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8K at 60p, and the future of post?

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Walter Soyka
8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 12:19:36 pm

Quantel's Pablo Rio is doing realtime 8K at 60p.

https://library.creativecow.net/wall_kylee/Quantel-Pablo-Workflow/1

That's 7860x4320, 59.94 times a second. Quad UHD. Quad-quad HD.

Pablo Rio uses 16 3G SDI pipes to monitor, from multiple AJA Corvid 88 cards. The system needs 5 GB/s of system throughput to play/process/record in real-time. It uses three NVIDIA Tesla K80s, so the system has 72 GB of RAM on the GPUs alone. Its three RAID 60 arrays store 166 minutes of footage.

I couldn't find the Quantel or Not forum (Ha! That one's for you, Scott!), so I'll ask here.

While we're debating here whether we should buy Mac Pros or if iMacs will do -- is the processing power arms race still relevant in editorial? What does the next generation of post look like to you? Is there any value for you in being out in front or the market, even if just a little bit?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Steve Connor
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 12:27:41 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Is there any value for you in being out in front or the market, even if just a little bit?"

In my market, just being 4K is way in front!


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Tobias Heilmann-Schuricht
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 1:40:35 pm

In my opinion a good story gets you in front.

I have seen so much 4K trash in the theatre by now that I would trade those experiences for a great film on VHS any time.

8K sounds nice but Resolution follows content. At least in my book.

In Touch Media GmbH
Germany


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Michael Phillips
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 3:08:29 pm

It's a response to different market needs. Japan has been big on their 8K efforts and of course need tools to get them there in post. Whether everyone needs it? Up to the individual, but the side-effect of 8K performance at 60p is that it should do 4K and 2K at 23.976, 24, 25, and 29.97 very well. :)


Michael


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Lance Bachelder
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 8:08:21 pm

Jessh I'm still on the fence whether to shoot my next movie on 1080 or 4K.

Maybe we can all get together, rob a Vegas casino and put the money down on the Quantel?

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Bill Davis
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 4:40:45 pm

Those cards individually can run into the low to mid 4 figures.

Anyone want to ballpark the investment required to get a Rio system running with this type of performance?

As a technology demo it's really cool.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 5:41:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "Anyone want to ballpark the investment required to get a Rio system running with this type of performance?"

I'd guess somewhere between a car and a house.

Unless it's a really nice car and a not-so-nice house. Then I'd guess somewhere between a house and a car.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 6:12:19 pm

[Walter Soyka] "While we're debating here whether we should buy Mac Pros or if iMacs will do -- is the processing power arms race still relevant in editorial? What does the next generation of post look like to you? Is there any value for you in being out in front or the market, even if just a little bit?"

Like most questions, the answer is, "It depends." ;)

For editors that wear many hats (GFX, finishing, etc.,) I think the processing power arms race is still a factor (assuming they have clients that often push the envelope on the tech side). For editors that mainly edit (GFX, finishing, etc., are other done by others) I don't think you need the latest and greatest hardware any more. It's a far cry from 15 years ago when many people (including myself) had DV accelerator cards in our machines in order to get reliable DV playback (and some real time effects like dissolves).

Lots of people are still running the older Mac Towers (which are at least 5 years old) and doing okay with it as they contemplate getting a MacPro Tube, iMac or switching platforms to an HP tower. I'm still working on a lot of shows that offline in SD (mainly for storage reasons) and 10:1 or 14:1 Avid media isn't gonna stress anything these days. ;)


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Bill Davis
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 7:13:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'd guess somewhere between a car and a house.

Unless it's a really nice car and a not-so-nice house. Then I'd guess somewhere between a house and a car."


Hands down the best answer I've read here this year.

Walter, but for a quirk of fate, you may well have become a famous writer.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 7:07:04 pm

I went to go see Interstellar last weekend. It was very ambitious in terms of content, it had a lot of heady science without being over scienced, it dealt with a wide range of topics, including a new definition of what a "ghost" can be, it was also very human. I loved it. "We are explorers."

I look at this QQHD system and wonder what they can do with it besides push more pixels, and is that enough? What does QQHD do for me as a viewer? What do I need to explore?

Does this mean we can drive a more immersive theater? Can we change the shape of the screen? Is there a way to make me feel like we are doing new things instead of quadrupling the quadrupled? At what price?

[Walter Soyka] "is the processing power arms race still relevant in editorial?"

4k ProRes in FCPX is a breeze. It really is. What I like about 4k is that it makes for more creative HD in that I can do more with the 4k resolution in 1080, than I can with 1080 in 1080. With 8k, it seems like you'd need to shoot 16k (QQQHD) to have the same freedoms. That seems like an obscene amount of detail that borders on the limits of the physics of in camera technology and lenses that are currently manufactured, and not to mention, display.

For editorial, it just doesn't seem like you'd need 5GB/s, but perhaps I'm a ninny.

[Walter Soyka] "What does the next generation of post look like to you? I"

I don't think it's about the hardware, I think it will be about how the viewer interacts with the footage. It will require a tremendous amount of content, which may or may not be good for us as content creators. Again, my ninniness might be showing.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 22, 2014 at 2:26:21 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "4k ProRes in FCPX is a breeze. It really is. What I like about 4k is that it makes for more creative HD in that I can do more with the 4k resolution in 1080, than I can with 1080 in 1080. With 8k, it seems like you'd need to shoot 16k (QQQHD) to have the same freedoms."

You're talking about reframing in post here? What about shooting 8K to allow 4K mastering with post-framing?


[Walter Soyka] "What does the next generation of post look like to you?"

[Jeremy Garchow] "I don't think it's about the hardware, I think it will be about how the viewer interacts with the footage. It will require a tremendous amount of content, which may or may not be good for us as content creators."

Interesting! Do you care to elaborate?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 23, 2014 at 3:08:17 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 23, 2014 at 6:25:48 pm

[Walter Soyka] "You're talking about reframing in post here? What about shooting 8K to allow 4K mastering with post-framing?
"


Not just reframing, but being able to do software based camera moves, and make better edit decisions with the higher resolution.

The Pablo system is decidedly an 8k system, though, right? Not a 4k mastering system (although I'm sure it will do just fine at that, too). The Pablo system is designed to display 8k, which means in order to have 'reframing' you'd need to shoot 16k. Shooting 8k for 4k is fine (provided you have an 8k camera), but that's not what the Pablo system seems to be selling.


[Walter Soyka] "Interesting! Do you care to elaborate?"

It's nothing fancy, although maybe it could be.

What's that old saying? Once you have children, you will always see the world through their eyes?

I look at where my little son is starting from in terms of content and technology. I watch how he interacts with it, how he chooses to watch it, where those choices come from, who is generating it, and why. He gets confused when I am talking on the phone, asks to "see" who I am talking to, and when I show him that there's no video call, he literally doesn't quite get it. He Facetimes his grandmas and even other friends, so to him, phone calls involve video.

Even today, you can get a brand new season of a show on a streaming service, and churn through the material with breakneck speed. This is going to create huge demand for more programming, and production is going to get even more slender in terms of budget and time, just to fill the demand, but content providers will need the content to stay relevant. Then, if you start throwing resolutions around (adding 4 or 8k) there'll be very little material that will be worth watching on your 85" 8k TV/Device that you picked up at the local store for $499.

I just feel like hardware development is moving so fast, that resolution isn't going to do much for us but create demand that is going to be difficult to supply. So, perhaps a hybrid approach of user generated content, as well as professionally created content is going to be the answer. It may have to be the answer.

Soon, everyone will have a 4k video camera in their pocket, and then everyone will want to display 4k, and then soon after that, it will be 8k. I just don't think resolution is going to be an impressive enough selling point to get more people to view more things, or buy more content. Something else is going to have to happen to up the viewing ante. What will it be? 8k? I just don't know if it has enough chutzpa.

To provide anecdotal evidence, we are getting many more requests to shoot ultra high speed footage. Once you put the bid together for a phantom shoot and all that it entails, clients start to wonder if we are pulling their legs once they see the cost. Their frame of reference is that their cell phone can shoot 240fps (or shoot 4k video). If my cell phone can do it, why does it cost so much to get 3000fps? or 20000fps? And when shooting at such high frame rates, why is the resolution so low?

The lines are blurred as to what constitutes "high end" because arguably, there isn't one, or isn't much of one, when it comes to equipment/hardware. In the average person's eyes, "their cell phone can do it" or come close, then paying us professionals to do it in a professional way becomes a difficult sell.

I'm not proposing that the Pablo 8k system is not high end, or that this is a "sky is falling" argument but rather a bit of a reality in the market of today, and certainly tomorrow.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 23, 2014 at 7:16:45 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Even today, you can get a brand new season of a show on a streaming service, and churn through the material with breakneck speed."

With regards to streaming series like House of Cards or Alpha House I don't see them really rocking the boat from a production stand point. Each season is released a year apart and they are only 13 episode seasons.


[Jeremy Garchow] "The lines are blurred as to what constitutes "high end" because arguably, there isn't one, or isn't much of one, when it comes to equipment/hardware. In the average person's eyes, "their cell phone can do it" or come close, then paying us professionals to do it in a professional way becomes a difficult sell."

Hasn't this been going on for a while (and will continue to go on)? The whole "My nephew has a flip camera and FCP on his iMac..." thing.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm not proposing that the Pablo 8k system is not high end, or that this is a "sky is falling" argument but rather a bit of a reality in the market of today, and certainly tomorrow."

I like to look at the market, and our industry, as expanding from point A, to point B, to point C as opposed to moving from A to B to C. 100 years ago there was just film. Then there was film and broadcast TV. Then there was film, broadcast TV and cable TV. Then film, b'cast, cable and direct-to-video. Now ti's film, b'cast, cable, direct-to-video, self-distribution via streaming (commercial content) and UGC (user generated content) via streaming.

Something like a Pablo 8k systems doing big budget, feature films and a web-cam recording a YouTuber giving makeup tips can co-exist because they serve different markets. For content creators the emergence of these new trends and distribution methods isn't an either/or situation. If I was a content distributor I'd be worried about what's going on though.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 24, 2014 at 12:52:12 am
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 24, 2014 at 1:30:54 am

[Andrew Kimery] "With regards to streaming series like House of Cards or Alpha House I don't see them really rocking the boat from a production stand point. Each season is released a year apart and they are only 13 episode seasons."

Which follows a very precise model. Looking at the world through my son's eyes, this model may not be relevant for much longer. There will need to be more House of Cardziz, or a longer season, or shorter time between seasons, or...more content.

[Andrew Kimery] "Hasn't this been going on for a while (and will continue to go on)? The whole "My nephew has a flip camera and FCP on his iMac..." thing. "

Yes it has, but the flip cams of the world are catching up with some features of the Phantom cams of the world. Some flip cams have more features than "professional" cameras. It's not overwhelming, there's still a huge difference between the best cell phone video and the best film/Digital Cinema, but who is noticing? And when do they notice?

[Andrew Kimery] "I like to look at the market, and our industry, as expanding from point A, to point B, to point C as opposed to moving from A to B to C. 100 years ago there was just film. Then there was film and broadcast TV. Then there was film, broadcast TV and cable TV. Then film, b'cast, cable and direct-to-video. Now ti's film, b'cast, cable, direct-to-video, self-distribution via streaming (commercial content) and UGC (user generated content) via streaming.

Something like a Pablo 8k systems doing big budget, feature films and a web-cam recording a YouTuber giving makeup tips can co-exist because they serve different markets. For content creators the emergence of these new trends and distribution methods isn't an either/or situation. If I was a content distributor I'd be worried about what's going on though."


I feel like today it's not just moving to point C, there are times when it feels like we are jumping to point H. Media is absolutely everywhere. I went to game at the United Center (big sports/concert arena) a few weeks ago, and the building is essentially surrounded with moving image screens. The screens are broken up by the architecture of the building. Each one can run their own program, or they can combine and form one larger screen when the content is split across all of them. I feel like there are more opportunities for content to be played almost anywhere, but what is there to fill it?

And sure, 8k systems are fulfilling the highest end needs (I think, what the hell finishes in 8k, IMAX DI?), but how long is that going to last? Why would people go see an 8k movie? What is it going to offer on the same size screens that we have today? And as an advertiser, are you going to want to support a limited 8k viewing audience, or so you want to hit as many pockets of every device carrier that you can? Yes, YouTubers and 8k viewers are (potentially) different markets, and of course they can coexist, but will they?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 6:11:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Which follows a very precise model. Looking at the world through my son's eyes, this model may not be relevant for much longer. There will need to be more House of Cardziz, or a longer season, or shorter time between seasons, or...more content."

I feel like I'm not getting what you are saying. There will be more 'TV-like' original content made by Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc.,. and there will be more content made for digital signage and other things that used to just be static images but now can be moving images. More content means more people making content. Brining this back around to the forum's namesake, I think this is a big reason why Apple set its sights on the 'broad middle' with FCPX because there are way, way more people were editing video content is another hat they have to wear at times than people that wear the editing hat all day, every day.



[Jeremy Garchow] " And as an advertiser, are you going to want to support a limited 8k viewing audience, or so you want to hit as many pockets of every device carrier that you can?"

Why is it an either/or choice?


[Jeremy Garchow] "Yes, YouTubers and 8k viewers are (potentially) different markets, and of course they can coexist, but will they?"

I don't understand why they wouldn't as they serve different areas. To me it's kinda like wondering how poetry, novels, essays, short stories, screenplays, news stories, magazines stories, blogs, etc., can all coexist since they are all variations of words on a page/screen. I see the world of video as expanding and becoming more stratified, not as a fixed-sized entity where something existing has to disappear in order to make room for something new to appear.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 8:39:03 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I feel like I'm not getting what you are saying. There will be more 'TV-like' original content made by Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc.,. "

This started with a question, does 8kp60 get us anything, and what does the future of post look like?

My response was, as the newer generation expects content at a breakneck pace, what does that do to content? You can, if you're dedicated, digest a 13 episode web released season in a matter of evenings, or a week or two. How fast can you write, produce, shoot, edit, and legalify a show like House of Cards? Who is going to pay to do that at this new pace? Where you needed to have a couple of big shows like House of Cards to fulfill both time and advertising, you now need many many more shows, to fill the time, or else people will get bored and move to some other service. And will 8k60p help in this process?

[Andrew Kimery] "More content means more people making content. Brining this back around to the forum's namesake, I think this is a big reason why Apple set its sights on the 'broad middle' with FCPX because there are way, way more people were editing video content is another hat they have to wear at times than people that wear the editing hat all day, every day. "

Yes it means more people making more content, at a lower price, and, I think, with different expectations. Does this mean 8k is the future? Let's say 8k is reserved for movies. What does 8k do for me as a viewer? Do we need to build all new theaters? What is going to get the kids out to see the movies? The adults? The adults bringing the kids?

[Andrew Kimery] "[Jeremy Garchow] " And as an advertiser, are you going to want to support a limited 8k viewing audience, or so you want to hit as many pockets of every device carrier that you can?"

Why is it an either/or choice?
"


Certainly it's not, but how many people are going to need to see an 8k movie in the future, and how much content do you have to produce in 8k to make it worth it?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 9:04:30 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Certainly it's not, but how many people are going to need to see an 8k movie in the future, and how much content do you have to produce in 8k to make it worth it?"

By the time 8k goes mainstream it won't be anymore expensive (relatively speaking) than HD was a few years ago. HD used to be expensive and now it's dirt cheap. When the RED One came out 4k was exotic and now it's on DSLRs and some cell phones. We spent decades on SD, then had a hell of a time switching from analog to digital (and HD at the same time), but now that everything in the content production and distribution chain is digital (and very file based) we are seeing things advance the speed computers and technology advances. Going up to a new resolution just requires fast computer chips and an upgrade computer code. Okay, that's a big of an over simplification, but it's much easier than having to engineer a and deploy a new tape-based format

I guess I see 4k (and eventually 8k) becoming a new norm the same way HD has. Eventually camera makers, TV makers (people that always need a reason to get customers to buy the next thing) will just stop making HD gear and we'll all migrate to 4k (and much later to 8k) by default.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 24, 2014 at 3:54:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I look at where my little son is starting from in terms of content and technology. I watch how he interacts with it, how he chooses to watch it, where those choices come from, who is generating it, and why. He gets confused when I am talking on the phone, asks to "see" who I am talking to, and when I show him that there's no video call, he literally doesn't quite get it. He Facetimes his grandmas and even other friends, so to him, phone calls involve video."

My son recently asked me was a jukebox was. I told him it was like a big iPod that restaurants used to have. If you wanted to listen to a certain song, you could put in a coin, select the song, and it would play for everyone in the restaurant.

He said, "Oh, OK."

Then, after a little pause: "Pop, what's an iPod?"

I knew the world looked different to him than it did to me, but prior to that conversation, I didn't realize just how little our schema for understanding media really had in common.

A few months prior, we were driving on the highway and he asked to listen to some song or another. I told him I didn't have it in the car. He told me very matter-of-factly that I could just download it.

One of my favorite "from the mouths of babes" story in media isn't mine, but one I heard from a media executive somewhere along the line. His daughter was watching some Disney movie on Spinning Optical Disc, and a preview for The Little Mermaid came on. Upon seeing this, she complained, "Daddy, don't they know we already have The Little Mermaid?"

Setting aside that latent, vaguely disturbing "them," mass media today has become a touch-friendly, Big-Data-driven machine, geared for always-on, on-the-go, on-line, on-demand consumption.

Then again, mass media has always been as much of all that as the technology of the day would allow.

I thought I was too young to be a dinosaur (roar!) just yet, but gosh, isn't that a lovely shooting star in the sky...


[Jeremy Garchow] "The lines are blurred as to what constitutes "high end" because arguably, there isn't one, or isn't much of one, when it comes to equipment/hardware. In the average person's eyes, "their cell phone can do it" or come close, then paying us professionals to do it in a professional way becomes a difficult sell."

I find that both the high end and everybody else tragically underestimate what the other group can accomplish.

I'm torn between the ideas that we are approaching the limits of human perception and that there is always room for improvement.

I wonder if the race to the bottom is real, and if it is, what will happen to advancement after we've killed off the pioneers making 8K finishing systems that cost as much as houses that maybe nobody even needs yet.

Gotta run, I think there are some kids playing on my lawn.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 24, 2014 at 10:45:18 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Setting aside that latent, vaguely disturbing "them," mass media today has become a touch-friendly, Big-Data-driven machine, geared for always-on, on-the-go, on-line, on-demand consumption.

Then again, mass media has always been as much of all that as the technology of the day would allow."


It's very true. Certainly, the internet has a little bit of a different infrastructure than terrestrial and satellite broadcast. Although, if certain lobbies get their certain ways, I think the *cough* 'freedom' of the internet will suddenly feel pretty claustrophobic. Not to get too politicky, but you know...it involves politics and I feel like the outcome will shape what kind of future our kids will have the chance in which to participate.*

Playing Captain Obvious here, but there is a huge amount of fragmentation at the moment. There is not a regimented programming schedule. TV Shows, movies, and other content can find second lives, or first lives, on time shifted streaming services. In the days of yesteryear, everyone was talking about who shot JR on the same day. It was so popular that (citing Wikipedia) "...a session of the Turkish parliament was suspended to allow legislators a chance to get home in time to view the conclusion of the cliffhanger."

That doesn't happen anymore. Now it's like:

"Did you see? JR was shot!"

"No, I'm only on season 3.338, I still have 2.662 seasons to go."

"Oh, wow ... well ... spoiler alert, they shot him! "


Sure, as a content creator, you can find a lot more niche audiences today, but how do you find them, and will you find them in time to make more content?



[Walter Soyka] "I find that both the high end and everybody else tragically underestimate what the other group can accomplish.

I'm torn between the ideas that we are approaching the limits of human perception and that there is always room for improvement."


Precisely. I have no doubt that a new experience can and will be "invented" that goes beyond another attempt at 3D and QQQHD**, and perhaps 8k (QQHD) will be the holy grail, and joins the smash hits of technology that finally allows 3D to make sense, but I imagine that taking advantage of programatic technology is going to be crucial more so than resolution. Personally, I don't think it's a race to the bottom. I do think that we are in the middle of a major shift in how content is created, delivered, and of course, valued. Right now, it's rather large discovery mission, as well a search for longer lasting batteries.

I also think that bandwidth, at least in this country, is a huge controlling factor. Control the bandwidth, and you can control the content (and perhaps the innovation, for the better and probably for worse).

That shooting star sure is pretty!




*Sidenote: This is a fascinating documentary about patents, Ma Bell, and one guy who is too-smart-for-his-own-good:







**After 3Q HD comes four-que HD! :-D


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John Rofrano
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 1:36:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I do think that we are in the middle of a major shift in how content is created, delivered, and of course, valued. Right now, it's rather large discovery mission, as well a search for longer lasting batteries. "
Absolutely and, in a way, this is a good thing. It was never about the technology... it was always about the content. The girl giving fashion tips on YouTube from her iPhone camera with a million subscribers is providing compelling content for other girls her age. That's all that matters. The fact that my iPhone shoots video as good as my $5000 Sony camera when displayed on a mobile device levels the playing field. Anyone who has the talent to provide the content can capture an audience. Technology enables this, but it is just a means to and end where the end is providing compelling content.

Even in ENG, large production pipelines are being replaced with reporters actually editing in the field and delivering ready-for-air content. The game is constantly changing and the rules are continually being redefined. Technology is certainly influencing the rules by what we can now do. The question is, what can we do with 4K or 8K that we can't do now with HD? I know that HD content acquired from 4K looks better but there is no way to deliver 4K resolution and if you think people are going to buy new TV's every 2 years as we move from 4K to 8K to 16K... think again. You have to ask yourself... How many pixels are enough?

I saw the new 4K monitors at NAB and yes they are absolutely gorgeous and no doubt it's better than HD... but our kids are not watching 4K TV's even if we had them. They are watching on their mobile devices which makes 4K delivery a "novelty" not the "norm". For the average audience, 8K at 60p doesn't matter.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 2:58:26 pm

John, I think there's an interesting contradiction in here, and I'd like to tease it out a bit.

I don't mean to argue with you personally. I think we as a group here are discounting the importance of technology in this discussion (and while I'm at it, that we elevate technology sometimes beyond its real importance). More on that in a minute.

I've broken your comment up into two claims.

(1) It was never about the technology... it was always about the content. The girl giving fashion tips on YouTube from her iPhone camera with a million subscribers is providing compelling content for other girls her age. That's all that matters.

(2) The fact that my iPhone shoots video as good as my $5000 Sony camera when displayed on a mobile device levels the playing field.



Statement (1) suggests by example that content (fashion tips on YouTube) is all-important -- moreso than the technology ("That's all that matters.").

Statement (2) says that the "good enough" revolution has leveled the playing field -- suggesting that it was not level before, and that perhaps technology does play a role after all.

If the content is all that matters, why do we feel the need to make statements like 2? Could you have a successful makeup tips channel with absolutely great content, but without a high-quality imaging system?



[John Rofrano] "It was never about the technology... it was always about the content. ... Anyone who has the talent to provide the content can capture an audience. Technology enables this, but it is just a means to and end where the end is providing compelling content. "

I think that technology is creating entirely new media. New media means new rules, new tactics and strategies, new approaches to communication.

For a thought experiment, replace the YouTube/mobile technologies that Michelle Phan has so effectively used with her YouTube channel. What would Michelle Phan's makeup tips look like with Spinning Optical Disc distribution? A touring live seminar? A glossy mailing? A book?

Here's a challenge for the group: define the word "content" in such a way that it's totally separate from its enabling technology.

One does not simply transplant content from one medium or technological basis to another. When we adapt books into movies, we don't just throw the book on a rostrum and turn the pages. We let books be books and movies be movies. Technology is a fundamental part of content's identity.

Book-to-movie is an extreme example, but surely 8mm film and 8K at 60p provide different experiences and merit different treatment, too. And 16mm. And 35mm. And 2K/24p. And 4K/48p.


[John Rofrano] "The question is, what can we do with 4K or 8K that we can't do now with HD? I know that HD content acquired from 4K looks better but there is no way to deliver 4K resolution and if you think people are going to buy new TV's every 2 years as we move from 4K to 8K to 16K... think again. You have to ask yourself... How many pixels are enough?"

I am biased in all this, because I work in large-format, where you can never have enough pixels. I'm currently trying to work out cost-effective ways to produce content for a raster that's a little more than double 8K.

Looking at the home, I'd want to pause a little on the Hunt for RED Resolution and focus on increased bit depth and dynamic range, especially on the display side. I'm really sympathetic to the "limit of human perception" argument about ever-increasing resolution, but 1) nobody asked me, and 2) 4K on a 4K display still looks different than downscaled 4K on a 1080p display, so maybe we're not actually at the perceptual limit yet.

You can deliver high-quality content outside of the broadcast infrastructure. You can buy a 5K iMac today, so there's one device that 4K isn't quite enough for.

But let me turn the question around. Rather than pointing to the work we're doing now as a reason we don't need technological advances, let's think about we can do creatively with new technologies.

What stories can you tell with 8K at 60p better than you could tell with 2K at 24p?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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John Rofrano
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 5:20:41 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Nov 25, 2014 at 5:24:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If the content is all that matters, why do we feel the need to make statements like 2? Could you have a successful makeup tips channel with absolutely great content, but without a high-quality imaging system?"
I would hate to answer "it depends" but you got me thinking... If I was showing how beautiful a product or results was, then technology does matter because it allows me to truly show off that beauty. If however, I was telling a great story like... oh... The Blair Witch Project... then technology really doesn't matter... shaky handy-cam footage will do.

Let's talk about the same content. Jeremy said that he just saw Interstellar and he loved it. "We are Explorers" was the theme. No doubt it looked a lot better than a 1966 Start Trek episode with the same theme but was it any more or less compelling? That is the real question. (I picked Start Trek because the stories were about the human condition) Did all of the technology used in Interstellar make it more immersive than 2001 A Space Odyssey and was it the imagery that made the difference?

I guess we could be having the same discussion on an audiophile forum. There are people who buy expensive audio hardware so that they can hear every nuance of the music, and then there are those of us who grew up buying something called "A Stereo HiFi" which was how everyone else experienced music back then, and now there is the MP3 generation which defines LowFi! At the end of the day, a good song, is a good song, regardless of what you play it on.... and a good movie is a good movie regardless of what you watch it on.

So I'm of the belief that technology only comes into play when what you are "seeing" is more important than what you are "feeling".
[Walter Soyka] "But let me turn the question around. Rather than pointing to the work we're doing now as a reason we don't need technological advances, let's think about we can do creatively with new technologies."
That's a good question. Clearly the invention of the Action Cam (e.g., GoPro, Replay XD, Contour, etc.) has massively changed how we develop content. They take us placed that we could never have gone to tell stories we may never had been able to tell. So that's an example of technology sparking creativity. I'm not sure how 8K 60p is going to do that but I guess that's the question you're asking... where can 8K 60p take us? (...let me ponder)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 5:54:51 pm

[John Rofrano] "Did all of the technology used in Interstellar make it more immersive than 2001 A Space Odyssey and was it the imagery that made the difference? "

Both Interstellar and 2001 used some of the best technology of their respective eras though. 2001 is a great story, but I doubt it would be the movie classic it is if it was shot in Kubrick's basement on an 8mm Brownie camera with repurposed cardboard boxes for sets. ;)


[John Rofrano] " I'm not sure how 8K 60p is going to do that but I guess that's the question you're asking... where can 8K 60p take us? (...let me ponder)"

An 8k image streamed to a 4k device could allow users to zoom in and reframe a video stream the same way they zoom in and reframe a digital picture. Match that with some sort of tracking technology and it would be a cool way for people watching sports to pick their own region of interest to watch. For example, they could stay with the default wide shot or adjust the image so they are all ways tracking their favorite player. I could see similar usefulness in educational and wildlife films. The camera guy captures a wide shot of the Serengeti and then the students get to pan/zoom around on their iPads to look at whatever they want.

I think I saw Sony (or someone) do a kinda similar demo where they had a stationary 4k camera shooting a soccer match on a wide shot and basically did a live pan and scan to an HD output to follow the action. The big difference is that with my example the user controls the reframing.


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Shawn Miller
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 7:42:55 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " 2001 is a great story, but I doubt it would be the movie classic it is if it was shot in Kubrick's basement on an 8mm Brownie camera with repurposed cardboard boxes for sets. ;)"

lol - I think Michel Gondry did just that in Be Kind Rewind... :-)

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 6:06:03 pm

Thanks for the dialog, John -- this is the fun stuff I really love about this forum.


[John Rofrano] "If however, I was telling a great story like... oh... The Blair Witch Project... then technology really doesn't matter... shaky handy-cam footage will do."

See, I'd argue that technology mattered a great deal to the effectiveness of The Blair Witch Project. The medium was the message. Handheld 16mm/Hi8/whatever (the technology) was inseparable from the "found footage" idea that sold this to the audience as maybe, just maybe, a real documentary. BWP would probably be an utterly unremarkable film if it had been shot on 35mm with steadycam and cranes.


[John Rofrano] "Jeremy said that he just saw Interstellar and he loved it. "We are Explorers" was the theme. No doubt it looked a lot better than a 1966 Start Trek episode with the same theme but was it any more or less compelling? That is the real question."

Interesting question. How well could a brand new audience, one that's conditioned to expect a certain level of production and one without a pre-existing cultural acceptance, suspend their disbelief watching ST:TOS?

(I think in large part they would suspend disbelief based on the strength of the writing, deus-ex-machina episodes aside, but I'd bet that they'd occasionally be shaken out of the drama a bit by the acting and the limits of the effects of the day.)


[John Rofrano] "At the end of the day, a good song, is a good song, regardless of what you play it on.... and a good movie is a good movie regardless of what you watch it on. "

But surely listening to a song with white earbuds and listening to it in concert is different? And surely watching a movie on your iPhone is a different experience than watching it on your TV, which is a different experience than watching it in a movie theater?

Put another way -- if you were making a movie intended to be shown on iPhones, would you make different creative choices than for one intended to be shown in theaters?


[John Rofrano] "So I'm of the belief that technology only comes into play when what you are "seeing" is more important than what you are "feeling". "

With a really good movie, isn't seeing the same as feeling?

Can you effectively convey the vastness of space on an iPhone screen? Does that change in viewing scale change your emotional response as a viewer?


[John Rofrano] "I'm not sure how 8K 60p is going to do that but I guess that's the question you're asking... where can 8K 60p take us? (...let me ponder)"

Inquiring minds want to know. (And so does Quantel!)

Really, thanks again for engaging. I obviously have a point of view here (I think that the history of "film" is one long love affair with technology moreso than other traditional art forms), but I mean this as more exploratory than argumentative. I do try to save argumentative for other topics.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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John Rofrano
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 26, 2014 at 2:06:14 pm

[Walter Soyka] "this is the fun stuff I really love about this forum."
Agreed. This is the stuff technology can't replace. ;-) (our creative mind)
[Walter Soyka] "I'd argue that technology mattered a great deal to the effectiveness of The Blair Witch Project. The medium was the message."
I have to concede. So this is interesting. Our "technological frame of reference" helped sell the story. I hadn't thought about how this affects us. In Forest Gump, for example, the flashbacks are immediately identified by their technology (i.e., B&W, or circa 1960's color). The same is true for the 2-strip color process of early film. So in that respect, technology sets the theme in certain circumstances. I hadn't considered that.
[Walter Soyka] "But surely listening to a song with white earbuds and listening to it in concert is different? And surely watching a movie on your iPhone is a different experience than watching it on your TV, which is a different experience than watching it in a movie theater?"
Yes, but is that lost on the iPhone generation? Will the experience be appreciated? Can only people like you and me appreciate it? Getting back to my other post about my wife always watching SD. For me there is a big difference between stretched SD and a proper aspect HD image. For me it ruins the movie. For my wife and kids it doesn't matter. They actually yell at me when I switch to an HD version of the same channel!
[Walter Soyka] "Put another way -- if you were making a movie intended to be shown on iPhones, would you make different creative choices than for one intended to be shown in theaters?"
Should we? As an audio engineer I know I mix different for small speakers than for large ones. From a movie perspective we mix audio at different levels for broadcast and theatre. In a live stage performance we exaggerate our actions because the audience is quite a distance and subtleties will be lost unless you do (which, btw, is why William Shatner appeared "larger than life" in Star Trek because he was a stage actor and he brought that to TV but it didn't quite translate the same!) So YES, I believe I would make different creative choices if I knew that my movie would only be seen on a device too small to see the subtleties of the message.
[Walter Soyka] "Can you effectively convey the vastness of space on an iPhone screen? Does that change in viewing scale change your emotional response as a viewer?"
Hmmm... emotional response is an interesting topic.I have a particular soft spot for a "live" string quartet. There is something about the sound of the rosin on the bow as it connects with the string that you can't capture in a recording. When I went to see American Idiot on Broadway they had a live string quartet and it brought shivers down my spine (i.e., an emotional response). I don't think my son sitting next to me felt quite the same way. Perhaps it's because I'm a musician? Perhaps it's something else. The question is whether advances in technology like 8K60p will be appreciated by future audiences or have mobile devices desensitized them to it?
[Walter Soyka] "Really, thanks again for engaging. I obviously have a point of view here (I think that the history of "film" is one long love affair with technology moreso than other traditional art forms), but I mean this as more exploratory than argumentative."
I think I'm beginning to see where you are coming from. Technology has a greater impact that I was giving it credit for. So now we need to figure out what will 8K60p gives us that we didn't have before and what will we do with it? (... oh sorry, that was your question) ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 7:28:01 pm

[John Rofrano] "Anyone who has the talent to provide the content can capture an audience. Technology enables this, but it is just a means to and end where the end is providing compelling content. "

Sure. But how does the effect me, as a content creator for hire, that can provide compelling content?

How does it effect the people that want to buy that content?


[John Rofrano] "I saw the new 4K monitors at NAB and yes they are absolutely gorgeous and no doubt it's better than HD... but our kids are not watching 4K TV's even if we had them. They are watching on their mobile devices which makes 4K delivery a "novelty" not the "norm". For the average audience, 8K at 60p doesn't matter."

I see it a bit differently. I do think the technology matters, and of course, the content has to be 'compelling'. What is different is that today, you can have a 4k camera in your pocket, and soon that will be attached to a 4k pocket monitor, or you can beam your 4k content to the 4k monitor on the wall, wirelessly. The "high-end" gear, and the pocket gear are closer in technological terms than ever before. So while the argument could be made that 8kp60 won't matter from a resolution standpoint, I am saying it will matter because you will be able to do it from your pocket, and what does that do to the Pablo Rio?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 7:54:57 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am saying it will matter because you will be able to do it from your pocket, and what does that do to the Pablo Rio?"

The same thing it does for a Pablo today even though people already have HD cameras and HD monitors in their pockets?

Some situations/clients will find a pocket-sized solution meets their goals and others will want something that comes with a grip truck right?

These last few posts I feel like I'm questioning everything your are say Jeremy and I'm not trying to be contrarian. I think we swim in different circles and without having your direct experience I think I'm having trouble hitting that 'aha moment' where I can really understand where you are coming from.

For me, as a freelance editor, I don't worry too much about HD, 2k, 4k, b'cast, streaming, mobile, etc., outside of technical aspects (i.e. 4k requires more HDD space than HD and b'cast will have to meet b'cast specs) because editing is editing. Yes there are nuances to each screen (i.e. epic vista shots play much better on a theater screen than an iPhone screen) but editing is editing. Some other editors I know are worried about the disruption going on when it comes to new media vs old media but I'm like, why worry? From our perspective there's nothing different between editing a show that's going to air on NBC vs editing a show that's going to stream on Netflix.

For people running their own shops (and you may be one Jeremy, I'm not sure) and having a more B2C business (where as I'm mainly B2B) I can certainly see how changing formats, trends, and customer expectations can be a royal PITA.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 9:44:35 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The same thing it does for a Pablo today even though people already have HD cameras and HD monitors in their pockets?"

We were prothelisizing the future, and I surmised that the difference in between pockets and shoulders is becoming less clear. Ask grip truck owners, they will say a lot of the same thing. Sure, you sometimes still need big ole lights, but often times, you don't, and a few highlights with hand made LED strips will be just fine running off of an Anton for most of the day. This singularity isn't happening today, but I feel it's kind of close, and technology becoming much smaller, faster, cheaper, easier to use, easier to program/customize, and at decent quality, benefits some of us, but does it benefit all of us?

Also, it's fine, I don't think there's an a-ha moment here! I don't have any answers.

[Andrew Kimery] "For me, as a freelance editor, I don't worry too much about HD, 2k, 4k, b'cast, streaming, mobile, etc., outside of technical aspects (i.e. 4k requires more HDD space than HD and b'cast will have to meet b'cast specs) because editing is editing."

I get that. I delivered my second 4k (as a deliverable) spot today. Yesterday, I was in the audio post room, and I had my laptop out, not even plugged in to the wall, and double checking edits and graphics in full 4k quality. It is amazing when you think about it. I could not have done this 5 years ago. So, what's the next 24 years going to bring? Things aren't slowing down, certain entities are getting much larger, technology is getting much more efficient. Where is 8kp60 going to help us and should we chase that carrot? Maybe we should, I don't know.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 10:34:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This singularity isn't happening today, but I feel it's kind of close, and technology becoming much smaller, faster, cheaper, easier to use, easier to program/customize, and at decent quality, benefits some of us, but does it benefit all of us?"

I certainly agree that the downsizing/democratization of gear is making many things optional that used to be a requirement. Does it benefit all of us? No. It only benefits people that recognize what's happening and can either adapt to it or move to someplace that isn't as impacted by the change at hand.

For people that are good at what they do I think they'll be able roll with the punches. For people that aren't that good at what they do but got business anyway because they were the only one in town that owned the required gear, well, those guys might be in trouble.

It also benefits people that are talented but could never get their hands on the expensive gear that used to be required (expensive being a relative term of course). Some day (sooner rather than later in 1st world countries) video production is going to be another common form of literacy where the tools required (on the most basic end) will be as common as pencil and paper. People still make a living off the written word (even though the skills and tools are ubiquitous) so I'm confident that people will also still be able to make a living producing videos for generations to come.

[Jeremy Garchow] "here is 8kp60 going to help us and should we chase that carrot? Maybe we should, I don't know."

I'm going to wait for the carrot to be within arm's reach before I try to grab it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 3:11:52 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Control the bandwidth, and you can control the content"

Did you just sneak in a Dune reference?


[Jeremy Garchow] "Sure, as a content creator, you can find a lot more niche audiences today, but how do you find them, and will you find them in time to make more content?"

Question: how does this change the way we produce content? What new toolsets would be helpful?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 6:02:35 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 25, 2014 at 6:04:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Did you just sneak in a Dune reference?"

I thought variety was a spice, not bandwidth? ;)


[Walter Soyka] "[Jeremy Garchow] "Sure, as a content creator, you can find a lot more niche audiences today, but how do you find them, and will you find them in time to make more content?"

Question: how does this change the way we produce content? What new toolsets would be helpful?
"


A client subscribe action, where as clients would subscribe, at least for a year, with guaranteed rates and early termination penalties. We would, in turn, provide tremendous service as well as a vast archive of material to draw from (of which, of course, we have the right to own, and clients must call me in order to access it if their subscription has lapsed). Who can write that code for me?

For the rest of the world? I'd imagine for most it won't be an 8k Pablo Rio, or an 8k RedArri machine (pronounced reh-dairy). Cheap tools are pretty good in that you can tease great quality out of low cost items, and you add a little writing, lighting, and a microphone ... and you can get pretty decent. What seems to be winning right now, is convenience; the convenience of being able to watch what you want, when you want it. That requires loads of content, and the value of the producing the content is lowered, even though people need more of it. I guess it's pretty much the epitome of supply and demand.

There is also convenience with how many camera we bring on shoots these days. Sure, we have a main camera that is of very high quality, but then we have a small passle of lower quality camera that we can stick almost anywhere. This creates more content for me to deal with, and there is a massive shortage of time to get to the first cut. This is one of the things I like about FCPX so much, is that the presentation of the material in the browser allows a very quick and speedy access to all of this content. In my opinion, and for the work I do, there isn't a better tool for this.

So, I think the way that niche markets changes how we produce content is that the value is skewed. People see amazing things on the internet, and it's done quickly with pretty inexpensive gear. We are asked to do similar things, we propose our ideas, and then clients are shocked at how much it actually costs to do it in a way that is controllable, repeatable, and high enough quality to manipulate. It's an uphill battle. It always has been on some level, it just seems a lot more difficult today, as well as payment terms being shifted from 30 days to 90 or 120 days. This has also been very difficult.

I also think that technology will overtake some of our jobs. I think you sent out the automatic mulitcamera editing technology being developed. When is the moment coming where an editor or a motion graphics artist is going to be supplanted by an algorithm, because good enough is suddenly just plain good? Again, I don't meant sound alarmist, but these things do root around in my mind when I look at technological advancement. Also, I am not against technology, just to be clear.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 6:17:07 pm

Wow, there's a lot of food for thought in that post. Just one thing for a quick response right now:

[Jeremy Garchow] "I also think that technology will overtake some of our jobs. I think you sent out the automatic mulitcamera editing technology being developed. When is the moment coming where an editor or a motion graphics artist is going to be supplanted by an algorithm, because good enough is suddenly just plain good? Again, I don't meant sound alarmist, but these things do root around in my mind when I look at technological advancement. Also, I am not against technology, just to be clear."

Have you seen this?

"Here's something exciting: Autodesk's new computer-aided design software lets the designer specify the parameters of a solid (its volume, dimensions, physical strength, even the tools to be used in its manufacture and the amount of waste permissible in the process) and the software iterates through millions of potential designs that fit. The designer's job becomes tweaking the parameters and choosing from among the brute-forced problem-space of her object, rather than designing it from scratch."

http://boingboing.net/2014/05/20/design-as-paramterization-bru.html

Of course, even that job will become irrelevant when computers start designing things for computer consumption...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 25, 2014 at 10:00:17 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Have you seen this?"

No, but that sounds highly useful!

[Walter Soyka] "Of course, even that job will become irrelevant when computers start designing things for computer consumption..."







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TImothy Auld
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 7:08:15 pm

If by the next generation you mean 10-20 years from now, maybe. I can see 8K taking over the feature market sooner than that, maybe. But it has taken many years just for the HD home TV market to reach close to 80% penetration. 4K (or UHD as they so cleverly label it) is a long way off from home adoption, in my opinion. People won't even buy blu ray players. Not to mention that the broken down and hobbled internet service we have in this country can barely deliver HD at this point.

Tim


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 7:33:38 pm

[TImothy Auld] "But it has taken many years just for the HD home TV market to reach close to 80% penetration."

HD in the home was a cluster because it was a tech headache for all involved (broadcasters and home viewers) for a number of reasons. Internet delivery is a significantly smoother ride (at least from the user perspective). I mean, YouTube went from sub-SD streaming quality to 1080p in about 5 years and it was all pretty much invisible to end uses. Same with Netflix going from SD to HD (and now 4k) streaming.

Broadband in the US is certainly less than stellar (compared to many other industrialized nations) but the major ISPs in the US are all looking to launch (or have launched) their own IPTV/VOD services so I see them rolling out services fast enough to stream the content they are offering... for a price of course.

Sony, Samsung), Comcast, Netflix, Microsoft, Verizon, Amazon (streaming), etc., have all hopped on the 4k delivery bandwagon (not to mention a variety of consumer electronics shooting 4k) so I see the adoption of 4k happening because it will just become ubiquitous. HD-only TVs, cameras / camera phones, will start being phased out the same way SD-only gear was phased out. Not because people necessarily demand it, but because it's and easy upgrade to market and many people like to 'keep up win the Joneses'.


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John Rofrano
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 9:08:34 pm

[TImothy Auld] "But it has taken many years just for the HD home TV market to reach close to 80% penetration. 4K (or UHD as they so cleverly label it) is a long way off from home adoption, in my opinion. People won't even buy blu ray players. Not to mention that the broken down and hobbled internet service we have in this country can barely deliver HD at this point."
I agree. I can't even get my wife and kids to watch HD cable shows and we have all of the proper equipment. They are constantly watching SD channels stretch horizontally and they see nothing wrong with it and claim that I am the one who is "obsessed" with HD if I say anything. Most of my relatives that I visit are also watching SD stretched on their HD TV screens. If this is any indication of what's going on in other homes, no one is selling their HD TV's for 4K any time soon and forget about what comes after that. You can shoot whatever you want (4K, 6K, 8K) but I don't see a demand for content delivery in the home above HD any time soon because the average person really doesn't care.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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TImothy Auld
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 10:58:48 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "YouTube went from sub-SD streaming quality to 1080p in about 5 years and it was all pretty much invisible to end uses. Same with Netflix going from SD to HD (and now 4k) streaming."

No matter how they label it - SD, HD, 4K or whatever - the reality is that these streams are completely dependent on internet connection speed and their resolutions are automatically adjusted accordingly.

Tim


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Michael Gissing
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 21, 2014 at 11:13:20 pm

There is a reverse Moore's Law at play always. As the power and price of hardware comes down the power and bandwidth is soaked up by ever hungry video formats, frame rates and codecs. Drives get cheaper and bigger and faster but still seem full. I think it is bold to predict we are on the threshold of what can be further achieved so I don't think this trend is going to stop.

For my money higher frame rates and international standardisation of a HFR would be fantastic. But already we have legacy issues like 24-48 backwards compatibility. Shaving the .1% to remain faithful with a giant engineering mistake from last century NTSC broadcasting means we will also have 59.94 instead of just 60. I would love to see a single agreed frame rate for cinema and broadcast. Douglas Trumbull has done all the hard yards and I would be happy with 60fps for 2D and 60fps per stream for 3D.

I haven't seen 8k on a monitor or projection screen to see what spatial advantage there may be over 4k. Temporal resolution helps all frame sizes so if I were to go into bat as to what matters most then HFR should be the priority for our new found processing grunt.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 23, 2014 at 2:02:17 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Drives get cheaper and bigger and faster but still seem full. "

But really, they don't.

SSD drives, which I think we can agree on, are more expensive for less capacity. I would love to be able to replace our SAN drives with SSD and increase the capacity, and get more power out of the same number of drives, but it is prohibitive. Hard drives do not follow Moore's Law.

[Michael Gissing] "For my money higher frame rates and international standardisation of a HFR would be fantastic."

I completely agree. I think it will do more for the audience.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 23, 2014 at 6:53:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Hard drives do not follow Moore's Law."

I think HDD and SSD follow Moore's law but SSD's, being much new technology, just haven't hit a cost per gig number that's similar to HDDs yet.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 23, 2014 at 7:12:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I think HDD and SSD follow Moore's law but SSD's, being much new technology, just haven't hit a cost per gig number that's similar to HDDs yet.
"


Its just not as straight forward as processing. of course hard drives get faster and gain capacity, but not as exponentially as processing.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 22, 2014 at 12:09:44 am

[TImothy Auld] "No matter how they label it - SD, HD, 4K or whatever - the reality is that these streams are completely dependent on internet connection speed and their resolutions are automatically adjusted accordingly."

Right, which is why I also said that the ISPs (which have their own IPTV/VOD services) will gladly offer higher tiers of connection speeds to those willing to pay. Comcast, Timewarner, Verizon, AT&T, etc., want people to find reasons to saturate their current speeds so they'll upgrade.

The consumer world wasn't beating down the door for HD either but here we are. Given the choice today I doubt many people would by an SD TV or an SD video camera. The switch from analog b'casting to digital was required by the Feds but the move from SD to HD was not. It was a push from consumer electronic makers and studios/networks that saw a new revenue stream from a new format. SD TVs were phased out to 'encourage' people to buy HD TVs and HD sets will be phased out once 4k sets hit the right price point.

All of our 'screens' (TV, computer, tablet, phone, etc.,) will keep getting ramped up in resolution because it's the low hanging fruit of marketing bullet points. More pixels, more gigs, more this, more that. I mean, the original iPad Mini is the only iPad Apple still sells that has a sub-HD resolution. And that's par for the course in the tablet world. I'm sure TV set makers are just waiting for the iPhone/iPad that shoots 4k video because there will suddenly people 10's of millions of people with 4k video cameras that don't want to settle on streaming their 4k videos on a TV that's 'only' HD.


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TImothy Auld
Re: 8K at 60p, and the future of post?
on Nov 22, 2014 at 12:15:26 am

[Andrew Kimery] "TV set makers are just waiting for the iPhone/iPad that shoots 4k video because there will suddenly people 10's of millions of people with 4k video cameras that don't want to settle on streaming their 4k videos on a TV that's 'only' HD."

And in my opinion TV manufacturers are going to wait a very long time for that to happen. Because consumers will gladly settle for looking at content - either personal or purchased - on their phones or tablets and never take it any further than that.

Tim


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