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The Honda Ad Timeline

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Bill Davis
The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:07:44 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:08:12 pm

Just had an on-line chat with the editor of the Honda ad and got permission to post a larger timeline screenshot. I wanted to post it here because over the past few years we've had a lot of questions and discussion in this board about losing the "tracks" paradigm for audio arrangement. So this might make some of the editors who have lingering issues (specifically regarding trackless audio) reconsider whether or not X could be an appropriate choice in complex audio post environs. I mentioned to Mr. Carter that I would be posting it here on the Cow, and he both agreed and wanted a link - which I'll send him. So theres at least a chance he might drop by to answer more detailed questions. No guarantees. I do imagine that this timeline will be making the rounds and will probably surprise a lot of editors who haven't taken a closer look at the current X workflow possibilities.

(Click to enlarge if you want to see it more closely.)



Enjoy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:19:32 pm

[Bill Davis] " So theres at least a chance he might drop by to answer more detailed questions. "

Thanks for the link, Bill. And you are hinting that we should be on our best behavior? ;)


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Shane Ross
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:24:10 pm

Sorry, but that looks like a very messy timeline. I can see audio layered like that, but video? Or is layering video like that the new hip thing to do? Yes, that sounded snarky, and a little snark is in there. But I am curious as to why video stair stepped like that is fine for people.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:36:23 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:48:08 pm

Shane, did you read his workflow post?

He's essentially got to start his cutting on-set the instant the director calls CUT and then is facing ridiculous deadlines, so he developed an almost "all compound clip" X workflow to allow him to get to work fast, using the video assist tap files - then replace them with the ProRes Versions when they come in. Every video clip on that storyline is sorta "live" in that it links to a browser clip that has to be swapped out as the rushes are processed.

So the simple "two track" master to represent the interactive threads, plus lots of audio sweetening seems like a workflow driven by the project's requirements.

Plus the magnetic storyline lets him "bundle" shots from the day and night threads into a magnetically related pair - so when he shifts or trims a scene - the relationship between the day and night tracks are maintained. That seems like it would be a HUGE help on a project like this.

PLUS, since all those bunches of SFX and hits are magnetically connected to the underlying video files on the Primary - shifting a scene in the edit order (including BOTH angles) is just a matter of click dragging a SINGLE clip in the primary - and all the work he's done with attached audio sweetening follows along magnetically in perfect sync.

It's leveraging how X works from the start, to make revising your edits so much easier later.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:37:02 pm

[Shane Ross] "Sorry, but that looks like a very messy timeline. I can see audio layered like that, but video?"

I don't think you're looking at it right, Shane. That IS audio layered on both the top and bottom. There are only two layers of video. The primary (night scene) and the connected day time story below.

The audio above the primary relates to the primary storyline video where the audio below the storyline relates to the connected video clips.

He designed it that way so that he could quickly lasso all the related audio and video tracks and use the enable/disable shortcut (V) to view the other storyline instantly as you might in the finished product.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:46:45 pm

[Andy Neil] "I don't think you're looking at it right, Shane. That IS audio layered on both the top and bottom."

Exactly. And being able to do that is really handy. Makes managing timelines with boatloads of audio very easy and greatly reduces the need to scroll up and down when working.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Mathis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:54:21 am

[Andy Neil] "[Shane Ross] "Sorry, but that looks like a very messy timeline. I can see audio layered like that, but video?"

I don't think you're looking at it right, Shane. That IS audio layered on both the top and bottom. There are only two layers of video. The primary (night scene) and the connected day time story below."


I was confused at first. I was thinking, "Why so many layers of video?" Looked at it again and realized it was audio, first time I seen where audio can be placed anywhere in the timeline.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:50:49 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:51:27 pm

[Shane Ross] "I can see audio layered like that, but video? Or is layering video like that the new hip thing to do? "

Oh, I see now, you thought the upper stuff was video? Nope. Everything green is audio. X doesn't restrict audio to "below the line" like most NLEs.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Shane Ross
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:55:14 pm

Ohhh...Video is just that solid strip in the middle? Got it...that is tidy.

Audio on both sides...upper and lower? Doesn't that get confusing? Or is that secondary or other weird stuff you FCX people do?

:)

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 11:18:18 pm

[Shane Ross] "Doesn't that get confusing?"

Normally, yes, although there are some interesting uses for it. In the case of this edit, the editor was cutting two stories that had to match shot for shot and each had their own sfx and music. By placing one story's audio above the primary and the other below, he was able to essentially have two completed, comparable edits in the same timeline simultaneously without getting confused about which music track or sfx went with which story. Pretty impressive really.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 11:22:45 pm

[Shane Ross] "Audio on both sides...upper and lower? Doesn't that get confusing? Or is that secondary or other weird stuff you FCX people do?"

Shane, you should check out the video (on a desktop, not mobile) here: hondatheotherside.com

And then read the write up on fcp.co

Then it might make more sense.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:29:18 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Thanks for the link, Bill. And you are hinting that we should be on our best behavior? ;)"

Not at all. The dude edits high level stuff for major brands in the back of a van in his socks. I gotta think that the sturm and drang he's witnessed on a set where they're burning tens of thousands of bucks an hour makes any random bitchiness he could possibly encounter here pale in comparison.

Normal participant behavior isn't just OK, it's expected. That's what makes this forum tick!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 9:56:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "a larger timeline screenshot"

... Patiently awaiting the inevitable (and wrong) "sequence pancake" comparison.. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:05:10 pm

Just curious. Is there a way to force an audio connected clip to edit in place above the storyline without a manual move from underneath to above?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:09:44 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Just curious. Is there a way to force an audio connected clip to edit in place above the storyline without a manual move from underneath to above?
"


Not that I'm aware of. That seems to be related to his (and others) request to group Roles. Set a "Role A" area and everything with that role would stick there. I think (hope) we'll see something like that eventually.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:10:32 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:10:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Just curious. Is there a way to force an audio connected clip to edit in place above the storyline without a manual move from underneath to above?"

No, not unless you are replacing a clip that's already above.

And, there's no way to stick audio to anything other than the primary, so no matter what, both sets of audio for both of these stories are "stuck" to whatever is in the primary (which is the night time scene in this case).


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:12:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And, there's no way to stick audio to anything other than the primary, so no matter what, both sets of audio for both of these stories are "stuck" to whatever is in the primary (which is the night time scene in this case)."

Yep. I'd also like to see the ability to connect to secondaries. Based on the patent posted by Alex, it seems that's something we may see as well...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:21:48 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Yep. I'd also like to see the ability to connect to secondaries. Based on the patent posted by Alex, it seems that's something we may see as well...
"


I think that FCPX was very well suited for this Honda project, in more ways than one, and I think the FCPX timeline offers tremendous possibilities. Let's hope that Apple does too. :)


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:23:32 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think the FCPX timeline offers tremendous possibilities. Let's hope that Apple does too. :)"

I'd be very surprised if they didn't. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:32:46 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 3, 2014 at 10:41:31 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'd be very surprised if they didn't. :-)"

Me too. Alex4D does yeoman's work, but I just....I just want to see X come alive!:







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Lance Bachelder
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:23:13 am

Very cool - thanks for posting.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:29:52 am

I'm here I'd anyone wants to ask or snipe away!


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:01:49 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:03:51 am

[Thomas Carter] "I'm here I'd anyone wants to ask or snipe away"

The big question for me would be... where'd you get those socks!? lol

Very nice job man. :-) And kudos as well to whoever wrote that player script thingy!

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:27:17 am

Hey Thomas,

I read your workflow article here.

Great article, BTW. I never thought of using compounds and roles as a way of replacing offline/online clips. Cool idea.

My question is, Where did you get your "Blackmagic AJA recorders"? ;-)

And a slightly more serious question, couldn't you have just recorded the playback as ProRes Proxy and save the step of transcoding in Compressor?

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 10:11:43 am

[Andy Neil] "couldn't you have just recorded the playback as ProRes Proxy and save the step of transcoding in Compressor?"

That would have been nice but the recorders they were using were only able to do HQ. They had some old kit out there!


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:31:06 pm

[Thomas Carter] "[Andy Neil] "couldn't you have just recorded the playback as ProRes Proxy and save the step of transcoding in Compressor?"

That would have been nice but the recorders they were using were only able to do HQ. They had some old kit out there!"


But why go through Compressor at all when FCP X will do it for you while you're working?

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:36:49 am

[Thomas Carter] "I'm here I'd anyone wants to ask or snipe away!"

Nice job! Could you go into some detail about the audio that is mirrored above the storyline for the alternate version of the spot? Did you build this as connected clips - that fell under the timeline - and then manually shift them up? Or did you tackle this in a different fashion?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:38:45 am

[Thomas Carter] "I'm here I'd anyone wants to ask or snipe away!"

People often talk about when FCPX's "Cold Mountain" moment is going to arrive, and for me personally, this is it. I work in short form, and I found the whole entire Honda package, from the production design and value, to post, to the interactive presentation to be a collaborative effort that is very inspiring. From my outside perspective, it feels like this plan really came together on many levels, and I feel that this type of edit, while possible in probably any NLE, really shows how powerful X can be in organization, not only in the Browser, but also in the timeline, and how that organization informs the edit.

Thanks for being open and honest about your workflows and experience and thanks for showing up and asking questions.

I guess the one question I keep coming back to is, why shoot on film? This seems like a perfect digital acquisition candidate. Perhaps that's more of a production question, but did you have any say or influence as to what medium was chosen for acquisition?

Jeremy


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:07:20 am

Digital would have been quicker! But the Director and DOP shoot all their stuff on film and didn't want to compromise for schedule reasons.

So why do they shoot on film? Because they still feel it looks better. And while I would always stump for digital work flows, I'd agree.

The director and do did this music video together just before Honda, it was film too and looks amazing!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 5:03:34 pm

[Thomas Carter] "The director and do did this music video together just before Honda, it was film too and looks amazing!
"


There's no doubt that whatever they are doing, it's working. If film is the chosen medium, then hell yes, keep on going.

I loved the looks in the Honda commercial, and this video is stunning.

Cheers. Thanks for the response and link.

Jeremy


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:32:30 pm

BTW, Tom PM'd me that he's having issues responding here from London.

His first attempt, he got the Moderator Block that many of us have seen when we type something like the word spec ialist - and it gets flagged because the trade name for the ED med is buried inside the word.

And it also seems it's taking hours for posts to reflect to him.

I'll let the group know if the problems persist. Right now it's 5:30am Phoenix time and I'm going back to sleep.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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tony west
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:13:21 am

This is the perfect example of what the freedom of the X timeline buys you.

The concept is out of the box, and the editor thought out of the box to cut the way he did.

Very impressive.

The thing is, Apple said from the very start that their intent was to keep people from having to scroll up and down so much.

Think about it, the only time you need to scroll up and down a lot, is if you have a project with many layers. I f you have a project like that, it's big : )

If you have a simple project, there is not much to scroll.

They were aiming at this type of project from the beginning. At least, it was clear to me that they were.


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Bret Williams
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:35:10 pm

Apple saves vertical space only by incorporating the audio into the clips. But that space saving is short lived past the rough cut for me. Once I'm mixing audio, key framing audio or opacity, doing j or l cuts, or anything else with layers and expanding or compositing its scroll city. Very inefficient use of vertical space at that point. What's with the empty space between audio and video when you expand? Add in the fact that ALL layers have to be increased in size together and its even more inefficient. Other apps like legacy have an area you can lock in place and only scroll the other layers too. Imagine if we could lock the primary in place and only scroll the connected clips!


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tony west
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:06:02 pm

I hear you on some of these points, but looking at the subject of this thread, X allows you to put the audio on top of video making it easier for him to work on the two scenes with less scrolling.

If he had put the audio from the second scene below all the audio from the first scene in another NLE it would put the video and audio from that scene even farther away.

The way he did it they were close enough for him to lasso and v quickly.

He could jump back and fourth between the scenes with less scrolling. But we could ask him directly since he is on here.


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:15:57 am

Maybe I'm missing something crucial, but the idea that this timeline is an advance over fixed tracks for audio seems incomprehensible. I get that audio is above. I get the usefulness of roles. But anyone coming from outside who wants to understand how all the audio elements of that timeline work together would be in for an intense study, vertical moment by vertical moment. The editor himself must have a steel trap for a memory to have an overview of his audio. If I constructed a timeline like that, and came back to it after a week's hiatus, I'd have to look at it for a god-awful while to figure out what I'd done. OTOH If I look at a tracks timeline after a week, I immediately get a quick overview. If I want to tweak something I immediately know where to look. It seems to me that the whole argument that X is a great way to edit complex audio is contradicted by the timeline's visual appearance of disorder. Color coded roles would seem to make things slightly easier but not by much.

So I don't get how this is an advance over fixed track timelines for audio editing.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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tony west
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 4:00:48 am

[David Cherniack] "anyone coming from outside who wants to understand how all the audio elements of that timeline work together"

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see anything in the article about anybody else coming in on the edit. The whole point was that there was no time for anything like that anyway. He was under a tremendous time crunch.

It was about speed and organization as much as anything else.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 4:11:51 am

[tony west] "Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see anything in the article about anybody else coming in on the edit. "

Based on the article and the way the Roles were assigned, I'd be willing to bet that anybody could open up the TL Index for that project and figure what was where in about less than 10 seconds. It's true of my projects, as I'm sure it is of many others. Roles=Tracks in this regard. The fact that everything isn't rigidly aligned bothers people, but it has no effect on "readability" if you know how to read it. Chinese looks like random squiggles to me, but not to someone who can read it. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:48:11 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'd be willing to bet that anybody could open up the TL Index for that project and figure what was where in about less than 10 seconds."

10 seconds? Shirley you exaggerate. Maybe you mean 10 seconds in order to know what's going on at any give moment in time by clicking each vertically aligned clip to find out its role. OTOH the fixed track system allows that to happen at a single glance and also allows 'anyone' to see clearly see what related audio is in play before and after in the same glance. So 10 seconds vs 1 second...wait..my single glances are faster than 1 second...they're faster than a speeding bullet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWubLFVgRc#t=43

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:51:05 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:11:15 pm

[David Cherniack] "by clicking each vertically aligned clip to find out its role."

You have never once actually used FCP X, have you? Nor have you read the article?

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:59:42 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "You have never once actually used FCP X, have you? Nor have you in fact read the article, right?"

And you're rather prone to assuming things so this line won't go any further.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:10:08 pm

So that's a yes. :D

And sorry if that's the only logical conclusion when going by your previous posts. Feel free to set me straight.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:52:34 pm

[David Cherniack] "10 seconds? Shirley you exaggerate. "

OK.. a nanosecond! lol I was referring to using the index to quickly highlight stuff. I'll give you that tracks can make it easier to see the organization of an entire sequence at a glance. I practice, it makes no difference to me though as I'm usually concerned with what's about to move under the playhead. or need to quickly mute/solo a role. Not that there isn't room for improvement, but in actual practice it's really a non-issue. And to mute or solo I don't even need to look at the timeline, so that's faster. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Richard Herd
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 7:07:54 pm

[Charlie Austin] "tracks can make it easier to see the organization of an entire sequence at a glance"

Not exactly, and we are talking about audio. The tracks do not tell us bussing and sending, or other DAW type stuff like compression, EQ, reverb. The track is basically an in and out point.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 8:17:09 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Nov 4, 2014 at 8:18:17 pm

[Richard Herd] "[Charlie Austin] "tracks can make it easier to see the organization of an entire sequence at a glance"

Not exactly, and we are talking about audio. The tracks do not tell us bussing and sending, or other DAW type stuff like compression, EQ, reverb. The track is basically an in and out point."


True. Which is why DAW's exist. :-) Would be nice to see all that quickly in *any* NLE. in any case, tracks in an NLE, to me, are superfluous. They slow things down when cutting. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Richard Herd
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:37:39 pm

[Charlie Austin] "tracks in an NLE, to me, are superfluous."

Yep. And it's very difficult to explain that. It's just something that has to be experienced -- an ostensive concept :)


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 9:47:10 pm

[Richard Herd] "Not exactly, and we are talking about audio. The tracks do not tell us bussing and sending, or other DAW type stuff like compression, EQ, reverb. The track is basically an in and out point."

I'm working in Ppro and I always have the track mixer open next to the timeline. At one glance I see not only the placement of clips within each track, along with the name of the track, but also each tracks bussing assignment, EFX, levels - not sure what you are talking about.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 4:06:09 am

[David Cherniack] " Color coded roles would seem to make things slightly easier but not by much.

So I don't get how this is an advance over fixed track timelines for audio editing."


Agree on the need for some sort of color coding, but it's trivially easy to see what's what in an X TL even if you've never seen it before. If Roles have been properly set, it's one click to see any role or group thereof. If the Roles haven't been set, it's not the softwares fault, any more than if it were an Avid timeline that had clips thrown randomly on every available track.

I come from an audio background and spend an inordinate amount of time editing audio for my spots. Often very complicated/convoluted layers of SFX, assembling dialog from random words and phrases, bending music to my will... lol

I'd rather do it in X than anything else, even, to some extent, a DAW. Especially layering SFX to picture. Seriously.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 4:11:42 am

[Charlie Austin] "I'd rather do it in X than anything else, even, to some extent, a DAW. Especially layering SFX to picture. Seriously."

I believe you Charlie. But my mileage does vary :)

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 4:13:25 am

[David Cherniack] "I believe you Charlie. But my mileage does vary :)
"


:-) Of course. And I do admit it took a while to get used to.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 10:49:46 am

[David Cherniack] "Maybe I'm missing something crucial, but the idea that this timeline is an advance over fixed tracks for audio seems incomprehensible"

The usefulness of 'trackless editing' reaches far beyond the visual metaphor. But quickly to address the visuals, I did this to divide the day and the night of the interactive story. With one quick lasso I could enable, or disable either side of the edit, while I worked on the other.

But the real advantage is that all the SFX (and the daytime shots) are 'connected' to the exact spot they are supposed to be. To swap 2 shots around (or groups of shots) was as quick as dragging them from here to there. In one move, the night shot, corresponding day shot and all the sfx associated with both these clips all went with it.

No need to check and select all the clips I needed. No juggling to free up space on the audio tracks. It's just done.

While you could achieve the end result with a track based NLE, FCPX allows me to do all the boring "admin' stuff more quickly and easily, so I can get on with actual editing. I'm able to see the results quicker and therefor move forward faster too.


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 12:56:00 pm

[Thomas Carter] "While you could achieve the end result with a track based NLE, FCPX allows me to do all the boring "admin' stuff more quickly and easily, so I can get on with actual editing. I'm able to see the results quicker and therefor move forward faster too."

This has been debated here endlessly so I won't go into it. I get there are advantages to the magnetic timeline in some scenarios. I also get that it doesn't suit all editing situations better than anything else. The visual overview of the organization of elements seems to me to be one of them.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:35:17 pm

David,

I truly understand your perspective. You likely have years of experience "seeing" audio in tracks, so it's second nature to you. All the X editors here are trying to tell you is that after a while, what you "see" as a comforting stack of tracks that you can understand at a glance - we now see as a "lit up" grouping of roles grouped clips and understand as surely and as quickly as what you see looking at your tracks.

I hink Charlie nailed it with the comment about Chinese signs.

They make no sense to someone who hasn't learned Chinese - but instant sense to anyone who has.

I'll also note that the "language" of X is nowhere near as complex or foreign sounding as Chinese is to an English speaker. It's really just more akin to the jargon most industries have.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Brett Sherman
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 1:50:58 pm

Also, remember that once you have the edit down, you could compound your audio into groups that would be easy to see - you could even name them things like "CR-V SFX". If you need to tweak later on - just break apart the clips.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:01:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'll also note that the "language" of X is nowhere near as complex or foreign sounding as Chinese is to an English speaker. It's really just more akin to the jargon most industries have."

这是正确的


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:55:38 pm

[Steve Connor] "这是正确的"

Please tell me you haven't just cursed my family for a hundred generations here.

; )

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Steve Connor
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:58:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "Please tell me you haven't just cursed my family for a hundred generations here. "

No, just agreeing with your statement (via Google translate!)


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 5:09:15 pm

Whew, dodged a 子彈 here.

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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:04:49 pm

Hey Bill, I'll take yours and Charlie's points on faith, that it works quickly for you. But I remain doubtful that it truly is as intuitively fast as taking in the audio a fixed track timeline in a single glance. The fact that X's clips are spatially 'non-linear' or 'random' means the brain has to do some work at seeing their organization. OTOH colour-coded roles I can see would help do that.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:48:41 pm

David,

I think the aspect that you are missing is that when an X editor highlights a role in the timeline index (which, granted, as a nonX editor is a concept that won't mean anything to you) all the assets assigned that role literally highlight in the storyline. It presents the editor with an instantaneous way to visually separate the clips in that role.

It's just one of those things like magnetic editing that appears foreign and inefficient from the perspective of the editor with little or no consistent use experience - but that honestly disappears as a factor to the user as they come to understand X.

Then, the once foreign thing starts to make sense. And the next thing you know, you start to see some new possibilities, and suddenly you are solving old workflow problems in new ways and saving little bits of time and effort right and left and editing seems easier and more efficient and, yes, faster in all sorts of ways.

That's the point Mr. Carter reached in about 10 months. The first step, as he describes, is that he had to see the posibilities AND be open to the change. That's the key, always.

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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 2:54:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "I think the aspect that you are missing is that when an X editor highlights a role in the timeline index (which, granted, as a nonX editor is a concept that won't mean anything to you) all the assets assigned that role literally highlight in the storyline. It presents the editor with an instantaneous way to visually separate the clips in that role."

No I'm not missing that aspect at all. You highlight the role. That's a step that a fixed track editor does not have to do to see an overview. She can see it in one glance.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Steve Connor
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:02:45 pm

[David Cherniack] "No I'm not missing that aspect at all. You highlight the role. That's a step that a fixed track editor does not have to do to see an overview. She can see it in one glance."

I agree with David, even though I really like the way audio works in FCPX, fixed tracks give you a more immediate view of where your audio is. Colour coded roles is something that FCPX should have.


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:13:54 pm

'Seeing' the audio is almost the least important of the point here. Splitting them out was a bonus. But I'd love roles based organisation (not even colours) like I described in the article. That could be amazing.

I have no idea how I would have cut the 2 narratives simultaneously without clip connections. Moving shits about would have been too slow and un organised.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:17:32 pm

[Thomas Carter] "Moving shits about would have been too slow and un organised."

That's an audio term I've never heard :)


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 3:31:47 pm

Ha! Sorry. Shots. Moving shots.


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 6:30:22 pm

[David Cherniack] "That's a step that a fixed track editor does not have to do to see an overview. She can see it in one glance."

That's not true. A fixed track NLE editor just has to do it at the front end. In Avid, you have to assign audio to certain tracks manually as you edit and also continue to keep that audio organized throughout the edit process for the "at a glance" notion to work.

In FCPX however, no track assignments are necessary. And with one step, a particular role can be highlighted and understood.

That's not to say roles wouldn't benefit by having color coding or auto aligning, but the visual metaphor isn't a mess as some might think.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 9:52:18 pm

[Andy Neil] "That's not true. A fixed track NLE editor just has to do it at the front end. In Avid, you have to assign audio to certain tracks manually as you edit and also continue to keep that audio organized throughout the edit process for the "at a glance" notion to work.

In FCPX however, no track assignments are necessary. And with one step, a particular role can be highlighted and understood."


Andy, in both kinds of NLEs organization has to be done. Roles or track assignments. Take your pick. I've been talking about something else: the ability to intuitively 'read' the timeline audio at a single glance, once the organization is done. But you of the trackless persuasion ( I mean most everyone here except Steve and Charlie, when he's not in full ministerial jacket or laughing too crazily to think straight :) are a hard lot to get to see things rationally. Highlighting roles may work well but it's a work step.

I think I'll get back to my day job of rustling cattle.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 10:59:29 pm

[David Cherniack] "But you of the trackless persuasion ( I mean most everyone here except Steve and Charlie, when he's not in full ministerial jacket or laughing too crazily to think straight :) are a hard lot to get to see things rationally. Highlighting roles may work well but it's a work step. "

Two tiny notes.

Everyone here who cuts on X almost without exception also spent a LONG time cutting on a traditional NLE. So it might be seen as fair to imagine that we have a pretty solid base from which to compare the approaches.

To go along with that, most of us X editors here appear NOT to be concerned with the stuff that the folks who are viewing it from the outside seem to be obsessing about.

So ether 1) we're not wise enough to understand these problems AFTER experiencing both approaches, 2) these issues actually aren't as important as the outsiders think, or 3) there are problems, but we as X editors have found them far LESS important than the myriad benefits we find in X editing.

It's kinda got to be one of those three doesn't it?

Yet we're still solidly behind the X approach. Go figure.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Cherniack
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:19:49 pm

Right, Bill, I forgot that you are the pinnacle of objectivity about FCPx :)

Move along l'il doggies.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:31:29 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:37:58 pm

[David Cherniack] "Right, Bill, I forgot that you are the pinnacle of objectivity about FCPx :)


But that's about ME. Say something about the CONTENT that I wrote.

If the village idiot says the barn's on fire, it doesn't matter if he's an idiot. If the BARNS ON FIRE.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 12:15:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "So it might be seen as fair to imagine that we have a pretty solid base from which to compare the approaches."

My point exactly. Yes, WE do. But I guess we're also just not one of the blessed ones that get knowledge of everything NLE by mere osmosis. :D

[David Cherniack] "I forgot that you are the pinnacle of objectivity about FCPx"

Wow... the painfully high level of irony when he of all people says that clear escapes him. :D Yeah, silly Bill. He actually uses what he talks about. How dare he or we even argue something we understand. Perfect moment for playing the tired and trollish "fanboy" card, too, yes. The classic escapist tactic, which does little more than expose one's level of ignorance on any given topic and utter lack of any real or relevant arguments otherwise.

Makes you wonder what's so amazingly threatening and scary about FCP X for some. Hmmm...

[Bill Davis] "Say something about the CONTENT that I wrote."

Now now, Bill. Stay reasonable. That would require actually grasping what it is you're talking about to begin with, no? ;D

As far as the (imho ludicrous) "at a glance" thing is concerned, I for one can remember the "good ol' days" very well, thank you. I'd assign A1+2 to dialogue, A3+4 for music, A5+6 to effects etc. like the good little track-based editor I was. Or at least that always was the plan. Then I'd actually start editing. At which point all good intentions of course went completely out the window. Since hey, don't dare have any dialogue, music or effects overlap, because all of a sudden you were at 7+8, 9+10, 11+12 and so on and so on and so on by inserting new tracks below the others, just to stay "organized" and be able to "identify everything at a glance". Yeah... right.

Sometimes the overlap was just for a single, one second track and a few frames, but I still needed an entire program length track for it. Scroll. Have that happen a few times and that's what I call "scroll city". With FCP X A1 & A2 don't even exist to begin with, unless I expand audio components. Space saved already. I can have as much overlap as I want, any "track" can live anywhere and I still have clear and easy differentiation in the end if and when needed. It makes any extra patching nonsense or having to think about it completely extraneous. And yes, with that you work far more fluidly i.e. much faster because you're actually just plain EDITING without having to constantly think about each edit (CMD-Z-ing because you forgot to patch something... again). And of course after a while of playing that track-based-timeline-tango there was no way that I could know for sure what was what "just at a glance" either, not without checking individual tracks. So that "argument" is ludicrous and has nothing to do with reality. Wishful thinking.

I thought the gentleman from Aztec nailed it when he said "Final Cut Pro X is designed for artists, while other editing systems are for operators".

So yes, that whole discussion is completely doltish, no question. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming... :)

- RK


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 5:12:46 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 5, 2014 at 5:18:38 pm

"...makes you wonder what's so amazingly threatening and scary about FCP X for some. Hmmm..."

Actually I do see something very scary coming my way. In the last six months the number of people who have contacted me and been on a one or two day course and told me they have "learnt FCPX" is now running over ten. And these are people who have never actually operated non-linear editing software themselves. Some are seasoned veterans of the industry and some not so. But because they have managed to cut something to music they are telling the world they are FCPX editors.

So we are all afraid of losing our livelihoods and that's a natural enough fear to have. AVID MC is a much less user-friendly intuitive interface and so are FCP legacy and Premiere. For sure those user preferences and scratch disk settings were major head f^@k to many including Avid editors, but they also represented a psychological barrier to entry. Which equals job protection. Having started editing with FCP I still find Avid a bit of a ball breaker. And of course if you've been using it for twenty years you will love it and it does the job perfectly well. In some areas still better than any other system.

But anybody can hack something together in FCPX after not too much time. That's what is brilliant the about the software in many respects it's "approachable". But it is also a massive game changer I think and will continue to be. Could it also put a lot of people out of business? There indeed is the Rub.

Nobody asked Shakespeare, Salman Rushdie or John Grisham (whatever floats your boat) what word processing software or brand of pens they use and this is where we have no arrived in our world now. TV has a legacy where once upon a time just being able to operate an edit suite gave you a gig.

With FCPX within a day you are getting somewhere (I would argue there is actually more to learn down the line) but it opens the doors to everyone. Apple's vision is just that.

I clearly remember the three projects in FCPX I abandoned and cut in Legacy. I was inclined to go with the wave of negative publicity and go to Adobe (easy decision to make). I persevered because I figured the people at Apple might be smarter than me.

A lot of people hoped FCPX would be the end of Apple in the "professional" world of media.

There could be a massive changing of the guard about to take place (I hope that euphemism isn't too British/English as I can't think of another).

People are afraid of losing their livelihoods. Their response should have been to get acquainted with FCPX but I do understand why they are afraid.

So am I.

http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 3:24:58 pm

[James Ewart] "So we are all afraid of losing our livelihoods and that's a natural enough fear to have."

Sorry, but I find that rather ridiculous. If you're "losing your livelihood" to some hack that just graduated from a three day course, then your problem is clearly something completely different than just the NLE you or they are using. If you can't compete with them, then you're simply using them as a scapegoat for being a BAD EDITOR and not staying up to speed on your profession.

But I wouldn't want a client that actually thought they were getting their money's worth by choosing someone like that over me either way. Good riddance. Just don't come crying to me when your project goes tits up, looks horrible or just plain never gets finished. :P

[James Ewart] "they also represented a psychological barrier to entry. Which equals job protection."

Someone actually admits it for a change. :D
Yes, the only thing that kept and still keeps so many people working isn't actual talent and story-telling expertise, it's an "elitist nerd" status. Being the only one in the room that is able to make heads or tails of messy, overloaded, convoluted GUIs. Now that any and everyone with even the most basic comprehension skills can work a pro level (whatever that means) NLE, they're scared senseless that people will now finally find out that all they could in fact ever do was memorize buttons and knew when to push them. (yes, I'm being facetious... but then, not really) And that's one thing I absolutely love about X and see every day when teaching. It democratizes filmmaking. Actually having talent as a filmmaker/story-teller is no longer truncated or stopped in its tracks by the lack of a computer science and broadcast engineering degree just to get a simple idea into a timeline. So yeah... those that have the latter but none of the former need be really scared. And apparently are.

[Andrew Kimery] "many of the FCP Legend users I personally knew did not know any other NLE so they reacted to the EOL by Apple as a direct attack on their ability to make a living"

Which is just painfully nonsensical and self-important, too, yes. Since legacy continues to work TO THIS DAY. Or did it magically remove itself when X came out? Which "ability" did X take away exactly? I'm very curious. And even then, after a mere 6 months X was everything 7 was and more. Just it was different and you don't dare suggest to "pros" that changing a few things and ideas here and there (and having to grasp those differences) could in fact be a good idea. Because they of course know better. They're "pros". Wouldn't actually want to EVOLVE! :D

And sorry, there was no "EOLing" of FCP 7 (unless you consider FCP 1-6 EOLed also). Yet another meme that will never die. It was UPDATED i.e. brought up to speed with today's digital workflow, which meant various changes for the better, yes. An update like any before it, even if it was drastic, but so was the whole switch in the industry from analog to digital and HD. It's still FCP. An update that some went for, other's didn't, just as before. This bizarre notion anyone was somehow forced to make the jump on day one (or even today) is exactly that: bizarre.

Funny how there are even still FCP *6* users making money out there, and not just a few. They saw no sense or gain in updating to 7, and the same applies to X. Good for them. Life goes on. Contructing some silly Wailing Wall around an update like that is just childish. To suggest that nearly FOUR YEARS to decide what's best for you going forward somehow isn't enough is just witless rhetoric IMHO and certainly has nothing to do with Apple or FCP.

I certainly agree with Bill: people seriously need to get over themselves. Going on four years of this nonsense... wow.

[Andrew Kimery] "the chicken/egg part of the equation that's keeping X from gaining ground quickly"

Could it be that you haven't been around much lately? There has never been another NLE that has gained more ground faster than X. Just because it's not happening in your immediate surroundings doesn't actually mean much. It's merely anecdotal and says very little about the industry as a whole, which btw is a completely different one than from just 5-10 years ago. So it's apples and oranges either way. There are also a lot of other cities outside of L.A.. And L.A. is a yardstick for... L.A.… full stop. It only represents an extremely small segment of the industry. One that is completely irrelevant to an easy 95+% of the rest. Cherry-picking the only one relevant to oneself as a measure for an entire industry is a statistically useless logical fallacy.

I for one don't know a single (working) Avid editor. But that doesn't mean they don't exist or that there aren't plenty around.

And, for me, if there's an NLE company with an actual shaky and highly unpredictable future, then it most certainly is Avid. So to raise the rather tired "will Apple blow it up again" FUD question is just polemics. Of all the big A's Avid certainly is the company I would least consider investing even a single cent in at this point, if I had to pick one, if you want to talk "security".

Btw, any proficient and experienced editor will be able to edit on ANY NLE out there and do a good job. At worst needing a few minutes here or there to find the one or other menu item he needs. To suggest that someone is a more decent or even better editor just because he's more familiar with a certain software package or editing paradigm is ludicrous if you ask me.

And there's absolutely nothing "predictable" about any aspect of this industry, be it software or hardware and no matter which OEM you're talking about. To believe anything else would just be rather delusional. There isn't a single company on the market worth mentioning that hasn't killed a product "unexpectedly" at some point or another.

Okay... now my fingers hurt. ;P
- RK


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Scott Witthaus
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 4:20:56 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " If you can't compete with them, then you're simply using them as a scapegoat for being a BAD EDITOR and not staying up to speed on your profession."

This is so correct. I heard this from linear editors when Avid came out and Avid editors when FCP came out. There is a simple answer: just be better. If you are a good editor, no NLE will put you out of business. Personally, I have yet to reduce my rate just because an NLE can be had for only $299. My clients really don't care what I cut on or how much it costs. YMMV.

[Robin S. Kurz] "There are also a lot of other cities outside of L.A.. And L.A. is a yardstick for... L.A.… full stop. It only represents an extremely small segment of the industry. One that is completely irrelevant to an easy 95+% of the rest."

Been saying this for years. Broadcast is a niche when looked in terms of the entire visual storytelling landscape. What the broadcast and film niche needs may not be anywhere near what the rest of the market wants or needs. Avid is smart: they recognized their main market and are pretty much doing everything for them.

[Robin S. Kurz] "Of all the big A's Avid certainly is the company I would least consider investing even a single cent in at this point, if I had to pick one, if you want to talk "security"."

Robin. The trick with Avid is to buy it about a month before NAB and sell it about a week after. You get 15%-20% and get out clean! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 5:53:09 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 6, 2014 at 7:07:38 pm

"So we are all afraid of losing our livelihoods and that's a natural enough fear to have."

"Sorry, but I find that rather ridiculous. If you're "losing your livelihood" to some hack that just graduated from a three day course, then your problem is clearly something completely different than just the NLE you or they are using. If you can't compete with them, then you're simply using them as a scapegoat for being a BAD EDITOR and not staying up to speed on your profession."

I understand why you think that but change is scary for a lot of people. Look at the way nations (yours and mine included) react to large scale immigration - it's the same vibe don't you think? The way the Avid community has consistently rallied against FCP in both iterations has been hard to fathom at times but job protection (albeit misguided) is a reasonable explanation. And the more they can perpetuate the negative publicity the better for them (they think).

I also agree about the democratisation. After all FCP1 at £900 was pretty radical at the time and allowed me, a producer/director, to secretly learn the craft myself - something I had always been itching to do. FCPX at £200 is a similar kind of leap. At that price of course people will look into it and, as I think I put in my previous post, I also like the idea that the tool no longer matters. Never did really much. Nobody (apart from people here of course) ever said "I must go and watch that show I hear it was cut in Adobe/FCPX/AVID/Quantel or a Steenbeck.

Owning a word processing software and a computer does not turn you into a great writer any more than being able to operate edit software makes you a great film maker.

I agree with you but I also understand that when you have been earning a living a certain way, for many years and you are freelance with a mortgage to pay and kids to feed, you can feel a bit threatened by some of these developments. I don't think that's ridiculous but I do think it would be better to embrace the change. But that is human nature.

We must also be careful not to disrespect the many fine editors who have been happily working with Avid for twenty or more years successfully who think "why change?". I kind of get that too. These guys have not been earning a living purely on the strength of knowing which buttons to push.

http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 6:13:32 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 6, 2014 at 6:37:26 pm

Actually £900 is wrong.

Because back them two 27 inch moonitors which were too heavy to carry cost about £1,000 each. The Power Mac (was it an 8100 back then?) must have been £3,000. The external Lacie scsi drives (50GB each?), the deck...the whole shebang set me back about 10 grand. But that was still cheap by comparison.

So there was still quite a barrier to entry compared to now.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 2:13:44 pm

[James Ewart] "Owning a word processing software and a computer does not turn you into a great writer"

No, of course not. But if you're a great and/or talented writer to begin with, then that word processor can offer you options and possibilities to make your work a LOT easier, more flexible and give you more room for experimentation and creativity. Making you at minimum a more efficient if not also a better writer than just with pen and paper, yes. Which is why I don't in fact buy into the whole notion of "the tool (i.e. app) is irrelevant". It sounds so romantic. Too bad it's delusional in today's reality.

If that were even vaguely true, why would we even have computers to start with? Why aren't we all still on Steenbecks or iMovie for that matter? The tool certainly isn't the all-deciding factor, but it most definitely plays a huge part.

[James Ewart] "when you have been earning a living a certain way, for many years and you are freelance with a mortgage to pay and kids to feed, you can feel a bit threatened by some of these developments."

If you are going along with the developments then I have no idea what could be threatening. If someone is just plain unwilling or unable to LEARN, then it doesn't matter which profession they're in in, they'll become irrelevant... and this guy:



It's a choice, nothing else. Every profession has gone through massive changes at one point or another. Name me one that hasn't. People from the printing industry for example can only chuckle at the "problems" that we face. And what if your physician were to say "Leeches and blood letting worked for everything then, it'll work for everything now!"? Is that someone you would go to? Or maybe rather the one that is constantly reading medical journals and going to seminars on new practices, procedures and treatments?

[James Ewart] "But that is human nature."

A gross generalization and cheap cop-out IMHO. It's certainly not my nature. It's a friggen app we're talking about, not some alien invasion. But apparently some prefer to see the two as equal. :D

[James Ewart] "These guys have not been earning a living purely on the strength of knowing which buttons to push."

Of course not. But they also aren't the ones trolling FCP X forums and groups with childish snark, solipsistic arguments and going on about things they don't understand to begin with either. ;) The ones that are, are the only ones "being disrespectful" of others, seemingly trying to remedy a strong inferiority-complex? Giving themselves some macabre sense of supremacy by scoffing at anyone that dare think differently, appreciate something other than what they do, or dare suggest they MAY actually be able to do something better if they simply let off at least some of their old dogmas and habits.

But it's won't be going away any time soon, so... ah well. :)

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 3:19:11 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 7, 2014 at 3:21:00 pm

[James Ewart] "Owning a word processing software and a computer does not turn you into a great writer"

Rpbin Kurz "No, of course not. But if you're a great and/or talented writer to begin with, then that word processor can offer you options and possibilities to make your work a LOT easier, more flexible and give you more room for experimentation and creativity. Making you at minimum a more efficient if not also a better writer than just with pen and paper, yes. Which is why I don't in fact buy into the whole notion of "the tool (i.e. app) is irrelevant". It sounds so romantic. Too bad it's delusional in today's reality. "

I don't think you quite got my point. I was not being literal. I was kind of agreeing with you in fact. That just because the technology is within everybody's grasp that does not take away form the skills of the person writing the script or editing the movie. Now that many people can read and write it doesn't mean many people can "write".

And speaking of reading skills every time you write the word solipsistic I have to look it up.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 3:21:48 pm

[James Ewart] "I was not being literal. I was kind of agreeing with you in fact."

Ah okay... missed that, yes. Maybe it was the "kind of" that threw me. ;)

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 7:00:03 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Or did it magically remove itself when X came out? Which "ability" did X take away exactly? I'm very curious."

Within 6 months of Apple launching X, facilities and shows in LA started ditching FCP Legend for Avid which meant that freelance editors that only knew the old FCP started seeing a ticking clock on the usefulness of their skill set. Not everyone has say over which NLE they get to use on a given project.


[Robin S. Kurz] "Could it be that you haven't been around much lately? There has never been another NLE that has gained more ground faster than X. "

Could it be that your reading comprehension needs improvement? You snipped off/ignored the rest of my comment where I specifically talk about large markets and large facilities (not to mention my other posts in the conversation Charlie and I were having).


[Robin S. Kurz] "And sorry, there was no "EOLing" of FCP 7 (unless you consider FCP 1-6 EOLed also)."

Yes, FCP 1-6 were EOLed too. End Of Life means the product is no longer sold, supported and/or maintained by its manufacturer. Pretty much every company EOLs the old product once the new one comes out.


[Robin S. Kurz] "To suggest that nearly FOUR YEARS to decide what's best for you going forward somehow isn't enough is just witless rhetoric IMHO and certainly has nothing to do with Apple or FCP."

Who suggested that? I'm talking about people's reaction to Apple shortly after X was released and how that helped influence their decision to go with PPro or Avid instead of X.


[Robin S. Kurz] " Cherry-picking the only one relevant to oneself as a measure for an entire industry is a statistically useless logical fallacy."

Not cherry picking or extrapolating anything, just telling a personal anecdote. Which is why I made sure to use the word "personally" in my post (and "in my neck of the woods" in another post) so people wouldn't think I was making a blanket statement. The regulars in this forum have gotten to a point where we don't have to go to great lengths to qualify every post because we pretty much know where one another is coming from. You're the new guy here so I don't fault you for not being able to follow the short hand.

I have an idea of where people like Bill, Herb, Tony, Walter, etc., are coming from and they have an idea of where I'm coming from so by sharing our individual stories and observations we get insight and exposure to segments of the industry we wouldn't normally have contact with. It's not about painting with broad strokes but pointing out a specific tile in the large, and varied, mosaic that is our industry. Ultimately though everyone is more concerned about what's going on in their neck of the woods. I mean, FCP X helps Bill execute his goals so he is super excited about X but in my neck of the woods knowing X won't help me execute my goals so I have little motivation to learn X until that changes.

For reference, I'm a currently a freelance editor in LA. My genre of choice is documentary/unscripted and I've run the gambit from working on tiny web series to big, multi-editor shows to independent documentaries. I did a lot of assistant editor work and workflow development too so I'm also very interested in the nuts and bolts side of things. When I recount my experiences and give my POV it's in order to give others a window into my segment of the industry, not to project my experience as 'the norm' onto everyone else.


[Robin S. Kurz] ". To suggest that someone is a more decent or even better editor just because he's more familiar with a certain software package or editing paradigm is ludicrous if you ask me."

Who's suggesting that?

[Robin S. Kurz] "And there's absolutely nothing "predictable" about any aspect of this industry, be it software or hardware and no matter which OEM you're talking about."

Agreed, which is one reason I find POV's like Bill 'worrying' that the U.S. isn't adopting X fast enough weird. In 10 years the NLE landscape is going to be different anyway so why all the hand wringing about what people use today when it's most likely going to change tomorrow? In the past 6 months I've had gigs on Avid MC, FCP 7 and PPro and I see this as par for the course for people in my position. The 7 jobs will keep tapering off and eventually X will be more viable in my neck of the woods but I've stopped concerning myself about what may or may not happen with my tools of the trade 5, 10 or 15 years down the road. If something can help me make a living today I'll look into it. If it might help me make a living three years from now I'll check in on it three years from now. ;)

Again, just my POV. I know different people have different needs.

[Robin S. Kurz] "Okay... now my fingers hurt. ;P"

Don't jump to so many conclusions and you won't hurt your fingers excessively typing to argue against points that weren't made. ;)


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Scott Witthaus
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 2:28:11 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Pretty much every company EOLs the old product once the new one comes out."

Except Avid, which for some strange reason keeps supporting software up to two major versions prior to the new release. I know they have to keep the big broadcasters happy, but what a seemingly waste of time and resources to make someone happy with (mostly free) patches and updates who won't upgrade to the new software. I gotta feeling this will change as the new subscription model takes hold.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 3:10:02 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Except Avid, which for some strange reason keeps supporting software up to two major versions prior to the new release. I know they have to keep the big broadcasters happy,"

Completely untrue that this is just for big broadcasters. This is a tremendous benefit to all users. Having to chase versions in Apple and Adobe software is a huge PITA if you have to exchange project files with other people in the chain.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 7:45:51 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Completely untrue that this is just for big broadcasters."

Sorry Oliver, but not "completely..." Every time I talk about this to users or to Avid folk, it's the big installs that don't want to change and want the (free) updates and patches to old versions. I include "big broadcast" in "big installs". And Avid is most concerned about the big installs. Based on feedback, I would dare say Avid would love to not service out of date versions. But, big money talks...

If you have a version that works with your situation, you stay there until you are ready or have to upgrade. I personally don't want Avid to be using valuable and scarce development resources on old versions. Once a new version comes out, the old version should be frozen.

The again, I voluntarily "froze" my Media Composer version at 7.0.4 via not doing the subscription update....and so it goes.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 7, 2014 at 9:34:41 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[Oliver Peters] "Completely untrue that this is just for big broadcasters."
Sorry Oliver, but not "completely..." Every time I talk about this to users or to Avid folk, it's the big installs that don't want to change "


I think you missed the point. I said it was completely untrue that it was JUST for big broadcasters. They do certainly benefit from it, though.

[Scott Witthaus] "The again, I voluntarily "froze" my Media Composer version at 7.0.4 via not doing the subscription update....and so it goes."

This validates my point. If Avid released a hypothetical 7.0.4.1 update in order to be backwards compatible with some feature in 8.x, then you have benefited from that. This means a customer can hand you a project file from the higher version and you can still work with it. You only have to update to the patched version, which didn't cost you anything. It benefits YOU more than it does Avid, however, the software is coded in a modular fashion, which probably makes this less of an R&D issue than you think.

When 4K is released, HD projects will likely still be backwards compatible. That's a good thing for small users and three-letter networks alike.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 8, 2014 at 11:35:53 am

[Oliver Peters] "This validates my point. If Avid released a hypothetical 7.0.4.1 update in order to be backwards compatible with some feature in 8.x, then you have benefited from that."

No, what I am saying is that I want that R&D effort put towards 8.x and beyond, not backwards. Ultimately 8.x will benefit me and my purchase of 8.x will benefit Avid more. Avid's (limited) backwards compatibility is nice, but when the company is updating software that is two versions back, it's lacks good business sense.

Quite frankly, those type customers (holding old versions but wanting continuing (free) updates to those old versions) need to be forced to "pony-up" at some point or be left behind. Oh wait, that is what the subscription model will do! And I bet we will see subtle but definite changes to that "backward compatible" model from Avid going forward.

My main reason for "freezing" my Avid version is that there is no Avid work to be found in my region. There are no Avid suites to four-wall. Of course, we're no LA....! As one contributor on the Avid-L called us; "the little guys"! :-)

sw

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 8, 2014 at 3:00:39 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "No, what I am saying is that I want that R&D effort put towards 8.x and beyond, not backwards. "

Actually I don't believe it's as big of a drain as you think, because of the modular nature of the code. The real hold-back is just how much can you change the features and UI without alienating the customers.

[Scott Witthaus] "Quite frankly, those type customers (holding old versions but wanting continuing (free) updates to those old versions) need to be forced to "pony-up" at some point or be left behind."

That's exactly what the new pricing models do; however, more so in the case of Avid than other NLEs, you have a lot of customers in mid-production who won't upgrade. The other issue is hardware. As they move forward, Avid hardware like Mojo DX and Nitris DX will be obsolete. Customers who bought that will still want to get mileage out of it while they can.

[Scott Witthaus] "My main reason for "freezing" my Avid version is that there is no Avid work to be found in my region. There are no Avid suites to four-wall."

Sure. That's a logical business decision.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:17:13 pm

[David Cherniack] "Andy, in both kinds of NLEs organization has to be done. Roles or track assignments. Take your pick. I've been talking about something else: the ability to intuitively 'read' the timeline audio at a single glance, once the organization is done."

The problem is, David, you're equating two things that aren't even remotely equal. In many cases, Roles can be assigned automatically upon import into FCPX (at least into it's default roles). You can't import a clip into an Avid which will always drop onto A10.

In FCPX, I can select a number of clips all at once and change their role at the same time. You can't make all your sfx clips always fall to A5 no matter where the track assignments are. The kind of organization that you do in FCPX to keep your audio straight isn't close to the amount of time you have to spend at each stage of the edit doing the same thing for a track-based editor. In overall seconds, minutes, hours, and button presses, you are spending a TON more time in Avid keeping an "at a glance" timeline than you do to create and view an "at a glance" timeline in X.

You are suggesting that there is "extra" work involved for FCPX editors in order to view and understand their timeline because they have to highlight the role in the index for certain types of clips to be easily seen and their purpose understood. But you completely ignore all the "extra" work you do as a track based editor to get to that point. Way more than an X editor has to do.

And for your information, I'm not of a "trackless persuasion" as you put it. I'm working on an Avid right now and I'm happy to do all the organization work I do to keep my edit and timeline clean. But FCPX isn't some wild, indecipherable mess of a program simply because it doesn't have tracks. I'm just trying to clear up misinformation about how X works. It's not more work to keep an X timeline organized for quick understanding, it's much, much faster.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:20:19 pm

[Andy Neil] "I'm not of a "trackless persuasion" as you put it. I'm working on an Avid right now and I'm happy to do all the organization work I do to keep my edit and timeline clean. But FCPX isn't some wild, indecipherable mess of a program simply because it doesn't have tracks. I'm just trying to clear up misinformation about how X works. It's not more work to keep an X timeline organized for quick understanding, it's much, much faster.
"


Exactly. I'm cutting away in PrCC as we speak. Nothing wrong with it, but using tracks when cutting is not faster. At all.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Neil Goodman
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 4:02:24 am

[Andy Neil] "n overall seconds, minutes, hours, and button presses, you are spending a TON more time in Avid keeping an "at a glance" timeline than you do to create and view an "at a glance" timeline in X.
"


how long does it take to patch an audio track in Avid? If your smart, there mapped to a keyboard. In my case if it want to insert/overwrite to A10 i hit shift 0, and then b or v.

Its a fraction of a second operation thats hard wired in my brain and that hardly leads to a ton of added time.

That said, it doesnt take time in X either assigning the roles. Literally the same.

If your adding tons of time to an edit for track patching/ role-ing then the software isnt the issue at hand.

either way, this is a really great spot, I couldnt care less what it was cut in.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 4:18:33 am

[Neil Goodman] "Its a fraction of a second operation thats hard wired in my brain and that hardly leads to a ton of added time."

But you have to do it every time you cut something in! ahahahah!!!! uh, sorry. :-) kidding!

This really is a silly conversation huh? If you're proficient in any NLE, you're gonna be fast. Your preference is your preference. I actually think the people who are most resistant to FCP X are current and former FCP 7 users. It's really odd.

[Neil Goodman] "either way, this is a really great spot, I couldnt care less what it was cut in."

Yep, totally agree. And i want that player script thingy! I can't wait for it to start showing up on Blu-Rays, alternate endings, scenes etc. Maybe even in theaters! What fun it would be to cut 2 alternate but matching features simultaneously! Yikes! ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:25:21 pm

[Charlie Austin] " If you're proficient in any NLE, you're gonna be fast. Your preference is your preference. I actually think the people who are most resistant to FCP X are current and former FCP 7 users. It's really odd."

Agree to the former. As for the latter, human nature being what it is, resentment against the EOLing of Legacy by many of it's practitioners has a long half-life. Not saying it's smart, not saying it's right, just saying it's very human.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:36:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Not saying it's smart, not saying it's right, just saying it's very human."

Absolutely true. At this point though, it seems kind of irrational to me.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:46:51 pm

[Charlie Austin] "At this point though, it seems kind of irrational to me."

If humanity were rational would weekends only last 2 days?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:48:18 pm

[Herb Sevush] "[Charlie Austin] "At this point though, it seems kind of irrational to me."

If humanity were rational would weekends only last 2 days?"


lol, true... :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:53:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As for the latter, human nature being what it is, resentment against the EOLing of Legacy by many of it's practitioners has a long half-life. Not saying it's smart, not saying it's right, just saying it's very human."

I'm going to add to this and say that many of the FCP Legend users I personally knew did not know any other NLE so they reacted to the EOL by Apple as a direct attack on their ability to make a living (many of them were also die hard Apple fans which made the 'betrayal' all that more upsetting). Not logical, but as Herb said, very human.

When Legend got EOL'd I had been using it almost exclusively for 5 years but I knew Avid (and had worked with Premiere a bit in '00/'01) so I at least had another NLE to fall back on as well as the experience of going through the process of learning a new NLE. The FCP-only friends I had were staring 'square one' in the face for the first time as professionals and had no idea how to react. I think them taking it personally could make it less likely for them to pick up X. Or it could just be that Avid (and to a lesser extent PPro) are much more viable alternatives in Los Angeles than X so it's a pragmatic choice, not an emotional one.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:03:44 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I'm going to add to this and say that many of the FCP Legend users I personally knew did not know any other NLE so they reacted to the EOL by Apple as a direct attack on their ability to make a living (many of them were also die hard Apple fans which made the 'betrayal' all that more upsetting)"

That wasn't my case at all. EMC to *edit to FCP (with a quick trial of PPro version 1) - And this after years of both film and linear video editing. My resentment was based on EOL'g a workflow that suited me for a workflow that didn't without nearly enough transition time built in. Anyone who had based his business around Legacy and who found the X paradigm not in-line with their needs was going to be resentful. How pervasive this became was the fault of incredibly bad management and marketing decisions, at least in my opinion.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:16:44 pm

[Herb Sevush] "My resentment was based on EOL'g a workflow that suited me for a workflow that didn't without nearly enough transition time built in."

I get this, but again... FCP 7 did not stop working, and in fact still works just fine in Yosemite. Maybe they could have more clearly communicated the timeline, but they didn't kill the software. There are a legit workflow reasons to stick with one NLE over another. "Apple sux" isn't a good reason though, especially at this point. But it is what it is i guess...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:22:56 pm

[Charlie Austin] " but again... FCP 7 did not stop working, and in fact still works just fine in Yosemite. Maybe they could have more clearly communicated the timeline, but they didn't kill the software."

They killed all communication about the software. Who would have guessed that Legacy would still be running on Yosemite? How do you run a company that doesn't know at what point their software can no longer work on upgraded OS. What if you need to add 10 seats for a new project - do you want to be running a company that bases it's supply channel on Ebay? I worked with Legacy for 3 years after the EOL and I was pissed at Apple every day I turned on the computer. I'm working on Ppro now and no longer care that much at all.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:05:38 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The FCP-only friends I had were staring 'square one' in the face for the first time as professionals and had no idea how to react. I think them taking it personally could make it less likely for them to pick up X. Or it could just be that Avid (and to a lesser extent PPro) are much more viable alternatives in Los Angeles than X so it's a pragmatic choice, not an emotional one."

I think that's true. I also think there is an element of fear, not in the "fear a new paradigm sense", but in the square one sense you mention. FCP X is not hard to learn, but you can't just import a project from 7 and hit the ground running. Thus the lure of Premiere for FCP 7 switchers. At least that's what I observe here in the trenches. If you know 7, you can stumble into Pr, (lazily) use the FCP 7 KB layout, and just keep grinding away.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:21:07 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Thus the lure of Premiere for FCP 7 switchers. At least that's what I observe here in the trenches. If you know 7, you can stumble into Pr, (lazily) use the FCP 7 KB layout, and just keep grinding away."

The lower barrier to entry PPro offers is certainly appealing. Especially for multi-seat facilities. I know of at least two in LA that either recently switched or are planning to switch in coming months from FCP 7 to PPro. The biggest reasons are that PPro can most easily slip into their existing workflows (and these are places that have 2-3 production facilities around the country) and because the stable of freelancers they pull from can very quickly get up and running with PPro.

That's the chicken/egg part of the equation that's keeping X from gaining ground quickly in large markets like LA and NY. Facilities/shows aren't going to switch to X until there is a large enough pool of experienced editors that know X and editors aren't going to pickup X if 99% of the jobs are in Avid, FCP 7, or PPro.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:37:44 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " The biggest reasons are that PPro can most easily slip into their existing workflows (and these are places that have 2-3 production facilities around the country) and because the stable of freelancers they pull from can very quickly get up and running with PPro."

I get this. What i don't get is the resistance from 1 man bands and smaller 5-10 editor shops, of which there are many. What you describe is the "nobody uses it, because nobody uses it" syndrome. Pr is a great app, but for promo's/trailers/etc there are huge workflow benefits in X now that are being ignored in favor of the "Pr is just like FCP 7 but kinda better" meme.

Again, I get it. I also think it's really dumb. As soon as someone "big" in LA starts using X (and talking about it) watch how quickly the tide turns. Now, maybe that will never happen, but it would surprise me if it didn't at some point. Whatever... I like it. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 12:37:00 am

[Andrew Kimery] "The lower barrier to entry PPro offers is certainly appealing. Especially for multi-seat facilities. I know of at least two in LA that either recently switched or are planning to switch in coming months from FCP 7 to PPro."

There's another factor and that's Apple's hardware side. Growing with Apple hardware means accepting internal hardware changes in your sop that may or may not fit into the plans of many facilities. The changes with Xserve RAID, Xserve and the Mac Pro have turned off many people. Several customers of mine have or are considering changing to the PC platform, because a new HP or Dell better fits into their shop (replacing Mac Pro towers) than do iMacs or Mac Pro "tubes".

If you're going to make such a change, then, for NLEs, Avid or Adobe or maybe GVG Edius are the front runners. At least the first two are cross-platform, so having editors who know these, makes the change from Mac to PC a far simpler transition than from FCP to FCP X.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 12:57:55 am

[Oliver Peters] "There's another factor and that's Apple's hardware side. Growing with Apple hardware means accepting internal hardware changes in your sop that may or may not fit into the plans of many facilities. The changes with Xserve RAID, Xserve and the Mac Pro have turned off many people. Several customers of mine have or are considering changing to the PC platform, because a new HP or Dell better fits into their shop (replacing Mac Pro towers) than do iMacs or Mac Pro "tubes"."

I hesitate to use this term, but I think that's a crossroad that "legacy" companies will have. Anyone setting up a new shop who wants to use Apple hardware can use an off the shelf RAID/SAN etc. and plug it in with one cable.

And I really think they're doing the right thing with hardware. It's a hell of a lot easier to set up and maintain shared storage/servers than it was even 5 years ago. We had an Xserve/X RAID setup for years. It was expensive. We have the same functionality with a Mac Mini/OS X Server and some pegasus boxes. For about half the price or less. Our Fibrenetix RAID still works just fine too.

I get it, especially for facilities that need "big iron". But the need for that is changing.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 1:17:15 am

[Charlie Austin] "I get it, especially for facilities that need "big iron". But the need for that is changing."

I'm not saying that Apple is necessarily doing the wrong thing, however, Apple's hardware changes come with a considerable amount of unpredictability and general disdain for legacy needs. That doesn't set well with broadcasters and facility owners, so some have opted to go the safer and more predictable route.

The same is true of manufacturers. If you are Avid or Adobe, you get a pretty good hardware roadmap for development out of HP and Dell. Not so much (if any) from Apple.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 1:47:51 am

[Oliver Peters] "The same is true of manufacturers. If you are Avid or Adobe, you get a pretty good hardware roadmap for development out of HP and Dell. Not so much (if any) from Apple."

Agreed, and Apple has clearly ceded the "big Iron" server hardware market to others. But I'm not sure the hardware roadmap, other than connectivity (t-bolt x, USBx, etc) really matters much any more, at least in the market Apple is still playing in. What Apple does give out is a pretty comprehensive OS roadmap. It's not a long roadmap, but long enough so that SW vendors can adapt. Seems like they EOL stuff and it takes about 3 years for it to disappear. Which gives FCP 7 about another year. ;-)


I'm just idly speculating though... I do see your point.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 1:56:29 am

[Charlie Austin] "at least in the market Apple is still playing in. "

I'm not sure that's true. Apple is pretty schizophrenic IMHO. On one hand, they talk about not caring about the enterprise, but on the other hand they are quietly pushing their hardware and FCP X behind the scenes at many large broadcasters all over the world. You can't have it both ways.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 3:03:27 am

[Oliver Peters] "You can't have it both ways.
"


YOU can't, but apparently Apple CAN. :-)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 3:37:24 am

[Oliver Peters] " On one hand, they talk about not caring about the enterprise,"

Where does Apple talk about this specifically?

What defines "enterprise"?


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Oliver Peters
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 1:32:00 pm

"Where does Apple talk about this specifically"

Going back to interviews with Jobs, Apple has repeatedly and publicly expressed the sentiment that dealing with enterprise customers was a PITA and that they preferred the immediacy of dealing with the individual consumer. Besides this, it has been backed up by Apple changes in direct sales practices. When Xsan, Xserve, FC Server, etc. looked strong, Apple had a dedicated staff of sales and support engineers to interface specifically with customers. This was dismantled and the service offloaded to systems integrators. That was a less than adequate solution and from my own personal knowledge, soured many customers on such solutions from Apple.

"Where does Apple talk about this specifically"

In the context of this discussion, I'm referring to broadcast groups, large post facilities, studios, etc.

Admittedly this attitude has shifted (again) under Cook. But only in so much as it involves specific software deals and product features within iPad and iPhone.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:29:07 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Admittedly this attitude has shifted (again) under Cook. But only in so much as it involves specific software deals and product features within iPad and iPhone."

Ok, good. Life under Jobs is one thing, life under Cook will be another.

You don't have to look too much past iOS8 to see it. Of course, Apple's Enterprise will never look like HP's enterprise, but I would not count Apple out of the enterprise market, and perhaps the "enterprise" 100 hour per frame render market as well.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:49:48 pm

Apple are dipping a toe back into the water

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/11/05/applecare-for-enterprise-now-available/

Apple & IBM alliance, that could shake things up a bit in Enterprise


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Andy Neil
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 6:14:48 am

[Neil Goodman] "how long does it take to patch an audio track in Avid? If your smart, there mapped to a keyboard."

[Neil Goodman] "Its a fraction of a second operation thats hard wired in my brain and that hardly leads to a ton of added time.
"


Let's not overstate things. What do you do when the audio track you need to patch is A12, or A15, or A20 on large timelines? You can only have so many shortcuts. And if you have source clips with 4-6 audio tracks but A3 of your source needs to be on A6 in your timeline, it's definitely more than a "fraction of a second" operation, even with auto-patching.

Andy

https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 6:43:51 am

[Andy Neil] "it's definitely more than a "fraction of a second" operation, even with auto-patching."

True. I generally have a minimum of 10 stereo pairs in my cuts, often quite a bit more. You can use targeting shortcuts with tracks to an extent (better in MC than in PR or FC old), but at some point, the clicking and dragging begins. I don't think about that in X. Ever. I do occasionally spend time shift-dragging clips to try to keep everything viewable without scrolling too much. Really easy to do with the X timeline, as you only need to think about where it's going, not how it will fit and what you need to move to fit it. Ya know, Track Tetris. :-)

Yes, it makes the timeline look "messy". Doesn't matter. To me anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 7:21:13 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 5, 2014 at 7:22:58 am

I just find having my audio so very very far away from its related video in geographical terms, exceedingly tedious these days.

I wouldn't say I was especially fast with other concept. Is speed really such a huge issue? Everything needs a tidy up at the end and a once over anyway ust to make sure everything is patched correctly or role correctly assigned no?


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Richard Herd
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:44:45 pm

[David Cherniack] "the ability to intuitively 'read' the timeline audio at a single glance,"

Since a notion of being rational was brought up, what you're saying is a beg the question fallacy. You posit the following: "I can read it because I can read it." ;)


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 4, 2014 at 11:49:40 pm

[Richard Herd] "Since a notion of being rational was brought up, what you're saying is a beg the question fallacy. You posit the following: "I can read it because I can read it." ;)"

heh, that pretty much sums up the argument on both sides of this wildly off topic discussion. The solution is to be multi-lingual. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 1:05:58 am

[Charlie Austin] "heh, that pretty much sums up the argument on both sides of this wildly off topic discussion. The solution is to be multi-lingual. ;-)"

Just for heaven's sake, do NOT make it Chinese.

BTW, Tom just PM'd me that he's back to the grindstone and so won't have time to come out and play for a while. He did note that if somebody here has additional workflow related questions. feel free to send them my way and I'll and I'll gladly pass them along.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

(background music resumes.)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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tony west
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 1:37:36 am

[Charlie Austin] "this wildly off topic discussion"

Indeed

It certainly got sidetrack with IMHO a distraction argument.

The argument obviously had no bearing on this man's ability to rock the heck out of that video.

But I don't think anybody could really make the case that doing that exact video in a track based NLE would be faster and easier.

If that case can be made, go ahead and put the timeline in here like he did his, and we can compare the approaches.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 1:53:53 am
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Nov 5, 2014 at 2:03:07 am

I also think you have to add the compound clip workflow in there as well.

That is pretty unique to X. Other NLEs have nesting type of conventions, but the entire workflow of the compound clips and Roles is rather X specific (and fairly "easy" to do).


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 3:15:56 am

I must be thick. I do not understand the two timelines. What is the purpose of the timeline below? When it plays you see the upper timeline. What is the lower timeline for?


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 3:19:58 am

[James Ewart] "I must be thick. I do not understand the two timelines. What is the purpose of the timeline below? When it plays you see the upper timeline. What is the lower timeline for?

"


Have you watched the spot? Link is somewhere in this silly thread... anyway, there are 2 films,cut simultaneously that play at the same time, one day and happy, one night and dark. In the final product a viewer can then switch between the two while watching. All the shots are "matching, and the same length. If the editor disables the top bits, the bottom plays and vice versa. Read the fop.co writeup for details.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 3:27:04 am

So we are talking split screen?

Okay.

I guess he would have found life simpler still with a second magnetic Primary Storyline unless he cut the fist then lifted it out of the Primary and then cut the other?

it's funny isn't it. Doesn't take much but suddenly from nobody but me using FCPX in the UK and almost having to mutter it under one's breath, suddenly everybody has realised that this is software that works very nicely.

The more I work with complex audio with multiple "tracks" the more I enjoy having my audio ext to my video no matter where it is in the timeline. It's so liberating.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 3:45:22 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Nov 5, 2014 at 6:08:30 pm

[James Ewart] "So we are talking split screen?"

Not at all, you really need to see this, on a desktop, not mobil. Then it'll make sense. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/user/HondaVideo

[James Ewart] "it's funny isn't it. Doesn't take much but suddenly from nobody but me using FCPX in the UK and almost having to mutter it under one's breath, suddenly everybody has realised that this is software that works very nicely."

Not here in L.A., at least in the little trailer cutting world of which I'm a part. It's kind of odd.

[James Ewart] "he more I work with complex audio with multiple "tracks" the more I enjoy having my audio ext to my video no matter where it is in the timeline. It's so liberating.
"


Yep. All NLE's have their strengths, but there's nothing that compares to cutting in X.Once you get used to it it's hard to work in the rigid world of tracks. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 7:17:17 am

Thanks I'll give it a proper read.

For sure the Avid community closed ranks with FCPX over here too but there is a wind of change or at least a gentle breeze that I am beginning to sense.

If only Apple had been more open about X being Beta on its release I think things could have been very different.


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 4:27:55 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Not here in L.A., at least in the little trailer cutting world of which I'm a part. It's kind of pathetic."

This is what actually has me scared a bit. Yes, I'm an X unabashed fan. But what really worries me is that in staying so "conservative" - the US production industry might be screwing itself in the long run.

On other boards I hang in now, the excitement over X and these new editing opportunities are coming from the UK, Europe, Scandanavia, and Asia. (to the extent I can assess Asia, not being able to speak or read the language.) Apple is obviously kicking butt with hardware sales globally, so it only stands to reason that X will migrate along with that.

Yet here in the US, the "hurt" over Apple's behavior nearly 4 years ago is inescapable. EVERY single post I read in any US thread about FCP X this past week - including the ones talking about how much it's improved post 10.1 - has felt compelled to ALSO revisit the "botched launch meme" again, To mention some form of Apple "screwing over" all the planets editors.

But oddly, even tho FCP Legacy was every bit as widely used globally as here in the US , the vast majority of the folks I talk to overseas have long since moved past caring about what happened 4 years ago.They want to know what makes sense for their editing NOW.

Look if X doesn't work for you, it doesn't work. No foul. But if you don't have a clue whether or not it MIGHT work, and you simply won't consider it because you're "mad" at big bad Apple, then that's on you. Just know that there's a competitive editor somewhere in the world who's NOT still carrying that emotional baggage, and they're the ones I interact with daily flooding into the global X boards.

It's part of the reason I wanted to bring Tom's work here in the first place. The global industry is evolving fast. Whether we participate in that evolution or not is up to us.

And let me be clear here, if, as some argue, you can cut the same kind of stuff as well and as fast on Premier, or AVID or Lightworks - EXCELLENT - go forth and do so. Go break some new ground. Push some boundaries. Re-imagine some stuff using your chosen toolset. If you do, I'll be among the first to stand up and applaud. Honestly.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 9:45:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "This is what actually has me scared a bit. Yes, I'm an X unabashed fan. But what really worries me is that in staying so "conservative" - the US production industry might be screwing itself in the long run. "

I don't understand what you are worried about, Bill. Does the country that has the most FCP X users by the end of 2020 win a prize or something?

I can think of a lot of ways the industry in the U.S. is screwing things up (runaway productions, MBAs instead of creatives running studios/networks, poor labor practices, 'Hollywood accounting', poorly thought out reactions to piracy, copy-cat programing decisions, never ending flood of sequels, prequels, remakes and trendy adaptations, etc.,.) but choice of NLE? Really?


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:34:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "Yet here in the US, the "hurt" over Apple's behavior nearly 4 years ago is inescapable. EVERY single post I read in any US thread about FCP X this past week - including the ones talking about how much it's improved post 10.1 - has felt compelled to ALSO revisit the "botched launch meme" again, To mention some form of Apple "screwing over" all the planets editors."

And yet you have insisted that the release was handled perfectly. So how perfect was it being handled when it has caused "irrational" resentment that has dragged on for almost 4 years. Even I think the anti-X phenomena has dragged on too long - yet here it still is. Must be the fault of all them dumb LA/NY editors.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 3:19:43 am

[Herb Sevush] "And yet you have insisted that the release was handled perfectly. So how perfect was it being handled when it has caused "irrational" resentment that has dragged on for almost 4 years. Even I think the anti-X phenomena has dragged on too long - yet here it still is. Must be the fault of all them dumb LA/NY editors."

I get you Herb.

In my wildest WILDEST dreams I simply couldn't forsee professional editors remaining so emotionally wounded for so long.

It's been one of the MOST amazing things I've witnessed in my career.

Oh well.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:15:05 pm

[Bill Davis] " when an X editor highlights a role in the timeline index (which, granted, as a nonX editor is a concept that won't mean anything to you) all the assets assigned that role literally highlight in the storyline. It presents the editor with an instantaneous way to visually separate the clips in that role."

of course if you have 4 different "roles" and you highlight one of them you are still left with a timeline that is 75% unintelligible. And you have to constantly keep hitting that index feature whenever you need a refresher on what is what, audio wise. With tracks you hit nothing and have 100% intelligibility. As has been stated repeatedly, color coded roles would address this issue, but since people have been asking for it to no avail for almost 3 years I don't see why anyone expects to see it anytime soon.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 10:59:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "of course if you have 4 different "roles" and you highlight one of them you are still left with a timeline that is 75% unintelligible. And you have to constantly keep hitting that index feature whenever you need a refresher on what is what, audio wise. With tracks you hit nothing and have 100% intelligibility."

Have to respectfully disagree here. FCP X audio clips are much easier to read than any NLE I've used just on their own. You can also change the clip names to Roles and it's brainless to tell what's what. I'll give you that a 2 hour timeline, zoomed all the way out, would be easier to "read" with tracks than in X. But really, does that matter? I'm only looking at small chunks when cutting and it's easy to se what's what, no Role highlighting is necessary. I don't really even use it. I do use the index to solo Roles and to to make sure I've properly assigned everything before exporting audio. It's not a big deal.

[Herb Sevush] "As has been stated repeatedly, color coded roles would address this issue, but since people have been asking for it to no avail for almost 3 years I don't see why anyone expects to see it anytime soon."

I hope Apple will get to the timeline soon. Seems like they're focussing on one or two panels at a time. The timeline would seem to be all thats left. We'll see I guess...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:13:22 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I'll give you that a 2 hour timeline, zoomed all the way out, would be easier to "read" with tracks than in X. But really, does that matter?"

A half-hour timeline zoomed all the way out is easier to read with tracks than without and that matters to me because that's what I'm working with, day to day. Because it matters to me doesn't mean I am right, it simply means that X is not right for me. I think we have gotten to the point where we can all agree that X is a fully qualified professional editor with unique attributes, whose design suits some editors work habits to a T, and runs totally against the grain for other editors. Visual timeline organization is neither right nor wrong, it does however suit some editors more than others. My guess is that every editor in this forum could cut their next project on either X, Avid, or Ppro with sufficient training. I am also guessing that their reactions to the various NLe's would be as polarized as the US congress.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:23:51 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:38:49 pm

[Herb Sevush] " Because it matters to me doesn't mean I am right, it simply means that X is not right for me."

Yep, I agree.

[Herb Sevush] "My guess is that every editor in this forum could cut their next project on either X, Avid, or Ppro with sufficient training. I am also guessing that their reactions to the various NLe's would be as polarized as the US congress."


I'm already doing that to an extent, sometimes working in 2 or 3 NLE's at once. I guess that's why I have a hard time understanding the "irrational" aspect of resitance to X. I can see what it falls short at, but also what it crushes other NLE's at. And I'm sure someone like you, with different workflow needs might see the complete opposite. But I hear the "It's iMovie Pro and it sucks" resistance (still!) to X from FP 7 users who do exactly what I do, and it really makes no sense to me.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:39:10 pm

[Charlie Austin] "But the "It's iMovie Pro and it sucks" resistance (still!) to X from FP 7 users who do exactly what i do and it really makes no sense to me."


That's the "heard" mentality, and is the result of the way the rollout was handled. It's the same reaction as you get to the Affordable Care Act - it sucks, it doesn't work, it will raise prices - it doesn't matter that this is demonstrably not true - public perception is a hard thing to change (When the legend becomes fact, print the legend) - which is why it's so important to get it right the first time.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:52:29 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Nov 5, 2014 at 11:53:50 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That's the "heard" mentality, and is the result of the way the rollout was handled."

Nah, at this point it's the "herd" mentality, at least here. This still comes from people who absolutely know it isn't true. They're just resistant to learning how to use X. And until a major studio, or vendor, or competitor "validates" it, it'll keep happening. FCP 1 got the same reaction in my niche. But since it had no precedent, the "it's no good" vibe faded faster. It also had the "not too different" thing going for it, which helped. I can tell you from experience that people didn't start switching from Avid until they heard other "peer" companies were doing so. Someone needed to be first.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 12:31:00 am

[Charlie Austin] "And until a major studio, or vendor, or competitor "validates" it, it'll keep happening. FCP 1 got the same reaction in my niche. But since it had no precedent, the "it's no good" vibe faded faster. It also had the "not too different" thing going for it, which helped. I can tell you from experience that people didn't start switching from Avid until they heard other "peer" companies were doing so. Someone needed to be first."

This is par for the course, is it not ("no one ever got fired for buying IBM" mentality)? I mean editors didn't all jump to Avid when it first came out and cinematographers didn't all jump on RED when the RED One came out. It took people like Walter Murch and Steven Soderbergh to legitimizes these new pieces of gear. When Apple launched X not only were they launching a new NLE they were hitting the reset button on the inroads FCP Legend had made.

Personally I'm not that surprised about where X's adaption rate is as its arc is already mirroring Legend's trajectory back in the early 2000's. I think within the next 3 years X will start becoming more viable in major US markets for long form work. You won't be able to get the best paying gigs with it, but you'll consistently be able to get decent paying gigs with it.

There are some big differences though between the path Legend took and the path X is taking. Legend competed mainly against Avid where as X has to contend with Avid, Legend and PPro. Legend also had a much more significant price advantage over Avid back in the day than X does over Avid, Legend and PPro. Also, I think a big question on many minds is, what does Apple do X becomes 10, 11, 12 years old? Will Apple blow it up again? Does the code base have longer legs than the code base for 7?

As always, this is just me speculating about things in my neck of the post production world.


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 12:45:25 am

[Andrew Kimery] " When Apple launched X not only were they launching a new NLE they were hitting the reset button on the inroads FCP Legend had made."

Agree, and I think even Apple would agree the launch of X could have been "tempered' a bit. Like keeping 7 on sale for a while...

[Andrew Kimery] "I think within the next 3 years X will start becoming more viable in major US markets for long form work. You won't be able to get the best paying gigs with it, but you'll consistently be able to get decent paying gigs with it. "

Not sure about the timeline or pay grade, but that seems plausible. It could happen faster if someone "big" is seen as embracing X...

[Andrew Kimery] " what does Apple do X becomes 10, 11, 12 years old? Will Apple blow it up again? Does the code base have longer legs than the code base for 7?"

I'm speculating here as well, but FCP 7 had tons of pre-OS X code in it. It's kind of a miracle it still runs. FCP-X features seem to be being rolled out/updated as the underlying OS does, as a lot of it's functionality is really dependent on OS level code/frameworks. In that sense i think it's more likely that it'll still be viable for a while.

I mean, Apple could decide to just sell phones, but I don't see that happening. Even when I don my tinfoil hat. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 7:48:09 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Nov 6, 2014 at 7:56:25 am

That's the "heard" mentality, and is the result of the way the rollout was handled. It's the same reaction as you get to the Affordable Care Act - it sucks, it doesn't work, it will raise prices - it doesn't matter that this is demonstrably not true - public perception is a hard thing to change (When the legend becomes fact, print the legend) - which is why it's so important to get it right the first time.

For sure here in UK the people who seem to hate FCPX the most (that I have spoken to) are the ones who have not really used it or learnt it. And producers who have formed their opinion from what they have heard editors say (who also have no used it). And yes people are still banging on about "How apple could be so unprofessional..."

In truth if Apple had just said "hey guys don't panic this is under development and Legacy will continue to work fine for 4 years" maybe that would have been better.

Or maybe nobody would have even bothered looking at FCPX and it would not have got off the ground at all.

The best comment I got was from a corporate producer who said to me "... but that's something that FCPX can't do isn't there ... I can't remember what it is though..."


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Charlie Austin
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:22:27 am

[James Ewart] "Or maybe nobody would have even bothered looking at FCPX and it would not have got off the ground at all."

Actually, I think that's probably why they did it the way they did to some extent. Perhaps they went a bit too far by stopping FCS sales right away though. Ah well... hindsight and all that...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 8:39:12 am

One other point about the Honda workflow....

Just thinking whether he might have made use of Auditions and replaced all the shots in the Timeline by changing the selection?

Maybe not as fast for replacing edited sequences I suppose but perhaps simpler?

Or am I missing something?

Why did they have to use Compressor to create the Proxy files rather than letting FCPX do the work?


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34:33 pm

[James Ewart] "Just thinking whether he might have made use of Auditions and replaced all the shots in the Timeline by changing the selection?

Maybe not as fast for replacing edited sequences I suppose but perhaps simpler?

Or am I missing something?"



Hi James,

I think you are missing something. I Can't see how auditions would have helped here. The point of the Compound Clip workflow is that you change the low res to high res at the browser level, and this change ripples through all instances in all sequences, and in the browser.

Auditions are good for switching between different takes/options in the timeline. you have all the high res in, there's no need to ever switch back.


[James Ewart] "Why did they have to use Compressor to create the Proxy files rather than letting FCPX do the work?"

When Final Cut makes it's in-app proxies, they're half the frame size of the originals. So if you're working with HD they become 960x540. With already poor looking playback footage, this was a little too small, it just lost too much res.

I've used it with good quality HD footage before and it looked good, and with 4k it's great!


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Mitch Ives
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 2:10:19 pm

[Thomas Carter] "The usefulness of 'trackless editing' reaches far beyond the visual metaphor. But quickly to address the visuals, I did this to divide the day and the night of the interactive story. With one quick lasso I could enable, or disable either side of the edit, while I worked on the other."

I gathered that and thought it was a rather intuitive approach. Has me re-thinking some things. Great idea...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 4:37:25 pm

... be quite nice to be able to disable an entire video "track" with one keystroke no?


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 5:39:23 pm

Post deleted Simon but assigning it a role is a good thought.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 5, 2014 at 5:42:15 pm

[James Ewart] "Post deleted Simon but assigning it a role is a good thought."

It would have been an ideal way to work here - a lot easier than lassoing and solo-ing, I'd have thought.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Kirk Pitts
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 6, 2014 at 1:59:15 am

I really like FCP7. I only use it as a hobby. But X is quickly winning me over. More quickly once I learn more. YMMV. But what was done here for the Honda Ad was Awesome!


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 12, 2014 at 2:44:38 pm

[Thomas Carter] "quickly to address the visuals, I did this to divide the day and the night of the interactive story. With one quick lasso I could enable, or disable either side of the edit, while I worked on the other."

Was there a reason you decided not to do this with roles/subroles for night and day?

(Thanks for coming back BTW!)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Thomas Carter
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 12, 2014 at 10:59:50 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Was there a reason you decided not to do this with roles/subroles for night and day?"

I did consider this. But there are a few reasons I decided not to.

Firstly, I was using roles to show if my footage was 'film' or 'playback' so I would have lost this functionality. Secondly I wanted my audio to be Effects, Music and Dialogue for when I sent to the sound mix, again, I would have lost this too. Last but not least, I remapped the 'disable/enable' to the R key, so the clients could all play live in the edit. Clicking a role on and off wouldn't have been the same.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 12, 2014 at 11:06:17 pm

Great, thanks for the explanation. Makes perfect sense.

Great job - and I really loved the music video as well. Outstanding stuff!!!!

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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James Ewart
Re: The Honda Ad Timeline
on Nov 15, 2014 at 9:31:48 am

Yes really nicely cut I really enjoy the experience of toggling between the two. Don't even try and explain how it actually works I would never understand. But it's great work all round. Beautifully shot too.

I can see the advantage of using the CCs as you did not have the high rez available.

The fact that one can create auditions in the browser had me thinking though ... I have never had cause to create and Audition in the browser myself and thought for a minute it could have worked if you had both available.

Anybody here use Auditions in the Browser?


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