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10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X

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Steve Connor
10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 10:30:07 am







I'm sure David Mathis will agree with number 1


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Marcus Moore
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 12:51:40 pm

it's a good list- mostly nuts and bolts stuff about workflow within existing functionality.

My thoughts on timing and content of next update here-

http://disproportionatepictures.blogspot.ca/2014/09/final-cut-pro-x-whats-n...


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 1:42:59 pm

Yep, agree with all of them. The really painful part? Most of them are things we USED to have!

Oh, but wait, that can't be true because FCP X users universally agree that legacy sucked (sarcasm intentional).

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Rick Lang
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:02:38 pm

Steve, I don't see a list; ! am reading your post on an iPad.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:04:30 pm

[Rick Lang] "Steve, I don't see a list; ! am reading your post on an iPad.
"


It's a link to a video


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Rick Lang
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:21:54 pm

Sorry, I don't see a link on the iPad. I did see your text comment in your posts. I'll see it later on the desktop. No worries.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 5:24:13 pm

[Steve Connor] "
I'm sure David Mathis will agree with number 1"


I agree not just with number 1 but pretty much the entire list. :-)

With that said, FCP X is very capable and no subscription required, that feature I really like!

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Shane Ross
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:42:09 pm

Wow...some of those are so basic, and are not only in other professional NLEs...but were also already doable in FCP 7. So they stepped back on functionality. Guess they didn't realize that professional editors needed those things? Some seem like huge oversights...like audio crossfades and markers. So basic

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:50:20 pm

[Shane Ross] "Wow...some of those are so basic, and are not only in other professional NLEs...but were also already doable in FCP 7. So they stepped back on functionality. Guess they didn't realize that professional editors needed those things? Some seem like huge oversights...like audio crossfades and markers. So basic"

My thoughts exactly. Some of what Steve talked about is available in Resolve 11 as well. I am seriously thinking about doing the edit in Resolve, grading in Resolve but use FCP X along side Motion 5 for finishing. Starting to have a flashback to the very beginning of this forum.

What what was Apple thinking when they pulled out the important tool set that once existed?

editor | camera operator | production assistant


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Scott Shucher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:58:40 pm

I guess I'll just call this post: 10 reasons I am still not using FCPX.


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 9:00:39 pm

Well, those tools weren't in iMovie. And whether they actually ported the code from iMovie or started with the code from iMoive, the blatantly obvious fact was that their first aim was feature parity with iMove for compatibility, and then they began to add back in other standard pro nle features. But, along the way things get sidetracked.

Had Apple actually decided to write a new NLE from scratch, not taking into account compatibility with iMovie, things would've been different for sure.


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Marcus Moore
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 10:30:55 pm

You can't say that with any certainty. Especially since the current iMovie was never even intended to be iMovie at all but "First Cut", a sidecar app for Final Cut Pro. It's entirely possible that everything that they eventually planned to bring to the eventual FCP rewrite would have been in there anyway.


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:50:13 pm

I don't think it matters how the current iMovie came to be or whether they ever intended for it to become FCP X. But when they wrote FCP X, whether they intended for it to be iMove Pro or the new FCP they started with iMovie as a base concept. They claim that they wrote FCP X from scratch, but the idea wasn't from scratch. They may have had to rewrite the code for 64bit or some other computing reason, but since FCP 1 was able to import iMovie projects with full support, it would seem obvious to me that was their starting point. Start with iMovie features, and then add on to that. And since iMovie didn't start with advanced trimming and audio only crossfades and such, then FCP X didn't start with those features and Apple deemed that to make it a more advanced or Pro App, things like Motion integration, key framing, logging, auditions and scopes were the next step to make it a Pro app. The little editing niceties could wait. I don't really see any other way to look at it. It's not exactly controversial. They had iMovie. They wanted to start an new editing app and they used iMovie as the base starting point. That much is pretty clear. My point is that had they not started there, and instead just said lets start a new Pro editing app, ignoring iMovie or FCP 7, then I think most of Steve's points would have made it into the first or early versions.


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tony west
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:10:30 pm

[Bret Williams] "My point is that had they not started there, and instead just said lets start a new Pro editing app, ignoring iMovie"

I wouldn't have ignored iMovie at all. I would want as many of those folks as I could to step up to X after they get tired iMovie and I would get their money with pros.

If you make them too different form each other you defeat the goal of having them step up.

X had plenty of top end tools right out of the box. I won't list them all. They didn't have everything everybody but they keep adding. Remember when people complained they didn't have multi-cam?

Bill is right when it comes to that big corporate attitude. It's all about expanding the base and the money to those folks.

Apple, to me, sits in the best seat to expand.

They made this product powerful enough to do top work yet user friendly enough to expand and combine that with how affordable it is and no subscription.........

As the Late great Jack Buck said "That's a Winner"


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:34:23 pm

[tony west] "Apple, to me, sits in the best seat to expand.

They made this product powerful enough to do top work yet user friendly enough to expand and combine that with how affordable it is and no subscription.........

As the Late great Jack Buck said "That's a Winner""


Agreeing with Tony about all of this.

Long time FCP Legacy advocate and pro Tom Wolsky (who noted in passing something about being "banned" from Cow participation a while back???) said on another board I monitor that he's been doing a lot of FCP X work consulting with large scale news gathering organizations as they are integrating X into their workflows. I'd imagine that a station or newspaper sending a "multimedia journalist" out with a camcorder and iMovie might make HUGE sense, particularly if that comes back to the newsroom and gets "finished" on a more robust FCP X system. And if that journo up-trains to X, they can sit in the hotel and file content directly to the newspaper web presence seamlessly.

That just makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:54:57 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 30, 2014 at 6:56:08 pm

[Shane Ross] "Wow...some of those are so basic, and are not only in other professional NLEs...but were also already doable in FCP 7. So they stepped back on functionality. Guess they didn't realize that professional editors needed those things? Some seem like huge oversights...like audio crossfades and markers. So basic

Shane
Little Frog Post"


Shane,

If you want to take the "glass half empty" traditional approach, then absolutely. All of these are accurate. On the other hand, if you realize that Apple poured a fully functioning database, range based key wording, magnetism for assembly speed, a planetary class multi-cam system, the ability to work in one rez, then swap pointers to other resolutions nearly instantly with a click - and the hundreds of other large and small advancements that Randy U built into X after rethinking things he perviously created for Premier and FCP Legacy before X - then YEP, these things are "missing" in X.

And many of us barely miss them.

If for the rest of time, I got NONE of the things on Steve's list (valid as is surely is) back - I'd still fight tooth and nail anyone who wanted to take away the things that X does do for the speed and efficiency of my daily editing practice.

The "glass" in X might look half full to some. But I kinda see it as a glass that's overflowed five or six times, and the fact that it's not full to the brim right now simply allows Apple to add more juicy goodness from the pitcher later!

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 7:22:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "[Shane Ross] "Wow...some of those are so basic, and are not only in other professional NLEs...but were also already doable in FCP 7. So they stepped back on functionality. Guess they didn't realize that professional editors needed those things? Some seem like huge oversights...like audio crossfades and markers. So basic

Shane
Little Frog Post"

Shane,

If you want to take the "glass half empty" traditional approach, then absolutely. All of these are accurate. On the other hand, if you realize that Apple poured a fully functioning database, range based key wording, magnetism for assembly speed, a planetary class multi-cam system, the ability to work in one rez, then swap pointers to other resolutions nearly instantly with a click - and the hundreds of other large and small advancements that Randy U built into X after rethinking things he perviously created for Premier and FCP Legacy before X - then YEP, these things are "missing" in X.

And many of us barely miss them."


Bill:

I agree with you on most of what you are saying but I respectfully have to disagree with you on a few points. Sometimes it is the small stuff that counts. Having the ability to adjust the opacity or audio level in the timeline is nice and I consider it a time saver. I am also in complete agreement with what Steve Martin says.

I do like FCP X and how much it has developed into something nice. I just don't like seeing some of the basic functionality being done away with.

One area where FCP X has really excelled since 10.1.2 is media management. On the other hand, key framing and trimming is a weak point with FCP X, really want to see that addressed.

One thing that was not in the list, so this will be considered a "bonus", if you will would be a storyboard edit. You could do a quick rough cut by simply arranging the clips in the order you wish and then drag them into the viewer (canvas in prior versions). Why this feature went missing is a mystery to me.

Just sharing my opinions and thoughts.

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Bill Marcellus
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 7:33:30 pm

The interesting thing to me is that FCP X is no longer "new" software- it is three years old. So those that say it just takes a while to add back basic features which were present in FCP 7...really?



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 8:47:23 pm

[David Mathis] "key framing is a weak point with FCP X"

I posted this below in reply to herb about another thing - but feast your eyes and weep your tears on this baby.



also the text tool is insanely over-engineered? there are three kitchen sinks in there - but one interesting side effect is that -
if you've already set keyframes for position drift, you can effectively re-position the entire keyframe animation as a live selectable object from inside the title tool.

super nice thing that. the equivalent of selecting all positional keyframes in AE. (Which you cannot do in ppro, first thing I tried).

basically though (bar roving keyframes), they went with full AE 5.5 style keyframing in that baby - tiny bit savage really...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 8:53:01 pm

Thanks for posting. I have always felt key framing in AE is very nice, like having those jolly expressions, too, but do not feel like "renting" those tools.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 9:05:40 pm

Me neither - but I'm on it for a year. it's incredible how quickly it gums up the works - I cant send ppro stuff to anything but CC AE, and backstepping AE CC 14 projects to AE CS6 is a two step song and dance.

the only thing left right now on the dock is ppro. There are rumours they're going to make a deadly serious argument for CC AE in the near future, but right now I've walled off everything but CC PPro. Which I do quite seriously like tbh.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 9:16:43 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "the only thing left right now on the dock is ppro. There are rumours they're going to make a deadly serious argument for CC AE in the near future, but right now I've walled off everything but CC PPro. Which I do quite seriously like tbh."

I wonder if this is partly a response to Blackmagic Design acquiring Fusion by any chance. I mean, that software just looks powerful and from what I have been told the learning curve is not too steep. Flip side of coin, not something I would use for motion graphics work due to the nature of working with a node based structure.

Having the Dynamic Link feature is of huge benefit and is more powerful then the "Send To Motion" which has vanished into the night. Then, on the other hand, being able to cook from scratch, ready made transitions, generators, effects, and titles in Motion is pretty darned sweet. That is why I really enjoy working with Motion, plus a solid tool for a mere $50, not bad.

I am now eying Resolve as a possible alternative to FCP X as an NLE but there still is room for improvement. After all Rome was not built in a day.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 11:02:25 pm

I think the average editor would instinctively barf at the sight of fusion. It's a bit of an unskinned pitbull really. not quite nuke horrors but still..

[David Mathis] "I wonder if this is partly a response to Blackmagic Design acquiring Fusion by any chance"

i think the adobe team we know are honest in their endeavours by their own lights. The nuclear advancement of ppro is a bit of a sight for the ages really.
They are looking to validate CC and the development model it affords.

Whether shantanyu cans 40% of them once he feels a plump subscription pillow under his arse is another matter.

Personally, this feels like war time effort. because if the PPro team keep going at this rate, they're going to discover warp fusion by 2018.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:37:02 pm

[David Mathis] "Then, on the other hand, being able to cook from scratch, ready made transitions, generators, effects, and titles in Motion is pretty darned sweet. That is why I really enjoy working with Motion, plus a solid tool for a mere $50, not bad.
"


...transitions, generators, effects, and titles AND TEMPLATES from companies like motionVFX or make your own. If you're working on graphics for another X editor you don't have to finalize things. The rigging and publishing tools are way ahead of simple text replace function AE has in Premiere. You can simply provide templates where the editor can change titles, colors, images, anything. But I assume the next AE version is going to tackle that and hopefully the whole playback engine.

I'm starting to enjoy groups over pre comps too. The ability to work on a group in Motion so you're seeing it in context with the whole project is great. In AE I'm constantly going back and forth from a pre comp to see if the change I made was too big, too small, etc. It'd be great it AE if you could just twirl down a pre comp and have everything available to edit right in the main comp. It'd also sometimes be nice in Motion to double click a group and work on a group all by it's lonesome without the clutter of other layers.

It will be interesting to see what BMD does. Where people are giving Apple a pass sometimes saying that it's new, it'll take awhile to get all the features back, BMD is just racing ahead but at the same time getting the basic building blocks right from the start. Where FCP X started with the futuristic new stuff, and is still working on some of the basic building blocks. My guess is with some features they've painted themselves into a corner and are having trouble implementing some features to their liking.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 10:14:18 pm

[Bret Williams] "It'd be great it AE if you could just twirl down a pre comp and have everything available to edit right in the main comp."

you can always padlock a second viewer for the pre-comp and pancake the two timelines. works pretty much perfectly..

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 7:30:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "If for the rest of time, I got NONE of the things on Steve's list (valid as is surely is) back - I'd still fight tooth and nail anyone who wanted to take away the things that X does do for the speed and efficiency of my daily editing practice.

The "glass" in X might look half full to some. But I kinda see it as a glass that's overflowed five or six times, and the fact that it's not full to the brim right now simply allows Apple to add more juicy goodness from the pitcher later!

And so it goes."


Hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 8:53:10 pm

hey come on - there is always good boundless yank optimism - recently ground into ryder cup dust under the mighty boot of Europe mind you.

Seriously - how good was that tho? Monstered them.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Sep 30, 2014 at 9:03:26 pm

I think Bill's glass is full of Kool-Aid.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:00:45 am

Then game on, guys.

Which of the major practical functions which are baked into the DNA of X (that I mentioned by specific description) do YOU think is worth trading away to get "better key framing" or one of the other elements mentioned in this thread?

Honestly. Which one is more important as a speed enhancer than magnetism? Or the Event Browser. Or keyword collections?

I'll listen in rapt anticipation.

Anyone?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:00:17 am

[Bill Davis] "Which of the major practical functions which are baked into the DNA of X (that I mentioned by specific description) do YOU think is worth trading away to get "better key framing" or one of the other elements mentioned in this thread?

Is Import from iMovie baked into the DNA of X? 'Cause I'm sure a lot of people would be okay if the energy that went into making Import from iMovie went into just about anything other than Import from iMovie. ;)

Honestly. Which one is more important as a speed enhancer than magnetism? Or the Event Browser. Or keyword collections?"

Isn't this a context sensitive question? I mean, some projects might require a lot of prep and organization and very little key framing while others require like prep and organization but live and die by key frames. No one NLE can be everything to everybody so I'm glad that we have, and hope that we will continue to have, a lot of competition in the NLE market.


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 12:49:25 pm

There is in fact no longer an import from iMovie. You have to send to FCP from within iMovie. Yep. We have no send to Motion, but we have send to FCP from iMovie.


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:51:33 am

[Bill Davis] "Which of the major practical functions which are baked into the DNA of X (that I mentioned by specific description) do YOU think is worth trading away to get "better key framing" or one of the other elements mentioned in this thread?

Honestly. Which one is more important as a speed enhancer than magnetism? Or the Event Browser. Or keyword collections?

I'll listen in rapt anticipation. "


Why would you need to trade away things in order to get basic functions back into FCP X?


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:03:35 pm

[Steve Connor] "Why would you need to trade away things in order to get basic functions back into FCP X?"

Development requires prioritization.

You shouldn't need to trade anything existing away to get new features going forward, but looking backward, Bill's question makes sense.

Development resources are limited. Designing and implementing a better keyframing system would have taken time away from other things you can take for granted today. Implementing any new feature basically comes at the cost of not implementing some other new feature(s).

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 12:54:57 pm

[Bill Davis] "Then game on, guys. "

Aw geez Bill I was just kidding with ya. The glass/kool-aid metaphor was too hard to resist. Drinking Kool Aid is ok anyway. I suspect many of us are a bit guilty of that. I mean, have I gone and researched whether the new Samsung is a better more efficient phone for my needs? Nope. I went and bought a new iPhone 6. Quite refreshing.


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:41:49 pm

Bill, I think you might have fallen into your own trap. After reading your post several times, I think it could be argued that you might be accepting a glass half full.

Anybody who reads this forum on a regular basis, gets the notion that if a feature isn't needed by you, then it isn't important.

I just think a lot of us disagree. You love the database, and probably couldn't live without it. I'll bet there are plenty of people here who don't use it to the extent that you do, and might not see it as critically important... but I don't hear anybody suggesting that because it isn't a critical feature to them, that it's not important?

I'm happy for you that the kinds of projects you do, and the the things you need to do them are already in FCP X. You should consider yourself lucky, because it's clear that a lot of people are in a different boat.

I'll close by saying that even though your position with Apple has grown since FCP X's release, you might want to consider the source. Remember Steve was a major evangelist and WAS the Apple in-house Trainer for many years. My point is... if a major Apple Evangelist like Steve thinks that FCP X is missing some crucial things, you might want to think about "getting on it". Steve has a history and a reputation of not being difficult. When he says things like this, it sure as hell gets my attention. I wonder if it will get Apple's?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:07:50 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Bill, I think you might have fallen into your own trap."

Respectfully, I disagree.

There's no "trap" here. Just an exercise in, perhaps, clarity of perspective.

I saw a group of posts in a thread that seemed to echo what happened on the X introduction. The crowd is excited and enthused, and then a few "smarter than thou" voices just has to come in and tell everyone that they're wrong about being excited about the thing - that in fact, the list of things to be improved, is, ipso facto, proof that the entire program is useless crap.

Steve, (who's very FIRST FCP Legacy class I took in Santa Monica back in 1999 and who I've known for more than a decade) put out a very reasonable and fair list of things he would like to see improved about X. Like most, I agree with much of what he listed.

Then look what happened. immediately. Right here. Ill informed (in my opinion) voices popped up instantly proffering a silly interpretation of what he'd written - essentially trying to "spin" what he wrote into "SEE, look at all the DEFICIENCIES in X - how can anyone use that turkey."

All I did was indulge in a bit of snarky pointing out that if all you do when you encounter an attractive person is come away form the encounter obsessed about their current haircut, clothes, or a silly hat. Then you've missed the essence.

Discussions of clothing are fun. Perhaps even important in some senses. But to conflate them with the discussion of the PERSON wearing them is stupid.

That was my point. Still is. Take care.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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James Ewart
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 5:55:58 am

I actually like the fact that FCPX encourages us to work more like audio editors with controlled cross fades as opposed to being a little bit lazy and just using a default. However Alex4D dos have an audio only dissolve plugin that I also use.


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 6:10:31 am

[James Ewart] "I actually like the fact that FCPX encourages us to work more like audio editors with controlled cross fades as opposed to being a little bit lazy and just using a default."

Totally agree. I use dissolve fx on audio all the time in 7 and Pr, but only because doing manual fades is a PITA. Easy as pie in X, more control, and about as quick. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Davidson
#11
on Sep 30, 2014 at 11:02:23 pm

I would like a preference check box to automatically apply broadcast safe limits on all exports.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Charlie Austin
Re: #11
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:04:07 am

[John Davidson] "I would like a preference check box to automatically apply broadcast safe limits on all exports"

It'd be nice if Compressor had a Broadcast Safe filter available. Does it?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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John Davidson
Re: #11
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:17:19 pm

[Charlie Austin] "It'd be nice if Compressor had a Broadcast Safe filter available. Does it?
"


Sadly, it does not.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Bill Davis
Re: #11
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:38:25 pm

John,

I presume you tried keeping a broadcast safe adjustment layer in a project somewhere and applying that before you output?

Is that just too "workaround"?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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John Davidson
Re: #11
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:45:29 pm

We exported 4 versions of a spot for air. The editor forgot to add broadcast safe filter to one of them and it turned out to be 4% over levels on a bloom transition. The network caught and clamped it but since this is we always add broadcast safe filters 'just to be safe', why not have it as a permanent, built-in option?

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 12:53:38 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:05:02 am

In the order he presents them:

# 10- Steve is wrong. If you insist on using crossfade effects on collapsed audio, you can expand it (as he does) and adjust each handle by a frame or more. Then when you delete the effect the handles remain. In any case, just cut with expanded audio and doing crossfades is easy... kinda like his screen flow example, but you need to drag the fade handles yourself.

#9-Video fade handles/opacity bar would be nice, though it'd make the clips kind of busy unless you work with a tall view. I just use the inspector unless I'm doing fades. Easy. Maybe inspector panels should be able to turn into HUD's. That'd be cool.

#8-Agree

#7-Meh... I guess it'd be OK if you like dragging things around. I don't, so Copy/Paste Attributes is my preference. Works great if you add a KB shortcut for pasting attributes. (I use SHIFT-CMD-V) Since individual effects/parameters are selectable I think it's a better option...

#6-Agree

#7-Agree

#4-Agree. I'd like to see a lot more things useable as HUD's. Love that in Motion.

#3-Agree

#2-Wrong again... kinda. If you open the canned title effect in Motion and just save it *before* you use it, you can modify it all you want after the fact and the changes will ripple to the sequence. The "kinda" part is because you need to close the project (by closing the Library or something) so the effect refreshes. Being able to close a project timeline is what's needed here. ;-)

#1- Agree. As noted above, it does work in a limited fashion now but should be way better.


The biggest "missing" feature for me would be match frame replace. Other improvements are needed, but there aren't really any show stoppers.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:16:54 am

Not sure where this fits in the list (if it does at all) is about fades on the video side of the equation. You could use the create an effect template in Motion, add a fade in / out behavior effect and publish all the parameters. Save that and use it in FCP X, not sure about this being redundant. Any thoughts?


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tony west
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:23:58 am

[Charlie Austin] "
# 10- Steve is wrong. If you insist on using crossfade effects on collapsed audio, you can expand it (as he does) and adjust each handle by a frame or more. Then when you delete the effect the handles remain. In any case, just cut with expanded audio and doing crossfades is easy... kinda like his screen flow example, but you need to drag the fade handles yourself. "


I was going to respond to 10 but you beat me to it.

I don't know why Steve used that example the way he did. He's a much better X-man than me but I would never use the route he used to accomplish that.


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 1:53:44 am

[tony west] "He's a much better X-man than me but I would never use the route he used to accomplish that."

Me either. He's basically saying you can't put a crossfade effect on embedded audio, which there's really no reason to do. Actually, there's an Alex 4d audio only fade transition out there somewhere for anyone who wants it. http://blog.alex4d.com/2011/07/11/fcpx-transition-sound-only/ He reworked the fade effect so it doesn't do anything to the video...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Helmut Kobler
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 2:00:41 am

NUMBER 1 ON MY LIST:

1) More responsive UI!

I just finished cutting a 3.5 minute video and was annoyed at the laggy UI in general -- the playhead stuttering when beginning playback, a .5 second delay when clicking a clip to seeing it selected, stuff like that.

This is on a 6 core 2013 Mac Pro with 32GB of ram, and a 8 drive Thunderbolt 2 RAID, so I know it's not my hardware. Sometimes quitting and relaunching FCP X would help, but in general, the interface is not spry.

-------------------
Los Angeles Cameraman
Canon C300 (x2), Zeiss CP.2 lenses, P2 Varicam, etc.
http://www.lacameraman.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 2:52:35 am

[Helmut Kobler] "but in general, the interface is not spry."

This is annoying, but were you cutting with the inspector open? I find that keeping it closed makes X run like butter. Open, not so much. Hope they sort this out...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Helmut Kobler
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:35:38 am

Charles, I was indeed cutting with the Inspector open. I'll try with it closed but that's a horrible "solution" since I use the inspector all the time.

Thanks for the tip though!

-------------------
Los Angeles Cameraman
Canon C300 (x2), Zeiss CP.2 lenses, P2 Varicam, etc.
http://www.lacameraman.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:08:24 am

[Helmut Kobler] "I'll try with it closed but that's a horrible "solution" since I use the inspector all the time."

I agree, If you do notice a difference, please send feedback to Apple. Honestly, CMD-4 is my most used keystroke :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:18:08 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I agree, If you do notice a difference, please send feedback to Apple. Honestly, CMD-4 is my most used keystroke :-)
"


I've remapped to f16. One button is easier than two! ....At least some of the time!

See?



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Lance Bachelder
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:12:16 pm

I mapped mine to the bell on my chair so everyone knows when I'm inspecting something...


It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:26:02 pm

[Helmut Kobler] "Charles, I was indeed cutting with the Inspector open. I'll try with it closed but that's a horrible "solution" since I use the inspector all the time."

You have it open all the time because you have to. Which is the point of this thread...

Apple forces you into the tedious 1990's approach of using the Inspector to adjust things that we should be able to do on the timeline. If you had all the things Steve discussed then you could close the Inspector... which I think we would all do the minute we could...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:41:17 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Apple forces you into the tedious 1990's approach of using the Inspector to adjust things that we should be able to do on the timeline. If you had all the things Steve discussed then you could close the Inspector.."

huh? There are timeline operations that should be more efficient sure, what do you feel you can't do? I use the inspector for things like text adjustments, effects controls, color controls etc. Things I'd need to open a panel/tab for in other NLE's. The issue (IMO) with the inspector is that it's always updating in real time which, depending on your project, sometimes bogs down. I'd imagine Apple is aware of this, and in practice it's more of an annoyance than a "problem". There are plenty of annoying things in Pr and MC as well. FCP 7 is, of course, perfect. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:44:10 pm

[Charlie Austin] "huh? There are timeline operations that should be more efficient sure, what do you feel you can't do? I use the inspector for things like text adjustments, effects controls, color controls etc. Things I'd need to open a panel/tab for in other NLE's. The issue (IMO) with the inspector is that it's always updating in real time which, depending on your project, sometimes bogs down. I'd imagine Apple is aware of this, and in practice it's more of an annoyance than a "problem". There are plenty of annoying things in Pr and MC as well. FCP 7 is, of course, perfect. ;-)"

Jeez Charlie, how about the things that have already been discussed in this thread?

BTW, Charlie... who gets to decide when something crosses the threshold from Annoying to a Problem? It sounds like you might have given yourself that duty... :-)

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:07:37 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Jeez Charlie, how about the things that have already been discussed in this thread?
"


As far as I can see, the only timeline related thing discussed is that the clip opacity bar is harder to get to than other NLE's. The audio fade thing could maybe be reworked, but is really is a non-issue, it's just the way audio components work. And any comparison to other NLE's in really Apples to Oranges as none of them have embedded audio components. You can detach your audio and add fade effects to the connected audio clips just like any other NLE. If you keep the components embedded you work with them in, uh, the way they work. If you cut in MC you need to step into effects - which people who don't like MC might consider a flaw - but it's just the way it works right?

[Mitch Ives] "BTW, Charlie... who gets to decide when something crosses the threshold from Annoying to a Problem? It sounds like you might have given yourself that duty... :-)"

lol. Yes, I am the decider! Look, Like most everything here, I'm expressing my opinion. Just for laughs, I'm cutting spots for the same job in Pr and X the last week or so. Same source footage, music, SFX library, everything. Both have annoying aspects. Although... having Pr open in the background doesn't do anything for me when I'm in X. But having X open in the background make cutting in Pr easier. It's exponentially easier to locate shots in multiple feature reels and audition SFX etc in X, then, knowing where they are, pop to Pr and use them. Also, tracks are a PITA. According to me. The decider! ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:13:44 am

Well, this is certainly a very interesting list. Thanks for sharing.


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:17:58 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Well, this is certainly a very interesting list."

How so?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:41:51 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:43:23 am

Talking points in Adobe demo's would be my guess?

Close your eyes and you can almost hear the email zinging around the Premier team HQ.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 10:24:02 am

[Bill Davis] " Talking points in Adobe demo's would be my guess?"

Fanciful supposition(!) but in truth Adobe focuses on presenting what we are doing for our customers based on constant feedback from said customers as well as observations on trends, new technology, emerging workflows, etc.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 2:13:29 pm

I'd be very happy if FCPX didn't lag so damn much with playback via video interface. Premier Pro or FCP7 doesn't have that issue.


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Andy Field
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 2:52:55 pm

Can't speak much for FCP X (gave up on it a while ago....Audio tracks fades a real time mixers are just too critical to our work to do without....seriously I've tried it it the FCP X way and it's maddening with all the range selecting and pen tool tweaking for critical mixing -

I can tell you that Premiere Pro CC is the tool for anyone adept at FCP 7 and looking for an easy, faster transition.

We just finished a three day 15 minute a night trade show nightly news program -- 4 people on laptops creating a show from scratch - Graphics, animation supers music and complex sound mixes color correction - turned around each day in less than 8 hours...

blistering fast, responsive -- and best of all throw any codec - ANY codec in the timeline and edit - no transcoding - period...output to web DVD and MPEG playback all at once through ADOBE media encoder quickly - done in time for a great dinner for the team

I say this being a long time FCP user (since version 1) and being heartbroken over the first Tinkertoy release....yes I know it's gotten better - yes we've used it for multicam edits (very nice - although know that we know Premiere's multicam - also nice)

as for Bill Davis's "what would you give up for the list of missing items?" Why do you need to give anything up? it's like asking a carpenter -- "you want a screw driver?...hand me back your hammer" Adobe's winning over editors who make a living with the tool because it's listening to its customes and adding what they request.

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:06:29 pm

[Andy Field] " Adobe's winning over editors who make a living with the tool because it's listening to its customes and adding what they request."

Well, except for the little "monthly rental ONLY for rest of your career - and don't dare fail to pay or you're cut off from all your work product unless you're a photographer" thing.

I think it's pretty fair to point out they're kinda having a bit of an issue with "listening to customers and adding what they request" about that itty bitty aspect, right?

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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:26:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Well, except for the little "monthly rental ONLY for rest of your career - and don't dare fail to pay or you're cut off from all your work product unless you're a photographer" thing. I think it's pretty fair to point out they're kinda having a bit of an issue with "listening to customers and adding what they request" about that itty bitty aspect, right?"

Adobe may be having an issue adding what prospects request, but I think a lot of actual customers are quite happy.

The thing I like the best about subscription is that it finally makes me, as a long-time user and paying customer, just as important to Adobe as a new sale.

That means less shiny, marketing-oriented features under development and more things-I-use-everyday features under development.

This is not theoretical. It's actually happening.

My primary Adobe app is After Effects. Adobe spent a lot of effort developing a ray-tracing renderer for CS6 (perpetually licensed). It's a nice idea, and it sure does look great "on the tin" or in a demo, but it's not a feature that people generally use daily.

Since CC, Ae's focus hasn't been on big marquee features like the ray-tracing renderer. Instead, we're getting lots of little improvements that I use all the time, like improved scaling, snapping in the viewer, spring-loaded folders, property links, scripting enhancements, Kuler integration. These are things that make the software better to use, every single day. I have never been happier with the direction of Ae's development than I am right now.

A product manager could have been fired for good solid releases like these under the old model, because "snapping in the viewer" is not going to move new licenses.

I feel about perpetual licenses the way you feel about tracks. It turns out that while we thought they were necessary to get work done, there are some unique advantages in different models.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:46:41 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The thing I like the best about subscription is that it finally makes me, as a long-time user and paying customer, just as important to Adobe as a new sale.

That means less shiny, marketing-oriented features under development and more things-I-use-everyday features under development.

This is not theoretical. It's actually happening."


I hadn't thought of it like that before - good point!


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:48:53 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I feel about perpetual licenses the way you feel about tracks. It turns out that while we thought they were necessary to get work done, there are some unique advantages in different models."

I totally get this, Walter.

And in the initial blush of the transition, it's not surprising to me that Adobe is doing a great job in pushing new features and refinements to the software in the new subscription model.

And if they continue to do this across the long term product life, then it's a big win for guys like you who are invested in the system and are delighted with fast, incremental progress.

But I do wonder how it's going to play out over time. What happens when the market for the approach gets closer to saturation. My concern is that nobody I've ever been around at the top of the corporate heaps has EVER been happy with sustained profits at level X. They lust for period over period GROWTH. It's what makes corporate types salivate.

And that typically means turning their attention away from existing and mature products to NEW products.

And so it's fair to question whether in 2 years or 5 years, the delightful new capabilities you value so much continue to flow or stagnate if they don't contribute to revenue growth.

Nobody knows the answers to this stuff. We're all guessing.

They say entropy is a feature of the universe. I hope for your sake it's not a feature of the maturing of the new Adobe model.

Time will tell.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:08:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "But I do wonder how it's going to play out over time. What happens when the market for the approach gets closer to saturation. My concern is that nobody I've ever been around at the top of the corporate heaps has EVER been happy with sustained profits at level X. They lust for period over period GROWTH. It's what makes corporate types salivate. And that typically means turning their attention away from existing and mature products to NEW products. And so it's fair to question whether in 2 years or 5 years, the delightful new capabilities you value so much continue to flow or stagnate if they don't contribute to revenue growth."

Nearly everyone on this forum focuses on the power Adobe has over its customers with subscription; almost no one mentions the power that we customers have over Adobe.

If Adobe does not continue to make me happy, I will drop my subscription and it will hurt them a tiny bit. If Adobe does not continue to make the users of an entire product line happy, they will drop their subscriptions and it will hurt them a lot. Simple as that.

Subscription commits Adobe to keeping their customers happy over longer spans of time than perpetual licenses never did. I have to remain a CC subscriber for 3 years and 9 months before Adobe gets the same money out of me that they would have for a one-off Master Collection sale.

I believe that in some alternate universe, subscription software was the norm. Then a company called Altobe introduced a perpetual license, and their former customers were livid! The cost was shockingly high! And once you bought it, you couldn't expect any updates -- why? Did Altobe think they could no longer maintain their end of the relationship in the future? Did they intend on withholding features to try to get you to buy an upgrade, too? Was this all some kind of crazy cash grab to extract large amounts of capital from their customers?

You point to market saturation like this is a problem for selling subscription but isn't a problem for selling perpetual licenses. I think this is a flawed argument.

On the contrary, I think that subscription is the more sustainable model for users like me who are interested in seeing the products they rely on continue to grow.

I also think it opens the door for a services component that complements the desktop product offerings, offering Adobe streams of new revenue and customers new value. In the long run, I think this is the most interesting opportunity for Creative Cloud, and I wonder if someday we will wonder how we ever worked with desktop-bound applications.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:50:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I feel about perpetual licenses the way you feel about tracks. It turns out that while we thought they were necessary to get work done, there are some unique advantages in different models."

Wow... I wish I could be that kind. For me (disclaimer), the number one solid proof that they don't listen to their customers is that they shove the subscription model down your throat. Anything else they do, doesn't offset that.

Have they added the permanent off ramp yet... or is it still like the mob? If you ever try and leave, do you have any way of ever opening up your existing projects? If not, they still aren't listening, wouldn't you say? At the very minimum, they should provide for that. Hopefully, you'll tell me that they have?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:09:03 pm

As of this moment, still no exit strategy.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:32:52 pm

[David Mathis] "As of this moment, still no exit strategy."

Technically not true.

They've built that exit ramp for the photographers, allowing Lightroom to continue being sold as a perpetual license. I don't know why.

I hope it's not merely because they know that if they didn't do that, the solid competing options like C1 and score of photo manipulation tools might steel significant market share.

If BlackMagic does develop into a strong fourth NLE alternate that's even MORE FCP Legacy like in the developing Resolve space, I do wonder how that will affect Adobe's model.

Honestly, I think it's going to depend on the economy. If it strengthens over time, then monthly draws at this level will be increasingly ignorable. But if the economy remains weak, (and I see very little evidence that Washington is doing stuff to get off their asses and actually help strengthen it) then the hordes leaving video trade schools and moving into their early careers might simply be forced to opt out of the monthly hit - whether or not that's their preference.

Did you see yesterday's news that Germany is ELIMINATING their college tuition system and opening their to all qualified students at no cost.

Imagine that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:08:22 pm

Bill, curious to hear your thoughts on the recent acquisition of Fusion by Blackmagic Design. This is of great interest to me.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:24:32 pm

[David Mathis] "Bill, curious to hear your thoughts on the recent acquisition of Fusion by Blackmagic Design. This is of great interest to me."

I don't work in the MoGraph space so I know little about it.

I will say that I've had a few "backstage" chats with Grant Petty and have conducted two "on the record" interviews with Dan May of BlackMagic and my take is that they're both extremely capable guys running a very smart and forward looking operation.

If they feel Fusion fits into their long range plan, it's for a darn good set of reasons. So I think your hope in it's development is well placed.

I'm also on record as saying that in the area where I have more familiarity - after a very close look at the URSA technology, I think the've decoded some of the larger issues with the current generation of under-engineered large sensor cameras and that their products are being built around concepts that may well contribute to longer serviceable life than some of their competitors. That kinda flies in the face of the "obsolete after a few years" approach other manufacturers seem content to live with.

But I have no knowledge beyond my "on the record" discussions. Past that, I'm guessing like anyone else.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:23:50 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Wow... I wish I could be that kind. For me (disclaimer), the number one solid proof that they don't listen to their customers is that they shove the subscription model down your throat. Anything else they do, doesn't offset that."

Mitch, I don't think it's an issue of kindness. My After Effects example shows an objective difference between the development goals under CS and then under CC -- both under the same product manager.

Of course, though, electing to subscribe is a personal decision, and its viability for any individual will be based on what he or she values.

For me, the value of a perpetual license is hugely overstated. I was on de facto subscription anyway, automatically upgrading to stay current to be able to interchange files with clients and collaborators. Skipping an upgrade was not a viable option for my business, and the stacks of CD-ROMs of the Ghosts of Creative Suite Past on my shelf do not help me do good work for my clients in 2014 in the least.

Some people cannot tolerate the risk of not having a perpetual license. I understand and respect your reasoning. Maybe CC is not for you.

My point in all this is that Creative Cloud is not just a new way to sell Creative Suite. It's a big ball of yarn that includes sales and marketing, yes, but also -- critically -- product design, development, and support.

A non-CC subscriber asking for perpetual licenses back is like a non-FCPX user asking for tracks back. If you do it, you damage what made CC/FCPX unique and valuable to its paying customers in the first place.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:43:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A non-CC subscriber asking for perpetual licenses back is like a non-FCPX user asking for tracks back. If you do it, you damage what made CC/FCPX unique and valuable to its paying customers in the first place."

With all due respect Walter (and I mean that sincerely), I think that's a bit of a stretch...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 4:53:43 pm

[Mitch Ives] "With all due respect Walter (and I mean that sincerely), I think that's a bit of a stretch..."

May I ask why?

Here's my logic:

Adding tracks to FCPX would require adding patching and would blunt the advantages of the magnetic timeline. It would also divide the attention of the development team as they develop new timeline-oriented features.

Adding perpetual licenses to CC would require taking development and testing effort away from bug fixes plus new features for subscription holders to put into back-porting bug fixes only for perpetual license holders, or would require leaving perpetual license holders utterly unsupported via bug fixes.

Adding perpetual licenses to CC would also muddy development priorities, creating tension between the marketing-oriented features and the actual user-oriented features I noted above.

In both cases, adding back something traditional to the new model for prospects has a cost that's contrary to the interests of current customers who are benefiting from the new model.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Mitch Ives
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:06:37 pm

[Walter Soyka] "May I ask why?"

First, I would never argue that FCP X get tracks back. I am, in the interest of full disclosure, not a track hater. I have projects where tracks make things easier than the magnetic timeline. One of the reasons I'm looking at R11. Still, I've never advocated that Apple add them to FCP X. That die was cast.

Second, I don't buy into your logic that it's the subscription model that results in those things you treasure. Not arguing with you, just not agreeing.

Third, I notice you didn't respond to my question about the missing off-ramp? In fairness, neither does Adobe. I understand why... it's a no-win situation.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:25:55 pm

[Mitch Ives] "First, I would never argue that FCP X get tracks back."

That's kind of the point of my argument, to persuade you by illustrating how the argument you are making is very much like one you wouldn't!


[Mitch Ives] "Second, I don't buy into your logic that it's the subscription model that results in those things you treasure. Not arguing with you, just not agreeing."

I don't take argument personally. I'm curious as to where you think my reasoning goes off the rails.

If one new license sale gets you the same cash as five upgrade sales, and if some high portion of existing customers regularly skip say every other upgrade, where do you think product managers are best rewarded for focusing their teams' energies?

Now, if keeping an existing customer next month gets you the exact same cash as adding a new one, would that alter your priorities if you were a PM?


[Mitch Ives] "Third, I notice you didn't respond to my question about the missing off-ramp?"

I thought I addressed it directly. I called not having a perpetual license a risk, because it is.

I also explained that since I must plan on buying updates to keep current with others, and since technologies changes so fast, the value of a perpetual license is low for my business.

I also questioned the impact of supporting that off-ramp on new development, or alternately the wisdom of leaving off-ramped customers unsupported.

Frankly, I would love to see Adobe solve the off-ramp problem for users like you, because I think you would love the software. But, and I don't mean this personally, I'd hate for their solution for you to cost me something.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:12:10 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:13:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Adding perpetual licenses to CC would require taking development and testing effort away from bug fixes plus new features for subscription holders to put into back-porting bug fixes only for perpetual license holders, or would require leaving perpetual license holders utterly unsupported via bug fixes."

I think adding back a perpetual license in the form of a buyout option would give people an off ramp and not suck any resources from Adobe. For example, after 4 years of uninterrupted subscription to Adobe CC users will get a perpetual license to the most current version of all the Adobe CC apps at that time.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:35:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I think adding back a perpetual license in the form of a buyout option would give people an off ramp and not suck any resources from Adobe. For example, after 4 years of uninterrupted subscription to Adobe CC users will get a perpetual license to the most current version of all the Adobe CC apps at that time."

I think it's more complicated than that.

If you add a buyout option, then it must either be supported with bug fixes (detracting resources from subscription users) or it must be unsupported with bug fixes (putting Adobe in a very awkward position with paid customers).

If you add a buyout option, you alter your development priorities and get back to the new user/existing user conundrum. How would the quick cash flood of selling buyouts versus the steady cash drip of subscriptions alter your development priorities as a product manager? You might even end up with a perverse incentive for PMs to essentially kick people off subscription then get them back on by manipulating the pace of development.

Again, I totally understand why people want perpetual licenses, and I hope that a good solution can be found, but I really meant that "ball of yarn" analogy. Pulling on it in sales affects development and support.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 5:50:12 pm

[Walter Soyka] "If you add a buyout option, then it must either be supported with bug fixes (detracting resources from subscription users) or it must be unsupported with bug fixes (putting Adobe in a very awkward position with paid customers).

If you add a buyout option, you alter your development priorities and get back to the new user/existing user conundrum. How would the quick cash flood of selling buyouts versus the steady cash drip of subscriptions alter your development priorities as a product manager? You might even end up with a perverse incentive for PMs to essentially kick people off subscription then get them back on by manipulating the pace of development."


Buyout might be the wrong term. Basically, after four years of uninterrupted subscription to Adobe CC the user gets a perpetual license for whatever the most recent version of Adobe CC is at that time, and there's no guarantee of bug fixes/continued support for that version once the next version of CC roles out. Sure, some people will hop off the subscription train for a bit, but if it takes 4 years of subscription to get a perpetual license there is still a lot of incentive to stay on the subscription train.

This is similar to Avid's new perpetual license model in which you can pay $299/yr for a 'maintenance contract' which gets you access to feature updates, bug fixes and new versions. If you do not renew for $299 then your copy of Avid MC is 'frozen in time' the moment your maintenance contract expires.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:15:47 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Buyout might be the wrong term. Basically, after four years of uninterrupted subscription to Adobe CC the user gets a perpetual license for whatever the most recent version of Adobe CC is at that time, and there's no guarantee of bug fixes/continued support for that version once the next version of CC roles out."

I like this idea, but I also fear that SOX makes the accounting for this unfavorable. Your subscription is now no longer really a subscription, but rather the sale of a product spread out over 4 years with a big chunk of value realization at the end.


[Andrew Kimery] "This is similar to Avid's new perpetual license model in which you can pay $299/yr for a 'maintenance contract' which gets you access to feature updates, bug fixes and new versions. If you do not renew for $299 then your copy of Avid MC is 'frozen in time' the moment your maintenance contract expires."

Note this critical difference: Avid is either sold perpetually (plus maintenance which is optional after the first year) or offered via subscription. There is no way to go from subscription to PL except by buying PL just like a new user.

Please don't misunderstand. I think that PL plus maintenance is a good thing for users and developers.

But it's not the same as CC, and I don't think it dodges the duality of designing for and marketing to new users versus existing users as I've outline above.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 7:12:58 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I like this idea, but I also fear that SOX makes the accounting for this unfavorable. Your subscription is now no longer really a subscription, but rather the sale of a product spread out over 4 years with a big chunk of value realization at the end. "

The legal side of it might be sticky but I'm not an export at SOX. Is this that much different than, say, a newspaper or magazine subscription (by that I mean they don't come and take away all of your back issues when you cancel)? If a separate purchase is necessary for accounting reasons Adobe could also just sell the perp license for $20 or something but that option is only available to users that have four years of continuous Adobe CC subscription.


[Walter Soyka] "But it's not the same as CC, and I don't think it dodges the duality of designing for and marketing to new users versus existing users as I've outline above."

Right, I wasn't meaning to say Avid's maintenance plan is the exact same as CC, but it's two different paths to a similar goal. Both companies want more predictable revenue and both companies want to be able to quickly add features w/o worrying about SOX. While Avid's plans offer more options for users (including some things people wish Adobe offered), it's also is a lot more confusing because the subscription gets you things that the perp license + maintenance contract does not.


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Bret Williams
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:21:09 pm

There are blatantly obvious ways to offer these things. If a solution arises that will increase revenue or Adobe's bottom line, then that is what they'll do. It has nothing to do with if it's a better solution for Walter or a worse solution for me. They're a publicly held company and this is increasing revenue. Offering any sort of buyout or perpetual has likely shown in their models that it will hurt revenue. That's it.

I think many are in Walter's boat and have done their own studies and it's actually better for their bottom line. They can even write off every dime of subscription every year while software, had to be depreciated over many years. For other's it's simply an increase in cost and a loss in power. IE they can't just keep using it forever if they need to.

No amount of discussion will change the two outlooks I believe.

Something else that isn't mentioned much here is the loss of eBay sales. Adobe wasn't getting a dime of the secondary market. They're killing 2 birds with one stone. Can't sell subscription software!


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 8:01:59 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "For example, after 4 years of uninterrupted subscription to Adobe CC users will get a perpetual license to the most current version of all the Adobe CC apps at that time"

If that happens, watch Wall Street RUN from the stock.

I've worked with upper level corporate executives for much of my career. A MASSIVE amount of their time is spent obsessing about share price.

And that in turn means that any decision that affects future quarterly profits in a negative fashion is typically anathema to them.

So any type of end point on a perpetual monthly revenue a total non-starter, IMO.

Its the same reason I believe they're so rigid about the rental model. It's locking in future returns in exchange for development that's largely already been done and paid for. (the code in place when they switched to rental from sales). Making something ONCE and getting income from the creation effort over and over again with nothing but incremental improvement costs across it's lifespan is a WAY better revenue model than unit sales. Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 8:35:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "If that happens, watch Wall Street RUN from the stock.
"


If Adobe offers an off ramp it will be because the subscriber numbers aren't being met and the stock price is going down.

Adobe's net income has dropped since they went subscription only (and is still trending down) but Wall Street is giving them the benefit of the doubt that after a rough transition period it will be onwards and upwards. If the onwards and upwards doesn't happen fast enough the stock price will start falling.

Some analysts think that those most willing to signup up for CC have already done so for the most part, so Adobe has to try and wait out the more reluctant users or sweeten the pot. Making the Photoshop + Lightroom bundle for $9.99/mo is already proof that Adobe is willing to make concessions (albeit to the largest and most mobile segment of its user base). I would love for Adobe to make more bundles for lower prices (like in the CS days) as opposed to the everything and the kitchen sink approach they are taking currently.

My armchair prediction is that Adobe will stick to its guns through 2015 but if the numbers still don't look good we'll see them sweetening the pot in 2016.


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:06:28 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Mitch Ives] "With all due respect Walter (and I mean that sincerely), I think that's a bit of a stretch..."

May I ask why?

Here's my logic:

Adding tracks to FCPX would require adding patching and would blunt the advantages of the magnetic timeline. It would also divide the attention of the development team as they develop new timeline-oriented features.

Adding perpetual licenses to CC would require taking development and testing effort away from bug fixes plus new features for subscription holders to put into back-porting bug fixes only for perpetual license holders, or would require leaving perpetual license holders utterly unsupported via bug fixes.

Adding perpetual licenses to CC would also muddy development priorities, creating tension between the marketing-oriented features and the actual user-oriented features I noted above.

In both cases, adding back something traditional to the new model for prospects has a cost that's contrary to the interests of current customers who are benefiting from the new model."


You do have a valid point here but must respectfully object to the current subscription model. One size does not fit all.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:17:39 pm

[David Mathis] "You do have a valid point here but must respectfully object to the current subscription model. One size does not fit all."

I agree wholeheartedly.

I bought Smoke 2013 a couple years back. Used it, loved it, paid my maintenance fees. Now it's going subscription only, and I'm not sure it's a good fit for my business anymore. It's all case-by-case.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Paul Neumann
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 6:26:44 pm

Here's a real world anecdote from a bigger perspective.

We recently sold a software product (release automation/continuous integration) into a BIG european financial outfit. They are really big on open source for their developers and that's cool 'cause we design our stuff to work with all that. Price tag was 400,000 euros. They were willing to pay this because our stuff does things that can't be found in open source. But they had no problem in saying in 3 years they will not renew if the same functionality CAN be found in open source. So our task is to innovate even more so that we stay ahead of what they can get for free and earn another 400,000 from them (hopefully even more).

So there's another example of the customer forcing the innovation. Yes, $50 a month is more than most one time price points, but to keep getting that $50 a month Adobe has to keep getting better. And changing the way they develop everything is what's letting them do that.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 1:41:22 am

[Paul Neumann] "...to keep getting that $50 a month Adobe has to keep getting better. And changing the way they develop everything is what's letting them do that."

Exactly!


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X (rant ish)
on Oct 3, 2014 at 9:28:02 pm

[Paul Neumann] "but to keep getting that $50 a month Adobe has to keep getting better. And changing the way they develop everything is what's letting them do that."

Oh for heaven's sake.

Flip this.

For decades, nobody in software did subscriptions. So software never got any better, right?

Wait, that sounds kinds silly, huh.

Somehow without rental as a part of the business model, companies developed software that evolved and thrived. So ADOBE is asking us to believe that there's something different today. What is that? What drives the necessary change in business model? It's certainly not altruism. Altruism buys you nothing in today's corporate america but a SOX investigation.

So sorry, but the claim that RENTAL is REQUIRED FOR INNOVATION is, IMO, a truly boneheaded argument.

It's a "talking point" to obscure the real process. Rental makes their customers pay more money than they used to. Period. End of story.

A sales model (as opposed to rental) history has proven over retail history to have every bit as much pressure for innovation UNLESS there are no competitive alternatives around!

And that's the danger in the subscription model, if the subscription based enterprise gets anywhere near a monopoly on an approach that their subscriber base requires to continue to earn their living, there's absolutely no counterveiling force in place to make that vendor innovate unless there's significant new subscribers to entice.

If there aren't, then the ONLY direct path to continued increased earnings (the Wall Street orgasm inducer of Comp Sales Growth) is price increases. And with a large captive subscriber base, somebody at the home office eventually just runs a price/demand graph and sets the price a fractional notch below the "I'm Leaving" pain threshold. Why? Because they can. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the product anymore. Or the satisfaction of the customers.

Product pride surely still exists in the back hallways at Adobe - and justifiably so. They're just being governed by an executive team that has absolutely no interest in being customer focused - unless that focus drives revenue. They will tell you thats' their JOB. And the'll be CORRECT. That's how the business class now DEFINES business success. REVENUE Growth Metrics. Period. Their pride is focused on competing with other same class business executives for Wall Street brownie points. The customers can eat cake unless and until there's a revolt.

Others will disagree, and I understand that. But until someone can show me a features/subscription curve that effects corporate earnings in the same way that the demand/price curve does, I'm just not buying it.

How many modern business examples do you need? How many operations where some CEO makes the entire workforce "part time" so they don't have to pay for health insurance? Or who off shores-everything so that they can pay China wages and cuts costs with a Mumbai call center? Don't ask me. Just look around the new America. Walk into your local branch bank and ask the 24 year old "branch manager" about it. Or into McDonalds and ask the 20 year old "store manager" there. Crapping on the customer with incompetent operations is totally cool in modern American corporate thinking just as long as your labor costs can be pushed into the basement.

What's odd is that corporate America STILL wants us to feel loyal to their company brands while they have the freedom to show absolutely NO loyalty to their employees or to their customers.

No corporation is perfect in this. Not Apple, not Costco, not Google or whoever is this years "associate satisfaction" winner. But at least don't be an obvious dick about it. That's all I ask. And don't pretend you're giving me something "better" than what I had when I was paying 40% less for the same thing last year. Or tell me it's a "quality improvement" when I've forced to perpetually rent something I could buy last time around if that fits my business needs better.

Sheesh

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 7:52:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A non-CC subscriber asking for perpetual licenses back is like a non-FCPX user asking for tracks back. If you do it, you damage what made CC/FCPX unique and valuable to its paying customers in the first place."

But Walter,

If they can sustain software development for their photography customers outside the rental model, then explain to me why exactly that can't sustain development of their other tools in the same fashion?

Seems to me that thy've made a specific decision that the photography customers are simply too important to risk alienating - while the rest of their customer bases, not so much.

I'm very open to the possibility that I'm completely miss-reading this. But right now, it looks like they're unwilling to risk revolt amongst their largest customer group (photography) and very willing to risk it with all their other customer constituencies.

It's puzzling.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 8:14:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "If they can sustain software development for their photography customers outside the rental model, then explain to me why exactly that can't sustain development of their other tools in the same fashion?"

Lightroom seems to operate entirely outside the CC development model. I don't think I get anything extra in Lightroom as a CC subscriber than you would get as a Lightroom PL customer.

Could Adobe have continued developing and selling Creative Suite instead of transitioning to CC? Sure, why not? Could Apple have continued developing and selling FCP7 instead of transitioning to FCPX? Sure, why not?

When Apple makes a big change that opens up new opportunities for them and offers new workflows for their customers, we call it "innovative" and we call it a "game changer." When Adobe does it (even though they are still actively selling CS6 if you want to buy it), it's "alienating" and "risking revolt."

I know a lot of people here think it's hot air, but I believe that this is a sensible vision for the future:
https://www.adobe.com/cc/letter.html

I think it's the same kind of vision that drives Apple to create "innovative" and "game changing" products like FCPX.

Like FCPX, CC is not all roses. There are real disadvantages to CC versus CS. But also like FCPX, there just might be a bigger picture to CC if you are willing to set aside your preconceptions.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 1:51:49 am

[Walter Soyka] "Lightroom seems to operate entirely outside the CC development model. I don't think I get anything extra in Lightroom as a CC subscriber than you would get as a Lightroom PL customer."

Just some clarification.
Lightroom Mobile

There is also the Photography plan which is what most users are getting as opposed to an older perpetual license of Photoshop or Lightroom: https://creative.adobe.com/plans/photography


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 9:44:59 am

Hey, let's start a posting on the top ten things we want in Premiere and then Dennis can really get some info he can send back to corporate!

;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 9:51:19 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Hey, let's start a posting on the top ten things we want in Premiere and then Dennis can really get some info he can send back to corporate!"

More than happy to.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 9:56:35 am

Surely some snarky spoilsport would show up with a list like...

1. An integrated database.
2. A range based key wording system.
3. A magnetic timeline
4. Roles

And so on.

; )

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 10:05:38 am

[Bill Davis] "2. A range based key wording system.

Markers in Premiere/Prelude can be named and can extend for arbitrary lengths of time.


[Bill Davis] "1. An integrated database."

All NLEs are databases... but announced for the next release of Premiere Pro CC 2014 at IBC, a couple of features that would surely make you happy:

"New Search Bins allow editors to build new bins automatically, based on metadata searches within a project, with results showing as aliases of the original project items.

An advanced Timeline Search makes it simple to find and select clips within a sequence based on specific criteria such as Clip Name or Marker comment."


http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2014/09/ppro-cc-2014-next.html

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 5:05:29 pm

[Walter Soyka] "New Search Bins allow editors to build new bins automatically, based on metadata searches within a project, with results showing as aliases of the original project items.

An advanced Timeline Search makes it simple to find and select clips within a sequence based on specific criteria such as Clip Name or Marker comment.""


And everyone here wonders why Apple doesn't announce features that are coming to FCP X. :-/

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Shawn Miller
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 5:24:33 pm

[Charlie Austin] "[Walter Soyka] "New Search Bins allow editors to build new bins automatically, based on metadata searches within a project, with results showing as aliases of the original project items.

An advanced Timeline Search makes it simple to find and select clips within a sequence based on specific criteria such as Clip Name or Marker comment.""

And everyone here wonders why Apple doesn't announce features that are coming to FCP X. :-/"


Are you saying that Apple doesn't announce features because they might show up in other applications? Isn't that a good thing (for us)? I mean, one way or another all of these programs influence each other anyway, it usually seems to benefit "The Market"... do you disagree?

Shawn



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Charlie Austin
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 6:10:05 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Are you saying that Apple doesn't announce features because they might show up in other applications? Isn't that a good thing (for us)? I mean, one way or another all of these programs influence each other anyway, it usually seems to benefit "The Market"... do you disagree?"

I have no idea really, though Apple does tend to sandbag sometimes when there are other companies trying to beat them to market. Whether hardware or software. I think they know that things will get copied, as do other vendors. I think Apple, like anyone else, would prefer to be first. :-)

I don't think it's bad for us at all. As we've see, it all cross pollinates (at least anything that can) eventually... I think smart folders, uh... bins... will be a great addition to Pr. And, like hover scrub, not really like X at all.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Richard Herd
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 4:53:47 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Markers in Premiere/Prelude can be named and can extend for arbitrary lengths of time."

CS6's implementation is not useful at all. Prelude > Premiere is very useful but it is limited once it gets back into Premiere. The extended markers need to show up as subclips. And I couldn't even find the way to get the markers to show up in Premiere unless I opened the clip in the source window.

Hopefully I simply did something wrong and someone can help me with my workflow. Thanks!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 9:53:05 am

[Bill Davis] "Surely some snarky spoilsport would show up with a list like..."

Yes, sadly that was a little snarky...

At the end of the day we seek to make the best NLE for the most people just like every other company aspires to. We have our own ideas and of course take our customer input into consideration as well. I've said for many (many!) years that "every NLE has some good feature that makes it great," and I still believe that today.

As Walter has already pointed out a couple of bits on where we do address your feature requests, I will merely add that we take a look at a lot of feature requests and evaluate them on an ongoing basis. You see the results of that in our ongoing, constant improvement as reflected by our updates and version increases. This is a demonstrable benefit of the Creative Cloud membership though I understand why some people maintain their stance against it.

And under the category of 'couldn't resist' I will still be demure and say only that if Premiere Pro were being graded on Steve's top 10 feature requests, Premiere Pro gets an "A".

Out of respect for the community and the forum, I will not comment on this thread any further.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 11:10:17 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Out of respect for the community and the forum, I will not comment on this thread any further."

No-one will mind if you continue commenting on this thread!


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Brett Sherman
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 1:12:22 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "And under the category of 'couldn't resist' I will still be demure and say only that if Premiere Pro were being graded on Steve's top 10 feature requests, Premiere Pro gets an "A"."

Well that's a bit ridiculous. It's not like this is a list of the top 10 things any NLE should have. It's a list of what he wants in FCP X, which incidentally few would have made it into MY top 10 list. I'm sure Steve or any one of us could come up with a top 10 list of things Premiere Pro should have also.



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Richard Herd
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 5:10:13 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Premiere Pro gets an "A"."

A for Adobe!

And also Dynamic Link: Audition, After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator, Speed Grade, and Media Encoder are simply an amazing suite. Just screened a 5 minute video for a non-profit addiction recovery facility, and the client and agency sat in for the screening, and they were so moved by the emotion, they had tears. Thank you Adobe for the great tools! I cut straight to the story and emotion and do not worry about technogunk because your stuff works very well.


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David Mathis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 5, 2014 at 12:21:08 am

[Bill Davis] "Surely some snarky spoilsport would show up with a list like...

1. An integrated database.
2. A range based key wording system.
3. A magnetic timeline
4. Roles

And so on.

; )

Sorry, couldn't resist."


You forgot to add perpetual license!

Just had to get that out of my system. ;-)


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 2:00:28 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Hey, let's start a posting on the top ten things we want in Premiere and then Dennis can really get some info he can send back to corporate!

;-)"


#1 Send to Motion :)


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Scott Witthaus
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 11:29:02 am

[Steve Connor] "[Scott Witthaus] "Hey, let's start a posting on the top ten things we want in Premiere and then Dennis can really get some info he can send back to corporate!

;-)"

#1 Send to Motion :)"


#2 An interface that doesn't look like a 10 year old designed it.

#3 No tracks

Here ya go, Dennis. A start for your report!

;-)

All in fun. I don't do a lot of work in Premiere and try to avoid it if possible. I am sure I could get as fast on it as, say, Media Composer....

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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James Ewart
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 4:15:36 pm

I'd definitely like to see Adobe introduce a magnetic timeline with the ability to connect B roll to the primary storyline and move with the shots they were connected to. To build in the audio and be able to expand it only when you need to would tidy things up a bit. Oh so tedious to have the audio for v6, v7 etc. so very far away geographically

Keyword and smart collections would also help a lot instead of old fashioned bins for organising media.

How is Adobe when it comes to Multicam? I don't know. Never tried. Anything near as good as X?

I agree with Steve most about the opacity line (or lack of) and customising layouts.

Oh and I like owning my software and keeping it on my machine. Pay once. Use forever.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 3, 2014 at 5:46:27 pm

[James Ewart] "How is Adobe when it comes to Multicam? I don't know. Never tried. Anything near as good as X?"

I haven't used multicam in X but PPro's multicam is eons better Avid's and FCP 7's.


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Walter Soyka
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 10:10:13 am

[Dennis Radeke] "Just some clarification. Lightroom Mobile"

Dennis, thanks for correcting me.

Lightroom Mobile seems to be a separate service. Is the version of the main Lightroom application available to CC subscribers the same as the version available for perpetual license sales, or does Lightroom have two separate development tracks?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Dennis Radeke
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 10:30:07 am

To be honest Walter, I don't know for 100% certainty.

My understanding is that you can still purchase Lightroom as a perpetual license right now or as part of a subscription. Lightroom Mobile I believe is only available as part of a Creative Cloud membership.

I'll try to double check.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 2, 2014 at 6:47:56 pm

Just note that if Adobe was saddled with the same level of Kremlinology as Apple, the inclusion of Dennis's "right now" in the above statement would generate a thousand people yammering about the impending death of the Lightroom standalone purchase model.

Just saying'

(Personally, I think it's just him being appropriately careful in his public writing. Which I applaud.)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bill Davis
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 2:57:48 pm

[Erik Lindahl] "I'd be very happy if FCPX didn't lag so damn much with playback via video interface. Premier Pro or FCP7 doesn't have that issue."

Erik, what do you mean "via video interface" - I work with X and a USB driven second screen all the time and there's no lag at all. So it's not ALL video interfaces.

I see comments of this type quite a bit. But I don't see it consistently or hear that many editors saying they can't work efficiently in X. Far from it. Most of us who work in it daily, feel we're getting out work done extremely fluidly and easily.

I've also seen some discussions of how the X interface "slows down" in responsiveness when the Inspector is open, but I don't experience that at all. So I wonder if it's some combination of the interaction between number of projects open, or whether footage is optimized or not, or the size of graphics being used, or SOMETHING nobody's figured out yet - that causes this for some users, but not for wide swaths of other users.

I imagine it's a hassle. It's just not a hassle I encounter. Doesn't mean to imply it's not an issue. It just don'ts seem to be a "consistent" issue. Which, I'm sure, likely makes is MORE annoying for those who face it.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:03:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "I imagine it's a hassle. It's just not a hassle I encounter. Doesn't mean to imply it's not an issue. It just don'ts seem to be a "consistent" issue. Which, I'm sure, likely makes is MORE annoying for those who face it.
"


I didn't encounter any lag, apart from on bigger projects, however I'm just finishing a large project on PPro CC and when I go back to FCP X it seems to be that bit slower!


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Erik Lindahl
Re: 10 Things Steve Martin wants in FCP X
on Oct 1, 2014 at 3:06:12 pm

I'm using a 2013 MacPro, 8-core, 64GB RAM, 1TB internal SSD, 1TB externa TB2 SSD + 24TB Raid-5 storeage over TB2. All disks clock at around 1000 MB/s. We're using a UltraStudio 4K for playback. FCPX has a clear lag when playing / stopping in both the timeline and in the browser / library.

I've seen the same issue on a 2012 iMac and 2011 MacBook Pro with a smaller BlackMagic TB1 i/o device as well as a 2008 MacPro with a Kona 3 card. All this on everything from MacOS 10.8.x to 10.9.4 with a variety of FCPX releases.

It's not the hardware, it's FCPX that simply has some odd overhead / lag even when doing straight cuts / edits.

If I turn OFF A/V output there is zero lag on all the above machines. But then I'm looking at a computer screen preview not a reference monitor preview. Hard to do color critical or editorial decisions then.


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