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james henson
FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 2:37:40 pm

Ok, here is my story...

I basically made a rough documentary on Sony Vegas, but I clearly need professional help to finish the edit.

To my dismay, I could not find any decent/professional documentary editors in London who use Vegas. They were not particularly interested in trying to export across to their platforms either, understandably.

I have decided to take the leap and get a Mac, with the idea that I will reconstruct the docu and import the media into FCPX, as this is what one of the editors who I approached said he used, and for some silly reason I thought FCP was the industry standard. Oh how I was wrong.

Anyway...I would like to know out of the three platforms, FCPX / AVID / adobe, which one would be the easiest to get a professional documentary editor in london to work with. Again, Im not so concerned about the pros and cons, just which one is most prevalent amongst post production houses in london.

Many Thanks!


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 3:36:39 pm

[james henson] ".I would like to know out of the three platforms, FCPX / AVID / adobe, which one would be the easiest to get a professional documentary editor in london to work with."

I would think London would be comparable to NY, and here the answer would be Avid or FCP7. That's Final Cut Pro with a 7 at the end of it, not an X. Not saying these are the best solutions, just the easiest to find editors for.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:12:02 pm

True, but I'd think if one is looking for the ability to update the project easily in the future then I'd shy away from FCP 7 since it's been discontinued for quite some time and there really isn't a clean easy way to port the project to a modern system. And if you already have an edit with mixed codecs and media, that's going to be an additional hassle with FCP 7. Go with Avid, Premiere or FCP X.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:19:25 pm

[Bret Williams] " Go with Avid, Premiere or FCP X."

He's looking for experienced doc editors. He's already stated that he was unable to find those with FCPX experience. My guess is it will be equally hard to find those with Ppro experience. FCP7 is dead, but it's zombie half life seems to be that of Strontium 90 and there are many experienced FCP Legacy Doc editors to choose from. Avid would be the safest bet, but Legacy would meet more of his criteria than either Ppro or X.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:50:47 pm

Agreed. Just thought one should be aware that if you want your Doc to have some sort of longevity, 7 is a dead end. Especially if you do anything more complex than cuts and dissolves. Any titles, color correction, sound, or compositing will be lost. And if you've ever tried to port something from X to 7 with mixed media or frame rates, well, its not ideal. And in NTSC land, since X can't properly deal with 24p in a 1080i sequence there were problems years ago. But if the project is PAL and all ProRes it'll probably convert over to 7 without a hitch.


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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 7:51:57 pm

7 is a dead end? No one cares what you cut on. No one.

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 7:57:33 pm

To expand on the "no one cares what you cut on." If you can deliver the content in the way the people who are paying you specify, they do not give a flying f*** what you cut it on.

Tim


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Gary Huff
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 25, 2014 at 2:22:58 am

[TImothy Auld] " If you can deliver the content in the way the people who are paying you specify, they do not give a flying f*** what you cut it on.
"


If you are trying to deliver a project to an editor to take it and run with it, then yes, in that situation, editors do give a f**k what it was cut on.


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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 5:04:21 pm

The comment was not about editors but those who are taking delivery (and making the rules.)

Tim


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 5:12:01 pm

[TImothy Auld] "The comment was not about editors but those who are taking delivery (and making the rules.)"

In my little corner of the world, project files are considered a deliverable about half of the time, and you must use the client's preferred system for the sake of their workflow.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 5:46:22 pm
Last Edited By TImothy Auld on Oct 27, 2014 at 5:48:23 pm

Absolutely agreed. But the other fifty percent don't care what you cut on if you can satisfy their deliverables. So I guess that makes my "no one cares what you cut on" comment about fifty percent wrong.

Tim


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 8:46:05 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Absolutely agreed. But the other fifty percent don't care what you cut on if you can satisfy their deliverables. So I guess that makes my "no one cares what you cut on" comment about fifty percent wrong."

There are plenty of markets where you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong, too.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 10:20:32 pm
Last Edited By TImothy Auld on Oct 27, 2014 at 10:21:01 pm

Indeed. Took me a long time to come to terms with giving them my project files. That used to be considered (until about a year ago) intellectual property.

Tim


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John Rofrano
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 28, 2014 at 10:44:04 am

[TImothy Auld] "That used to be considered (until about a year ago) intellectual property."
Don't kid yourself... that's still intellectual property and if you are giving away your intellectual property make sure you are being compensated accordingly. If you are just an "editor for hire", you might not even own the intellectual property in the first place but your project file is still intellectual property. The only thing that is different is do you own it, or does the person who hired you own it and that is a "contractual" consideration up front that may change from job to job.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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TImothy Auld
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 28, 2014 at 6:33:45 pm

And that question is usually answered in the contract you sign. Bottom line is in most cases even when I've given up the project file contractually, no one knows what to do with it. And then it comes back to me.

Tim


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John Rofrano
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 29, 2014 at 1:33:00 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Bottom line is in most cases even when I've given up the project file contractually, no one knows what to do with it. And then it comes back to me."
You are lucky then. The alternative is that they get you to do all the hard work and then they have someone internal make all the small tweaks and you never see another penny from them. That's why I say make sure that you are compensated for the project file because you can easily get cut out of future change work.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Christopher Travis
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 4:01:32 pm

Most "post-houses" (i.e. facilities where edit suites and editors are hired out) are Avid. They're also mostly Windows based (in my experience).


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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 4:43:46 pm
Last Edited By Ronny Courtens on Oct 23, 2014 at 4:44:22 pm

You will find plenty of FCP X editors in London, if this really is the intention of your post. Drop an e-mail to nick (at) nickwatson (dot) net. He has edited some great documentaries for the BBC using FCP X. He might help you out himself, or he will definitely know someone who can.

- Ronny


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David Mathis
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 4:39:49 pm

Probably would choose Avid or Premiere Pro, both are cross platform. It looks like FCP X is starting to gain ground in some post houses but Avid seems to be preferred the most, just an observation.


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Shane Ross
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 4:45:10 pm

Can't speak for London...only Los Angeles. Avid is the leader on doc work...followed by the discontinued (3.5 years ago discontinued) FCP 7. FCX is barely noticable...and Adobe Premiere is making some inroads...but it's slow. Avid is the main player.

In Los Angeles...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:22:52 pm

Since you are open to switching to any NLE, why not find an editor you think is a great fit for the project and let them decide which NLE to use?


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 5:29:29 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "why not find an editor you think is a great fit for the project and let them decide which NLE to use?"

My exact thought also. :D

How is it you're looking for AN NLE and not just simply a qualified editor? The choice of NLE will pretty much decide itself, no? Sounds like Ronny gave you a good place to start, too.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Pam Picard
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 7:31:00 pm

I agree with Andrew - I would not pick the editor based on the NLE, but rather the other way around. FCPX, Avid, Adobe - they all can do the job but finding an editor you can work with, communicate with, collaborate with - that is really the most important thing.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 10:42:32 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Since you are open to switching to any NLE, why not find an editor you think is a great fit for the project and let them decide which NLE to use?"

Exactly. And that best editor might not be staff at any post house, rather a freelancer. Don't limit your search.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Andy Field
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 6:44:50 pm

not that difficult to transfer the project to FCP 7 or Premiere pro - read this...also once you get it into FCP or Premiere - there are excellent tools to transfer back and forth to AVID as well (AUTOMATIC DUCK - now free)

http://wolfcrow.com/blog/the-sony-vegas-pro-export-guide-part-two-external-...

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Jari Innanen
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 8:21:49 pm

It is worth mentioning, that Sony Vegas supports fcpxml.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 10:27:33 pm

[Jari Innanen] "It is worth mentioning, that Sony Vegas supports fcpxml."

Interesting isn't it... Vegas, Smoke, Davinci and a bunch of other post support apps read and write fcpxml. Avid and Adobe need to get with it. lol

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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james henson
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 10:53:55 pm

Thank you very much for the considered responses! I really appreciate it!

firstly, Vegas does not export to fcp/fcpx, that is simply incorrect, i have spent too many hrs trying to do so. If you google how to do so, there are perhaps three sites that superficially cover how you do this. Anyway, I would be grateful to be proved wrong if you could provide a link to pages detailing how this is to be done without fcp/fcpx aborting the footage


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 11:15:32 pm

[james henson] "firstly, Vegas does not export to fcp/fcpx, that is simply incorrect, i have spent too many hrs trying to do so. If you google how to do so, there are perhaps three sites that superficially cover how you do this."

Seems fairly straightforward:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/webhelp/vegaspro/12/ENU/Content/Importi...

From the File menu, choose Export, and then choose a project type from the submenu:

Pro Tools AAF File
Media Composer AAF
Premiere/After Effects
Final Cut Pro 7/DaVinci Resolve
Final Cut Pro X
EDL Text File


I guess whether it works is another question... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 12:56:48 am

[Charlie Austin] "Seems fairly straightforward:"

I had issues as well when I tested it for my review:

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/sony-vegas-pro-13/

Go down about 2/3 of the way into the post.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 3:34:24 am

Yeah the feature has been there for quite a while but I could not get it to work in latest version. I used to have no issues sending .aaf's back and forth between Vegas and Premiere/Avid but can't get any of it to work anymore. There's been a new Vegas team in Madison for a few revs now, very nice folks but they just keep making Vegas buggier and buggier. Sad as it was my favorite NLE for over 10 years...

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 10:06:54 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Oct 24, 2014 at 10:39:41 am

[Charlie Austin] "Seems fairly straightforward:"

Very odd that there is not a single mention of any type of XML anywhere on the Vegas page. Seeing Oliver's "success" using it my explain why.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/techspec

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 2:06:13 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Very odd that there is not a single mention of any type of XML anywhere on the Vegas page."

But it is listed here:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/features

I had direct communications with the Sony team. It is supposed to work.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 11:09:18 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Interesting isn't it... Vegas, Smoke, Davinci and a bunch of other post support apps read and write fcpxml. Avid and Adobe need to get with it. lol"

PPro can import and export FCPXMLs (I think that was added 2 or 3 versions ago). Avid, from my limited understanding of programing, is an entirely different beast under the hood though, as previously mentioned, Automatic Duck exists as a possible bridge.

I've only used the Duck once though and it didn't go very smoothly. While reading up on it I learned that the final version of Automatic Duck was released when Avid's AMA functionality was very new so there are a lot of shortcomings of using the Duck with tapeless workflows.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 11:18:13 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "PPro can import and export FCPXMLs (I think that was added 2 or 3 versions ago). Avid, from my limited understanding of programing, is an entirely different beast under the hood though, as previously mentioned, Automatic Duck exists as a possible bridge.

I've only used the Duck once though and it didn't go very smoothly. While reading up on it I learned that the final version of Automatic Duck was released when Avid's AMA functionality was very new so there are a lot of shortcomings of using the Duck with tapeless workflows."


Pr C imports/exports FCP 7 XML, not FCP X xml. And MC imports neither. Auto duck still works OK for picture... You lose a lot of info, but the cuts come over OK. But that requires FCP 7 or Pr, so, like Adobe.. no X to MC straight shot.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 11:23:59 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Pr C imports/exports FCP 7 XML, not FCP X xml."

Ah, thanks for the clarification.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 23, 2014 at 11:32:50 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Charlie Austin] "Pr C imports/exports FCP 7 XML, not FCP X xml."

Ah, thanks for the clarification."


It actually works pretty well in the latest CC versions. It would be nice if Adobe and Avid would read FCPXML, it's a moving target, but the documentation is available. I guess they have no desire to work with the competition in this arena. And Apple probably doesn't care one way or the other... ;-)
Would make my life easier though. X to 7 to whatever or vice versa is like a game of telephone. What you end up with isn't necessarily what you began with...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 5:39:04 am

[Charlie Austin] "Would make my life easier though. X to 7 to whatever or vice versa is like a game of telephone. What you end up with isn't necessarily what you began with..."

What began as a what you necessarily want with, you didn't end up there.

Am I holding this phone correctly?


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 5:52:36 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Charlie Austin] "Would make my life easier though. X to 7 to whatever or vice versa is like a game of telephone. What you end up with isn't necessarily what you began with..."

What began as a what you necessarily want with, you didn't end up there.

Am I holding this phone correctly?
"


I wanted a phone, but I didn't end up with one.

Next! ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jason Porthouse
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 12:47:22 pm

In my experience I'd say 80% + of all post houses in London are Avid based. Many of them have FCP7 as well, being as Avid is now less hardware dependant. Few have X.

I'd start the other way round as many have suggested. Firstly - what's your final deliverable and distribution for this? If it's for broadcast you'll need to do final post at a facility, or with a very well equipped freelancer. If not you can widen your net a little, and may well find a small boutique house or freelancer who has the ability to finish to a high degree on equipment they own.

You'll not go far wrong if you go down the Avid route - that will at least ensure compatibility for most post houses and dubbing suites. X or Premiere should be OK too, with a few more hoops to jump through if you're going down the ProTools route for audio, or grading in a separate suite.

If none of this applies, and your finishing for web distribution or DVD, any of the major NLEs should enable you to do what you need to do. The most important thing is to figure out a workflow that won't back you into a corner, and that requires talking it over with prospective editors or the tech people at your chosen facility to ensure a smooth ride.

If you're looking to hire an editor to work creatively on the narrative (and by that I mean more input than onlining or grading a picture lock) then again, having someone who you creatively bounce off will be important - NLE choice is far down the list, as long as it's one of the 'big three'.

Hope that helps you.

J

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 3:53:58 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Oct 24, 2014 at 4:13:53 pm

[Jason Porthouse] "with a few more hoops to jump through if you're going down the ProTools route for audio, or grading in a separate suite."

Not the least bit more or less than with Avid in either case. One at best.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Bruce Rawlings
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 7:50:01 pm

As mentioned the final deliverable is the key to the correct answer. As a freelance editor I spend much of my time picking up the pieces created by wrong decision making. For some crazy reason people with low budgets spend a great deal of their budget trying to save money! Doesn't leave a lot to do the job properly.


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Dan Stewart
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 1:01:29 pm

I'm a doc editor in London and yes its all Avid though many still have FCP7 at home. If you want to attract someone good then -as has been said- get them in before you start the slog of rebuilding the cut. Get in touch with the agencies (Satusfaction, Independent post, Bluebery, Soho Editors..) and try to attract an editor away from paying broadcast work - and bear in mind they may not watch a feature length film on spec so make sure they see the gold early!
Good Luck
Dan



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tony west
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 24, 2014 at 2:28:30 pm

You got some great advice from folks on here, but after re-reading your post


[james henson] "I have decided to take the leap and get a Mac, with the idea that I will reconstruct the docu and import the media into FCPX, as this is what one of the editors who I approached said he used,"

I just wanted to add this...

X is really user friendly and powerful. You might find that you can cut most of your doc yourself in it and then go to a more experience editor to finish it like you intended. Maybe the person you approached
that told you he used X

You must have thought that person was experienced if you approached them. I wouldn't worry so much about what the standard is if you like that person's work.

Docs can be very costly. I'm during one right now in X
By the time you pay for rights to photos, music and pay a VO person and other cost you are really shelling out some dough. I don't know what your budget is, but unless you are mister money bags you need to save where you can.

You could cut most of it and then have somebody mix the audio and or ad animation that you might not be able to do.


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John Rofrano
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 26, 2014 at 11:50:15 am

[tony west] "X is really user friendly and powerful. You might find that you can cut most of your doc yourself in it and then go to a more experience editor to finish it like you intended"
I have to agree with Tony. I edited with Vegas Pro for over 12 years (since Vegas Video 3) and I picked up FCP X in just a few days. It's very similar to Vegas Pro and more powerful in a lot of ways (the magnetic timeline is pure genius. I will never edit with a track based NLE again). It shouldn't be hard for you to learn it at all.

Having said that, did you think of posting to the Vegas Pro forum here at the COW? My friend Graham Bernard is in London and he's an excellent Vegas Pro editor with the same 12+ years experience as me. He's very active here at the COW on the Vegas Pro forum so you might want to contact him and keep everything in Vegas Pro. ;-) (no sense changing NLE's if you don't have to)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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David Howard
Re: FCP/ Avid/ Premier for doc post producion houses?
on Oct 27, 2014 at 3:08:55 am

I use fcpx and i think that it is amazing and very user friendly. I think you can pick any software you like and put an add online to find a pro editor that uses that software

Redefined Media

Video Production Sydney


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