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Apple Fanboys Anonymous

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Juan Morales
Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 1:53:11 pm

A 2 hour swan song in favour of the new FCP X:







Desperate times need desperate measures. How much are these guys being paid to do this video? Answers below please...


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Alan Okey
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 2:14:46 pm

[Juan Morales] "How much are these guys being paid to do this video? "

Alex Lindsay is beyond reproach. He's a gifted digital artist and educator. If he's bullish on FCP X, it's because he genuinely likes it, not because he's a paid shill.


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Juan Morales
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 2:19:54 pm

I'm sorry to have a different opinion than yours Alan. But... Just look at the non-verbal communication happening here. It's fascinating to say the least.


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Alan Okey
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 2:42:12 pm

[Juan Morales] "I'm sorry to have a different opinion than yours Alan. But... Just look at the non-verbal communication happening here. It's fascinating to say the least."

No need for you to apologize, mature adults can have differing opinions. I don't have time to watch the entire video right now, but I just wanted to voice my support of Alex. His primarily focus is VFX, not necessarily broadcast editing, so his opinion may reflect that.

To be clear, I'm not defending FCP X. I dislike the magnetic timeline and other aspects of the application, and it's not currently a tool that would be useful for many editors in a broadcast-centric postproduction environment. It may prove to be a valuable tool to many other users, but it's not something that meets my needs. I strongly disagree with how Apple has handled the transition, but it won't do me any good to rant about it endlessly when it's obvious that I'm not the kind of customer that Apple wants or needs. I'll keep using FCP 7, and eventually transition to Avid.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:08:14 pm

[edit] forget it - I actually cannot criticise alex lindsay. he's a patently good guy.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:39:01 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "side-stepping the massive inherent problems of having to tag *everything* to get it into a smart collection"

Not true. You only need to tag one clip. You can then drop everything you want into that collection and it all gets tagged automatically. It's no more difficult than creating a bin and dropping everything in to it. Instead of creating the named bin, you tag the clip and drop everything else on the Collection.

A great thing about Collections is that the same clip can be in multiple places which, at least, matches how my mind works. A outdoor interview might be in Interviews, Outdoors, Daytime, at the same time. At any given moment I might be in a situation where I just need and interview or I need Daytime Interviews or maybe something that fits all three.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:43:16 pm

yeah sorry, I just realised that reading back, guess it wasn't fitting into my slam the software worldview.. ermm.. anyway, deleted the post. Alex lindsay is like jimmy stewart meets charlie brown in a post suite or something. I will not besmirch the man.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 2:52:18 pm

What gets me going is how this is yet another example in what is now a Mt.Everest of examples where people who are being "negative" about the software are doing so unreasonably...while they acknowledge some of that reason, it just seems like there is a huge attempt to label editors reactions to this junk software as "unhinged"...

No one is saying it doesn't have some neat features...(although they eluded to that) eg: "YOU CAN"T BE NEGATIVE TO THAT FEATURE!!"
...but thumbnail previews and uncommitted previews are not going to outshine the bullocks of a timeline they produced which killed a lot of functionality for a lot of editors and the workflow issues...did I say "issues"..what issues, they aren't even there, there isn't a workflow....


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:43:33 pm

[Jamie Franklin] "the bullocks of a timeline they produced"

Timeline can have Connected clips and/or Secondary Storylines (behaves much like tracks). I've been editing for 30 years and I'm finding the new Timeline infinitely more flexible. Things can "stick" (connect" to clips when I like it. If I want to build a track with transitions etc. I can make them a Secondary Storyline. I can do either/or/both as I want. I'm not stuck in any one way of doing things.



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Matt Callac
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:45:07 pm

[Craig Seeman] " Things can "stick" (connect" to clips when I like it. If I want to build a track with transitions etc."

Exactly, no more annoyance of having to lock video tracks to do certain operations.

-mattyc


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Chad Nickle
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:32:59 pm

Hate to disagree Juan, but you have no idea what your talking about.


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Juan Morales
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:43:38 pm

Well, after working more than 15 years in the business I DO think that I know what I'm talking about. Guess you work for Apple as well?


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Ben Holmes
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:52:59 pm

Unfortunately, tempers have now run so high on this forum that anyone trying to be objective or defending X is dismissed as a fanboy, or a paid shill. It's a shame, and does no credit to anyone. It would be easy to say that those on the other side of the debate were paid shills of AVID or Adobe. I do not - and note that no one 'defending' X has attempted to do so.

I've had enough of it now - I'll stick to the techniques forum.

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Juan Morales
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:59:56 pm

I have to agree with you Ben. Still, it's not nice to hear "You don't know what you're talking about" from someone who makes wedding video's.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 4:35:37 pm

[Ben Holmes] "Unfortunately, tempers have now run so high on this forum that anyone trying to be objective or defending X is dismissed as a fanboy, or a paid shill. It's a shame, and does no credit to anyone. It would be easy to say that those on the other side of the debate were paid shills of AVID or Adobe. I do not - and note that no one 'defending' X has attempted to do so."

FWIW, I don't have any issues with anybody that likes FCPX or wants to be a fan boy etc. That's perfectly fine, and I see a lot of good in FCPX.

What I have a problem with is people telling those of us (with considerable experience) that our concerns are unwarranted (and no I'm not referring to you in any way).

It hasn't gone unnoticed that a lot of those people criticizing us don't have anywhere near the same level of experience. Just because someone doesn't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one.

Is FCPX going to fail? Of course not. Will it be great? Probably... the question is how long will we have to wait for that, and how many of you here will have the luxury of waiting? Everyone needs to answer that question themselves... no one else can tell you what to do.

Feel free to flame now...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Ben Holmes
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 4:45:35 pm

Mitch - I have no interest in flaming anyone, but any long term COW member can see this has got out of hand. I've had disagreements with many people here before - for example Walter Biscardi. We've always managed to have a frank and polite discussion.

I also take your point about experience. Unlike some, I've been working in broadcast for 15 years - I do very little else. I also have major workflow issues in X - I just think I'm more prepared to wait and see if they're solved. Actually, Apple today promised solutions to two of mine - audio outputs, and XML support. But still the bricks keep flying.

I'm not sure what brings me back here, given the quality of some of the discourse. I think I'm afraid that X will not be given a chance to grow. Underneath the surface, I think it night be worth a chance, even if Apple used up all my goodwill. Does that make me a fanboy?

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Mitch Ives
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 5:06:05 pm

I totally understand your point Ben, and I hope I was clear enough that my post had absolutely no reference to you. I agreed with your point, and just thought that it would be nice if this could always be a two way street (or is that bi-directional).

I have a wait-and-see attitude like you. Unfortunately, I do need two things added before we can really use it. After that I'll wait for the rest. Doesn't mean that I don't like what they've done.

FWIW, I will say that I never would have named this FCP anything. I would have called it iCut 1.0... "the future of editing", so everyone knew it was a radical departure and not in anyway an FCP upgrade. I also would not have discontinued FCS3, but then I have a business degree and all of this seems so obvious.

That's what Apple did when they brought out OSX, and we all understood.

Keep posting Ben, people are getting benefit from your efforts...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Matt Callac
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 5:24:53 pm

[Mitch Ives] " I would have called it iCut 1.0... "the future of editing", so everyone knew it was a radical departure and not in anyway an FCP upgrade. I also would not have discontinued FCS3, but then I have a business degree and all of this seems so obvious."

I totally agreee. Those are the two main misteps as I see it. If it weren't for the FCP name people wouldn't have had the expectations of all the features already being there.

And if they'd have kept FCS 3 on sale, there wouldn't be as many people yelling about apple not caring about the pro users.

-mattyc


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 6:30:25 pm

Agreed.

I think one big reason why everyone is thrown by this is that Apple had been a company that has well managed some very difficult transitions in the past.

The move from OS9 to OSX and the move from PPC to Intel. Both transitions took more than a year. Both allowed one to use older utilities whether it was "classic" mode or "Rosetta." Apple did nothing to create a transition period from FCS2009 to FCPX and FCPX, which is a great forward thinking foundation, is not even close to ready to replace FCS2009.

Without an assisted transition buffer with time for FCPX to mature, many are forced, by necessity to move away. Others, who are now distrustful of a business that did not allow for a transition will also move away because they are business risk averse for good reason. And the third group are those that simply do not like the new foundation and that's to be expected as people have their NLE preferences.

None of this discounts the potential that FCPX has. The question is does Apple want to or have a strategy to recover any of the above. They may or may not. Apple isn't likely to say but the FAQ they posted does show the immediate direction. Apple may feel that over time the industry itself will transition and that may be their long range target.

I personally think FCPX shows promise and that, understandably, is inadequate for many for practical reasons.



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Ben Holmes
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 5:52:08 pm

Mitch - totally clear, and all agreed.

I actually found going back to work, testing and planning for FCP jobs this year most instructive. A mature, stable and complete product is what we all need. Right now I have one I like - and the edits I do what not be done any quicker or better with another tool.

I think everyone will reach a point when they know they will stick or move on from FCP. I'm nowhere near that yet.

Ben

Edit Out Ltd
----------------------------
FCP Editor/Trainer/System Consultant
EVS/VT Supervisor for live broadcast
RED camera transfer/post
Independent Director/Producer

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/community/communitydetails/?UserStoryId=87...


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 4:01:48 pm

It's one thing to disagree with the folks at MacBreak Studio. It's another to accuse him/them of being Fanboys. They may like FCPX or at lest its potential.



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Paul Escamilla
Re: Apple Fanboys Anonymous
on Jun 29, 2011 at 10:32:25 pm

After about a week of reading, it seems pretty clear. Professional editors in professional environments have declared X dead on arrival. Consumers and prosumers who edit very simple videos like it. So is it a flop? Well, what are there more of? Consumers/Prosumers or professionals?

Its a success for the first group. A flop for the second. That's what we need to realize. A program can indeed be good AND bad at the same time. Just depends what you need it to do.


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