then by all means lets bring them to the table and let their stories be told.

Nobody here is putting up barriers to that that I'm aware of.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 10:54:45 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 3, 2015 at 10:58:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "Then Oliver, it would be absolutely great if you can share some of the stories coming out of the Premier or AVID world where there are new and exciting editorial options being developed or experimented with. "

You are assuming it has to be new. My point was that innovative things have been done for years with other NLEs, regardless of magnetic timelines. I only have to go back to something I did in 1999 for Walt Disney World Epcot. Do a search for "Illuminations Reflections of Earth" for the complete view (it's a mix of music, fireworks, video, lasers and lights).

This video is someone zoomed in on the earth globe barge, which is a 360 degree set of LED panels as video displays.







I edited and composited this using Media Composer 7 (the first 7). There are places with well over 50 layers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 8:56:33 am

[Oliver Peters] "I only have to go back to something I did in 1999 for Walt Disney World Epcot. Do a search for "Illuminations Reflections of Earth" for the complete view (it's a mix of music, fireworks, video, lasers and lights).
"


I saw that show, it was fantastic!


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 1:28:06 pm

Thanks. It took us a year to do the show. Some members of the Disney team worked as long as 4 years on it, starting with the earliest idea stage. It was a very rewarding experience, although it had plenty of challenges along the way. Frankly, I\'m amazed that they haven\'t replaced it yet.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 9:01:30 am

[Bill Davis] "If there are equivalent aspects to the development of Premier or AVID - then by all means lets bring them to the table and let their stories be told.

Nobody here is putting up barriers to that that I'm aware of."


Things like Avid's stereoscopic chops or their all, their encompassing vision for Avid Everywhere, Adobe's workflow on Gone Girl and Adobe Anywhere (and even the streamlining of the paths between PPro, AE and SpeedGrade) have all been brought up before. Usually though there are enough response in the vein of "that's too small of a niche to matter these days" or "that's not applicable to anything I'll ever do" or "that's not the type of innovation I'm talking about" that the conversation pretty much slides to a halt.


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 29, 2014 at 6:03:03 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Dec 30, 2014 at 10:28:58 am

I've kind of given up with this.

I find Avid counter intuitive but the vast majority of broadcast and high end commercials, features and drama work in the UK is done with Avid and most of the top editors in the UK would probably pick Avid as their favourite tool. Most of the best work is being cut with Avid still.

Who am I to tell them they are wrong?

Sure we read about the exceptions.

Is the story in the USA so different?

Of course it's a big world.

Is the story so different worldwide for the best work?

... this time next year perhaps?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 11:52:53 am

[James Ewart] "Who am I to tell them they are wrong?"

I wouldn't tell them they are wrong. I would tell them they work in a niche market where Avid is focused and strong. If you want to make a living in that niche, you better know Avid (and probably Premiere these days). But there is a huge world of visual storytelling going on out there that doesn't use one particular product. That's the bigger market. Not as visible to be sure, but a huge market.

[James Ewart] "Most of the best work is being cut with Avid still. "

Depends on your definition of "best work". What percentage of that work can be considered "good"? Just for a good debate, one could also say that the vast majority of commercials are conceptual crap (I also cut them for a living). Broadcast TV is almost unwatchable these days, being mostly reality, bad "comedy" or cop dramas. One has to comb through Netflix pretty good to find a well done movie. People are "cutting the cord" faster and faster to get only what they want. One could say this, correct? So where does that leave us? Avid cuts mostly crap? Is that inspirational marketing? I have never looked at the credits of a good movie to see what system is was cut on. Who cares? It's the cutter, not the box (for the millionth time!). :-)

IMHO, without coffee... :-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 4:35:46 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "People are "cutting the cord" faster and faster to get only what they want."

But what they want is more flexible access to the TV shows and movies they want to watch. They aren't leaving because of the content, they are leaving because of the distribution medium. Aside from a handful of 1st party shows (which could easily be on a cable/TV channel) Netflix, Hulu, Amazon streaming, Epix, VUDU, XBL, PSN, Google Play, HBOGO (coming soon), YouTube (their pay service), etc., all just redistribute existing movies and TV shows.


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James Culbertson
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 5:24:22 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "But what they want is more flexible access to the TV shows and movies they want to watch. They aren't leaving because of the content, they are leaving because of the distribution medium."

I still have basic cable through Comcast, but have not watched regular TV in years. I cut the cord because I (and my wife) want more flexibility, and because the content on regular TV is mostly crap. I still have a DVD plan through Netflix, but realized that neither I nor my wife have taken the time to request a DVD in probably 6 months. I'd probably jettison the DVD plan too if not for the occasional obscure movie I cannot find via download one way or another.

The other interesting phenomena I've noticed is that many young folks prefer to watch movies and TV shoes on small screens like an iPad. My wife prefers her little 13" MacBook to the large Plasma HDTV (and high quality audio system) in my home studio. I was resistant to this at first, but realize now that the immersive illusion is still complete even with small size and sucky audio.

I'd be curious to know how widespread these two trends are more generally.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 6:20:48 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Aside from a handful of 1st party shows (which could easily be on a cable/TV channel) Netflix, Hulu, Amazon streaming, Epix, VUDU, XBL, PSN, Google Play, HBOGO (coming soon), YouTube (their pay service), etc., all just redistribute existing movies and TV shows."

Yes, but we get what we like...without having to put up with the "conceptual crap" and the networks. Subscription based television.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 6:51:59 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Dec 30, 2014 at 7:38:48 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Yes, but we get what we like...without having to put up with the "conceptual crap" and the networks. Subscription based television."

Right, people want content the studios and networks are pumping out they just don't want the commercials (which pay for the content) or the appointment viewing (which ties into the commercials that pay for the content). And as far as quality goes... one man's steak is another man's cardboard. For example, I don't care for Duck Dynasty, but it's one of the highest rated shows ever on Cable TV. Obviously a whole lot of people like it, I'm just not one of them.

My point is, as much as people complain about TV/cable networks and movie studios people still flock to the content produced and/or made available because of the TV/cable networks and movie studios. If streaming providers only offered original content (and for the sake of argument pirating didn't exist) there would be a lot lot fewer cord cutters.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 12:58:58 am

[Andrew Kimery] "They aren't leaving because of the content, they are leaving because of the distribution medium."

I would say that they are leaving because most of the content is crap no matter what the distribution method is. So why pay a cable company $90 a month where you an pay Netflix $8/month and find what you want. And cut out the commercials.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:27:47 am

[Scott Witthaus] "I would say that they are leaving because most of the content is crap no matter what the distribution method is. So why pay a cable company $90 a month where you an pay Netflix $8/month and find what you want. And cut out the commercials."

If the content is such crap why is it so popular on Netflix? What the cord cuttings are watching on Netflix is kinda surprising, IMO (research is from CBS, emphasis is mine).

"He found that Netfix subscribers are spending about 1.1 billion hours a year watching the service’s five original programs. Compare that to the 800 million hours they spend watching NCIS reruns on Netflix. In fact, according to Poltrack, Netflix subscribers only spent 6.6 percent of their time watching Netflix originals.

What were the two most popular shows on Netflix? NBC’s The Blacklist and ABC’s Once Upon A Time, which combined to amount to 7% of Netflix’s viewership. In other words, subscribers watch more of The Blacklist and Once Upon a Time than they do all of Netflix’s original content."


http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/12/the-two-most-popular-shows-on-netflix-are-not-...


Keep in mind that canceled TV shows that Netflix picked up (like The Killing and Arrested Development) would fall under the Netflix original's banner.

Cord cutters seem to be similar to people that prefer carry-out. They want the restaurant's food, they just don't want to eat it at the restaurant.

A problem with saying most of the content is crap that no one wants to watch is who/what defines "crap"? Is crap something that doesn't pull big enough ratings? Something that doesn't satisfy mainstream America? Something that doesn't satisfy art-house America? The highest rated show in history of Animal Planet is a fake documentary on Mermaids (no, I'm not kidding). Personally I think that's pretty crappy but ratings would say otherwise. Transformers: Age of Extinction was the highest grossing movie globally last year (over 1 billion world wide, #5 highest grossing domestically)) and it has an 18% or Rotten Tomatoes. 18%! Maybe a lot of people just like crap?

Of course Netflix streaming is only good for back-catalog viewing. For current viewing you need some sort of combination of Hulu+, iTunes or Amazon streaming and the upcoming (and yet to be priced) HBOGO. Of course now this gets into the related issue of costing savings between a la carte streaming and Cable/sat subscription services. While people may cut the cord for cable TV they still need the cord for the Internet and in most of America the Internet cord and the Cable TV cord are owned by the same company (and there's no competing owners in the same areas). Comcast (or whomever) will get their pound of flesh. While the Comcast/TWC merger is still the big one in the news, a less talked about one is AT&T and DirecTV. That merger would make two companies lagging behind into a contender. AT&T what's DirecTV's content subscribers and DirecTV want's AT&T's Internet subscribers. Going back to Comcast for a second, their acquisition of NBC/Universal looks just brilliant in hindsight. Comcast sees the trend of cord cutting starting so their acquire NBC/Univ and all of a sudden Comcast is in the content production game, the CATV distribution game and the ISP game (and by extension the IPTV distribution game). Very forward looking move from the leader of an industry that people love to rag on for being behind the times. Adapt or die. Sometimes the adaption isn't what you expected so be careful what you wish for.

Anyway, now I'm totally rambling. Back on point.... If you don't watch that many shows cutting the cord is cheaper per month than cable, but if you really like TV (and/or can't stand the 1-day new episodes are delayed before streaming) then cable is still the better deal. I don't watch a lot of TV (content) so it's been pretty painless for me to be cable-free the last 4/5 years. Many people keep banging the drum for more companies to offer over-the-top IPTV services (like HBOGO or CBS All Access) but I think those people will be surprised how quickly all these individual subscriptions will surpass the cost of the cable bill they are trying to run away form.


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 5:06:46 pm

I can't disagree with anything you say Scott and maybe 'best' was the wrong word.

Biggest budgets maybe?

For sure I am pleased Apple decided to upset the apple cart (bad pun sorry) and what is strangest to me is how threatened a lot of people have become not just by FCP Legacy way back when but even more so by X recently. The response has been emotional more than rational. Why I wonder?

What's the threat? Just learn it and use it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 5:26:48 pm

[James Ewart] " what is strangest to me is how threatened a lot of people have become not just by FCP Legacy way back when but even more so by X recently. The response has been emotional more than rational. Why I wonder?

What's the threat? Just learn it and use it."


I'm not personally aware of anyone threatened by X. If you are a broadcast or film editor how can you be threatened by a product with virtually zero market penetration in your area. I do know a lot of people pissed at Apple for the demise of Legacy, a demise that dead ended the fastest growing and most promising NLE workflow in existence. This anger is focused on X as the culprit by folks who have no use for X's inovations -- at the moment. But how you can go from that to the meme that "editors feel threatened by X" I don't quite understand.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 5:58:09 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Dec 31, 2014 at 6:55:04 am

I would say that the negativity I experience towards FCPX (that echoes Legacy) is irrational and has an agenda. What could that agenda be?

I also know for sure that facilities and broadcasters with huge investments in Avid technology wanted FCP Legacy to fail that X represents an even greater threat to them. They have overheads to pay in expensive parts of town and old kit they do not want to renew until they absolutely have to. A new kid in town is an expensive option for them. They would rather it failed.

As for zero market penetration. No not zero. It's certainly not zero. Not at the BBC anyway. Okay the BBC is tiny in context but over here people watch what they do. Like Walter Murch it's seal of approval.

Read the forums and read the vitriol directed at FCPX from various quarters and tell me that does not smack of threatened. If not threatened then what is it please? Why would they care?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 6:39:48 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I'm not personally aware of anyone threatened by X."

I see it here and there. These were probably the same type of people that felt threatened by videotape tape when they were film editors, NLEs when they were videotape editors and FCP Legend when they were Avid editors. Typically, and I'm painting with a very broad brush here, these types of people seemed to be in businesses because they owned gear that few people could afford. As the financial barrier to entry lowered they faced competition and quickly freaked out because they could no longer just coast by. Whether it's from NLEs, DSLRS or Gutenberg's printing press, there will always be a segment of the population fearful of the democratization of their industry. Never mind the fact that pen & paper, footballs and guitars are available to damn near everyone in the industrialized world yet people still make a living as writers, athletes and musicians.

What I find most hilarious is when it's FCP Legend users complaining about being 'undercut' by FCPX users when, 10-15yrs ago, FCP Legend allowed them to 'undercut' editors using Avid.

[James Ewart] "I also know for sure that facilities and broadcasters with huge investments in Avid technology wanted FCP Legacy to fail that X represents an even greater threat to them. They have overheads to pay in expensive parts of town and old kit they do not want to renew until they absolutely have to"

Really? Which facilities? I ask out of curiosity because in LA, in my experience, I didn't know of any big facilities/productions that wanted FCP Legend to fail. If anything I think many of them liked that FCP Legend became 'good enough' so that they could ditch their Avids because of the gigantic price difference at the time. I feel like I'd be hard pressed to find a business that wouldn't go for an option that offers very similar performance for a whole lot less money. That type of disparity is over though as all of the NLEs are very affordable these days.

[James Ewart] "Why would they care?"
For the same reason that some people care enough to convince the world that everyone should be using FCPX? Mac vs PC? Chevy vs Ford? All are emotional responses that defy logic.


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Herb Sevush
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 7:45:12 pm

[James Ewart] "I would say that the negativity I experience towards FCPX (that echoes Legacy) is irrational and has an agenda."

If it's irrational, than by definition it doesn't have an agenda. And I agree that it's not rational, it's emotional.

[James Ewart] "As for zero market penetration. No not zero. It's certainly not zero. Not at the BBC anyway. Okay the BBC is tiny in context but over here people watch what they do. Like Walter Murch it's seal of approval."

Your right, I'm guilty of a "Bill Davis" -- a factual exaggeration to make a point. Very limited penetration would be more accurate.

[James Ewart] "Read the forums and read the vitriol directed at FCPX from various quarters and tell me that does not smack of threatened. If not threatened then what is it please? Why would they care?"

It sounds like a jilted lover to me.

[James Ewart] "Well that doesn't make sense as they must have very short memories. Surely FCPX is the next most promising NLSE and if not, why not?"

Well from your point of view X might be the most promising. From my point of a view it's a wankel rotary engine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine ) in that it's advantages when balanced against it's disadvantages make the price of novelty a bit high for my tastes. YMMV and it obviously does.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 8:17:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Well from your point of view X might be the most promising. From my point of a view it's a wankel rotary engine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine ) in that it's advantages when balanced against it's disadvantages make the price of novelty a bit high for my tastes. YMMV and it obviously does."

Great to see you back Herb!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 30, 2014 at 11:49:53 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Dec 30, 2014 at 11:56:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "From my point of a view it's a wankel rotary engine"

rather. also, the bbc thing is overstated I think. That is a city, and in a village in that city, regarding factual, certain people are being trained.

5,000 licenses of creative suite 5.5 premiere pro were bought and we all now know that meant nothing. BBC extruded those licenses as a digestive function. although BBCWW is going ppro cc as a mortal lock.

the point, if we're going to get emotional, lies with the essential chi of FCPX, it's reason for being, and how it breathes. Does it breathe like pages, does it breathe like aperture, does it breathe like FCP 7, does it breathe like shake or colour, or any other software adventure apple ever undertook transitioning to the most powerful corporation on earth.

asking if FCPX is going to be ok and well tended for is like asking an olympian dragon if they're going to make it rain. Apple is that far in the sky, and they've been that way for a while. They are god level corporate capricious, and if you're confused, ask yourself, as you hold your new special magnetic powers, whether the aperture people are currently left holding their own... well, finish that sentence.

gods do get bored. It's a hallmark.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 12:19:24 am

Good to see you back Aindreas. :-)

[Aindreas Gallagher] does it breathe like pages

If I recall correctly, Pages still exists. It's really good and improving quickly.

[Aindreas Gallagher] does it breathe like aperture

Have you seen the replacement for Aperture? Please share details...

[Aindreas Gallagher] does it breathe like FCP 7

It's replacement, FCP X, crushes FCP 7, whether you or anyone else like it is another story.

[Aindreas Gallagher] does it breathe like shake or colour,

Now those are dead, but parts of both still exist in current apps. In the case of Color, Apple probably decided that competing with great, free apps wasn't worth it. But who knows...

Another one you forgot is: Does it breath like Logic?

[Aindreas Gallagher] "ask yourself, as you hold your new special magnetic powers, whether the aperture people are currently left holding their own... well, finish that sentence.
"


I could just as easily claim that the new Photos app will be 100 times better than Aperture. But I have no idea, and neither do you. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 12:44:27 am

[Charlie Austin] "Now those are dead, but parts of both still exist in current apps. In the case of Color, Apple probably decided that competing with great, free apps wasn't worth it. But who knows..."

Resolve Lite was announced at NAB 2011 so I'd guess Color's fate was sealed long before that. Apple's plans to kill Color probably go back as far as the plans to reboot FCP from the ground up. Also, Color was tossed in to the Final Cut Suite at no additional charge so it was pretty much free vs free anyway. Many FCP Legend users thought Color's interface was byzantine so it's not really a shocker that it wouldn't fit into the vision Apple had for X.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:33:48 am
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:50:00 am

[Charlie Austin] "It's replacement, FCP X, crushes FCP 7, whether you or anyone else like it is another story. "

that's entertaining as a sentence given the inevitable implications for you in the near future.

presumably the next bifurcation of FCPX will be a three dimensional editing space with your favourite clips and tagged tunes attaching themselves to the database in a high speed whirlwind. you read cupertino tea leaves at the end of the edit, and offer small snacks to the gods.

ok - granted you will barely be in control, but at some point you'll step back and say - "what wind truth will the primary and the secondary storyline perform today? Is my mind at one with the apple deep instruction?"

Is your arm bound to your leg and are you hopping around like a lunatic? that - at least in terms on the timeline, is an issue for X.

You're all hopping around on one leg with tribal feathers in your hair constantly shouting that everything is ok here.

it's not.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:48:22 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "You're all hopping around on one leg with tribal feathers in your hair constantly shouting that everything is ok here.

it's not."


Here's the thing, I can cut in whatever I want. I own or rent all the "A" NLE's, as well the R NLE and a couple others. I'm quite proficient in at least 3, if you include FCP 7, and I could be back to "get a gig" speed in MC in about 2 days if I needed to be.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the only NLE I ever use is X. You are mis-informed. If FCP X disappeared tomorrow the only effect it would have on me would be that I'd have to cut in an NLE that I don't really like. I've gotten quite used to the alternative to track tetris, but I can still play that old game. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:08:13 am
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:21:40 am

[Charlie Austin] "Here's the thing, I can cut in whatever I want. "

baaaa. X has these hard core adherents, but so few speak the truth. They revel in fight.
Charlie when will we know when you have cut in?

when can we together turn as one to strangle old FCPX?

but we light a fire, Suvesh advances through the trees.
X is unguarded and Herb is, as I understand it, effectively from Jersey.


http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:47:00 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Charlie when will we know when you have cut in?"

Well, for some random reason this week I've been cutting in FCP 7. It's awful. ;-)

[Aindreas Gallagher] "when can we together turn as one to strangle old FCPX?

but we light a fire, Suvesh advances through the trees.
X is unguarded and Herb is, as I understand it, effectively from Jersey."


Too late, I'm afraid FCP X is undead Aindreas.







-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 11:16:39 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "You're all hopping around on one leg with tribal feathers in your hair constantly shouting that everything is ok here.

it's not."


So saith the eternal curmudgeon room-bound and watching the Carnival traipse by outside.

Imagine the sadness if it turns out that everything IS ok out here - and we leave the streets with new friends, laughing and re-energized for our work and our lives.

After all, Amigo, YOU were the guy who kept saying that X would NEVER be suitable for "real work." Not just once in passing, but over and over and over and over and over again.

Yet, here we are, 2015. A banner year for X in real production environments in the post Libraries era.

These small explosions of X joy at the movies and on TV and around the world in the past year?

Well, perhaps again, the best strategy is to go back and return to what's always worked before. Draw the drapes. Put something loud on the Victrola in your brain. And wait til the postman commeth. Hopefully, there won't be a note from Adobe about an issue with your subscription.

Ever.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 12:09:11 pm

[Charlie Austin] "In the case of Color, Apple probably decided that competing with great, free apps wasn't worth it. But who knows..."

Though I'm not sure the timeline (ha!) supports this theory, the idea that Apple would not wish to compete against a lower-cost offering -- after they themselves salted this particular field a couple years earlier -- is a little horrifying, no?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 11:32:13 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Charlie Austin] "In the case of Color, Apple probably decided that competing with great, free apps wasn't worth it. But who knows..."

Though I'm not sure the timeline (ha!) supports this theory, the idea that Apple would not wish to compete against a lower-cost offering -- after they themselves salted this particular field a couple years earlier -- is a little horrifying, no?
"


I don't think so.

I think they just clearly saw that inside an NLE, the main necessity is color CORRECTION. Which they can handle with sublime ease with the color board. (and LUTS for the ever evolving field files)

And they stepped aside from the fools mission of engineering in color GRADING tools, because - well - maybe it's like music, where the number of people who wish to perform is way less than the number of those who wish to compose?

The color board plus LUTS for the editors - trackballs and nodal workflows for the graders.

Put the correct tools in the correct hands - and let the complexity of the music making tools be scalable to the needs of the differing constituencies that wish to make the music?

Could it be as simple as that?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 12:21:50 am

[Bill Davis] "Could it be as simple as that?"

As simple as Apple targeting people that, among other duties, need to do some color correction as opposed to targeting people that grade day in and day out for a living? Yes, I think it is entirely that simple. Like with Shake, Apple had a product that went too far down the rabbit hole for their comfort level so they killed it and pulled whatever scraps they found useful off the bones. Final Cut Server probably falls into this category as well.


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 6:18:09 am

Bill Davis And they stepped aside from the fools mission of engineering in color GRADING tools, because - well - maybe it's like music, where the number of people who wish to perform is way less than the number of those who wish to compose?

Well for sure that's where I'm at.

Are we forgetting the price of FCPX?


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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 8:59:06 am

[Bill Davis] "I think they just clearly saw that inside an NLE, the main necessity is color CORRECTION. Which they can handle with sublime ease with the color board. ("

The Colour board is great, but not adding keyframes to it is a big omission, fortunately fixed by third party plugins


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 11:13:08 am

[Bill Davis] "Could it be as simple as that?"

Yes, I think so.

I don't believe Apple dropped Color in response to price pressure from a free Resolve, but I do believe that the reasonable idea that someone might withdraw from the market under such circumstances should make us think about what exactly we're asking the developers of our software to do.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 1:24:54 pm

"I don't believe Apple dropped Color in response to price pressure from a free Resolve, but I do believe that the reasonable idea that someone might withdraw from the market under such circumstances should make us think about what exactly we're asking the developers of our software to do."

It could also be as simple as Steve Jobs saying WTF is this? And it was gone. According to rumors, that's what happened to the mythical FCP 8 / FCP Extreme and the team that was developing it. Hence the return to Randy Ubilos to do something completely different.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 4:43:51 pm

FCP Extreme???


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 5:47:13 pm

[James Ewart] \"FCP Extreme???\"

An extremely (pun time!) old and, IMO, unfounded rumor about Apple creating a $10,000 super duper high end version of FCP. It sits on the shelf of improbability right next to the Phenomenon rumor (totally re-imagined, high end, next generation version of Shake).


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 5, 2015 at 1:11:55 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[James Ewart] \"FCP Extreme???\"
.... unfounded rumor about Apple creating a $10,000 super duper high end version of FCP. It sits on the shelf of improbability right next to the Phenomenon rumor...."


That's the app, but I'm not so sure the rumor is unfounded. For every outlandish rumor, there's a kernel of truth at its core.

Extreme was supposed to combine Motion and Color capabilities into FCP. This is essentially what Smoke is now and in a very different way, exactly what FCP X is, too. Although I don't know anything in particular, the comments I've heard told from folks close to the inside (but not Apple staff) is that the FCP team was on the way to developing a complex version of FCP that would become FCP 8. It wasn't turning out well and Jobs didn't like what he was seeing and that set the path to change course and develop what has become FCP X. Maybe the truth or many just urban legend.

As far as Phenomenon, that's a bit less unfounded. The Shake designers left to work on Nuke and on the way out posted some comments on line expressing their disillusionment with lack of development on the next-gen Shake. I think what they had in mind for Phenomenon worked its way into Nuke.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 5, 2015 at 2:07:58 am

[Oliver Peters] "That's the app, but I'm not so sure the rumor is unfounded. For every outlandish rumor, there's a kernel of truth at its core."

Unfounded might have been too strong a term, but the FCP Extreme and Phenomenon rumors were undoubtedly based on such extremely early ideas/concepts that saying Apple's working on a self-driving car probably has the same level of validity. I mean, the rumored price of FCP E was $10k and there would be a hardware I/O to go with it running Cell processors. Is there some rough idea of this thing on a shelf (virtual or physical) in Apple's basement? Probably. Did it ever have a chance of seeing the light of day as shipping product? I'm gonna go with a big, fat No. ;)


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 5, 2015 at 2:16:15 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Unfounded might have been too strong a term, but the FCP Extreme and Phenomenon rumors were undoubtedly based on such extremely early ideas/concepts that saying Apple's working on a self-driving car probably has the same level of validity."

I would agree. I think another way to look at this might be as an evolution of Steve Jobs' thinking. If you look at his views towards computing hardware with NeXT and even Pixar (initially a computer vendor), it was decidedly high-end workstation. My gut feeling is that he may well have carried these ideas with him upon return to Apple. Once there that thinking changed towards one that was more design-focused than even the first Mac days. This was probably a many-year-long change. In that time, video-centric technologies were acquired and I'm sure a lot of interesting things were tried in the back rooms. Most were harvested for technology that made its way into more egalitarian products.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:20:50 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "whether the aperture people are currently left holding their own... "

Consider the difference in this case. Apple announced EOL in advance and, in the meantime, Aperture is still for sale. The test will be how well one can transition from Aperture to Photos and what the functionality is. I think one change, as noted in iOS, is a form of third party plugin support. Could be Apple has learned from the X release.



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:28:58 am

[Craig Seeman] "The test will be how well one can transition from Aperture to Photos and what the functionality is."

While true, there might not be that many Aperture users left. A lot migrated to Lightroom. So in reality, Apple might not have as much to lose.

(Cynic mode on) Of course, if their UI design is as awful and eye-strain-inducing as Yosemite, then I don't see many shifting from Lightroom back to Photos. Honestly most of their latest moves seem designed (more blatantly than ever before) to sell new hardware, like Retina iMacs. I would certainly imagine that's the main purpose for Photos - as well as iCloud Drive, which, of course, helps to see more phones. (Cynic mode off)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:36:22 am

[Oliver Peters] "Of course, if their UI design is as awful and eye-strain-inducing as Yosemite,"

FWIW, Use Dark Menu/Dock, and check increase contrast in accessibility settings. Much nicer. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:45:41 am

[Charlie Austin] "FWIW, Use Dark Menu/Dock, and check increase contrast in accessibility settings. Much nicer. :-)"

I tried that. Makes the UI even worse. Contrast also messes with the display setting which isn't great for video. Basically the Apple UI guys played hockey the day that the design class taught about readability.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:50:26 am

[Oliver Peters] "I tried that. Makes the UI even worse. Contrast also messes with the display setting which isn't great for video. "

Fair enough. :-) I kinda like it, and they are tweaking it with every update. Did you try the public beta? That was painful...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:56:52 am

[Charlie Austin] "Did you try the public beta? That was painful..."

No. I held off until 10.10.1. Any idea whether 10.10.2 is any better? I think it's in developer hands. Do you sense any improvement with FCP X in Yosemite? I'm on a 2009 MP and it feels slightly snappier, but it could just be wishful thinking. Core audio has been changed enough to mess with the third party peripherals. My Mbox2 doesn't work any longer and the Apogee guys are saying do not upgrade yet.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 3:00:46 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Dec 31, 2014 at 3:06:50 am

[Oliver Peters] "Any idea whether 10.10.2 is any better? "

Don't really know... Hopefully the UI is getting more tweaks as well as the usual bug squishing.

[Oliver Peters] "Do you sense any improvement with FCP X in Yosemite? I'm on a 2009 MP and it feels slightly snappier, but it could just be wishful thinking. Core audio has been changed enough to mess with the third party peripherals."

It does seem a bit faster to me as well, though not really quantifiable. Pr and even FCP 7 do too, so maybe it's the Kool-Aide. ;-) I think the changes to the Core Foundations, as well as the new Extension thingies open up some interesting possibilities.

Also, something's happening with scripting, evidenced by the fact that X2Pro now hooks into FCP X. FCP X doesn't have a Dictionary (I looked) but there's a ProVideo Asset Management suite which X2Pro uses. I think that's new...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:55:56 am

[Oliver Peters] "Basically the Apple UI guys played hockey the day that the design class taught about readability."

Hockey? I think of them as more the Frisbee golf type.


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Walter Soyka
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 12:10:02 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Basically the Apple UI guys played hockey the day that the design class taught about readability."

That must be when they learned to skate to where the puck is going.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:30:04 pm

Hooky, darn it. Hooky! Stupid spell check! ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:00:29 am

[Oliver Peters] "While true, there might not be that many Aperture users left. A lot migrated to Lightroom. So in reality, Apple might not have as much to lose."

Probably, in part, due to more bad (or actually no) marketing from Apple. They've done virtually NOTHING to even hint that Photos will allow a smooth transition of libraries and something that might approach a similar feature set (even if implemented differently).

[Oliver Peters] "Honestly most of their latest moves seem designed (more blatantly than ever before) to sell new hardware, like Retina iMacs. I would certainly imagine that's the main purpose for Photos"

Superficially I can't see that as their intent because it would mean even more motive to buy a Mac than iPhoto offered (and to some extent Aperture).

I think their intent might simply be unification of code and much better integration into the ecosystem than either iPhone or Aperture could do.



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:12:00 am

[Craig Seeman] "Probably, in part, due to more bad (or actually no) marketing from Apple. They've done virtually NOTHING to even hint that Photos will allow a smooth transition of libraries and something that might approach a similar feature set (even if implemented differently)."

I don't think it has much to do with marketing. Aperture was first out of the gate with a product that initially defined the genre. Although Aperture and Lightroom versions tended to leapfrog each other, many Aperture users simply got tired of waiting for Apple and moved over to Lightroom. FWIW - Aperture also uses a non-standard naming convention (Libraries and Projects) as compared with Lightroom (Folders and sub-folders).

[Craig Seeman] "I think their intent might simply be unification of code and much better integration into the ecosystem than either iPhone or Aperture could do."

While that may be right, I do believe they are endeavoring to develop applications that require the performance of their newer machines, without a lot of concern for existing customers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:35:35 am

[Oliver Peters] "Aperture users simply got tired of waiting for Apple"

Not unlike FCP users who saw not much change from the release of FCP6 in 2007, although, they had no compelling competitor to move to. Even in 2011, Adobe had a lot of work ahead of them to make PPro more attractive. Aperture users have Lightroom. I still think Apple could have made a case to wait for the "awesome" thing coming.

[Oliver Peters] "I do believe they are endeavoring to develop applications that require the performance of their newer machines,"

Yes they are a hardware company or, at least, an eco-system company. They want the pieces to work together and they want you to keep buying new pieces. I find it no more distasteful than those wiling to submit to Adobe's subscriptions. Each has a price to pay.

I don't doubt that Apple is aware that all their competitors have an OS exit plan as each is cross platform except Apple. They are faced with providing a compelling reason to stay Mac.

BTW iCloud Drive and iTunes both are available on Windows as means to offer iOS users a means to "exit" the other way.

I can't predicate success (and Apple certainly fails at times) but I can't help but think Photos is part of an effort to move more people to Macs.



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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:42:41 am

[Craig Seeman] "BTW iCloud Drive and iTunes both are available on Windows as means to offer iOS users a means to "exit" the other way."

Which is ironic, considering you can't use iCloud Drive with 10.9.5 or iOS versions older than iOS7. That's looking out for your customers. :-/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 2:50:23 am

[Oliver Peters] "Which is ironic, considering you can't use iCloud Drive with 10.9.5 or iOS versions older than iOS7. That's looking out for your customers. :-/
"


True, but plain vanilla iCloud still works as it always did. You want the new hotness you gotta update.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:20:11 pm

[Charlie Austin] "True, but plain vanilla iCloud still works as it always did. "

Actually, no it doesn't. During the "beta" period for iCloud Pages, Numbers, Keynote, you could log in and make online document revisions and create new documents. This was compatible with all versions of iPad and Mac (at least Mavericks). You might have to save and upload a backwards compatible version, but it was interchangeable, including online with sharing from a Windows machine without any special add-on. That functionally was completely wiped out with iCloud Drive.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 3:33:52 am

[Oliver Peters] "Which is ironic, considering you can't use iCloud Drive with 10.9.5 or iOS versions older than iOS7. That's looking out for your customers. :-/"

But the OS updates are free. Apple wants you to keep moving forward. As one moves forward with the "free" software one gets the "incentive" to upgrade hardware as the performance suffers... but the feature beckon (at least in theory).



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Steve Connor
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Feb 5, 2015 at 6:37:06 pm

"Photos" has finally appeared as part of the new 10.10.3 beta

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/02/05/apple-10-10-3-photos-app/


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 7:11:14 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "gods do get bored. It's a hallmark.
"


That's why the gods will god themselves from our learnings over the last few millennia. We will bore them no more.







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James Ewart
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Dec 31, 2014 at 7:23:33 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Dec 31, 2014 at 7:39:45 am

From my point of a view it's a wankel rotary engine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine ) in that it's advantages when balanced against it's disadvantages make the price of novelty a bit high for my tastes

Ah I remember the NSU RO80 "The car of the future" with a wankel engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_Ro_80Thy released it in Beta and nobody ever forgave them. Shame ... it was a wonderful car. If only more people had seen its potential.


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Bill Davis
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 11:03:00 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[James Ewart] "As for zero market penetration. No not zero. It's certainly not zero. Not at the BBC anyway. Okay the BBC is tiny in context but over here people watch what they do. Like Walter Murch it's seal of approval."

Your right, I'm guilty of a "Bill Davis" -- a factual exaggeration to make a point. Very limited penetration would be more accurate. "


Doubt I often exaggerated FACT. I'm usually pretty careful about that. Most often I employed the sharpened stick of hyperbole against what I saw as the dragons of stubbornness and intransigence.

It matters not. 4 year on, I feel like I've largely won all my early debates in my own 20/20 hindsight. X was never for edit kiddies. The changes in X WERE for professional advancement. And bottom line, I'm still actually cutting faster, delivering with less friction and generally WAY happier in my editing today than I was 4 years ago. That's what I hoped for - and that's what came true.

It's also nice that I've got more company today than I did 4 years ago. Instead of chatting about X strategies with a couple of folks, I have dozens and sometimes hundreds of peers to chat with on-line. Whole websites to visit where nobody cares about the debate - but rather where everyone understands the value of the tool and so can happily focus on investigating it's many faceted aspects of usefulness. All of which is, I must say, delightful.

I do wonder what NAB will bring this year. or 2015 in X development in general.

Exciting times.

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Andrew Kimery
Re: RedShark News: Opinion: Which are the best NLEs right now?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 9:18:10 am

[Bill Davis] "Whole websites to visit where nobody cares about the debate - but rather where everyone understands the value of the tool and so can happily focus on investigating it's many faceted aspects of usefulness. All of which is, I must say, delightful. "

Out of curiosity Bill, what is it you get out of this forum? Do you enjoy the discussions? Is your goal to convert people to X? I guess where I'm going with this is, do you like what this form has to offer or would you rather it be like those other forums you talk about which are populated by people that all use X, are all happy with X, and only want to talk about using X?

Personally I typically enjoy the discussions that go on here. If I want to talk specifically about an NLE (be it X, Avid, Legend, Lightworks, PPro, etc.,) there are many places to do that on the Internet, but I haven't come across very many places like this forum.


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