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Noah Kadner
And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 10, 2014 at 10:43:36 pm

For the few folks who hadn't already put two and two together about this..

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1518-the-first-trailer-for-focus-gets-...

Noah

FCPWORKS - FCPX Workflow
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Bill Davis
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 2:49:20 am

I think there's a reasonable argument that the use of an NLE that largely conforms to the structure of every NLE that's come before it (Premier Pro cutting Gone Girl). Is a significantly different matter than when an NLE that set out to radically change the entire workflow of editing does the same type of thing.

Those voices that clearly said that the X change "ruined" FCP the program for professional editing - have now been ultimately proved to have been totally wrong. Period.

What's still left to debate is whether holding onto an NLE approach that values traditional proven workflows over what many see as workflow innovation (I know, I know, in eye of the beholder, surely) will turn out to be a smarter long term strategy than learning an alternate way that trades familiarity against the potential of greater overall efficiency.

Mike Matzsorff said on the VUG webcast that he honestly felt that using X (on what we now formally know was the Focus edit) let the team spend less time on editing mechanics and more time on the creative aspects of editing.

If that's true, X will earn it's place in the industry.

These are definitely interesting times in professional editing.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 3:26:11 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 11, 2014 at 7:28:41 am

Looking forward to hearing more about this as the cat slowly crawls out of the bag. :-) Ya know what would make me very happy, in a perverse way? If Apple talks about it, sticks it on the FCP page, but doesn't go media blitz crazy with it.

Just like, "Yes.This feature was cut in X. We were pleased to be a part of the film, and here's some information about it. You can hear more about it from the people involved, who had a good experience. It works, and will continue to improve. Also... here's a few more things happening."

Steady as she goes. Kind of what they've been doing actually. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 8:54:23 am

[Charlie Austin] "Just like, "Yes.This feature was cut in X. We were pleased to be a part of the film, and here's some information about it. You can hear more about it from the people involved, who had a good experience. It works, and will continue to improve. Also... here's a few more things happening.""

I believe that's called the "In-Action" page. ;)

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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 4:49:25 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 11, 2014 at 4:49:43 pm

I believe you are correct. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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tony west
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 2:04:22 pm

A couple of things I find interesting about this topic, is that when he started, X didn't even have all the improvements it has now. (Looks like he may have had a lot to do with some of those, which would make sense)

He said he didn't even have the new Mac Pro until the end.

He pulled it off with a much lesser X with less horsepower.

I'm interested to see how this jump starts X

Many of us have said it before, as much as I love working with X, I want Pr and Avid and others out there competing.

It makes them all better, and heck, it's better for the economy to have more jobs than fewer.


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Oliver Peters
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 3:59:33 pm

I think the point that FCP X's use is interesting for the workflow is very valid. However, I think it's wrong to set up Premiere as the choice because it's close to what came before. The reason Premiere Pro made the cut for "Gone Girl" was largely because of its tight After Effects integration, which was used extensively on "GG". Far more that any other film I can recall. So, while the NLE is a more familiar paradigm, the reason it was chosen was also because of a unique workflow.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 7:43:46 pm

[Oliver Peters] "So, while the NLE is a more familiar paradigm, the reason it was chosen was also because of a unique workflow.
"


This is an absolutely fair observation Oliver. As I'm not an AE guy, I often neglect to think in terms of other software like that being a integral part of a particular workflow.

Mike M told me directly that there were something like 170 effect shots in Focus - far more than I would have suspected since it's more a real world, "heist genre-ish comedy drama" as opposed to a space opera or some Michael Bey deal where you expect every other shot to be VFX dependent.

The AE connection you're making makes a whole lot of sense.

I wonder if that means they did more of the effects work in house - or just used AE do do pre-comps then farm the work out as with most films. Much is changing out there. It's kinda fun!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 8:15:10 pm

[Bill Davis] " there were something like 170 effect shots in Focus - far more than I would have suspected since it's more a real world, "heist genre-ish comedy drama" as opposed to a space opera or some Michael Bey deal where you expect every other shot to be VFX dependent. "

I'm still surprised at how many FX shots are in pretty much every studio movie these days. As we cut trailers, we usually get unfinished features. Even a simple romantic comedy these days usually has a bunch of FX shots. Pickups, reshot scenes where they shot a backplate so they wouldn't need to go back to the location, etc.When we get dailies, there's a whole lot of static shot's of interior and exterior locations. Action films... seems like every other shot has some sort of VFX component.

Nothing is real man!!!! lol

-------------------------------------------------------------

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 10:30:31 pm

[Bill Davis] "I wonder if that means they did more of the effects work in house - or just used AE do do pre-comps then farm the work out as with most films. Much is changing out there. It's kinda fun!"

Tyler Nelson, Jeff Baxter and a couple of the post-production engineers talk a bit about that throughout the video below. It sounds like they're doing a lot of what they were doing on The Social Network, but with Premiere as the main edit tool and not just a front end for AE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o6pjd2AU9c#t=39

Shawn



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Oliver Peters
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 11, 2014 at 11:32:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "170 effect shots in Focus - far more than I would have suspected"

That's nothing these days. So many directors add set extensions, use stabilization and use "invisible" split screens for two shots, the 170 sounds quite low to me. Depending on how long or how cutty the film is, that's 10% or less of the shots in the film. In that virtual user group, Mike mentioned having assistants working with Nuke in the next room. I suspect that was a similar workflow to the "GG", just less intense.

[Bill Davis] "I wonder if that means they did more of the effects work in house - or just used AE do do pre-comps then farm the work out as with most films. Much is changing out there. It's kinda fun!"

I just interviewed Baxter and Nelson, plus have followed the various other interviews they've done, in prep for an article for DV. It's my understanding, that between stabilization, shot alterations, TV/computer screen comps and split-screens, nearly every shot was an effects shot. The bulk of this was done in-house using After Effects - first as preview comps with proxy footage and then later at 6K resolution. There were also shots sent to outside facilities such as Digital Domain. For example the underwater shot of Amy.

This is a similar workflow to "Social Network" and "Dragon Tattoo" except much more - and way more tightly integrated than could be done with FCP7 and AE. Basically, the editor could set up a clip or a simple comp in the preview timeline as an AE comp. Then the assistants handle the AE work on the same storage network. When the AE comp is saved, it shows up in the editor's timeline. It seems that the new "render and replace" feature that's in the newest version of CC came out of experiences learned on this film.

FWIW - if you look at old interviews with Angus Wall on editing "Zodiac", he mentions sending clips to Shake from FCP (hint, hint).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 12, 2014 at 4:52:45 am

[Oliver Peters] "[Bill Davis] "170 effect shots in Focus - far more than I would have suspected"

That's nothing these days. So many directors add set extensions, use stabilization and use "invisible" split screens for two shots, the 170 sounds quite low to me. Depending on how long or how cutty the film is, that's 10% or less of the shots in the film. In that virtual user group, Mike mentioned having assistants working with Nuke in the next room. I suspect that was a similar workflow to the "GG", just less intense."


Television is that way, too. You should see a rough cut of Person of Interest; there's a whole lot of green.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 12, 2014 at 4:20:06 pm

[Oliver Peters] "The reason Premiere Pro made the cut for "Gone Girl" was largely because of its tight After Effects integration, which was used extensively on "GG"."

Which I find to be a rather odd reason actually, since I know of extremely few people (including myself) that actually even use "Dynamic Link" all the way to PPro after maybe the first or second try. IOW AE and CINEWARE, sure. But no one in their right mind (or anyone wants to stay it) actually leaves it all "live" in Premiere for speed reasons alone. And if you're rendering out, it's really rather irrelevant which NLE you're using after that.

[Oliver Peters] "the new "render and replace" feature"

THAT on the other hand I hadn't yet heard of, which of course sounds pretty cool if it works as advertised.

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Walter Soyka
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 10:43:21 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Which I find to be a rather odd reason actually, since I know of extremely few people (including myself) that actually even use "Dynamic Link" all the way to PPro after maybe the first or second try. IOW AE and CINEWARE, sure. But no one in their right mind (or anyone wants to stay it) actually leaves it all "live" in Premiere for speed reasons alone. And if you're rendering out, it's really rather irrelevant which NLE you're using after that."

Dynamic Link has great performance when you cache your Ae comps, and even with rendered media, Ae's "Project Link" feature (which stores the path to the AEP that generated a piece of media, allowing you to open the project file from the asset in Pr, and which has been supported for years) is a very nice workflow.

I'm surprised that you are happy with the speed of CINEWARE but not DL. Most video-oriented folks I know are staggered by the render times that ray-tracing requires.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 10:59:07 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Oct 13, 2014 at 11:00:50 am

[Walter Soyka] "I'm surprised that you are happy with the speed of CINEWARE"

I never said or meant that I was. I was merely saying that I can see the advantages and allure of CW more than that of DL. My personal experiences with DL have been anything but "nice". But then I haven't used it in the most recent incarnation, so it may well have gotten to a point where even I would consider it. I'll have to check, should the need actually come up again. But I've opted to do the vast majority of things that I need in terms of motion graphics and general visual effects in Motion in the last years, for speed reasons alone.

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Richard Herd
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 6:46:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "when you cache your Ae comps"

How do you cache the comps?

Here's what I have been doing: mak an AE comp which may have many precomps, and then making a FINAL Comp and then a DL Comp. The DL comp is then render-replaced in AE and that is linked to Premiere. This matters when for example the AE DL Comp is a top-level track containing lower thirds or just the mograph text stuff, and video is underneath (like a title sequence). Once the names are all spelled right, there is no reason to re-render them while doing tweaks to picture. This save some time.

PP CS6 does not have render and replace in PP.

Thanks!
Richard


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Walter Soyka
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 6:56:50 pm

[Richard Herd] "How do you cache the comps? "

With the "Cache work area in background" command:
http://helpx.adobe.com/after-effects/using/memory-storage1.html#id_95051

But the project link feature is quite cool, too. By default, Ae injects some XMP metadata into the rendered output, including what's called a "project link." (This is configurable in your output module.)

That means that you can render a file from Ae, import the render into Premiere, and then right-click the asset at any time in Premiere and choose "Edit original" to re-open the AEP project that created the output. Make a change, then re-render back over the original, and you've got a faux-DL workflow with a manageable intermediate.

(Cache work area in background is new in CS6, but Project Link metadata has been around for ages.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 7:25:15 pm

Thank you!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 10:09:16 am

[Oliver Peters] "The reason Premiere Pro made the cut for "Gone Girl" was largely because of its tight After Effects integration, which was used extensively on "GG". Far more that any other film I can recall. So, while the NLE is a more familiar paradigm, the reason it was chosen was also because of a unique workflow."

While certainly true to a point, I think that this isn't the entire story. For any A+ list director and any academy award winning editor to use any tool, it must be competent in its own right. Premiere Pro meets that criteria as do other NLEs. I am confident that you will see other films that do not utilize After Effects as much as Gone Girl does in the future.


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David Howard
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 4:25:04 am

The link dont work. What is it ??

Redefined Media

Video Production Sydney


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 13, 2014 at 5:19:01 am

[David Howard] "The link dont work."

It will, only fcp.co seems to be down at the moment. Simply wait a bit and try again.

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Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Michael Gissing
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 2:30:36 am

Although the article calls it as a Cold Mountain moment I don't see that is a relevant comparison. Breaking down the edifice of AVID for features was a moment for sure and it changed the NLE landscape profoundly. These days there are many NLEs that can be used to cut a feature film so there isn't a similar ceiling to break through.

Also camera and distribution is digital so using a new NLE to cut a show that remains non destructive of camera original is not so scary. Neg cutting and the cost of prints meant you really wanted to be sure your NLE can be frame accurate, work at true frame rates and produce an EDL.

FCPX might not be a good choice on a pure film shot, telecine, neg cut workflow. But really the world has moved on so far that I am a bit surprised that X or Pr being used on a feature is seen as equally significant to Cold Mountain was for FCP.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 2:10:17 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Although the article calls it as a Cold Mountain moment I don't see that is a relevant comparison."

I'd say you're grossly overthinking the matter. ;) The "Cold Mountain moment", at least as *I* understand it, is merely referring to the moment when FCP (in that case legacy) was "legitimised" as an NLE for editing features. As in long form, massive data etc. Something many questioned was possible then... and now. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that the overall circumstances were in fact completely different, yes. But feature films are nonetheless in a league of their own in terms of the technical, organisational etc. demands. Along the lines of "If your car can go 200mph, whether you actually ever do it yourself or not, you know it can easily go 60mph"... if ya know what I mean. :)

And yes, if things were actually still telecined etc., then X wouldn't be nearly as useful. But then, as you say yourself, that's pretty much irrelevant today. Unless you're Quentin Tarantino. :)

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 3:54:01 pm

So frame accuracy is suddenly irrelevant? No way, especially if you need to take the 100s of hours of footage, and relink to the pertinent 2 hours, and make DI and prints.

Frame accuracy is still important, you just don't need to go hunt frames on a tape and back to film, you have to go look or a frame in the midst of hundreds of thousands of other frames in multiple terabytes of material, both original and working copies. I'd say it's just as important as ever.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 4:22:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "So frame accuracy is suddenly irrelevant?"

Um... when and where exactly did anybody say that? Seeing that it's a direct response to my post, apparently I did?

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 4:43:57 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Also camera and distribution is digital so using a new NLE to cut a show that remains non destructive of camera original is not so scary. Neg cutting and the cost of prints meant you really wanted to be sure your NLE can be frame accurate, work at true frame rates and produce an EDL."

[Robin S. Kurz] "And yes, if things were actually still telecined etc., then X wouldn't be nearly as useful. But then, as you say yourself, that's pretty much irrelevant today. Unless you're Quentin Tarantino. :)
"


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 4:51:49 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 14, 2014 at 5:32:38 pm

[M. Gissing] "Neg cutting and the cost of prints meant you really wanted to be sure your NLE can be frame accurate, work at true frame rates and produce an EDL.""

All of which FCP X can do as well as any other NLE. FWIW...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 4:58:40 pm

[Charlie Austin] "All of which FCP X can do as well as any other NLE. FWIW..."

Just to be clear, that was me quoting Gissing (it looks like you quoted me).

I just think that because everything is digital doesn't mean that it's any easier, it just means that you don't have to write a tape transport protocol.

As a matter of fact, I'd venture to say there's more to keep track of in current workflows than ever.


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 5:33:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "ust to be clear, that was me quoting Gissing (it looks like you quoted me).
"


oops... corrected. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 6:42:38 pm

Sorry, but whether you want to insinuate some imho far fetched relationship or reference between the two claims or not, still doesn't change that that wasn't even close to my actual point. If anything, I was referring to the possibly more laborious OUTPUT (not editing or import) to film due to the lack of the normally needed exchange formats by default within FCP X. So you may want to actually ask what was meant first next time, instead of simply making assumptions. Thanks.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 6:55:55 pm

It's OK, Robin. It's just a discussion. If I'm wrong, tell me where I went wrong. If you recall, I did ask a question to start this discussion: [Jeremy Garchow] "So frame accuracy is suddenly irrelevant?"

Michael's point seems to be that negative cutting/EDL was the only thing that requires frame accuracy in NLEs, you seemed to sort of go along with that notion. I wasn't assuming anything, just inferring what you seemed to agree to.

The truth is, 3 years ago, X wasn't up to the task of making a movie, and now it is. Pr has made similar strides in a relatively short amount of time, and and already had a much more mature feature set than X did 3 years ago.


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Michael Gissing
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 9:11:36 pm

Jeremy it seems that my reference to historical concerns about frame accuracy before neg cutting is meant to insinuate anything about modern NLEs. Because the stakes are higher when neg is cut there was a great concern about using any system other than AVID.

My point was that these days there is not such sensitivity and as all NLEs are frame accurate there is no longer any problem other than nuisance when shoddy work flow means wrong shots get linked when projects are moved from an NLE to Resolve for grading via XML. The fact that a job last week had that issue from Pr was down to file name duplicates caused by poor location work flow not the NLE but the truth is that I itf was a neg cut,the consequences would not be trivial.

Anyway I still stand by the observation that there isn't the level of significance with this feature that there was with Cold Mountain. It is more mole hill than mountain.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 9:48:51 pm

[Michael Gissing] "t is more mole hill than mountain."

And those are dinosaur moles right?

[Michael Gissing] "Jeremy it seems that my reference to historical concerns about frame accuracy before neg cutting is meant to insinuate anything about modern NLEs. Because the stakes are higher when neg is cut there was a great concern about using any system other than AVID. "

[Michael Gissing] "My point was that these days there is not such sensitivity and as all NLEs are frame accurate there is no longer any problem other than nuisance when shoddy work flow means wrong shots get linked when projects are moved from an NLE to Resolve for grading via XML."

I see what you're saying but X was laughed out of "professional workflows"; literally bounced on it's ass while the door blasted it right out to the gutter. It had zero interchange and couldn't handle a feature film.

Now, it's much more mature, has a brand new interchange language that seems to work well enough for the less sensitive digital workflows.

Perhaps, what you are saying, is that this is to be expected, and if so, maybe you are right. It is impressive that in a relatively short time, FCPX was ready enough to handle feature film work when it couldn't when it started, Cold Mountain moments or Kodak moments aside.


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Michael Gissing
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 10:07:43 pm

All I am saying is that the editing landscape is not the same as when FCP broke through with Cold Mountain. Everyone remembers the name of that film because it changed the edit world profoundly. I don't think any NLE can have such an effect anymore.

For an Apple NLE to get back to be used in features is noteworthy and for those that have bled at the edge a toast is justified. But our rapid news cycle and the fact that many NLEs are feature capable means that I bet hardly anyone will remember Focus as a pivotal point in NLE history. Big tick yes, revolution hardly.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 14, 2014 at 10:29:56 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Big tick yes, revolution hardly."

I must be losing something in the translation.

I think what you're saying is that, it wasn't the fact that a movie was edited in an NLE, it was that it was edited on something besides Avid. And the marketing push behind that effort, began to legitimize Final Cut Pro as an NLE that could work at that level, even though there was a lot of "behind the scenes" tinkering to FCP to get it to work at that level.

And now, Final Cut Pro X, the skate punk NLE, after being shunned for a long time, by long time professionals, proves capable of editing a main stream feature, and this news is a footnote.

Perhaps.

I would also think that there's quite a number of film making professionals that would be interested in hearing about how this was done, considering all the FCPX hoopla. And for the younger film makers who have a laptop and a camera and want to make a movie, this may give them a little more imagination. Cold Mountain was billed as using laptops editing dv footage in the actual nearset mountains (not mole hills). This was also a major shift in thinking for what was required to make a movie, or what was possible to do closer to production. You and I might not be interested in Focus being made in X, but I would bet that the buck does not stop there, especially since NONE of this was possible with X when it launched.


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 10:55:50 pm

There is no way that I can fathom that an industry burned by Apple many times over is going to adopt FCPX as a standard. It may be used here and there where it suits purposes. But if this feature is such a game changer for FCPX then where is Apple in all of this? Why isn't it all over their PR?

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:01:34 pm

It must be the "third party" strategy.

Tim


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:15:53 pm

[TImothy Auld] "There is no way that I can fathom that an industry burned by Apple many times over"

Seriously?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:42:30 pm

Yes, seriously. Now what about the rest of the question?

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:54:57 pm

Need I go through the list of software that Apple has purchased and then killed?

Tim


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:58:55 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Need I go through the list of software that Apple has purchased and then killed?"

Nope. Color. Shake. And some hardware. FCS still works just fine, though for how long who knows. By the time it's dead I expect X/Motion/Logic to cover most of, if not all and more, of the functionality that FCS had. Unless you want to burn DVD's, then you're SOL. I wish they hadn't killed iWeb, it was a great program. The code it wrote was a godawful mess though. I don't blame Apple for killing it. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 4:20:18 pm

And MobileMe. I found that really useful, despite the silly name. At least they killed it with some notice, and I'd probably prefer dropbox these days, anyway.


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Oliver Peters
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 4:50:35 pm

[Chris Harlan] "And MobileMe."

And FWIW, iCloud had included betas of Pages/Numbers/Keynote, which could be accessed on-line via a Mac or Windows browser. These have now been changed to only work if you upgrade iDrive, which requires Yosemite or iOS8 or later. Otherwise you are locked out of your on-line documents. Apple giveth and Apple taketh away. ;-)

FWIW - last week I had to media management a film project to send off for grading. It was cut in FCP 7 and that's where I did the clean up. FCP 7's source/record layout, ganging and timecode overlay functions are still vastly superior to how this works in X. The latter may be more fun and faster to cut in, but for absolute, timecode accuracy, it really lacks when compared to FCP 7, PProCC or MC.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 7:20:40 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Oct 18, 2014 at 12:55:40 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Need I go through the list of software that Apple has purchased and then killed?"

Need I go through the list from Adobe and Avid, so as to put yours to shame?

Yes, seriously? Have you still not yet caught that utterly tired memes and logical fallacies such as those disqualify you from any discussion above troll-level?

[TImothy Auld] "wasn't the last iteration on FCPX quite proud about its ability to create Blu-Ray?"

That only painfully underlines your apparent ignorance of any and everything FCP imho.

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 11:07:57 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "Need I go through the list from ADOBE and AVID, so as to put yours to shame?"

While certainly a bit off topic, I'd like to see the list you have with regards to video centric products from Adobe.


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Chris Harlan
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 4:24:50 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Need I go through the list from Adobe and Avid, so as to put yours to shame?"

Yeah, I kinda think you do.


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 4:47:21 pm

[Chris Harlan] "[Robin S. Kurz] "Need I go through the list from Adobe and Avid, so as to put yours to shame?"

Yeah, I kinda think you do.
"


lol. Avid hasn't killed anything in 20 years, some might say *that* is the problem. ;-) Actually, they killed AudioVision which I loved. The move to PT kinda sucked.

And, until fairly recently, I don't think anyone would have noticed if Adobe had killed any of their video apps.
: ducks and runs away :

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 4:58:23 pm

[Charlie Austin] "And, until fairly recently, I don't think anyone would have noticed if Adobe had killed any of their video apps.
: ducks and runs away :"


What, you mean like After Effects? Yes, I think people would have noticed...

Shawn



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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 5:02:13 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What, you mean like After Effects? Yes, I think people would have noticed...
"


OK, I'll give you that one. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 5:03:02 pm

[Charlie Austin] "

[Shawn Miller] "What, you mean like After Effects? Yes, I think people would have noticed...
"

OK, I'll give you that one. ;-)"


:-)



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Dennis Radeke
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 10:19:12 am

[Shawn Miller] "
[Charlie Austin] "And, until fairly recently, I don't think anyone would have noticed if Adobe had killed any of their video apps.
: ducks and runs away :"

What, you mean like After Effects? Yes, I think people would have noticed...

Shawn"


I think Charlie is referring to Premiere Pro's popularity around 5 years ago, to which I would mostly agree. CS5 was the beginning of the change to where Adobe is today.


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 6:52:36 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "
I think Charlie is referring to Premiere Pro's popularity around 5 years ago, to which I would mostly agree. CS5 was the beginning of the change to where Adobe is today."


Yeah, I'd worked that one out. :-) I was just giving Charlie a bit of a hard time because he said "video apps" instead of Premiere Pro, but I knew what he meant. I think there were a LOT of "us" using Premiere in corporate, event and design work long before CS5 though ... so I think it's fair to say that, yes, even if PPro CSx had been EOL'd, a fair number of folks would have been unhappy. Now if Motion disappeared... would the MoGraph community notice?

See what I did there? That's for you, Charlie! :-)

Shawn



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 6:56:47 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Now if Motion disappeared... would the MoGraph community notice? "

I don't know about the mograph community - I doubt that anyone at Apple would even notice ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:08:05 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:11:01 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "Now if Motion disappeared... would the MoGraph community notice? "

I don't know about the mograph community - I doubt that anyone at Apple would even notice ;-)"


lol... I bet they would... That actually brings up something I've been wondering about for a while. Why does this choice exist:



I honestly don't know the answer, but my fevered imagination can think of (hope for) some interesting possibilities.

EDIT: The Yosemite markup extension is pretty cool. I just drew a crappy arrow with the track pad and it became what you see above. Complete with a center point to make a curve. Things are getting interesting in OS X land... :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:18:00 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Shawn Miller] "Now if Motion disappeared... would the MoGraph community notice? "

I don't know about the mograph community - I doubt that anyone at Apple would even notice ;-)"


Ack!! I hope that's not true. I'm not a Motion user, but I'm still rooting for it. :-)

Shawn



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:01:12 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:01:41 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Now if Motion disappeared... would the MoGraph community notice?"

I don't know who the "MoGraph community" for you are, but I'm assuming they're not using Motion as their primary MoGraph app outside of the context of FCP X, no. But the FCP X community sure would notice. As well as FCP itself, since that would bring it's huge ecosystem in terms of plugins, templates and what not else to a near screeching halt. Hardly anything the FCP team (or the users) would want to see happen, but certainly notice, yes.

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Shawn Miller
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:34:38 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "I don't know who the "MoGraph community" for you are,..."

Folks who mostly design and animate graphics for a living. For a lot of them, editing is a secondary task (hence, the popularity of PPro from the very early days). On the high end, many of them don't edit at all.

[Robin S. Kurz] "But the FCP X community sure would notice."

I don't doubt that at all. Mostly, I was giving Charlie a bit of a ribbing. I'm sure Motion is fantastic, and I really wish it were more popular. I dislike seeing an entire industry (more or less) hang it's hat on one application or vendor... I would prefer to see stronger competition from a variety developers in this space. :-)

Shawn



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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 7:38:36 pm

[Shawn Miller] "I don't doubt that at all. Mostly, I was giving Charlie a bit of a ribbing."

Well deserved I might add. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 5:04:25 pm

[Charlie Austin] "lol. Avid hasn't killed anything in 20 years, some might say *that* is the problem. ;-) Actually, they killed AudioVision which I loved. The move to PT kinda sucked. "

Yes, AudioVision was great - I hated the move to PT at first as it felt like a big step backwards at the time.

But for the record, they killed off an equally great app a lot more recently when they canned DS.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 5:13:34 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "But for the record, they killed off an equally great app a lot more recently when they canned DS."

Well, there you go. All video app vendors hate us, kill everything we like, and are evil. So I guess w're stuck with tape to tape. Except they keep discontinuing the tape machines. The only solution is clear tape and razor blades. But there's no more film and they'll probably outlaw the blades soon because they're dangerous.

Editing is a dying craft. :-p

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Walter Soyka
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 5:15:50 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "But for the record, they killed off an equally great app a lot more recently when they canned DS."

Avid EOLed DS recently, but they killed it a long time ago.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 5:06:07 pm

The rhetorical "argument" was "software that was purchased and then killed". I don't see where video relevant software was in any way specified. But then others have already beat me to that list anyway. With Adobe it's also a list of various Flash (nearly as a whole), animation or web related products or even most famously apps such as Freehand? Never mind the killing or Premiere on the Mac as a whole for years after OS X came out. With Avid I can't remember the name of whatever NLE derivative it was (DS, was it?), or the various byproducts, I just remember the (oddly low key) perturbitude when it happened way back when. Add Microsoft and others and you'll have a lot to scroll through.

But in the end it's irrelevant either way, since it's tired, polemic nonsense in any case. Fact is, there is no major or even minor software company worth mentioning that hasn't killed or "consolidated" products. Or 10. I'd say Apple is, if anything, on the lower end of that hit-list. It's just another baseless FUD "argument" for anyone who otherwise has nothing of real substance or relevance to bring to the table imho. Btw, to say that FCP was somehow killed with the EOLing of 7, as some like to lament, is the most ridiculous claim of them all along those same lines.

Funny how you don't hear anyone crying that PPro or Symphony etc. could somehow "easily disappear" in a year or less or that no other users were "burned many times over" considering the actual facts. So much for that "logic".

And Apple never bought just software (Including FCP itself, as we all know), they bought technology and intellectual property i.e. code that was the software. All or much of which has been passed along into existing or subsequent products to the extent deemed useful. Be it e.g. Color tech into FCP or Shake tech into Motion etc.

Or is the next "argument" going to be that they by that same logic killed various operating systems also, seeing that OS 9 and NeXT were "killed" in favour of OS X? Hardly.

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 10:36:03 am

I'll give it a go since Robin passed.

Soundbooth was created because Adobe thought users wanted more tasked based audio solutions. Soundbooth went away because users told us conclusively that they wanted Audition.
OnLocation went away because the industry overwhelmingly went to file-based cameras instead of tape based... Anyone really using a firewire camera much anymore? We created Adobe Prelude to fill that void and I couldn't be happier.
Ultrastudio became the Ultra Keyer effect in Premiere Pro. If you do chroma work and want a good real-time key, give it a go!

All of the above were also 32-bit applications and not 64-bit native.

Encore is still available.

I think that's it unless someone can tell me if I forgot any. All in all, I'm okay with that list, what about you?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 12:03:52 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Ultrastudio became the Ultra Keyer effect in Premiere Pro. If you do chroma work and want a good real-time key, give it a go!"

I'd second that - the Ultra Keyer is outstandingly good, in a field littered with keyers many of which are ... not so good.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 19, 2014 at 4:44:38 pm

I'm fine with that list. Particularly with Audition and Ultra Keyer.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 20, 2014 at 10:39:31 pm
Last Edited By Aindreas Gallagher on Oct 20, 2014 at 10:43:31 pm

David S Kurtz Need I go through the list from Adobe and Avid, so as to put yours to shame?

Yes, seriously? Have you still not yet caught that utterly tired memes and logical fallacies such as those disqualify you from any discussion above troll-level?



I'm not here - and I'm really really not - bar doffing cap to Franz, but this Robin S Kurtz seems quite the excellent firebrand? Just perfectly knowledgable and quite the pugilist. this forum has endless rowdy piper days ahead of it.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 22, 2014 at 5:58:26 pm
Last Edited By TImothy Auld on Oct 22, 2014 at 6:07:31 pm

Sorry, been out of town for a few days but I had to respond to this:

[Robin S. Kurz] "Need I go through the list from Adobe and Avid, so as to put yours to shame?"

I did not have a list so I doubt you could put mine to shame.

And I used FCP 7 for 10 years, I own and use FCPX when it works for me. So the rest of your post is a baseless, personal attack of the sort that any thinking person would be ashamed.

Tim


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 17, 2014 at 11:55:31 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Yes, seriously. Now what about the rest of the question?"

Oh, right...

[TImothy Auld] "But if this feature is such a game changer for FCPX then where is Apple in all of this? Why isn't it all over their PR?"

First, Apple didn't "burn" an industry. Second, the only People calling this a "Game Changer" are people on blogs. I'm sure Apple will put this on their In Action page at some point.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 12:15:00 am

[Charlie Austin] "I'm sure Apple will put this on their In Action page at some point."

I am not as sure as you. But if it does happen, be sure to let me know.

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 12:19:19 am

And, just speaking of DVD's for a moment - wasn't the last iteration on FCPX quite proud about its ability to create Blu-Ray? A format that Apple had all but abjured before that?

Tim


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Charlie Austin
Re: And the first major Hollywood feature to be edited in FCPX and released is...
on Oct 18, 2014 at 12:26:37 am

[TImothy Auld] "And, just speaking of DVD's for a moment - wasn't the last iteration on FCPX quite proud about its ability to create Blu-Ray? A format that Apple had all but abjured before that?
"


I dunno if I'd use "proud". :-) But it's a feature, yes. No DVD's though....

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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