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"Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off

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Adam Trojan
"Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 4:18:25 am

Really?? What his this crap?

Apple please give a pref to turn this pro-sumer gimmick off. I want to be able to edit for real as I want. Not like you want.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:58:38 am

[Adam Trojan] "Apple please give a pref to turn this pro-sumer gimmick off. I want to be able to edit for real as I want. Not like you want.
"

The intent of the magnetic timeline is, as far as I can see, not to make editing easier for newbies, but to get out of the way so editors can focus on editing instead of futzing with clips. Most of what the magnetic timeline does is just about having more reasonable defaults. If you have clips A, B, C, and you drag C so its head is lined up with B's, do you really want to overwrite B with C? Probably 99 times out of 100, you don't. You want to swap their positions. In FCP 7, this requires a modifier key (which you have to hit after you start dragging, because if you hit it before it has a totally different function). In FCP X, swapping is the default behavior. You really want overwriting? That's what the Position tool is for.

Do these more reasonable defaults make the app easier to use for consumers? Sure. But that's because they make more sense, not because they remove control. I'm unclear precisely what it is about an interface that makes more sense that supposedly makes it unsuitable for professional users.

Even clip collisions are like this. I've seen complaints about how people don't want FCP X moving clips to other tracks of its own volition. But it's important to remember that FCP X is a trackless editor. It's not bumping clips to other tracks; it's just displaying them one above another as a way of showing them both to you at the same time.

I think particularly this last behavior is a serious area of misunderstanding and cause of resentment. A lot of people seem to be looking at the FCP X timeline as having tracks they can't control. But that's not really the case. Rather, it has clip connections which are precisely controllable by the user. Vertical space is just used to help display the clip connections the user has specified as clearly as possible.

Complaining you can't control the exact details of this use of vertical space is analogous to complaining that a text editor displays flowing text, instead of allowing each character to be individually positioned within the window.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:24:47 am

[Chris Kenny] "Complaining you can't control the exact details of this use of vertical space is analogous to complaining that a text editor displays flowing text, instead of allowing each character to be individually positioned within the window."

lol

yes, it's so genius and we're all muttonheads for not getting it


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Ben Holmes
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:28:27 am

Jamie

I understand why you're frustrated with Chris's opinion, as it contradicts your own - but there are also a lot of posts here already from people posting for the first time, who may not in some cases (I don't know in this case) that they actually CAN slide stuff around their timeline pretty much as they used to - just using different tools. Personally, I didn't even notice the gap behavior when I started working - to me, once I used the position tool, I was away. It confused the hell out of me at the start though - so I can see some of these posts in that light.

That doesn't mean I think 'you don't get it' or I'm saying you're stupid. Far from it - it's clear the new timeline is marmite - you'll love it or hate it. Personally I care far more about 'how fast' and 'how well' I can tell the story I have to tell. Speed is essential to me - I work in live broadcast - so I approach it from a different angle. I WANT FCPX to succeed, because it shows promise in areas that matter to me. I also see a lot of complexity in it that FOR ME makes it a potentially pro software package. I don't know anything about your experience and usage (filling out your profile here helps people to understand where you're coming from - and if you're new to the game, a gifted amateur, or a grizzled pro), so it makes it harder for me to understand your own views. Actually, of late, what I see are comments like this - posts declaiming people as patronising, or claiming they're putting down your views or experience.

Don't be defensive - get your views across. As I've made clear, I don't know enough about X yet to decide if I can go forward with it - you clearly feel you have made that choice, and I'd like to hear why. Accusations and lols don't help me or others.

Ultimately, if you've already decided X is not for you, why not spend your time looking at alternatives? I can only assume you believe that the angry discourse here will change the views of Apple. I don't. I think other people have made far more eloquent and telling criticisms of the product. Together, these will turn Apple's head a little - lead to more info from them. But it won't change their course. I hope, like everyone else, that 7 will go back on sale. In the meantime, I bought the last two copies my reseller had so I can continue to work for the next twelve months. I can decide later about X - my gear is never a major part of my costs, these days it pays for itself many times over. I guess we have Apple to thank for that.

I've been a member here since 2004 I think. In this time, it's been a valuable resource when I've made critical decisions in how I'll feed my kids (I have two boys) for the next five years. Unfortunately, at the moment I can't do that here, and I think that's a shame. Whether you like it or not, you are currently making this forum a less pleasant place to be. Please be respectful (even in the face of views you disagree with strongly) or please leave.

Ben

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04:35 am

With the greatest of respect Ben, this is a forum, and you are in no position whatsoever to start telling people to leave. If you do not like the tenor of the comments right now - fine - but this forum doesn't exist to reflect your requirements, or your tastes in topics.

FWIW, although the user date doesn't show it, I've been here since day one when it was just AE - I came from the silver list and wwug - I love what the cow has grown into - an open forum for equal discussion. I agree, I think we've all said most of what we have to say here, but if someone wants to swing the bat a few more times, or if they find something new and annoying and want to gripe about it, that is entirely up to them Ben, it's really nothing to do with you.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Pollard
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 12:32:45 pm

Well said Ben. It's getting so it's hardly worth the effort to click most of the posts here open.

When people talk about some of the features lacking I have sympathy, but I have a lot less for "this isn't the way I'm used to doing it". It's new to me too. And I'm in my fifties, but fascinated to start learning it.

The FCPX Techniques forum is more valuable at the moment.

In my first post here after a many year break, I said I liked a modular design which is good for prosumers and indies (there I said it) but where those who need other specialised features can pay extra, is a sensible business model. And increases the democratisation of production, which I also know some people HATE.

I think a lot of people here are going to be feeling pretty foolish in five years.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 4:13:15 pm

Woah...

Ok, I kinda saw this coming, but you did say you were dodging town for the land of techniques, but I guess you needed your own V style parting shot...

Firstly, it was a minor jab, and considering Mr Kenny's unrelenting resolve, he'll brush it off. But the jab was pretty much both ways. Tiny tiny maybe on his side...but that line honestly did make me chortle, maybe a guffaw.

On to the pop-psych.

I don't think I really need to hold your hand through anything, you're a big boy. And I'll give you the respect the other side seems to have decided isn't required when going toe to toe on this abomination. But context is needed. There have been blogs, an unrelenting hum, an endless bucket of needless characterizations and EASY needless punches below the belt...comes off as projection to be honest.

Some of us have drawn our lines here. I dug my heals in the sand and took exception once there was a blog post decidedly ripping into the reasons we don't like it, that entirely made it personal...it was nothing short of sand being kicked in the face of those who have serious problems with this. Doesn't mean I can't keep good cheer, and have. But with the occasional borderline troll-ish post, which most are said with tongue firmly planted in cheek and not vicious in any manner, in parallel I have asked we pick up the class in this joint and quit this talking down to mentality to those that have serious issues here.

It's gotten so bad it's like having a conversation with someone whose back is turned to you listening to their ipod...or it's conversation hegemony....instead of addressing it, they dismiss it, re-invent it and say it another way trying to take over your own personal feelings and tell you what you really think...good god. It does make one scratch their head....calling this out occasionally is nothing to get snitty over and to tell me to leave...am I name calling? Am I trolling the techniques forum..? I'm in what is now a discussion forum. I think you get that. Which is why this seems to have halted your patience here where you have continually mapped out your quest to leave. So, if this is your parting shot, I wish it was a better one, and sorry you are taking my posts with such disdain. But my convo with David was a lot longer than 2 posts and crossed his blog, and Chris here I'm sure can take it like the man he is (and proven in spades)...I do feel somewhat bad since I have a technical question I'm sure he'd love to answer, but probably won't now...crap

Cheers


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:07:57 am

Chris:

Very clear explanation; the case is probably that different people, using different parts of our brains, see "negative space" where others see shape and objects, etc. So the interface is obvious to some, a total counter-intuitive mystery to others.

The main thing is to spread the idea of the "trackless" editor; that is a technique I will use when I teach FCPX to my high school class next Fall. In fact, if we START with FCPX, I can then use our copies of FCP7 as a kind of "schematic, under-the-hood" metaphor showing them what it would look like if they "disassembled" an NLE and saw all the working parts laid out. "Okay kids? Now let's put the hood back down and concentrate on driving."

BTW, your "text editor" analogy is particularly apt, because in fact if you DO want to prohibit flowing text and have characters occupy a place on the page, you want a different app -- a page-layout app.

So to carry the analogy forward, high-end pros are like page-layout and illustrator graphic artists, used to manipulating all the pieces. FCPX or more like "Pages" app in which you can toggle to layout, but start in a basic word processor where you think about your content first.

On the other hand, for many users, 90% of the tools go unused. Think about all the sophisticated tools that traditional NLE editing apps offer, whereby you can put a clip up in "the Viewer" and then insert, overwrite, replace or fit-to-fill into its proper place in the timeline... and then use a host of other tools that control sync and collisions as they ripple, trim, slip, slide etc...

And yet, in spite of all that, much NLE editing in practice turns out to be exactly the thing you describe, sliding shots around like tiles on a scrabble board, trying to come up with an order that works, a rhythm that makes sense.

For that kind of editing, many of us have gotten used to stacking clips up in vertical space, two or three choices in front of us at all times... and then laboriously doing what you describe, trying to slide and place, snap-to or overwrite, swap and so on.

So maybe for many of us, this new FCPX timeline will prove to be a cleaner approach, and it may discipline us to organize and focus on building the cut, instead of shuffling and fussing with "clean up" organizational moves -- by using Auditioning, Secondary Storyline and Connected Clips to hide all that clutter except when we want to see it.

I sort of have a procedure that I do in FCP7 that approximates this, where I leave multiple video tracks stacked until I decide which shots I'm using, whether I will layer, dissolve or title, what part of the clip I want to use (Slide control) and so on. Finally, when I am close, I feel that the clutter is keeping me from seeing a clean visual representation of my cut and its rhythm, so I end up dragging all the vertical clips down onto the V1 track, essentially collapsing them into a single-track edit. So maybe using FCPX will train me to see that clean version of my cut most of the time, and I will ONLY see the expanded choices when I CHOOSE to show them.

In some ways, FCP7 versus the new FCPX is like comparing a messy desktop where everything is spread out everywhere, to a filing system (or database as FCPX actually IS) where you FIND things by keyword, or expand to view, instead of seeing everything laying in front of you at all times.

Doug D


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:24:20 am

I don't have time to first create a mess on the timeline and then spend hours cleaning it up. There is usually a director or producer in the room or over or scheduled screening and the deadline. If he sees a kind of messy timeline you describe I'll be fired. He can have all the messy timeline he wants for a tenth of what I charge.

Editing isn't about the order in which shots come in. Film is not a comic book. Editing is about the exact time the shots come in, exact duration they stay on screen and exact time they go out. Magnetic timeline was designed by those who think a film is a comic book. It doesn't respect timing. There are ways around it but constantly fighting the tool you use is not a way to work efficiently.

Magnetic timeline won't discipline anyone. It is one of the things that looks cool at a first glance but feels the more restrictive and frustrating the more you work on it. Magnetic timeline behavior is nothing new and can be found in every other NLE, shipping or discontinued. But even in the most unorthodox from the design viewpoint NLE's this mode can be easily switched off.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:02:18 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "I don't have time to first create a mess on the timeline and then spend hours cleaning it up."

I could write this precise sentence in support of the magnetic timeline.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Magnetic timeline was designed by those who think a film is a comic book. It doesn't respect timing."

Coud you explain what you mean by this? How does it not respect timing?

[Michael Aranyshev] "It is one of the things that looks cool at a first glance but feels the more restrictive and frustrating the more you work on it."

This has been the precise opposite of my experience.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:07:45 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I could write this precise sentence in support of the magnetic timeline."

Sorry, it wasn't about magnetic timeline. It was in response to Douglas' description of his approach to editing.

[Chris Kenny] "Coud you explain what you mean by this? How does it not respect timing?"

It ripples. Clips ripple. Transitions ripple too. The design priority was to prevent a user from accidentally creating flash frames and short gaps.

[Chris Kenny] "This has been the precise opposite of my experience."

My apologies again we are just trading words here. I didn't have an opportunity to see what you do in the non-magnetic timeline to make a comparison. Chances might be you simply "don't get" the non-magnetic timeline.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:18:06 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It ripples. Clips ripple. Transitions ripple too. The design priority was to prevent a user from accidentally creating flash frames and short gaps."

This doesn't really answer my question. OK, things ripple. How does this mean it's not respecting timing? It's not changing the lengths of your clips. And most actions can be performed without rippling.

[Michael Aranyshev] "My apologies again we are just trading words here. I didn't have an opportunity to see what you do in the non-magnetic timeline to make a comparison. Chances might be you simply "don't get" the non-magnetic timeline."

It's far more plausible that something that came out last week isn't being understood properly than that something that has been around for almost 20 years isn't being understood properly.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:29:13 pm

[Chris Kenny] "It's not changing the lengths of your clips."

Wrong. If there is a transition by default it changes the lengths of the clip. And it is always changing the length of the program.

[Chris Kenny] "And most actions can be performed without rippling."

Having to use workarounds is distracting.

[Chris Kenny] "It's far more plausible that something that came out last week isn't being understood properly than that something that has been around for almost 20 years isn't being understood properly."

It didn't came out last week. It is one of the timeline modes in every second NLE, shipping or discontinued.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:39:59 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Wrong. If there is a transition by default it changes the lengths of the clip. And it is always changing the length of the program."

You can disable that transition behavior. And arguably it's the behavior you're advocating that changes the length of the clip, because it results in image data from the clip being visible starting before the in point and continuing after your out point. In contrast, the default FCP X behavior, to which you are objecting, entirely respects your in points and out points.

This is sort of what I'm talking about. You're identifying this new default behavior as taking away your control, but an equally compelling case could be made for the reverse. You're just used to one behavior and not the other.

As far as ripple deleting, etc. impacting the length of your overall program, FCP 7 has lots of edit actions that do that, starting with 'Insert'. It's not as if FCP X doesn't have a non-rippeled delete mode. It's just shift-delete rather than delete, the reverse of FCP 7.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Having to use workarounds is distracting."

They're not 'workarounds'. FCP 7 has a specific set of default behaviors that you're used to. FCP X has a different default set of behaviors. There is nothing inherently wrong with FCP X's set of default behaviors. In fact, in most cases I can make a compelling argument that, objectively, FCP X's behavior more sense.

[Michael Aranyshev] "It didn't came out last week. It is one of the timeline modes in every second NLE, shipping or discontinued."

Please point to some examples.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:02:19 pm

[Chris Kenny] "It's not as if FCP X doesn't have a non-rippeled delete mode"

It doesn't have non-ripple Cut and non-ripple Paste.

[Chris Kenny] "Please point to some examples."

Discreet edit, Fast/Pinnacle/Avid Liquid, Sony Vegas, Avid Media Composer


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 7:52:33 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It doesn't have non-ripple Cut and non-ripple Paste."

Overwrite which is "D"
It's there but it's only menu/key command, not a button.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:04:58 pm

"Cut" you know. Command-X. In the Edit menu. Paste. Command-V. They ripple.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 8:29:21 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It doesn't have non-ripple Cut and non-ripple Paste."

You're right. It doesn't provide every editing feature of FCP 7's timeline. But it does provide quite a few features that FCP 7's timeline doesn't. You can't just arbitrarily declare that FCP 7's features are just the right ones, so FCP X must be less professional, or whatever.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Discreet edit, Fast/Pinnacle/Avid Liquid, Sony Vegas, Avid Media Composer"

I wasn't actually asking for a list on NLEs, but for some kind of documentation of the fact that they implemented a substantial fraction of the behavior of the magnetic timeline. Because I seriously doubt that. I think what you really mean is that they had modes where they'd ripple by default, but with the magnetic timeline that's just one piece of the puzzle.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:00:34 pm

[Chris Kenny] "You can't just arbitrarily declare that FCP 7's features are just the right ones, so FCP X must be less professional, or whatever"

Why not? You're arbitrary declaring magnetic timeline the future of editing and slapping "don't get it" label on people who disagree because you can. I can express my opinion too.


[Chris Kenny] " think what you really mean is that they had modes where they'd ripple by default, but with the magnetic timeline that's just one piece of the puzzle."

No it is not. The whole "magnetic" thing is just same old insert mode. All other bizarre stuff comes under the "trackless" moniker.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:07:19 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Why not? You're arbitrary declaring magnetic timeline the future of editing and slapping "don't get it" label on people who disagree because you can. I can express my opinion too."

Actually, I'm saying there's nothing inherently 'non-professional' about the magnetic timeline, and slapping a "don't get it" label on people who say things that demonstrate they don't get it.

[Michael Aranyshev] "No it is not. The whole "magnetic" thing is just same old insert mode. All other bizarre stuff comes under the "trackless" moniker."

Things like this.

The magnetic features of the timeline are not meaningfully separable from the trackless features. All of the magnetic behaviors related to clip collisions -- which enable the magnetic behaviors generally -- are enabled by the trackless approach. Without this approach, the timeline doesn't have enough flexibility for the app to safely move clips around in the way the magnetic timeline requires.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:30:18 pm

Sure. One way is to create a problem and when to come up with some clever and not so clever solutions. Another way is to not create a problem in the first place.

[Chris Kenny] "Actually, I'm saying there's nothing inherently 'non-professional' about the magnetic timeline, and slapping a "don't get it" label on people who say things that demonstrate they don't get it."

Fine. And I'm saying this feature is inherently "non-professional" because it is designed to solve the problem no one regularly practicing editing ever has. Casual users of editing software on the other hand make cuts with accidental flash frames and gaps all the time.

Both are opinions. The difference is the benefits of magnetic timeline for someone regularly practicing editing are yet to be seen. The benefits for a casual users are immediate. Occam's razor.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:44:36 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Fine. And I'm saying this feature is inherently "non-professional" because it is designed to solve the problem no one regularly practicing editing ever has. Casual users of editing software on the other hand make cuts with accidental flash frames and gaps all the time."

As an online editor/colorist, who sees a lot of other editors' work before it has been extensively QA'd, I am quite amused at your assessment of the abilities of the average professional editor. These kinds of glitches -- particularly single frames of black -- are not all that rare.

But in any event, if you think Apple switched to an entirely different paradigm for sequence organization to prevent flash frames, you're nuts. The magnetic timeline is about making the timeline less 'brittle' so editors can worry more about things like shot order and timing, and less about making sure clips play nice and don't clobber each other.

Imagine if word processors worked in overwrite mode by default, and you had to be careful whenever you were rearranging or adding text to make sure you weren't overwriting other text. People who worked with such word processors a lot would probably get pretty adept at doing that, but why should they have to? And would the existence of such systems really be rational cause to call systems that didn't work this way 'non-professional'?

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:10:19 am

[Chris Kenny] "Imagine if word processors worked in overwrite mode by default"

I don't have to imagine. They did. It was horrible. When they were gone everyone celebrated.It is irrelevant though because time relates to written text in totally different form than to moving images.

As for the falling professional standards it is clients trading quality for costs. FCPX won't swing it in any direction.


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:12:14 am

[Michael Aranyshev] "It is irrelevant though because time relates to written text in totally different form than to moving images."

You keep making vague statements like this without grounding them in any specific critique of the magnetic timeline. I'm still at a loss with respect to how ripping by default in more instances is supposed to be a problem here.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:17:37 am

It ripples


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 11:48:18 am

[Michael Aranyshev] "It ripples"

OK, that wasn't fair. Sorry.

You're an online editor. You have your videoreference, your EDL and a bunch of folders with DPX sequences. You load everything and start connecting. Then there is a dissolve in the EDL but not enough handles in the DPX sequences. The thing ripples.


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:31:18 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It doesn't have non-ripple Cut"

Shift Delete will delete and clip and not ripple.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 11:06:26 pm

It will delete. It will not place a clip into the clipboard.


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:25:49 am

Copy, Command C
Paste as Connected, Option V.
Then Overwrite to Primary Storyline if you then want it to replace that part of the shot in the Timeline, Command Option Down Arrow

Yup a two step process which should probably be a one step process. There should be a Paste Overwrite single key combo.

There's Replace, Replace from Start and Replace from End but those don't work from Copy.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:45:14 am

You left out Deleā€¦ er, Replace with Gap so make it three-step. As for New Replace I would trade all three for a good old F11.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/939


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 1:54:59 am

I thought you were asking about Cut and Paste.
Replace with Gap isn't pasting a clip.

You can Paste a clip as Connected but not Paste Overwrite, but you can Overwrite from a Connected clip so it's two steps. Overwrite from "clipboard" (a copied clip).



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 2:43:41 am

[Craig Seeman] "I thought you were asking about Cut and Paste."

I was. Cut removes the clip from the timeline leaving the gap and stores the clip in clipboard. Paste places the clip stored in clipboard on the timeline at playhead position overwriting whatever happens to be there.


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 3:15:46 am

Yes, it seems one must Copy then Replace with Gap as Cut would Ripple.



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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:45:10 pm

Sounds like TV news to me. I have a friend who has cut a lot of CBS news stories under those same circumstances.

But there ARE long-form editors working in documentaries and fiction who DO work in a manner closer to a writer shuffling his drafts, cutting and pasting and "finding" the story. The result is no more "comic book" than the universal process of "shot, when to come in, when to go out" string of clips that comprise every bit of film since its invention.

I used to cut 16mm at night when I started out, for extra money. There is the ultimate expression of your workflow: it's all pre-determined, and you lose a frame on each end of a shot when you cement the neg, so no mistakes or "thinking" allowed.

But that doesn't mean there wasn't an enormous amount of time spent "thinking" during the actual edit. All you're saying is you do your edit "in your head" as you screen the footage, then put it together in one pass, working on timing alone, as the Producer leans over your shoulder wondering, "Why can't you just push the 'finished' button and be done with it?"

But there are plenty of people who get to take their time and work as I describe. What do you think Walter Murch's elaborate extracting and printing of frames from every shot and then arranging them on a wall, before he puts two shots together in the NLE is all about? Is the result a comic book movie? Contrarily, you can cut a music video precisely as you describe, double clicking shots into the Viewer, in, out, slam into the timeline on the beat, never look back.

Either way, I can imagine the FCPX interface being designed for results, not process -- and it is the disappearance and/or lack of control of that process that seems to bother everyone.

The process you describe, the one that, if you depart from it, will get you "fired', sounds like it is perfect for FCPX.

Doug D


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 2:37:33 pm

Sorry Michael A, my post left out the word "neg." I used to cut 16mm negative; trying to make the point that yes, a cut show is a string of the right shots which come in and go out at the right time. And that cutting the neg is the most schematic final cut of that process, all thinking having already been done.

I was simply trying to say that you can do your "thinking" in the timeline, before committing to your trimmed, rhythmic final cut. And that FCPX interface and events organization seems to turn the process on its head, saying "don't work with all your tools out on the table; hide 'em until you need 'em, one by one." For me that could be a good "bad-habit breaker."

I understand that for many, like my CBS news friend, that just sounds like extra steps to get back to a solid and transparent way of working, so why bother.

Doug D


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 5:45:06 pm

It is not news I cut. It is theatrically released feature films. The amount of thinking and editing in your head is enormous indeed. It starts with reading the script in pre-production if I'm lucky enough to get hired that early. It continues during production with shots coming in every day. But the next day they've wrapped the director comes and I have to show them the story that makes sense. Yes this part is mostly about the order the shots come. I can be sloppy in timing and matching shots at these point if the schedule is tight and the shooting ratio is huge but I cannot be sloppy in presentation. The story has to make sense. That's what they expect to see and that's what they pay for.

Then the director is on it for as long as he likes or as long as the producer foots the bill. Still it isn not a Babylon tower of stacked shots on the timeline and an endless list of sequences containing the same cut just with a few frames shaved off here or there in the browser. I must show him the alternate take the instant he wants and edit it into the scene the second he likes it. And I must undo and redo all these changes right away. Which I do without resorting to keeping copy of every minutely different variant. When recutting a scene don't keep the older version. When you need to revert to it if it was good you'll reassemble it on autopilot. If it wasn't good chances reassembling it manually you'll make it better. The versions you keep are the ones that screening were scheduled for and notes taken. There aren't that many.

Then it is time to polish there is no time to make your project ramble. To ear the heart-beat and the breath of your film you must focus on the film itself, not on the difference between "most fine finest fine cut", "fifth director's cut", "rainy afternoon cut" and "the one we did just for laughs cut". You will get distracted, lost and frustrated.

Well, to make it short whatever you do on the timeline do it as fast as you can. Keep your eyes on the picture, not on the interface. That will leave you more time to think and it will let you cut better.


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Reed Black
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:47:37 pm

I'm sorry but I had to jump in here. I seriously don't understand how the magnetic timeline is confusing at all. Once I figured out how to import files I started cutting immediately without issue. The magnetic timeline is very, very, very simple. It moves clips out of the way as your sliding clips left and right. That's it. (Unless I'm missing something) And I love that it does that. It can easily be turned off by pressing the "P" button. I mean really, of all the issues FCPX has - this is the one the keeps popping up as being touted a "joke". Which leaves me thinking how any person who edits on a regular basis would find issue with this feature. I just don't get it. One of the naturally simplest new functions created - TO ME - and I love it.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 6:16:36 pm

[Reed Black] " seriously don't understand how the magnetic timeline is confusing at all. "

It not confusing in the slightest. It just does the exact opposite of what the timeline in an NLE should do.

[Reed Black] "The magnetic timeline is very, very, very simple."

Yes, it is.

[Reed Black] "It can easily be turned off by pressing the "P" button"

Wrong. Try to press "P" and then Command-X/Command-V


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Chris Kenny
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 12:42:18 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "BTW, your "text editor" analogy is particularly apt, because in fact if you DO want to prohibit flowing text and have characters occupy a place on the page, you want a different app -- a page-layout app.

So to carry the analogy forward, high-end pros are like page-layout and illustrator graphic artists, used to manipulating all the pieces. FCPX or more like "Pages" app in which you can toggle to layout, but start in a basic word processor where you think about your content first."


Well, where that breaks down is that with a page layout app, the arrangement of the page is the final product that your audience will see, whereas the graphical representation of the timeline in an NLE is just incidental. So having detailed control over its visual presentation isn't like having that sort of control in a page layout context, it's like having it when writing text that's purely functional, like, say, source code.

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "In some ways, FCP7 versus the new FCPX is like comparing a messy desktop where everything is spread out everywhere, to a filing system (or database as FCPX actually IS) where you FIND things by keyword, or expand to view, instead of seeing everything laying in front of you at all times."

That's a good analogy. More generally, there are a lot of parallels here to the spatial Finder vs. browser Finder holy wars that broke out a decade ago when Apple shipped OS X and abandoned the former for the later.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:32:17 pm

Chris, Re: the Finder.

Yes, and as I said about FCP7 vs FCPX after I watched the Supermeet way back when -- the FCP7 Browser is really just a crappy version of the old Mac Finder. And the new interface is analogous to leaving behind System 7, System 9 et al and jumping into Tiger, Panther, Leopard, Snow.

Doug D


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Stephen Bakopanos
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:03:44 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Do these more reasonable defaults make the app easier to use for consumers? Sure. But that's because they make more sense, not because they remove control. I'm unclear precisely what it is about an interface that makes more sense that supposedly makes it unsuitable for professional users."

Chris, you've been a voice of reason in amongst a sea of hysteria - thanks for keeping things a little bit grounded here. FCPX certainly does have some BIG limitations in it's current incarnation which makes it unsuitable for broadcast editing - that much is certain - but it's by no means a consumer app.

I wonder what the reaction would be if people had been using the FCP X workflow and magnetic timeline for the last 10 years and then Apple brought out the FCP7 workflow and timeline to replace it? I reckon we'd be seeing a similar negative response. People don't like change.


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Craig Seeman
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jun 30, 2011 at 2:11:26 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I think particularly this last behavior is a serious area of misunderstanding and cause of resentment. A lot of people seem to be looking at the FCP X timeline as having tracks they can't control. But that's not really the case. Rather, it has clip connections which are precisely controllable by the user. Vertical space is just used to help display the clip connections the user has specified as clearly as possible. "

Good analogy Chris. It reminds me of lead based typesetters complaining about the inflexibility of computer based desktop publishing.

At this point I'm completely frustrated by people who don't get. It's one thing to note the major missing features but people are complaining about things that are major workflow advantages.

It's like complaining that they can't feed hay to the new fangled automobile or why they can drive the supersonic jet down the traffic congested side street. It flies over it!

They keep wishing the car was a horse. They don't want to learn how to drive a car . . . or a jet.

Sorry to rant. It's something I'm not prone to doing but I really have to question whether people are spending time to understand FCPX in various workflows rather than trying to get it to work like an old style NLE.



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Geoff Dills
Re: "Magnetic timeline" is a joke, want an option to turn it off
on Jul 1, 2011 at 12:56:32 am

[Craig Seeman] " I really have to question whether people are spending time to understand FCPX in various workflows rather than trying to get it to work like an old style NLE."

They have to WANT to understand. What I see is a lot of extremely disappointed (rightfully so IMHO) people who were counting on Apple to continue providing great tools. So rather than open their minds to the possibilities of this software, they vent their anger, again rightfully so. So to try and argue how something works now is a moot issue for these folks as they WON'T be using this tool and are being forced to switch to another tool they're unfamiliar with as well. I would just point out the new way you do stuff and leave it at that. And I for one love to see the venting. From day one I've told my colleagues they just should have called it something else.

Best,
Geoff


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