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Bryan Keith
Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 7:46:18 pm

My heart sank when I saw the "new and improved" organization window that apple is using instead of the traditional viewer window. On top of that, I'm bothered by how stoked they were to show off the "filmstrip" view in order to scan thru your media. It way work for some, but I don't see this improving my workflow.

I really hope this is very customizable. To me it looks way too cluttered and busy. Just give me back my viewer window!!!

Bryan Keith
http://www.happylandstudio.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 7:51:43 pm

Yes. You are the only one.


I think it is a little early to condemn or laud the filmstrip concept. Especially until you actually try it out for real. It is, after all, not unlike what Walter Murch uses when he cuts.


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Bryan Keith
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 8:00:19 pm

Well I'm sure glad that Walter Murch likes it that way...but my point is that I sure hope apple make this a customizable feature. Not everybody has the same workflow and preferences.

Bryan Keith
http://www.happylandstudio.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 8:12:18 pm

We'll all know in June, I guess. My gut doesn not have an NDA, and it tels me FCP has always had multiple ways to do any one function, plus a lot of customizeability. So my expectation is that you can mix and match the new and old features you like to some extent.

My personal take-away so far though was that someone in Cupertino has been watching how I work and taking notes all this time. Creepy!:-)


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Chris Borjis
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 8:45:04 pm

several have mentioned that 3 point editing with a source window will be a configuration you can set it for.



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Reed Brown
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 26, 2011 at 4:22:00 am

I am one of those that are VERY VERY hopeful that 3 point editing will still be an option in X. 3 point editing just makes film sense -- the ability to compare the out point of an edit on the source side, and the edit in point on the record side -- all in side-by-side window configuration -- should not be underestimated. I hope that is NOT taken away!

I also like to set up a scene bin with clips in icon mode arranged in rows or groups of CU, WS, and all the other angles available for a scene. I can see at a glance exactly what's available to use. If I can now scrub more easily through that clip, so much the better. Ability to increase the size of the icon would be greatly appreciated in X!



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Paul Diaz
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 3:55:56 am

Well, you can try it out now in iMovie and I don't like it either.

I'm not on the iMovie Pro bandwagon, but it's hard to avoid the similarities. I do not like iMovie, at all. I don't care how much power it has in the background. The GUI is a toy!


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 8:54:01 pm

Are you referring to Murch's method of tacking up printed frame grabs from each shot and significant moment, on pasteboards around the room? If so, that not the equivalent of seeing a VERY limited number of tiny thumbnails representing a fraction of the film. And regardless, concerns over the missing Viewer have mor to do with a large side by side comparison of shot in Viewer bs shot in Canvas. And previewing a shot at full size for focus etc before cutting into the show. I love the organizational aspects of keywording, etc, and along with that, filmstripping is better than the old Browser, which I have said on Ken Stones forum, "is really just a crappy version on the Mac Finder.". So the new interface is good. BUT we still wonder if we can easily preview a shot at healthy size, and compare to a second shot, without a lot of steps involving gathering shots into "Audition" and them cutting them into a fake sequence....and STILL not seeing them side by side. It's a valid concern.


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Phil Bolles
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 9:07:23 pm

Murch uses FCP 7, which doesn't have filmstrip view, yes?


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 9:31:59 pm

That's my point re: Murch. He does like to tack up frame grabs on the wall -- but that doesn't mean he still doesn't rely on the current FCP Viewer for all of it's own advantages.


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Phil Bolles
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 11:02:47 pm

Sorry! Mine was supposed to be a reply to Mark.


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Bill Davis
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 1:55:04 am

Sorry, but your contention that " this is a valid concern" carries no weight.

This is because the way FCP X actually will function is currently unknown outside the Apple labs.

It was said over and over that this was a preview of the design in progress - and the demo was of the build in the same state as it was 3 months ago at the private previews.

It just struck me that WE EDITORS often get frustrated when clients demand to see edits "in progress" then waste our time with snap judgements about stuff that we've told them aren't finished. "No,Bob, as I mentioned before, this is just PLACEHOLDER type. The final type will NOT look like this."

It drives us crazy when clients can't understand the DIFFERENCE between a rough cut and the final cut.

Yet so many here are doing EXACTLY the same thing.

Ironic, no?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Bret Williams
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 3:55:53 am

I HAVE to use this moment to share "The Rough Cut Lady Song." Any editor that hasn't heard it - enjoy.

"No Duh we need graphics.... gee I hadn't thought of that..."





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Richard Dee
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 7:29:45 am

I'm confused. Is that a beer commercial? Why is there no video? Are you talking about me behind my back?


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Bret Williams
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 5:56:17 pm

It was only a rough cut!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 20, 2011 at 9:36:54 pm

I have had multiple iterations of freaking out about the filmstrip -

that being said - as an accompaniment/more likely use alternative/ to an invoked clip viewer (which I now pretty firmly believe it is) - its very interesting. in the use case scenario they showed, i found it highly seductive for quickly analysing and tagging ranges, perhaps not with with dense IV... but I honestly got a bit of a thrill up my leg, to quote chris mathews. it felt truly fast, the film strip did.

I could see myself quite enjoying that new joystick - a lot. People have made comparisons to discreet logic flame smoke methodology in the case of the filmstrip, and in conjunction with apple's lift from *edit to view sequence options - i really do think its apparent apple have been having multiple brain-fest sessions here. They're going for the total win. They're trying to win the game.

I will only say this - cast your minds eye to the potential interface fully extended to a 27" inch monitor, or across two monitors:
I. am. beyond. curious. about the kinds of options I have. It's using 4/8 cores say, 8/16 gigs of ram, (that's a desktop or a laptop) it's continuously rendering - and exists as a full 32 bit float space. It really is no small beans this.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 6:43:12 am

Gentlemen, has it ocurred to anyone who's losing sleep about this that just maybe the filmstrip will display on a video monitor via I/O devices (AJA, BM, Matrox) exactly like the viewer does now? Don't know about y'all, but I tend to think that's not gonna change, and I tend to use my video monitor a whole more than either my viewer or the canvas, both of which seem pretty useless to me most of the time.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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David Cherniack
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 6:44:34 pm

Hey David,

I sure hope you're right about that (for your sake) and I'm reasonably sure that it will prove true in time. However, the lack of any third party hw manufacturer jumping up and saying we'll be supporting FCP X leads one to think that it's not going to be so coming out of the gate.

BTW I think the 'X'- for unknown - at the end is highly appropriate, if surprisingly unintentional for a company that likes to control every detail of its products. 'Unknown' is the rather bowel loosening state of things and again, surprising for Apple. My best guess is the whole thing was a hurried decision triggered by their getting wind that Avid was about to make a highly attractive cross grade offer right in their own backyard. They got scared and tried to stop the anticipated bleed but have uncharacteristically shot themselves in one foot....the high end pro one...while, not surprisingly, energizing their fan boy one that believes it always walks on sainted ground.

Personally I think it's great they're trying to improve a UI that's 20 years old, though I can see that is really aimed at attracting the single screen wows of the consumer and low-end prosumers where they've found the real money is to be made. It may be that it's a one size fits all solution, including high end professionals, with options to turn off the stuff that will just get in the way but that's another thing left unsaid. Probably true, but likely to take a few years before the pro solutions get up to speed.

All in all, it's undoubtedly better for those who weren't up and cheering things like a magnetic timeline to take a deep breath, resist both the urge to panic and the one to indulge in wishful thinking, have a plan B at hand (like continuing to use FFCP 7 or trying out CS5.5) and waiting for the shoe to drop while hoping it doesn't bust a toe.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 7:06:50 pm

Nah - I am lately strongly inclined to agree with chris kenny on this - we are all reading the sum of all fears into this announcement - I still am, periodically. Apple had begun a process of previews with iOS and the like - I think they decided to take the stage at the meet and hoover up a good harvest of coverage - god knows that job was done.

what I don't think they fully realised was how much everyone would react. or .. perhaps they did. Either way - 8-10 weeks and we see the full software.
unlike iOS sadly.. there's no developer pack to pore over, and the beta testers are wearing shades and a cap...

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Cherniack
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 7:24:58 pm

I'm sure the coverage they knew they'd get it was part of it, but the hurried nature of the decision is not their usual behaviour. I think it would have looked bad if Avid had come in with their offer on their own UG stage. As much as they denigrate the competition they very well know that Avid rules the high end and after all the rumblings since last years meet they, Apple fergodsake, made a rash decision.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Bret Williams
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 3:45:18 am

Obviously it was a rash decision by Apple to stop the Avid announcement. But the Avid announcement was a rash decision because of all the talk about the new FCP via Larry Jordan et al. I think the Adobe CS 5.5 was thrown into the mix so they wouldn't be left out and just to have something at NAB of course.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 10:58:38 am

[Bret Williams] "I think the Adobe CS 5.5 was thrown into the mix so they wouldn't be left out and just to have something at NAB of course."

really? Adobe, Avid or anyone else doesn't march to Apple's beat. They have their own business plan and execute against it. Is Apple a big player, sure...but that doesn't mean someone announces a version just to counter Apple. Software development of mature applications is far to complicated for someone just to show something at a moment's notice.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 3:36:00 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Adobe, Avid or anyone else doesn't march to Apple's beat. They have their own business plan and execute against it."

I thought we might hear from you on that one Dennis. Had you not responded I was going to suggest to Bret that Adobe had their release of CS5.5 planned for a long time before Apple decided it wanted to fly solo at the SuperMeet. However, I don't think that news was on the radar of most on the FCP Forum. I was kind of shocked that I hadn't really heard about it until the initial press release.

[Dennis Radeke] "Software development of mature applications is far to complicated for someone just to show something at a moment's notice."

Until the SuperMeet that seemed to be the case... Based on any number of factors, including the so-called "sneak peek," I'm not so sure any longer. However, if the objective was simply to get lots of PR of every variety, good, bad, and indifferent, I think you'd have to say the objective was met.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 4:02:39 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I thought we might hear from you on that one Dennis."

Clearly, I am too predictable! ;-)

[David Roth Weiss] "Until the SuperMeet that seemed to be the case..."

I can't speak for everybody, but I've known Apple's been working on FCP X for well over a year. To that end, I'm sure that Apple and Avid heard about our 5.5 release some time ago too.

Now, Adobe has made it easier for Avid/Apple by telling them Adobe will ship a major release every two years (CS6 in 2012) and technology updates on the in between years. Given the rate of technology advances, I think this is a good move that allows users to choose when an updgrade is right for them. I'm hoping to have enough spare time to write a blog article on that very subject and will post here or FCP forum if appropriate.


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Bret Williams
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 7:30:58 pm

I'm sure Adobe had CS5.5 ready and planned for NAB. I just seemed like once Avid had countered the news of the first sneak peak with the cheap upgrade, and then Apple kicked them out of the supermeet that I got my email notice about the pending 5.5 upgrade. Seems like they may have wanted to wait until NAB to put the word out but they had to jump in. Maybe not.

I think Apple would have been happy to let it all go until June when they would know whether it is ready for prime time or not and they could announce full details about the suite. But they decided that a hasty intervention was needed to keep users from focusing on the Avid deal. I personally doubt Steve Jobs gave a rats a-- either way, but probably the new FCP team said they wanted to do something.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 7:42:20 pm

[Bret Williams] "they decided that a hasty intervention was needed to keep users from focusing on the Avid deal."

Personally, I don't think Avid was intending to sell MC to FCP users for $995. I think that came about the day after Apple gave them the boot at the SuperMeet and others announced the rumor that "X" was going to be sneaked.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Greg Andonian
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 9:22:04 pm

I was thinking the same thing- it does seem very busy. I think it would be better if there was a way to make the one you're working with stand out more- maybe have the one that's highlighted be in color and change the others to black and white.

Although, if the project you're working on was shot in black and white, that wouldn't help much...


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walter biscardi
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 21, 2011 at 11:56:20 pm

As with any interface, give yourself a week or two and you'll completely forget you ever worked on anything else.

The interface is the least of my worries. I'm more concerned with locking tracks in place, turning off the magnetic timeline when warranted, Import / Export to / from other apps, other facilities, Edit to Tape / Log and Capture, etc...

If you can't learn a new interface, you're doomed in this industry. All applications re-invent their interfaces from time to time. The only problems come when the app developer doesn't continue to support features needed by many in the industry. Fortunately when that happens, we have other NLE's to choose from.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Andy Mees
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 3:52:51 am

Yes, it's customizable, Bryan. There's a slider down at the bottom of the window that allows you to adjust the filmstrip scale. If you set it to "All" then you effectively get a large icon view ie no filmstrip at all. By the way, as someone who has worked extensively with systems that offer filmstrip views I can tell you they are an extremely intuitive way to work.

Cheers
Andy

VIEW 1



VIEW 2


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Andy Mees
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 22, 2011 at 4:32:05 am

VIEW 3 : List View


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 24, 2011 at 2:59:55 pm

I don't mind the new browser - it seems quite awesome. I just hope you can have that AND a player / canvas or source / monitor on top of that. The best of two worlds, no?

The metadata centric workflow is good but I'm waiting with anticipation how they sort multiple-sequence projects and multiple-projects for that matter. This is something FCP handles very flexible today (given confusing for new users perhaps).

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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Chris Kenny
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 24, 2011 at 3:23:27 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "The metadata centric workflow is good but I'm waiting with anticipation how they sort multiple-sequence projects and multiple-projects for that matter. This is something FCP handles very flexible today (given confusing for new users perhaps)."

Pretty sure I figured that one out.

Basically, no more project files. Sequences are stand-alone documents (but you can open more than one at a time), footage all lives in a single library where it's organized into "events".

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read What is FCP X’s relationship to iMovie? on our blog.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 24, 2011 at 5:36:10 pm

The thing about metadata-based workflows is, your workflow is only as good as your data entry. This is something I will personally have to adapt to, as the nature of most of my work right now only needs minimal metadata along the lines of actor name or script page, and a good/no-good bit. I sometimes will go the extra yard and mark med/CU/wide/reverse, for the more complex jobs I do. There is nobody on location that's free to do nothing but be the script continuity person and metadata entry specialist. I'm too busy shooting or directing to stop everything and type metadata points in.

Here I'll suggest a new plug-in for FCP-x, since it seems to have more audio fixing capabilities already: on ingest, it should listen to the first ten seconds of any take for an audible spoken slate off the shotgun mic channel, use voice recognition to convert that to text and enter it as metadata, looking for the key words "take" plus a number, "Scene" plus a number/letter. I don't have time to write on log sheets while shooting, but I certainly *can* say a phrase at the start of every take. Whaddya think?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 24, 2011 at 6:32:18 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Here I'll suggest a new plug-in for FCP-x, since it seems to have more audio fixing capabilities already: on ingest, it should listen to the first ten seconds of any take for an audible spoken slate off the shotgun mic channel, use voice recognition to convert that to text and enter it as metadata, looking for the key words "take" plus a number, "Scene" plus a number/letter. I don't have time to write on log sheets while shooting, but I certainly *can* say a phrase at the start of every take. Whaddya think?"

This would be great if it could be made to work well, but it would probably be pretty spotty with current speech recognition tech. Also, not much help if you're shooting dual system audio with no scratch track going to camera and the whole reason you want your video to have scene/take metadata is to figure out what audio to match it with.

An easier way to solve this problem, now that cameras are mostly going file-based, is on set. Cameras should provide a way to input this data as you're shooting, the way most digital audio recorders do. Ideally from a wireless remote, so someone in the script department can worry about it, rather than the camera operator having to be concerned.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on Apr 24, 2011 at 6:49:38 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Here I'll suggest a new plug-in for FCP-x...

...it should listen to the first ten seconds of any take for an audible spoken slate off the shotgun mic channel, use voice recognition to convert that to text and enter it as metadata...

Whaddya think?"


The problem is speech to text doesn't work well enough at this point, and your idea really can't be implemented effectively until they do work together a lot more seamlessly than they do now. And when that happens, every word of dialog in the audio files will be searchable as text, making your "slates only" idea unnecessary.

If you read my recent review of AV3's Get, I discuss some of the issues of the old technology of logging and searching (all based upon manually typed text), and the newer technology, which uses speech recognition to index and search words in recorded dialog tracks. They both work pretty well on their own, but both have their own pluses and minuses, but until the accuracy on the speech recognition side makes speech to text seamless, we're never going to have what we really need.

Ultimately, when dialog to text works seamlessly, transcripts and manual indexing via typing will finally be a thing of the past. You only need to mark the clips you want at that point, and then we'll be looking for a ways to mark things automatically. And guess what, the guys at Apple are already paving the way toward that right now...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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David Burch
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on May 27, 2011 at 10:50:35 pm

I don't mind the new window, and in fact am excited by some of the possibilities that the new way of organizing clips means. However, I am a bit worried about multiclip. How will that be handled? If FCPX has done away with that feature altogether, that is a serious deal-breaker for me.


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Andy Mees
Re: Am I the only one who hates this filmstrip view idea?
on May 28, 2011 at 2:42:09 am

However, I am a bit worried about multiclip. How will that be handled?

Chances are that it will be handled better than it currently is.

If FCPX has done away with that feature altogether ...

Any special reason to assume this to be the case?


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