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Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.

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Bill Davis
Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 12:58:26 am

Michael Cioni of Lightiron in Hollywood did the post work for both Gone Girl (Premier) and Focus (FCP X). In his appearance a month ago at the LACPUG, he's mostly focused on promoting his new tablet based editorial review system, but around that, he has quite a bit to say about field generated metadata for major motion pictures, and about editorial workflow issues.

Worth watching.







Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 4:32:50 pm

This guy is a true guru of metadata and has realized its potential and importance for much longer than any of us. His point (and many many others he makes) e.g. about people oddly still insisting on the hierarchal folder style flip-down organization/browsing (around 7:00) as opposed to a much superior metadata based structure is SO spot on. And showing it with Live Play just drives that point home that much more. The implementation and use of metadata is just plain brilliant. And the way it should have been loooong long ago. And the way only FCP X has actually managed to address light years ahead of anyone else. Fortunately it seems to be sinking in ever so slowly. :)

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 5:45:32 pm

Very cool.

Too bad the workflow is targeted at the super small niche of film and TV show production (which I've been told has no relevance to the rest of the video making community). ;)

People talking about the future of things always make me wonder how many things will change by the the time 'the future' becomes 'the present' and how that impacts the predicted future vs the actual future. In this particular example, Michael said the way X handles metadata is the future but in the time it takes the future to become the present why the apparent assumption that PPro and Avid also won't be moving towards the future?

Poor analogy time, it kinda reminds me when the RED One camera came out and how forward thinking they seemed compared to Sony, Panasonic, Arri, etc.,. and many people thought that Red had put a lot of distance between itself and the 'old guard'. Over the next 5 or 6 years though the old guard had caught up, or even surpassed, what RED had started, so by the time 4k production started becoming more common there were many viable camera options to choose from.

Even looking at the present though, aside from FCP's always-updating Smart Folders I don't see why exporting an XML from Live Play can't work similarly with PPro. Avid also supports metadata out the wazoo but its using of AAF instead of XML makes it the odd man out in terms of data language/format (though I think the required functionally exists in Avid as well). A year or so ago at a meeting Philip Hodgetts was asked about making LumerJack compatible with Avid and there didn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work, they just didn't have the resources to commit to it.

I think the biggest gem here is Live Play's ability to glean metadata from existing sources and automatically compile it into a single place. In my experience the weakest part of metadata has been the human component. Entering metadata is tedious and repetitive which means people generally hate doing it (and are much slower at it than a computer would be anyway).

All in all, exciting times to be a part of the video production/post production world. New opportuneness, and new challenges, around every corner. Workflows that are 100 years old and workflows that are a week old sit side by side and can both be utilized depending on the situation.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 5:52:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Too bad the workflow is targeted at the super small niche of film and TV show production (which I've been told has no relevance to the rest of the video making community). ;)"

You beat me to it. ;-) It is a good video, though.

Of course, Michael glosses over his comments related to all the metadata provided in the script, without showing any way to get that from paper into LivePlay. I do hear though that Avid (ScriptSync) and Adobe (Story) have figured out a way to make use of this data. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 6:19:23 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Nov 30, 2014 at 6:45:07 pm

[Oliver Peters] "without showing any way to get that from paper into LivePlay."

Hmmm... maybe because he's talked about that extensively elsewhere (e.g. on his website?) and there was little need (and/or time) to rehash to get the relevant point across?

Just guessing. :)

But then simply using a BMCC would already give you the vast majority of what it needs. Or something like LumberJack? There are certainly a plethora of ways. It's no magic. But then... what are assistant editors for? :)

And I don't see how this is in any way just for "super small niche […] film and TV", though it certainly makes the most sense in that context, sure.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 6:52:20 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Hmmm... maybe because he's talked about that extensively elsewhere (e.g. on his website?) and there was little need (and/or time) to rehash to get the relevant point across?"

Send a link. Are you sure you don't mean the work that Sam Mestman has been doing to integrate Script-E data? That would require the script supervisor to enter the info.

[Robin S. Kurz] "And I don't see how this is in any way just for "super small niche […] film and TV", though it certainly makes the most sense in that context, sure."

At the very least, it requires double-system sound with a separate audio mixer who is entering in the scene/take data.

[Robin S. Kurz] "There are certainly a plethora of ways. It's no magic. But then... what are assistant editors for? :)"

I'm not saying it can't be done. Here's one way:
http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/nle-tips-week-4/

My point is that the premise is to be labor-saving otherwise it won't get done. So it would seem that this is a missing link.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 7:13:52 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "And I don't see how this is in any way just for "super small niche […] film and TV", though it certainly makes the most sense in that context, sure."

It's not, which is the joke.

Recently in this forum whenever someone talks about film/TV workflows (at least ones that don't include X) there are some that keep dismissing those discussions as being irrelevant because film/TV is such a niche overall and/or the person making the comment doesn't work work in film/TV.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 7:39:42 pm

Speaking in generalities, I think a big sticking point with metadata (and products like Live Play and LumberJack are trying to address these) is that it needs to be easy enough that people will do it but thorough enough that it's useful.

I'ld like to see a system more integrated where the logging tool, the DAM and the NLE are constantly talking to each other so no matter where the data gets entered it gets updated across that programs w/o having to share XMLs. A system like that should still be able to import/export XMLs though so that your data isn't stuck in a closed/proprietary system.


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Bill Davis
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 7:51:21 pm

Well, Andrew, it can easily be said that the "relevance" of Hollywood practices to the rest of the production world is very much like the relevance of, say Cartier to the rest of the jewelry world.

Everyone in the industry is dumb if they don't keep an eye on what Cartier is doing. But nobody mistakes what comes out of their shop as "representative" of what's going to be sold in the worlds jewelry stores next month.

Nothing different here.

I've been babbling here for 3 years plus about the potential transformative nature of this stuff BECAUSE I got introduced to new thinking when Apple transformed X.

Yes, others are also playing. And yes, Apple "might" lose their leadership position to another player at some future point. but how likely? Apple got yet another leg up by taking the bold, big chance. And this story better reveals the long range plan. It was NEVER the "consumerization" of pro video editing. It was always about improving it. Is Adobe going to gut Premier Pro in order to similarly spread metadata handling throughout the core of the program? That's exactly what Apple did.

Just stuff to think about.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Nov 30, 2014 at 8:53:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "Nothing different here."

The timing of it all is what made me giggle. Lots of 'not relevant' talk recently then all of a sudden it seems relevant again because of one sentence that gives FCP X a thumbs up. ;)

I'm up to reading about anyone's workflow because you never know when you'll pick up something useful. For example, I don't use X and I don't do short form things like trailers/spots but I read some things about the FCPX/Honda commercial workflow that I might be able to apply to longer form projects in PPro.

[Bill Davis] "Is Adobe going to gut Premier Pro in order to similarly spread metadata handling throughout the core of the program? That's exactly what Apple did. "

Does Adobe (or Avid) really have to do that though? Both programs already contain an extensive amount of metadata and Adobe just markedly improved the 'search-ability' of it's metadata with the 8.1 updated. I'm currently working on a project in Avid 8.2 and after dropping markers with key words to tag specific parts of clips I'm almost exclusively using the Find tool to find the footage I want. I rarely have to go into folders and bins to look for footage. One thing that would be nice in Avid though is if you could have all the search results copy into a bin as opposed to only existing in the Find Tool window. Something like FCP X's Smart Folders would be cool, but I don't know if that's possible in Avid right now.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 12:19:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Lots of 'not relevant' talk recently then all of a sudden it seems relevant again because of one sentence that gives FCP X a thumbs up."

Are you misinterpreting/misconstruing on purpose as part of "the joke"? Who said what about film/TV relevance, other than you? What sentence "gives a thumbs up"?

But if you're referring to my previous point here, I was referring to METADATA (i.e. his app) hardly being only relevant for "super small niche […] film and TV", which it certainly isn't. I merely conceded it may play a larger part here or there in those markets. But metadata itself certainly plays the biggest part when it comes to ONLINE, not film/TV (yet). Most film and TV facilities don't even have the most basic framework for working with actual metadata outside of maybe timecode in place, seeing how so many of them are by far the most lethargic at adapting anything new that comes up. I (nor anyone else that I can see here) never made any reference or judgement of said film and TV market ITSELF in this context, so I unfortunately have no idea what supposed claim you're trying to get at, sorry.

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't use X"

Which I guess explains why you don't appear to know how completely different (i.e. far more extensive) X's metadata support is compared to others.

[Andrew Kimery] "Smart Folders would be cool, but I don't know if that's possible in Avid right now"

Nothing even close, no. And they're "Smart Collections" btw.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 2:13:37 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Which I guess explains why you don't appear to know how completely different (i.e. far more extensive) X's metadata support is compared to others."

I do use X and I'm not sure I agree with that. X has a unique way of handling metadata and some would argue a superior way. But that's only in how the database results are manipulated and displayed.

X certainly has deep support for metadata from cameras, but it doesn't track or support any greater amount of metadata than many other NLEs, notably Media Composer. Both NLEs (and others, too) run a very large database "under the hood" and that's probably true of Premiere Pro and Lightworks, too, among others.

Most of this is dependent on how deep the camera manufacturer cares to expose their info to the NLE (X or otherwise) via an SDK. If Avid wanted to expand the capabilities of the Find function, they could certainly do so. Just more engineering time, but the foundation is there.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 6:00:44 pm

First, thanks for posting this Bill, that was an awesome demo from Michael Cioni.

[Oliver Peters] " But that's only in how the database results are manipulated and displayed.
"


But isn't that pretty much the entirety of the argument?

If it's not easy to use, if it's displayed poorly, if you can't manipulate it very easily, why even bother with it? It was why making selects reels in FCP7 worked so well, because that is how the software worked well. It wasn't because it was a superior or inferior way to do things.

X has a search function, but it's strength lies in sort, just like the Live Play demo. It's not about adding more capability to the "find" command, it's about how to display the data in a sorted manner that makes sense, and multiple pieces can fit in to multiple data sets and can be displayed or not displayed easily. The FCPX timeline does this pretty well, too, although it seems to be the most controversial of topics.

[Andrew Kimery] "I'm not misrepresenting anything. Both Oliver (who said I beat him to the punch with the joke) and Bill know what I'm talking about. And the sentence about FCP X I'm talking about is just after the 15min mark in the video (it's the only reason the video got posted here to begin with)."


I got the joke, and I thought it was hilarious, actually. I Zing!OLed (ZOL). Live Play is certainly a professional app with professional pricing (subscription FTW!). But to Bill's point, I don't think that metadata needs to be reserved for feature films. Live streaming dailies maybe, but not metadata on the whole. FCPX does a good job of simple things like sorting and displaying liked or disliked clips very easily.


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Richard Herd
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 8:18:02 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I got the joke, and I thought it was hilarious, actually. I Zing!OLed (ZOL)"

It was a good zinger! I smiled wryly.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 6:59:57 pm

[Oliver Peters] "it doesn't track or support any greater amount of metadata than many other NLEs, notably Media Composer"

Really? Well, on an aside, I'm not speaking exclusively of what comes in, but just as much about what is possible or can be added/edited/created/used AFTER import and in general, nor was there mention of *every* NLE, but rather specific ones. But show me where you find any or all of the infos pertaining to color profile, camera ID, manufacturer infos, date of import of a clip, lyricist for an audio track, tempo, key and/or time signature, which encoding app was used, camera angle and/or name, copyright infos, ISO speeds etc. etc. etc. in PPro (which has a lot of that, yes) let alone in Avid. I don't know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn't know where to look... but I also don't believe it even has it to begin with.

And yes, the HOW is 200% more important than the IF imho. And that's another aspect that I think X has cornered compared to anyone else at the moment.

But then better/comparable metadata support for PPro has only now been added with the most recent update with the addition of XMP. PPro is certainly moving up as far as that's concerned (Avid?). Metadata information and workflows that X has had access to for nearly four years running nonetheless.

[Oliver Peters] "If Avid wanted to expand the capabilities of the Find function, they could certainly do so. Just more engineering time, but the foundation is there."

How is that relevant to Avid's metadata capabilities today i.e. the discussion? But even if we were talking about "coulda/shoulda/woulda" and the respective foundations they stand upon, I would guess that Apple and X are also in a much better position than Avid going forward, too, and we could assume and hypothesize all day long in all different directions as far as that's concerned.

[TImothy Auld] "smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata.

My previous point exactly, yes, thank you. No idea why it needed any explaining.

- RK


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Walter Soyka
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 7:11:36 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "And yes, the HOW is 200% more important than the IF imho. And that's another aspect that I think X has cornered compared to anyone else at the moment."

How do you actually use metadata (beyond shot-logging) in an editorial context in the real world?

(Question, not an argument.)


[Robin S. Kurz] "But then better/comparable metadata support for PPro has only now been added with the most recent update with the addition of XMP. PPro is certainly moving up as far as that's concerned (Avid?). Metadata information and workflows that X has had access to for nearly four years running nonetheless."

Search bins and advanced timeline search are new in October, but XMP support has been in Premiere Pro since CS4, back in 2008. There's been a lot you could do with metadata from the project panel, for a long time.

FCP X has the most obvious metadata implementation and some really rich tools for exploiting metadata in editorial, but editorial search/sort is not the only value of metadata in a production.

(Argument, not a question.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Michael Hancock
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 7:46:04 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "But show me where you find any or all of the infos pertaining to color profile, camera ID, manufacturer infos, date of import of a clip, lyricist for an audio track, tempo, key and/or time signature, which encoding app was used, camera angle and/or name, copyright infos, ISO speeds etc. etc. etc. in PPro (which has a lot of that, yes) let alone in Avid. I don't know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn't know where to look... but I also don't believe it even has it to begin with."

Here's a sample of some of the metadata that Avid sees from the Arri camera, and this barely scratches the surface.

I have multiple bin views set up for specific editorial actions (logging/editing/conforming, etc...). So I can choose to see just take/framing/description/comments/location, etc..., then another that tells me frame rate/resolution/codec/CDL info, etc... It's pretty powerful if you spend a little time getting to know it and setting it up. Plus it's sortable and searchable.

Now in regards to music, I don't know if you can show lyricist, tempo, key, etc... Does FCPX show all of that for every music track it brings it? That's pretty slick if it does. But I assume if that info isn't embedded in the audio track it won't be available, will it? You'd have to add it manually.



----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 8:19:05 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Here's a sample of some of the metadata that Avid sees from the Arri camera, and this barely scratches the surface.

I have multiple bin views set up for specific editorial actions (logging/editing/conforming, etc...). So I can choose to see just take/framing/description/comments/location, etc..., then another that tells me frame rate/resolution/codec/CDL info, etc... It's pretty powerful if you spend a little time getting to know it and setting it up. Plus it's sortable and searchable."


X has very similar fields and tools (as they should, ARRI metadata viewing isn't proprietary). You can save different metadata views so that you can constantly change what you are seeing without having to use a bin to do it, or what's relevant to that particular need. It doesn't have to be ARRI specific, although there's a ton of info that comes along with Arri footage.

Here's a parietal list of all of the fields, plus you can add your own. What isn't shown is log processing (basic LUTs that can be turned on and off per clip, or in a group, with a click) and other format based fields, but they are there:



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 8:24:27 pm

[Michael Hancock] "That's pretty slick if it does. "

It does.

[Michael Hancock] "But I assume if that info isn't embedded in the audio track it won't be available, will it? "

The question is IF it is entered, can it even be parsed to begin with? If it's lost, what's the point of entering (embedding) it to begin with?? So that question is completely secondary if not irrelevant in this context. In the case of X: the more the merrier.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 9:03:53 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "The question is IF it is entered, can it even be parsed to begin with? If it's lost, what's the point of entering (embedding) it to begin with?? So that question is completely secondary if not irrelevant in this context. In the case of X: the more the merrier."

Last I checked (and this was a while ago), if the audio is BWF the metadata comes through. If it's MP3 it does not though I've read the workaround to keep the metadata is to convert MP3 audio to BWF and then import into Avid.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 7:58:57 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " I don't know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn't know where to look... but I also don't believe it even has it to begin with."

dude, you should probably check again. Avid has had tons of metadata support for a long long time, and recently the search/find functions has been updated to exploit it better, not to mention the recent addition of favorites bins which work great.

you can also add anything you want with custom columns like your tempo,lyricist, etc and then save that as a custom bin which is also searchable and has been available for as long as i can remember.

Just an FYI.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 12:34:55 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Really? Well, on an aside, I'm not speaking exclusively of what comes in, but just as much about what is possible or can be added/edited/created/used AFTER import and in general, nor was there mention of *every* NLE, but rather specific ones. But show me where you find any or all of the infos pertaining to color profile, camera ID, manufacturer infos, date of import of a clip, lyricist for an audio track, tempo, key and/or time signature, which encoding app was used, camera angle and/or name, copyright infos, ISO speeds etc. etc. etc. in PPro (which has a lot of that, yes) let alone in Avid. I don't know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn't know where to look... but I also don't believe it even has it to begin with."

Michael has already posted some examples of Avid's metadata options. Here's Premiere Pro's and these are categories with numerous fields in each.



The data that is stored automatically, is directly related to how well the camera manufacturer adheres to the SDK. For example, Panasonic has been very active for years in getting as much of the P2 data into FCP "legacy", Avid and Adobe software. But with Avid, there are many things that go beyond mere linking of data from media sources.

Some examples:

Film metadata (now completely ignored by Adobe and Apple)
CDL color list information
ACES color management
Script-based linking of media to script text
The tracking of media independent of the project (Avid media knows which project created it)

Another factor to note is that you can add any number of custom columns into an Avid bin. This is not possible in FCP X - custom fields are limited to the metadata panels, not the browser.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 3:55:50 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Are you misinterpreting/misconstruing on purpose as part of "the joke"? Who said what about film/TV relevance, other than you? What sentence "gives a thumbs up"?"

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Both Oliver (who said I beat him to the punch with the joke) and Bill know what I'm talking about. And the sentence about FCP X I'm talking about is just after the 15min mark in the video (it's the only reason the video got posted here to begin with).

[Robin S. Kurz] ". But metadata itself certainly plays the biggest part when it comes to ONLINE, not film/TV (yet). Most film and TV facilities don't even have the most basic framework for working with actual metadata outside of maybe timecode in place, seeing how so many of them are by far the most lethargic at adapting anything new that comes up. "

Seriously? Just in the quick Live Play demo Michael mentioned date, location, scene, shot, take, circle take, roll, camera, lens, first unit, second unit, script, actors/characters in scene, etc., and that's just some of the basic metadata collected during a scripted shoot. Once you get into post you get even more layers added on especially if you are doing a lot of VFX work or something like a historical documentary with a ton of licensed footage/audio that has to be tracked. And this is just live action stuff. Animation, judging by the panels I've seen with editors and AEs from Pixar, is a totally different beast in and of itself.

What solutions like Live Play and LumberJack are doing is trying to automate, digitize and centralize all this pre-existing metadata, which typically comes from multiple sources in multiple formats, and turn it into something more manageable and useful. Adobe's Prelude is also a pre-post organizer though it's not designed to be an on location logging took like Live Play and LumberJack are. Companies making DAM software like CatDV, Primesense and Pilotware all predate the rise of online video distribution by many, many years because the need to track all sorts of metadata predates online video distribution by many, many years.


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Bill Davis
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 8:53:10 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Just in the quick Live Play demo Michael mentioned date, location, scene, shot, take, circle take, roll, camera, lens, first unit, second unit, script, actors/characters in scene, etc., and that's just some of the basic metadata collected during a scripted shoot."

(This is just me speaking for me.)

A large part of what's excited me about X has never been about how will it integrates in any particular level of the existing editing industry. It's how it's worked for ME as an individual editor sitting in ONE seat.

By introducing me to the concept of range based keywording that sits INSIDE my editing environment - it's allowed me to develop my own personal strategies for footage manipulation in a way that's much more flexible than before i switched to X.

I've posted here before about how much it's changed even my simple Voiceover recording - allowing me to keyword judge and rank something as simple as sentence takes and then auto assemble a "best of takes" stringent - that to my great surprise, often IS the final spot that I was hired to create - has transformed the way I do that simple, basic part of my everyday work.

The point is that the way Apple designed this is first and foremost new tools and concepts for the person sitting in the editing suite to deploy as they see fit. How the editor uses those tools is up to him or her.

Metadata and keywords in X aren't just there to allow Cioni to design better systems. They're there to help all of us to design what WE need as well. Even if what you need is a smarter way to edit events like Bar Mitzvas or Corporate info videos, or HD Web ads or scientific video reports - and YES, we now know, Major Hollywood Feature movies. X can do them all really well. Because it's not ONE workflow. The database nature makes it suitable for zillions of workflows. Each customized for the editors unique needs.

Like metadata itself, it's not ONE thing. It's everything. And moving it INSIDE the NLE and making it a fundamental part of the editing process IS a very big deal. On every editing level. IMO.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 9:19:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "I've posted here before about how much it's changed even my simple Voiceover recording - allowing me to keyword judge and rank something as simple as sentence takes and then auto assemble a "best of takes" stringent - that to my great surprise, often IS the final spot that I was hired to create - has transformed the way I do that simple, basic part of my everyday work."

Absolutely true, but I do find a few things with X's metadata/database structure that I struggle with as an editor.

The first is that X works from a concept of exclusion. This was very much the core concept of Michael's demo. You are getting rid of stuff. While that's what we often do as editors, the nature of X makes it very easy to NOT go back and search through the throw-away takes for some gems. That's because if you run with "hide rejected" or "show favorites" filtered, you often have to remind yourself to go back and look at these - simply because they are out of sight. Sometimes the best pieces are in otherwise "busted" takes.

The second thing I miss is a true rating system like I might use in Lightroom. It's either Favorite or Rejected, not 1-5 or similar. I realize you could do that manually or with a Smart Collection, but it seems like it would be a valuable addition.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony west
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 10:46:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's either Favorite or Rejected, not 1-5 or similar. I realize you could do that manually or with a Smart Collection"

Kind of picking up on what Bill was saying about X fitting how different editors want to use it.

I personally almost never use rejected for two reasons. One, I may want access to that section later, and two, because I don't really see a need to after I make my range favorites, I switch to list view and I'm only looking at what I want anyway.

As I'm logging an interview I make my range favorite and type in a note of the subject. Depending on how much I like the take is how many exclamation points I put behind the note.

That way when I'm looking in list view those E points jump out.

That's my own rating system.

He did a nice job with that demo btw


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 1, 2014 at 11:06:39 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That's because if you run with "hide rejected" or "show favorites" filtered, you often have to remind yourself to go back and look at these - simply because they are out of sight. Sometimes the best pieces are in otherwise "busted" takes."

Control-c allows you to sort by all clips, and if you have the options turned on, you see what ranges are good, no good, or rejected. If this is a problem, it is certainly easily fixable by control-c. And if you want to view only busted takes, you can do that with control-delete.

As Michael showed, you can drill down very easily to the takes you need. All you'd have to do is remove "circled" and you'd see all the takes for the particular, scene, location, or however else you need it to be sorted.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 12:48:54 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "As Michael showed, you can drill down very easily to the takes you need. All you'd have to do is remove "circled" and you'd see all the takes for the particular, scene, location, or however else you need it to be sorted."

You do understand that Michael was not demoing FCP X, but rather filtering in LivePlay. Right?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 1:31:56 am

[Oliver Peters] "You do understand that Michael was not demoing FCP X, but rather filtering in LivePlay. Right?"

What? I thought that was the as yet unreleased iPad version of fcpx???

Of course I understand it was LivePlay. You mentioned both X and LivePlay being based on an exclusionary system, so I referenced both.

Why would I not want that? Even if I'm looking for busted takes, why should I look through 1435 of all of the takes, when I need to look at 10 or so from the one scene I am working on?

And if you do need it, a really simple keyboard command shows all of the clips.


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Bill Davis
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 8:58:34 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The first is that X works from a concept of exclusion. This was very much the core concept of Michael's demo. You are getting rid of stuff. While that's what we often do as editors, the nature of X makes it very easy to NOT go back and search through the throw-away takes for some gems. That's because if you run with "hide rejected" or "show favorites" filtered, you often have to remind yourself to go back and look at these - simply because they are out of sight. Sometimes the best pieces are in otherwise "busted" takes.

The second thing I miss is a true rating system like I might use in Lightroom. It's either Favorite or Rejected, not 1-5 or similar. I realize you could do that manually or with a Smart Collection, but it seems like it would be a valuable addition."


Two notes.

First, in X you don't have TWO primary filters Show Favorites and Hide Reject. You have a third. Unrated. At first, I made the mistake of thinking this was just the absence of the other two. Now I understand that it's it's own rating. So it's super easy to divide things into THREE buckets. DEFINITELY NO: Reject - which might include true crap like "we left the camera running while it was pointed at the wall" - DEFINITELY PROBABLY YES: which is FAVORITE - and the third category - Unrated - which simply means that I haven't made a decision about it yet. So Oliver, respectfully, I don't think this is about the tool - it's abut how the user conditions themself to use it. Not re-visiting Rejects is a user choice. NOT a software feature. I covered this directly in my MacBreak guest shot here:







The other note is that my friend Alex Gollner (Alex4d) in London surprised me nearly a year ago when he custom built a set of Keyword Collection tags that literally uses stars instead of ascii characters. So he has 1 star to 5 star ratings available in his keyword system for all his Events and Projects. Again, it's not that it's not there. Its that it's left up to the user to customize the workflow that fits your needs.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 9:41:01 pm

This has nothing to do with X, but you talking about Good, Bad and Unrated reminded me that every time I sort things (either physical or virtual) they have to get labeled somehow. For example, if the unlabeled pile means good and the labeled pile means bad I always wonder if I accidentally missed something because "I accidentally skipped this one" and "this one is good" look exactly the same. When I'm sorting things everything has to get a label as that acts as a built in verification that I haven't overlooked anything.


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Bill Davis
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 9:56:05 pm

I understand Andrew,

But the key for me is that Keyword collections in X are fluid and additive. So tagging, un-tagging, re-tagging and "multi-tagging" (which is a nice shorthand for the way X lets the same range/partial range exist in as many keyword collections as you like) is not a thing you do, so much as a state you live in as an X editor.

For me, the Menu Bar tags (Favorite, Reject, Untrated) are just convenient initial buckets. Yes, I *might* use them as finals. But most often I don't. I use them as separators to gather classes, before I proceed to move the targeted ranges of those clips out of those "gross buckets" and into their eventual "home" keyword bins.

That way, you get to use the blue line in X, (actually the lack thereof) to tell you when you have a clip that hasn't been dealt with. NOT just it's UNRATED status.

One system, nearly infinite flexibility!

And it's flexibility that each individual editor gets to use deploy in their own special way.

That's part of the true brilliance of the X design.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 11:48:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "So Oliver, respectfully, I don't think this is about the tool - it's abut how the user conditions themself to use it. Not re-visiting Rejects is a user choice. NOT a software feature"

I completely get that. I'm not saying the design is wrong in how it work. Rather that the design makes it easier for the editor to engage in bad habits as a by-product of the ease.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 4, 2014 at 5:11:50 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I completely get that. I'm not saying the design is wrong in how it work. Rather that the design makes it easier for the editor to engage in bad habits as a by-product of the ease.
"


You could say that about FCP7 too.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 4, 2014 at 6:29:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You could say that about FCP7 too."

You could say that about ANY NLE for that matter, yes.

Want "ratings"? Set "*" all the way up to "*****" on your CTRL-1 to 5 keys. Done. That's what it's there for. Need it ALL the time? ⌥-drag the keywords to any and every event you need them in. Done.

If you know how X was conceived to be used, no one should need to be taken by the hand for that kind of thing. And every exotic, personal niggle most certainly doesn't need to be a pre-manufactured feature.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 5:53:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "But to Bill's point, I don't think that metadata needs to be reserved for feature films. Live streaming dailies maybe, but not metadata on the whole. FCPX does a good job of simple things like sorting and displaying liked or disliked clips very easily."

[Bill Davis] "Metadata and keywords in X aren't just there to allow Cioni to design better systems. They're there to help all of us to design what WE need as well. Even if what you need is a smarter way to edit events like Bar Mitzvas or Corporate info videos, or HD Web ads or scientific video reports..."

I 100% completely agree. Of course metadata isn't reserved for feature films, and even though Michael's video was about a very specific tool (his software) doing a very specific workflow (scripted film/tv) there is general information in there that is applicable to a wide variety of situations.

Maybe I'm strange, but I'm a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things. Part of it is just a desire to learn new things and part of it is because many times I figure out ways to improve my workflow by talking with people that work in completely different facets of the industry than myself.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 6:03:14 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Dec 3, 2014 at 5:25:38 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe I'm strange, but I'm a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things. "

Not at all, and it's why I like hanging around here too. I am always looking for new (and hopefully better) ways to do things.

Put another way, if you're strange, I am also strange, *but people probably already know that about me.


*edit


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Walter Soyka
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 6:11:52 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Maybe I'm strange, but I'm a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things."

With apologies to Vince Lombardi...

Workflow isn't everything. It's the only thing.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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TImothy Auld
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 6:36:52 pm

From my perspective it is a lead pipe cinch that smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata.

Tim


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Walter Soyka
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 7:02:21 pm

[TImothy Auld] "From my perspective it is a lead pipe cinch that smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata."

Canned metadata (like in FCP X), certainly. But at the moment, it's the bigger facilities who can develop the custom tools to really effectively exploit metadata throughout an entire production pipeline. This is an area ripe for standardization. SMPTE and VES are working toward this. So is Adobe with XMP.

I feel we are almost narrowing the discussion of metadata by looking at it from the FCP X context. Check out this interview Tim did with David Stump, ASC and Gary Adcock, waaaaaaay back in 2008:

https://library.creativecow.net/stump_dave/metadata/1

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 7:28:09 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I feel we are almost narrowing the discussion of metadata by looking at it from the FCP X context. Check out this interview Tim did with David Stump, ASC and Gary Adcock, waaaaaaay back in 2008:"

The lone comment on the article from 5 years ago:

"Really interesting article. I can see the day when the encoders will be wireless as well, feeding the metadata into post equipment via the internet as the scene is being shot. Thanks."

The post is from the past, about a then possible future, and illuminating what is now the present:







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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 2, 2014 at 8:43:31 pm

[TImothy Auld] "From my perspective it is a lead pipe cinch that smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata."

I don't think anything is a lead pipe cinch in this industry with regards to workflows.

I haven't run across similar situations as you Tim although if I had to make a blanket statement, in my experience larger operations have typically been more organized/better documented where as smaller ones had more of a tendency to keep things in their heads and go off of memory.

Some people/places are just more organized/willing to create and use metadata than others regardless of project scope, budget and/or size of the operation.


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Richard Herd
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 6:55:19 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "workflow junky"

Perhaps that should be the new forum name. ;)


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Oliver Peters
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 8:06:17 pm

As an unrelated (maybe) but interesting aside, it was announced today that Panavision bought LightIron.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
on Dec 3, 2014 at 8:19:36 pm

[Oliver Peters] "As an unrelated (maybe) but interesting aside, it was announced today that Panavision bought LightIron.
"


Walter already beat you to it. ;)

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/75741


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