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BBC adopts FCP X for news editing

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Ronny Courtens
BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 11:40:26 am
Last Edited By Ronny Courtens on Sep 4, 2014 at 11:42:27 am

From the fcp.co home page:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1487-the-bbc-adopts-final-cut-pro-...

- Ronny


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 11:52:52 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Sep 4, 2014 at 11:53:09 am

Now that is NEWS.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 12:18:06 pm

Shoot.

What are we going to do now?


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 12:28:18 pm

Wait and see what Aindreas has to say I guess ... or somebody at Adobe?


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 12:32:39 pm

Aindreas broke down and bought a Creative Cloud subscription. Hell just froze over.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 1:22:48 pm

I'm actually in media city at the mo - I'll only say the obvious - engineering software decisions in the BBC aren't exactly monolithic, media city is going premiere, 99% of longform is staying avid, and a lot of people have been saying for a long time that X is perfect magazine show cutter. Sounds like it's finding a natural home.

As to the number of licenses - lets not forget the bruhaha over the BBC purchase of premiere CS licenses in the five figures back whenever that was.. If they were boxed that's a raiders of the lost ark closing shot scenario there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Scott Witthaus
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 1:35:36 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "and a lot of people have been saying for a long time that X is perfect magazine show cutter. Sounds like it's finding a natural home."

Exactly.

And for smaller station, fast cut and turn stuff, X is perfect there too. Horses for courses.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 2:34:20 pm

Well I know for sure I know I'm not alone in cutting quite slow turnaround long form stuff with it too.

It's not logical to suggest if it works well for one genre it can't for another.

The point isI think for those who have said it is not fit for purpose that is proving, slowly but surely, not to be the case.

At the end of the day the viewer doesn't care what software was used.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 2:54:54 pm

[James Ewart] "It's not logical to suggest if it works well for one genre it can't for another. "

I do think there's a reason for the development in news "first" (not that it's not happening elsewhere.
It's easier to take the "risk" on new workflows by experimenting on short form packages and, with each success, others can follow.

With long form narrative, the risks are much higher given the time and commitment to a given workflow for a project. FCPX does seem to be making isolated inroads in long form. From those beachheads, as those veterans work on other projects, its use will grow there as well. The nature of that market will mean slower growth for FCPX though.



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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 2:59:33 pm

For sure if you are going to start you have to start somewhere I absolutely agree. But I would imagine usage will progress from there if people WANT to use it for other genres.

Are they running Premiere on Macs or PCs a Media City please Aindreas?


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 3:36:25 pm

I've heard it's been used on "Focus" with Will Smith coming out early next year I believe. I suspect by the end of 2015 there be more Hollywood features cut on FCPX. It'll be a small number but it'll gain acceptance as a viable long form narrative solution.



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Ronny Courtens
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:49:42 pm

FCP X has been used successfully on Focus and on other major movies as well as on many independent feature films. You can find reports all over the internet. The feature film world is much, much larger than Hollywood (-:

- Ronny


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Lance Bachelder
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:19:15 pm

In the long run this is really bad news for Adobe and Avid because as FCPX proves itself viable in a wide variety of settings it kills the others at $299 per seat!

There will come a point where Editors won't have a choice because companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to save money and cut costs wherever possible. An Editor won't be able to specify a more expensive editing system just because they "like" it more. Any facility with a lot of seats would save a lot of money by using FCPX over the competition - the new "low cost" Avid annual maintenance plan is the total cost of FCPX!

I'm not saying all other systems will disappear because FCPX is cheaper, just that over time post departments will have to prove why they need more expensive systems especially as tape delivery wanes...

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 6, 2014 at 1:00:23 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "In the long run this is really bad news for Adobe and Avid because as FCPX proves itself viable in a wide variety of settings it kills the others at $299 per seat!"

You are making the assumption that the others are being sold at retail to large organizations. That's not the case. In fact, often, the unit price for the NLE software is far below Apple - especially when it's a larger package, like a full Avid installation with Isis, Interplay, etc.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 2:58:11 pm

oi oi - the wheels on the bus move deliberately - they're making the shift to CC towards the end of this year apparently? - all macs currently, all macs for the foreseeable. fcp.co might be overstating the case a bit in terms of X's future proposed expansion in the bbc - from some of the groups on facebook, the notion seems to be that broadly they are moving to premiere with specific deployments of X where it plays.

Its been mentioned a while back, but ITV studios is going premiere as well. plenty of room for everyone.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 4:22:05 pm

It just got a few degrees cooler. It will only freeze over if I subscribe and that will never happen!

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 4:26:34 pm

[David Mathis] "It just got a few degrees cooler. It will only freeze over if I subscribe and that will never happen!
"


I genuinely can't understand why people are denying themselves a suite of very useful tools, just because it's subscription only.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 4:37:22 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:17:38 pm

I was going to ask the same question. I read somewhere a scenario where one decided not to renew and therefore lost access to all the projects created thus far.

But that can't be true surely.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:09:11 pm

[James Ewart] "But that can't be true surely."

James,

It's true. You'd have to start a new subscription to open old projects.

Franz.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:15:58 pm

I don't quite understand how they do that. Some kind of ticking time bomb and then the software becomes inactive?

Deal breaker for me.


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:53:50 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:56:03 pm

James,

It's somewhat complex.

The CC subscription requires an internet connection. It "phones home" once a month to make sure you're a valid subscriber. If so, nothing changes. if you haven't paid or something goes wrong with validation, then nothing happens for a month. So it's not instant lockout at all.

IF you allow the account to go down, then you're "locked out" of your work if it was created with the new CC tools.

This is true of MOST of the suite.

They made an exception for the Lightroom customers, with some process where photographers can still access their Lightroom catalogs in limited ways even after a subscription termination. But the did not do that for the other aspects of the CC suite and specifically NOT for video editors.

So once you start editing in Premier, if you want to keep accessing your files indefinitely - the way things are set up currently - you have to subscribe forever if you want access to your work forever.

That's how I understand it at least. Others will surely correct me if I'm wrong.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:55:43 pm

[Bill Davis] " if you haven't paid or something goes wrong with validation, then nothing happens for a month. So it's not instant lockout at all."

I think you'll find it's 60 days


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:01:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "I think you'll find it's 60 days"

Thanks for the correction, Steve.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:22:02 pm

I don't think so. I think it's 30 for late pays etc and only 2 when you cancel your CC - found that out yesterday :) Good riddance CC.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:27:12 pm

From the Creative Cloud FAQ [link]:

Do I need to be online to access my desktop apps?

No, the desktop applications in Creative Cloud, such as Photoshop and Illustrator, are installed directly on your computer, so you don’t need an ongoing Internet connection to use them.

An Internet connection is required the first time you install and license your apps, but you can use the apps in offline mode with a valid software license. The desktop apps will attempt to validate your software licenses every 30 days.

Annual members can use the apps for up to 99 days in offline mode. Month-to-month members can use the software for up to 30 days in offline mode.


Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Richard Herd
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 10:02:45 pm

Can you force a validation?

Suppose I'm going on a remote shoot and I want Prelude as my DIT. Connected to wifi at the airport, validate the apps, close up and fly.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 10:55:34 pm

[Richard Herd] "Can you force a validation?

Suppose I'm going on a remote shoot and I want Prelude as my DIT. Connected to wifi at the airport, validate the apps, close up and fly.
"


That's a good question, though if you subscribe to a year of CC you have a 99 day grace period before the programs have to phone home again. Previously Adobe has said that they will handle extenuating circumstances on a case-by-case basis so if you know you are going to be working at the North Pole for a year w/out Internet give Adobe a call prior to the trip and you might be able to work something out.


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:32:33 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I don't think so. I think it's 30 for late pays etc and only 2 when you cancel your CC "

I've got a 60 day message on the odd occasion it couldn't phone home


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Lance Bachelder
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:00:47 pm

I was on monthly and always online - Walter posted the facts.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:59:38 pm

This seems to me to be business lunacy. I do not wish to be taken prisoner ... especially if there is a choice.

A very outdated concept in these times.

And strange for a company that has always put the needs of its customers first... looks good on paper I'm sure but it's a dictatorship no?


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:08:58 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:10:18 pm

[James Ewart] "A very outdated concept in these times."

I think actually, you're going to find that it's an extremely modern concept.

The big brains at huge corporations understand perfectly well that if you can get customers to accept an "op out" billing system where you can charge the customer even if you don't provide them with any actual product update, customer service, or even any customer interaction at all other than a persistent auto draw directly from their bank - it becomes a massive profit driver.

This is the natural progression of the worldwide move to all electronic banking. And the larger companies and the larger banks are just following in the footsteps of the insurance industry who's pushed for this from their customers for many years.

Set it and forget it and then you've got entropy working FOR the bank or corporation, rather than for the customer. Without that, you have to rely on marketing and advertising to drive sales. So each "sign up" comes with virtually guaranteed future earnings with "cost of sales' pushed to very close to zero.

This is what companies are required by law to do. Enhance shareholder value. They are NOT required by law to provide customer value - unless management believes that by doing so they can demonstrably add to the bottom line.

It's just how this stuff works. Period.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:54:36 pm

Sorry I disagree. it's what the accountants would like to be a "modern" concept.

If you don't give customers what they want you will always fail unless you have a monopoly.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:23:44 pm

Exactly. I did it for 2 years before I woke up. CS6 and CC. The longer it goes on, the deeper the hole and the bigger the stranglehold. We can yell and scream all we want, but the only thing that's going to make them change their mind is going to be their bottom line. If people keep on enabling, Adobe, then other companies will follow suit. And we're already seeing that elsewhere.

After jumping ship I've been using my CS5 suite. Still works. But I get files from others. I've already had to rent a single software license for one month just to open and convert some files. And guess what? I forgot to cancel that 1mo subscription before 30 days and of course, they tagged me for another un-needed month. And they're kind of counting on that. Of course, nobody sent me a reminder they're about to charge me. Just a notification that they HAD charged me.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:52:30 pm

[Bret Williams] "I've already had to rent a single software license for one month just to open and convert some files. And guess what? I forgot to cancel that 1mo subscription before 30 days and of course, they tagged me for another un-needed month. And they're kind of counting on that. Of course, nobody sent me a reminder they're about to charge me. Just a notification that they HAD charged me."

And the longer you're in, the more projects you accumulatively, the longer that can keep happening after you leave.



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Dennis Radeke
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 9, 2015 at 10:08:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "The CC subscription requires an internet connection."

Enterprise customers such as the BBC have other several options. You can find out some more details here: Creative Cloud for Enterprise


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 9, 2015 at 11:50:17 pm

Thanks for sharing. I am interested in Photoshop, what are the options?


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Dennis Radeke
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 10, 2015 at 9:58:33 am

Dave,

You have to be a large company and most of the options were outlined in the link.

To recap, there are three methods of buying, Individual, Teams and Enterprise. With each, the volumes (and minimums) increase as do the options and advantages.

Dennis


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 10, 2015 at 12:50:18 am

Not sure what licensing options were in play 9 months ago when this discussion originally occurred.

In ongoing contact with my friends like Ben King, a senior editor at the BBC, X is doing just fine in the parts of the wider BBC empire where it's deployed. As likely is Premier.

That they make accommodations in how their software is billed to "significant" customers as opposed to you and I is certainly nice for the larger customers. Be nice if you and I had the same flexibility.

And of course, as far as I know, Apple makes similar "ease of access" arrangements to enterprise wide adoption of X into multi-seat facilities.

Only real difference is that Apple sells permanent "one time purchase' seats - and Adobe
does not. At least to individuals and at least when it comes to Premier Pro.

FWIW

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 10, 2015 at 10:04:31 am

I am sure you are right in that all companies will offer different volume opportunities based on the BBC needs. Apple has a slew of terrific hardware in addition to software, lest we forget!

[Bill Davis] "Premier."

sigh...this is my pet peeve. It is Premiere Pro or at least Premiere. Can you help me out here? Thanks.


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 10, 2015 at 11:55:17 am

[Dennis Radeke] "[Bill Davis] "Premier."

sigh...this is my pet peeve. It is Premiere Pro or at least Premiere. Can you help me out here? Thanks.
"


Hold on Dennis, perhaps Bill was referring to the position of Premiere Pro :)

premier
ˈprɛmɪə,ˈpriː-/Submit
adjective
1.
first in importance, order, or position; leading.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 12:25:54 pm

;-) Quite possibly!


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 10, 2015 at 5:58:55 pm

My apologies, Dennis.

I'll pay more attention to that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:36:27 pm

No longer have access to the apps, no longer can open project files.
One might save xml files I believe so one can reconsstruct elsewhere.
One might subscribe for a month to access the projects on a case by case basis.

Adobe has made the business decision to make it difficult to leave. It's not the only way to manage subscriptions but it's what Adobe chose.



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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 4:50:59 pm

[Steve Connor] "I genuinely can't understand why people are denying themselves a suite of very useful tools, just because it's subscription only."

A. Because a large swath of the "suite of very useful tools" (as good as they are) are often totally unnecessary or unwanted for many editors. So is "suite access" a big deal if you only really use 3 of the programs?

B. Because you end up paying about 1.5 times the price PER YEAR - for every year of your career - for access to the editing excellence that you would have paid for just once to own in FCP X.

C. Because while X doesn't have every capability that PPro CC Cloud has, there's very little missing ( a thing that can be said the other direction as well to be fair) plus if some of us feel the that core of X - database driven editing - is the killer difference. Also, if you can't mentally give up fixed tracks - then you can't happily use X. But if you can, then you get a fresh new approach to editing that many of us really love.

and finally,
D. Subscription transfers power and standing in the transaction away from the buyer and towards the seller - something many of us are loath to accept.

That's me speaking for me. YMMV.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:17:19 pm

[Bill Davis] " Because you end up paying about 1.5 times the price PER YEAR - for every year of your career - for access to the editing excellence that you would have paid for just once to own in FCP X."

I like having the overlap, Premiere does some things better than FCPX and vice versa.

For me the cost is immaterial, I recovered the cost of the first years CC subscription within a month.

The magnetic timeline is great, but tracks have their use too, patching in PPro CC is much easier than it used to be and the trimming is better in CC.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:12:34 pm

You didn't recoup the price. You still paid the money. Money you could have had in your pocket instead. But if perchance you always updated to the very latest copy of the master collection every year, then it's about a break even. Without the option to discontinue paying. Even if you're not having a good year and figure you can get by with last years version- nope. People that didn't upgrade every single update to the full master collection have basically been faced with an enormous price increase from $400 every couple years for a production bundle (that would work fine forever on a supported system) to $600 every year forever to keep access to their files.

I also know quite a few friends and relatives that have either just PS or an old CS bundle that was serving them just fine. This kind of pricing completely prices them out of the market.


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tony west
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 4:35:22 am

Steve, what happens if internet connection is slow?

Does it slow down the edit?


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tony west
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 7:47:14 pm

I was just curios about this and being so dependent on the net with the edit.

For example, it's post season baseball and you are set up in the TV compound and on the truck wifi but so are most folks on the crew. They are all taxing the truck wifi jumping on it at the same time with their phones or what ever.

Its one thing to cut in your work place where you have full control, but out in the field..... just seems like that could be a problem.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 7:50:12 pm

[tony west] "I was just curios about this and being so dependent on the net with the edit."

I mentioned this above [link], but you don't have to be online in order to use Creative Cloud.

You must be online at least one a month in order to authorize the apps (this happens automatically without user interaction).

If Creative Cloud needs to authenticate and no Internet connection is available, it enters "offline mode" and shows the message Steve alluded to: a countdown showing the number of days left it will continue to work without re-authorizing.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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tony west
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 9:31:18 pm

[Walter Soyka] " it enters "offline mode" "

OK, that makes more sense : )


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 7:57:45 pm

[tony west] "For example, it's post season baseball and you are set up in the TV compound and on the truck wifi but so are most folks on the crew. They are all taxing the truck wifi jumping on it at the same time with their phones or what ever.

Its one thing to cut in your work place where you have full control, but out in the field..... just seems like that could be a problem."


Very valid point. Then there is always a chance the ISP could slow down the internet speed or any number technical glitches could be a major issue such as the network going down.

We have had issues due to weather and the equipment not being properly maintained. So many variables to contend with.

We so heavily rely on technology that we do not realize it until something stops working or those pesky glitch gremlins decide to party hard and wild.

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Paul Neumann
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 8:14:22 pm

What?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:17:21 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:18:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "
That's me speaking for me. YMMV."


So if you find yourself in a situation where, for whatever reason, the Creative Cloud suite is obviously the best tool for the job will you subscribe to it or refuse to out of pride/spite/bottom-line damaging moral high ground?

I think Steve's point is that some users say they will never, ever subscribe to CC no matter what and he questions the soundness of such an everlasting blanket statement. In the CC or Not forum I swear some of the people in there seem like they would rather close down their shop and stop editing forever rather than subscribe to CC. It's no different than the people that say they'll never, ever use FCP X because they are mad at Apple (and apparently always will be).

Just pick the best tool(s) for the job you can afford and go with it, IMO.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:24:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "So if you find yourself in a situation where, for whatever reason, the Creative Cloud suite is obviously the best tool for the job ..."

Andrew,

There seems to be a general assumption here that ownership model isn't part of the question of which tool is best.

Franz.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:42:09 pm

To put it another way... if you decide CC is no longer the best tool but still need to open old projects at some future date... you have to subscribe. There's also the risk that if you need a legacy version for some reason at that future point, it may not be there. That's entirely at Adobe's discretion.



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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:54:26 pm

[Craig Seeman] "There's also the risk that if you need a legacy version for some reason at that future point, it may not be there. That's entirely at Adobe's discretion."

They've promised to make legacy versions available to subscribers as updates occur, if they don't and people can't open their old projects even whilst subscribing to CC, then I imagine the user numbers will take a big hit. Same thing if they choose to increase the price to an unreasonable level.

If I choose to exit the Adobe subscription then If I need to access old projects I would bill the months subscription cost to the client.

I understand the objections and it would be better to have the option of perpetual licenses, but I want the apps on my Mac and I'm prepared to continue to pay to use them


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:00:58 pm

[Steve Connor] "I understand the objections and it would be better to have the option of perpetual licenses, but I want the apps on my Mac and I'm prepared to continue to pay to use them"

Steve, that's perfectly valid.

The critical thing is that there's a robust discussion of the implications of all the options so that people don't sign up and pay for something - either an owned program OR a perpetual rental option - and find out later that they did not fully understand all the ramifications of the choice they made.

Knowing the actual options and making the informed choice to adopt one or the other based on your personal circumstances is always valid.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:48:51 pm

[Steve Connor] "They've promised "

Untile they don't. They're in control and ultimately their business decision will prevail.
Any reasonable exit strategy would allow you to have a functional copy on your computer for as long as you need if you terminate the subscription or... if they terminate the availability of an application.

[Steve Connor] "If I choose to exit the Adobe subscription then If I need to access old projects I would bill the months subscription cost to the client."

And if this happens three years down the road because Resolve or Lightworks or even FCPX and fellow apps becomes the Suite of your dreams.... you'll be dragging the subscription on month after month until all the revisits to the old jobs go away. The more years in, the more years they bite you on the tail going out.



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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:55:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "[Steve Connor] "If I choose to exit the Adobe subscription then If I need to access old projects I would bill the months subscription cost to the client."

And if this happens three years down the road because Resolve or Lightworks or even FCPX and fellow apps becomes the Suite of your dreams.... you'll be dragging the subscription on month after month until all the revisits to the old jobs go away. The more years in, the more years they bite you on the tail going out."


In reality I rarely re-visit projects themselves it's mostly masters that get pulled back up, perhaps that's why I'm more comfortable with subscription.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:26:10 pm

[Steve Connor] "In reality I rarely re-visit projects themselves it's mostly masters that get pulled back up, perhaps that's why I'm more comfortable with subscription."

But this is actually a key to the problem. If your work fits, it's viable. It used to be if the software fits, it's viable (for now).



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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:35:20 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Andrew,

There seems to be a general assumption here that ownership model isn't part of the question of which tool is best.

Franz."


I don't think ownership model/cost plays into which tool is best. It might play into which tool I can afford, but the tool's performance and the tool's cost are two separate items. If I can afford to buy a Panasonic GH4 but not a RED EPIC that doesn't automatically make the GH4 a better camera, that just makes the GH4 the best camera I can afford. Then the question becomes should I guy a GH4 or rent the RED EPIC...

I see a lot of people talking about the potential cost of subscribing to CC from now until the day they die but that's just one possible outcome. Who says you have to use CC from now until the day you die? Why the assumption of a long term, monogamous relationship with your software (any software)? For example, last Nov I started a gig that had to be done on CC because that's what they used. That gig lasted until August which means I more than recouped my subscription price for CC. If they need more work done in the future I'll fire up my CC subscription again (maybe for a month, maybe for a year, it depends on how much work needs to be done) and the revenue earned will again more than cover the cost of the subscription. Flat out refusing to subscribe to CC would mean I left good money on the table plus the experience of working on a fun project with some great guys.

Will every situation be like the one I just described? No, but blanket statements about never using product X or Y unnecessarily limiting, IMO. Each situation is different and things change over time so I think keeping an open mind is the best policy.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:50:28 pm

[Andrew Kimery] " It might play into which tool I can afford"...


Andrew,

Affordability is definitely part of the question of best tool.

[Andrew Kimery] "Who says you have to use CC from now until the day you die? Why the assumption of a long term, monogamous relationship with your software (any software)?"

Different people have different needs. For some, questions of long term viability and access are important. That's why ownership vs. rental might be important - it's part of the question of how the tool is used, and the implications it has for future use.

[Andrew Kimery] " No, but blanket statements about never using product X or Y unnecessarily limiting, IMO. Each situation is different and things change over time so I think keeping an open mind is the best policy."

I think most people have an open mind to the scenario of Adobe changing their model. Things change over time and blanket statements are unnecessarily limiting.

Anyway it was Steve who mentioned someone "denying themselves" ... I'm not sure who he was talking about or how open minded they are.


Franz.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:21:20 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Affordability is definitely part of the question of best tool."

Why? What does the cost of the tool have to do with how effective the tool performs? Affordability is defiantly part of the question when it comes to what is the best tool I can afford, but the size of my wallet doesn't how well a specific tool does its job.


[Franz Bieberkopf] "Different people have different needs. For some, questions of long term viability and access are important. That's why ownership vs. rental might be important - it's part of the question of how the tool is used, and the implications it has for future use."

I totally, 100% agree which is why I mentioned both long term use and short term use in my previous post. Most of the knocks against subscribing to CC I read are from people not wanting to get tied up with CC from now until the day they day but that's not the one and only scenario available. There is the short term scenario I mentioned. There's also the scenario Bill Davis is in where he's subscribing to Lightroom for now because it's the best tool for what he needs but as soon as he can find an adequate non-Adobe solution he is going to hop on it.

Even for people that have built their post facility around Avid or FCP X I can imagine scenarios where they could need to subscribe to CC. For example, taking over a nearly completed project started on PPro where it would just be faster and easier to finish it on PPro than trying to rebuild it in another NLE.

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Anyway it was Steve who mentioned someone "denying themselves" ... I'm not sure who he was talking about or how open minded they are.
"


David Mathis said, "It just got a few degrees cooler. It will only freeze over if I subscribe and that will never happen!" and that's what kicked this whole thing off. I totally get people not thinking Tool ABC is the best tool for them. I don't get saying that they'll never, ever use Tool ABC. Just seems like you are setting yourself up to either eat your words or to make a bad decision just to try and save face.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:28:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "What does the cost of the tool have to do with how effective the tool performs"

Andrew,

"How effective a tool performs" is one aspect of "the best tool". Cost is another. "The best tool" is not defined solely in terms of how effectively it performs.

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't get saying that they'll never, ever use Tool ABC. Just seems like you are setting yourself up to either eat your words or to make a bad decision just to try and save face."

Well, if you're interested in David Mathis' thinking on this, why not ask him?

Franz.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:50:20 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Andrew,

"How effective a tool performs" is one aspect of "the best tool". Cost is another. "The best tool" is not defined solely in terms of how effectively it performs."


We'll have to agree to disagree on the semantics.

To me the best tool for the job and the best tool for the job that I can afford are separate, though possibly related, discussions.


[Franz Bieberkopf] "Well, if you're interested in David Mathis' thinking on this, why not ask him?"

I'm hopping he chimes in, but he hasn't come back to the thread yet.


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:15:24 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:16:18 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "[Franz Bieberkopf] "Well, if you're interested in David Mathis' thinking on this, why not ask him?"

I'm hopping he chimes in, but he hasn't come back to the thread yet."


My objections to the subscription only model is that there is, at this point, no clear exit strategy and paying for services or products I do not want or need. I am also concerned about an increase in price, certain products getting dropped or no longer supported. To me that is a legitimate concern. I doubt that would happen but why take on risk when it not necessary to do so?

I do have an open mind and would be willing to subscribe but at this point the current model does not meet my needs and the long term expense is something else I need to consider. In the event Adobe were to offer some type of buyout I would more than likely join.

Granted there are those that benefit by the subscription model. Adobe made a business decision, might not agree with it but that is the way the ball bounces. My decision to not subscribe is based on what meets my current needs and budget. Again, this is a business decision, nothing personal.

I hope I have not caused any issues here, my apologies in advance if I have done so.

camera operator | editor | production assistant



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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:17:36 pm

[David Mathis] "I do have an open mind and would be willing to subscribe but at this point the current model does not meet my needs and the long term expense is something else I need to consider. In the event Adobe were to offer some type of buyout I would more than likely join."

Thanks for following up David. As usual on the Internet, I think some of us took your hyperbole too literally.

[David Mathis] "I hope I have not caused any issues here, my apologies in advance if I have done so."

Issues? This is the most lively discussion in a while. We should buy you a beer!


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 11:29:27 pm

A beer sounds excellent right about now. :-)

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:37:24 pm

Apples to Apples, what if you had to pay a subscription every time you wanted to view any of the raw files you shot with that red epic? What if you were doing this so often it was more feasible just to buy a red epic. But they didn't allow purchases, just rentals?

I do t know about you but I'm constantly opening old projects to output for potential clients, web demos. Or just to organize my hard drive. After 2 years of renting CC and CS6 and then cutting the cord a mere 4 months ago, it's already annoying not having access to some of my AE projects. But there's no client to bill as some mentioned they'd do if they had to. Shouldn't the cost of our software already be built into the cost of our services anyway?

FWIW I have had to pay a monthly once already to open and convert some files. I'm certainly not a full boycott. But I'm doing all I can not to send Adobe a single dime I don't need to. I don't want to be an enabler any more than I have to. I'm using as an opportunity. If I need it, I'll pay. If at the end of the year I've spent more than $600 then perhaps I'll subscribe next time. But if I don't spend $600 then it's a win. I've been buying plugins with my extra money every month already. And not rental plugins either. :)


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:52:34 pm

Perhaps we should merge both the "or not" forums! Lively discussion on here, tumbleweeds over at the CC or Not forum,

Fact is that I want the CC tools in my toolbox more than I resent the rental model. I consider $600 a year (actually its more in the UK) a reasonable price to pay to have the option of using them, PPro is not my main NLE as my preferred choice on most projects is FCP X


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:00:19 pm

I felt the same for two years. Actually I changed my mind pretty early into CC, but Id already lost my right to change my mind. So I put my subscription up on eBay like I've done for many Adobe software packages in the past to recoup a large part of my original tangible investment. Oh, wait, can't sell my subscription on eBay. The cost got even higher. Looks like CC benefits Adobe in another small way by killing the perfectly legit used software market..

In every way I can conceive this is a higher cost to the customer and a win win for Adobe.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:15:28 pm

[Bret Williams] " Oh, wait, can't sell my subscription on eBay. The cost got even higher. Looks like CC benefits Adobe in another small way by killing the perfectly legit used software market."

You can't sell any of the applications, ebooks, movie or music downloads from Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, ect., either but that's a whole other can of worms. ;)

BTW, in a previous thread you talked about the difference between communicating and storytelling and I lost track of it but still wanted to tell you that I thought that was a really good post.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:30:55 pm

That's true and fair. Although it used to be one of my personal arguments for spending so much for the Master Collection CS5. I had the production bundle, and the web bundle. They allowed me to update the web bundle to CS5 Master Collection, and I sold the Production Bundle on eBay. Adobe transferred the license for me. Before getting on those bundles, I owned quite a few apps separately, like AE, PS, AI. I had a Macromedia bundle too. I think I upgraded Macromedia to web bundle and an Adone App to production bundle and sold the rest individually. My PS was so old that it had finally quit working. I think it was 4 or 5 versions old. Really, who needs the latest PS or Ai?

At least buy FCP X suite now works on 5 machines, and as far as we can tell is $300 for life. So maybe I can't sell it, but I haven't had to pay Apple a dime for 3 years unlike FCP legacy.

As for storytelling, there's not much to tell. I think it's a bizarre word that people have grabbed onto that doesn't describe what I do for the most part. I'm usually making corporate communication video. Sure there is some storytelling involved if it happens to be an interview and broll piece. But I'm not creating mind shattering documentaries, reality TV or drama. I only brought it up because it was said that we're all storytellers as editors as a somewhat blanket statement.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 9:55:23 pm

[Bret Williams] " Really, who needs the latest PS or Ai? "

I think that was a part of Adobe's problem (the second hand market and people waiting multiple generations to upgrade). With CS5 I think they changed their upgrade plan so that if you skipped a release you had to pay full price again. The video game market where publishers are either trying to get a piece of the used game market or trying to find a way to kill it.


[Bret Williams] "At least buy FCP X suite now works on 5 machines, and as far as we can tell is $300 for life. So maybe I can't sell it, but I haven't had to pay Apple a dime for 3 years unlike FCP legacy."

On a related note, can older versions of FCP X be downloaded? I haven't upgraded to Mavericks and I couldn't find a way on the App Store to download the previous version of X that doesn't require Mavericks.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 2:23:02 am

They didn't change anything. It's always been tiered. For example my Master Collection CS5 would cost more to upgrade to CS6 Master Collection tha the CS 5.5 Master Collection. And sometimes it would be the same for an older collection. IOW it was cheaper if you had the most recent collection, and a little more expensive if your collection was a couple versions old, and at some point there wasn't an upgrade available. But you could certainly skip a couple versions and still upgrade for less than buying every version.

Not sure if you can download pre-mavericks FCP X. Why can't you upgrade to Mavericks? I even hacked my 2006 MP to run it. And it's limit was Lion.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 3:14:39 am

[Bret Williams] ". It's always been tiered. For example my Master Collection CS5 would cost more to upgrade to CS6 Master Collection tha the CS 5.5 Master Collection."

The tiering is what they got rid of. If you want an upgrade discount for CS6 you have to own CS5 (or CS5.5 which was an unusual, mid-cycle release). If you want to go from CS4 to CS6 you have to pay full retail. Prior to this policy change upgrade pricing was available back three versions so someone with CS3 could still upgrade to CS6 without having to pay full price.

[Bret Williams] "Not sure if you can download pre-mavericks FCP X."

Up until 10.9.3 Mavericks had GPU driver issues that broke GPU acceleration in PPro and Resolve plus there was nothing 'must have' for me in it so I had no compelling reason to upgrade.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 3:26:59 am

That didn't sound right so I looked it up. There was upgrade pricing to CS6 from CS3 and CS4 throughout 2012. They obviously changed that on January 1 2013 because they knew what they were about to do with CC. They weren't going to offer a cheap intro CC plan to anyone that hadn't upgraded in 4 years, since there wouldn't really be much of a tier to offer. What, $47 a mo instead of $50? They probably did people a service by enticing many to upgrade to the box set of CS6.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 4:20:13 am

[Bret Williams] "That didn't sound right so I looked it up. There was upgrade pricing to CS6 from CS3 and CS4 throughout 2012. "

So I just looked it up again and apparently in 2011 Adobe announced the 'old' upgrade policy was going away but there was so much backlash that they backpedaled. I wasn't much of an Adobe user back then so I heard about the change in policy but not about the backpedal.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 4:23:10 am

Did this new Adobe subscription model appear after the poorly managed FCPX launch?

Was it a "play" to bury FCP do you think? "You've got to come over to us and then we are going to own you" kind of a deal?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 3:52:01 pm

[James Ewart] "Did this new Adobe subscription model appear after the poorly managed FCPX launch?

Was it a "play" to bury FCP do you think? "You've got to come over to us and then we are going to own you" kind of a deal?"


The subscription option first appeared in 2011, but a company the size of Adobe can't fundamentally change its business model overnight so I'd assume the groundwork for it started a couple years before that. The timing between it and FCP X was just a coincidence.

The move to subscription only was an outright disaster timing wise (some would say on the same level as Apple's horrible launch of X) as many people were just getting warmed up to the idea of PPro as their FCP7 replacement the demise of a perpetual license option turned a lot of people off. Add in Avid's financial problems and 2011-2013 was like a comedy of errors by the big three A's.


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Andrew Johnstone
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 9, 2015 at 6:29:24 am

This thread seems to have got way off topic from the original post about BBC using FCPX! For what it is worth I have talked FCPX with my editor at BBC and he mentioned that they were trialling it in news, but I haave not heard that features In BBC regions) were going go adopt it. They still use FCP7.

I have jumped in at the point about GPU issues for Premiere Pro and Resolve. This is what I am struggling with right now and it has been mentioned on several threads including Here and on the Adobe forums.

I am running Mountain Lion and PP has just stared misbehaving. I am not fond of the subscription model as unless I am actually cutting a film, I don't need the software every day. I still run CS6 which has been, until this week, my replacement system for FCP7 and I have been very happy with it. However, the glitching (Along with multiple crashes) issue has crippled my project and I have had to rebuild the edit from an XML file in FCP7.

This brings in the massive issue of support. If either of these apps (PP or FCPX) are going to be rolled out across organisations like the BBC or ITV, they will need to be rock solid. The issue such as the glithces in PP because of the CUDA driver issue (see thread above) will cause major chaos if they are not resolved quickly - and judging from the threads on this matter they have not been. I suspect that the BBC is just being very cautious. It knows that FCP7 just works - all be it slowly.

The other issue I am sure BBC is weighing up, like many of us is whether or not they can trust the software company. Apple dumped 1000's of broadcast edit studio clients in the pooh when they dropped FCP7. How do we know that FCPX will not go the same way? At least Adobe is a dedicated software company, but having said that the speed at which they have addressed this CUDA bug does not inspire confidence.

Andy Johnstone
Wild Dog Limited
film & multimedia production
http://www.wilddogworld.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 9, 2015 at 3:17:13 pm

[Andrew Johnstone] "I am running Mountain Lion and PP has just stared misbehaving...
...This brings in the massive issue of support. If either of these apps (PP or FCPX) are going to be rolled out across organisations like the BBC or ITV, they will need to be rock solid."


In order to be rock solid you have to be on the latest OS. That's part of the rub with frequent software updates via the cloud or other means. The latest fixes also require the latest OS versions. This tends to be a nightmare in large enterprise environments.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 9, 2015 at 3:20:20 pm

[Andrew Johnstone] "Apple dumped 1000's of broadcast edit studio clients in the pooh when they dropped FCP7. How do we know that FCPX will not go the same way?"

And Avid hit some financial/internal problems which caused them to get delisted from NASDAQ for about a year and Adobe, to some, made a show stopping move by going subscription only. No one knows the future and, IMO, there's no reason these days to put all your eggs in one basket. Sure, 10 years ago it was difficult (if even possible in some cases) to have multiple NLEs inhabiting the same machine, but these days they all play pretty nice together.

[Andrew Johnstone] "At least Adobe is a dedicated software company, but having said that the speed at which they have addressed this CUDA bug does not inspire confidence."

AFAIK the CUDA problem isn't Adobe's to fix. It's a driver problem so that means Nvidia, and possibly Apple, has to address it. Some users are also having problems running GPU accelerated apps like Resolve and PPro on the new Mac Pros (which have AMD, not Nvidia GPUs).


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David Howard
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 11, 2014 at 3:08:57 am

I use FCPX, really like it.

Redefined Media

Video Production Sydney


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Chris Harlan
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 6, 2014 at 5:01:44 pm

Do you do the E-Bay thang when you want to change phone services too? Or a gym membership? My current subscription is way cheeper than what I pay for both of those. If I go to full price it will STILL be cheeper than those. Considerably so.


Look, I get that you don't like the model. Its not my favorite, either. But Adobe's not going to change their mind, and this is getting a little broken-recordy.


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:34:54 pm

[Steve Connor] "Perhaps we should merge both the "or not" forums! Lively discussion on here, tumbleweeds over at the CC or Not forum,"

It's important to consider why (I suspect) this is happening here under BBC adopts FCPX. It's possible, over time, one may want to switch... and even switch again to yet another down the road. It's not too difficult to do that on any NLE or Suite except Adobe. You can maintain the legacy apps for as long as you need. Adobe always requires a payment to revisit something. That price may go up. The terms may change. The app availability can be pulled.



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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 9:48:49 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's important to consider why (I suspect) this is happening here under BBC adopts FCPX. It's possible, over time, one may want to switch... and even switch again to yet another down the road. It's not too difficult to do that on any NLE or Suite except Adobe. You can maintain the legacy apps for as long as you need. Adobe always requires a payment to revisit something. That price may go up. The terms may change. The app availability can be pulled.
"


It would be interesting to learn more about why BBC News went with FCP X and and CNN went with Adobe.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 8:09:58 pm

[Bret Williams] "Apples to Apples, what if you had to pay a subscription every time you wanted to view any of the raw files you shot with that red epic? What if you were doing this so often it was more feasible just to buy a red epic. But they didn't allow purchases, just rentals?"

Yet this is basically how much of 'hollywood' and TV networks have functioned for decades (and continue to do so today). If a big production company is doing a new TV show they'll create a new LCC just for that show. The LLC will rent everything from office space to production equipment to edit bays and after the last deliverable has been shipped off the whole tribe disbands and it's like the company never existed. If pickups need to be shot or an edit needs to get fixed then it's back to a rental house to get the gear you need. This isn't always the case, but it seems to hold true for anything that runs 'seasonally' (as opposed to say a talk show or game show that has new episodes daily almost year round).

It's only been in the last 15-20 years (with advent of the digital revolution) that so many people people, especially editors, started owning their tools of the trade outright. Panavision film cameras were considered some of the best (if not the best) and they were rental only. Avid's could be bought but at six figures plus very few individuals thought it was a good investment to outright buy one.

I have a couple friends that rent their production gear out (medium range stuff) so there's certainly still a market for it (at least in Los Angeles). Post is a little different because most people already have computers and most people, when strapped for cash, can figure out a way to acquire for free whatever software they need. If NLEs were big, separate systems (like a linear bay or old Avid's that required special hardware to work) then I think there would be a bigger market for NLE rentals too.


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Richard Herd
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 8, 2014 at 11:26:47 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Who says you have to use CC from now until the day you die? "

A: This guy, and then for quite some time after that. You can save money :) http://www.wimp.com/numbersinfinity/


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 8, 2014 at 11:40:11 pm

[Richard Herd] "A: This guy, and then for quite some time after that. You can save money :) http://www.wimp.com/numbersinfinity/
"


Wow. I'm not quite sure what to do with that information. lol


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:47:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "So if you find yourself in a situation where, for whatever reason, the Creative Cloud suite is obviously the best tool for the job will you subscribe to it or refuse to out of pride/spite/bottom-line damaging moral high ground?"

I've already answered that elsewhere. I have a CC Lightroom bundle subscription. Actually I have TWO of them due to the cock-up of the servers being down when I tried to subscribe originally and the billing system entering me twice. (I have to get that sorted out, thanks for reminding me - paying $20 a month for a $10 service is kinda silly.)

That said, you can bet that the moment I can see a non-subscription alternative that comes close (APPLE, Hurry with Photos and make it GREAT!), I'm gonna get the pliers out and remove that credit card fishhook asap.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:24:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "I've already answered that elsewhere. I have a CC Lightroom bundle subscription. Actually I have TWO of them due to the cock-up of the servers being down when I tried to subscribe originally and the billing system entering me twice. (I have to get that sorted out, thanks for reminding me - paying $20 a month for a $10 service is kinda silly.)"

Ah, yer right Bill. I forgot about the tails of your Lightroom, uh, experience. ;)


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Paul Neumann
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:16:58 pm

FCPX, Motion, Compressor, Logic Pro X, Resolve = $1600. That's your Premiere, After Effects, Media Encoder, Speedgrade comparison line. And you get Photoshop, Illustrator, Lightroom, InDesign as well as others that maybe you use and maybe you don't. Whatever the case at $600 a year that's 2.66 years of all those tools compared to the scope of what you get from Apple/BlackMagic only.


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:25:48 pm

Conversely, if you don't need grading and audio above what's already built into the X "suite" then the fair comparison toolset price drops to $399 on the Apple side. And there are legions of editors for whom this is plenty to do a very wide range of professional work from ENG to Corporate and beyond.

And don't forget Resolve Lite is free. And a nice chunk of the Logic code is already in X via the audio filters.

So that $1600 is, perhaps a bit of a screwy comparison.

The big difference is that if you want to play with Adobe you have two prix fix options. Photo subscription and Full subscription.

If you want to play with Apple, you buy just what you actually need. Once.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:35:15 pm

I agree - throwing Resolve at a grand into the mix is silly. Fact is with SliceX, I see no need to ever use Resolve again. I like the color tools, scopes and accurate delivery of FCPX and with SliceX I can power window away if needed. Also the built in FX, transitions etc in FCPX are far more useful than than what's included in Premiere. I no longer need Colorista etc in FCPX and the variety of 3rd party FX etc for FCPX at affordable prices is stronger too.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 7:49:28 pm

Even at $1600, I'd rather own. That's exactly the kind of thinking that makes people lease cars or pay for extended warranties or jump on predatory loans. Our entire economy is going down this voluntary enslavement road and I do everything I can not to be an enabler. I don't buy extended warranties or lease new cars. I pay my CC in full every month. I couldnt pay for CC another year and feel right about it. It's not totally about the cost. It's more about the shift of power. Some will never quite feel the same way about it.


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Bret Williams
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 6:55:00 pm

Drink! :)


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 2:01:42 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on May 11, 2015 at 2:03:02 pm

[Bill Davis] "D. Subscription transfers power and standing in the transaction away from the buyer and towards the seller - something many of us are loath to accept. "

The concept to me is more like being taken prisoner. I absolutely hate it. What if I have an old computer that cannot handle the last update one day? I have to throw my computer away? With FCP I can leave Legacy sitting on an old machine for old projects if I want to. In fact I do.

I know little about American law but am surprised your anti trust laws do not make the practice illegal.

It's a horrible "un American" concept to me.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 2:34:49 pm

[James Ewart] "The concept to me is more like being taken prisoner. I absolutely hate it. What if I have an old computer that cannot handle the last update one day? I have to throw my computer away? With FCP I can leave Legacy sitting on an old machine for old projects if I want to. In fact I do. "

Creative Cloud does not push updates. If you wish to stay on an older version, you are free to do so.


[James Ewart] "It's a horrible "un American" concept to me."

I rather like that we are generally free to run our businesses as we see fit, instead of having a business model imposed on us by the government.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 2:47:10 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on May 11, 2015 at 2:47:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I rather like that we are generally free to run our businesses as we see fit, instead of having a business model imposed on us by the government."

indeed ... irrespective of any negative impact it may have on your loyal customers.

I seem to recall in the UK you could not buy Chapman dollies but in the USA this was deemed to be unfair practice (anti trust laws) and they had to sell them as well as rent them. So I thought the same law would apply for Adobe and their software

Clearly not.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 3:03:19 pm

[James Ewart] "indeed ... irrespective of any negative impact it may have on your loyal customers."

Well... I was a loyal Adobe customer and I think that Creative Cloud has had a positive impact on me. And I wasn't sold on the subscription-only concept at first, initially preferring the idea of a perpetual license plus maintenance.

I just really didn't get the "un-American" line. It's the exception rather than the rule that the U.S. government puts itself in the position of arbiter of customer impact of business decisions.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 3:25:50 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I just really didn't get the "un-American" line. It's the exception rather than the rule that the U.S. government puts itself in the position of arbiter of customer impact of business decisions."

I apologise if the line caused offence. I have always felt that America stood for free and fair competition. And choice. It's a good job the subscription model has worked out for you. You pretty much had to get over it though no? if you were already an long time Adobe customer you had to bite the bullet.

Can you imagine if Microsoft did the same thing and made it subscription only? I know one has the option of renting Office, but could they insist and stop selling altogether? I guess it's just around the corner...


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 3:53:43 pm

[James Ewart] "Can you imagine if Microsoft did the same thing and made it subscription only? I know one has the option of renting Office, but could they insist and stop selling altogether? I guess it's just around the corner..."

Hold on to your hats: http://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2015/05/08/windows-10-to-be-last-...


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 5:06:10 pm

[James Ewart] "I apologise if the line caused offence. I have always felt that America stood for free and fair competition. And choice. It's a good job the subscription model has worked out for you. You pretty much had to get over it though no? if you were already an long time Adobe customer you had to bite the bullet. "

Not at all, James! No offense taken. I just think a company choosing to only offer their products via subscription fits perfectly in line with the idea of free competition and choice. If they were compelled to only sell their product a specific way, that to me would be restricted competition and choice. But I certainly didn't mean for this to get political.

The fairness issue is certainly open for debate. If you think that Adobe has an illegal monopoly, then their business practices should certainly fall under greater scrutiny.

But I don't think that CC is the clear-cut case of abusing their customers that some here make it out to be. If CC only ever turns out to be a way to charge more for CS, then it's a bum deal. I think that delivering this software as a service instead as a product allows for some real innovation off the desktop, particularly in the areas of mobility and social, which we are just beginning to see with things like Shape and Candy.

Adobe have also done a great job of delivering updates to their products since they've moved to CC, and as a CC user, it has been outstanding to know that I can easily interoperate with other users without having to worry what version they're on, because everyone on CC has access to the current software and because new major versions install alongside older ones.

Did I have to stay on Adobe? Not necessarily -- there are other products I could choose to switch to. In fact, there are a few folks on the Creative Cloud Or Not: The Debate forum who are doing just that. They stayed on their perpetual licenses of Creative Suite for a bit and are migrating to other applications.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 5:26:30 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Did I have to stay on Adobe? Not necessarily -- there are other products I could choose to switch to. In fact, there are a few folks on the Creative Cloud Or Not: The Debate forum who are doing just that. They stayed on their perpetual licenses of Creative Suite for a bit and are migrating to other applications."

Yes but how easy to make that switch? it's a pain is it not? Especially if you are a bigger company (I'm not) If you have always used Adobe Premiere and know it inside out and are forced down this route then it could be annoying.

Playing my own devil's advocate for a moment there are plenty of things I pay for monthly so why shouldn't my editing software be one of them?

But I still think there's something a bit dark cynical about the practice. They are effectively insuring themselves against their software not being very good for a while. Suddenly they are not living or dying by the quality of their product because they've got you by the short and curlies.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 5:55:42 pm

[James Ewart] "They are effectively insuring themselves against their software not being very good for a while. Suddenly they are not living or dying by the quality of their product because they've got you by the short and curlies."

How are they not living or dying by the quality of their product anymore? Especially in the NLE market where they are competing with Avid and Apple (and possibly with BM if Resolve becomes a better NLE). How many other forms of revenue does Adobe have? Apple makes like 80% of hits revenue from mobile device sales and BM is famous for giving way Resolve (because it only works with BM I/O cards).

Back in the early/mid 2000's Avid managed to coast even though they didn't offer a subscription at the time. Why? Because they had market dominance which is really having people by the short and curlies. Once FCP started becoming a viable option people that had put 10's, if not 100's, of thousands of dollars into Avid-centric workflows jumped ship. Many times these systems were either leased or sold off to help fund the transition so there was no easy way to go back to old projects. If they needed to open up an Avid project they'd have to rent an Avid to do it.

If people that dropped that kind of cash for Avid managed to jump ship then people dropping a fraction of that for Creative Cloud shouldn't have any problem jumping ship either if they so choose.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 6:02:57 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "How are they not living or dying by the quality of their product anymore? Especially in the NLE market where they are competing with Avid and Apple (and possibly with BM if Resolve becomes a better NLE). "

Because even if their software becomes crap overnight you will still have to pay your subscription to open all your previous projects. That's at least two years insurance for them I reckon. So they've got you. Why else would they do it? You think it's for your benefit or theirs?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 6:46:15 pm

[James Ewart] "That's at least two years insurance for them I reckon. "

Maybe for you, but It really depends on each individual's/company's situation doesn't it? I think I've stopped and started CC twice in the last 2 years as projects I'm using it one wrap up, and new ones have started up. I recently cut an project on Avid and the producer went the subscription route because paying for a few months of subscription (all that was needed for the project) was cheaper than going w/the perpetual license. PPro also exports XMLs so it is possible to get edits into other NLEs. I'm currently cutting a project in PPro but if I wanted to I could kick out an XML and be up and running in another NLE pretty quickly.

Everyone is different, but it's hard for me to see $600/yr (assuming full price) as so expensive that it prohibits people who make their living in this industry from leaving Adobe. Lack of competition (possibly coupled with propriety workflows) is what locks people in, IMO.


[James Ewart] "Why else would they do it? You think it's for your benefit or theirs?"

All companies do things for their own benefit though. Even if it's phrased as for the customer's benefit the company hopes that by doing things 'for the customer' that that will in turn get them more customers. X isn't $300 (w/no paid upgrades to date) because it's good for the customer (or the industry as a whole), it's $300 because it's good reason for people to keep buying Macs.

Just speaking for myself, but after nearly 15 years of being Mac-centric I'm feeling much more hemmed in by Apple than I am by Adobe. I can turn Adobe CC on/off like a facet and it's not a big deal to me, but dropping in a Windows box would certainly be a disruption to some parts of my workflow even if it would be a boon to others.


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:51:49 am

[Andrew Kimery] "All companies do things for their own benefit though."

I kind of disagree with this. At the heart of a lot of big companies' philosophy is putting their customers first. That's how they get the edge on the competition. But the NLE game is not really a free and open market in the way that car manufacturers have to slug it out, which is why I believe Governments should take a look at what they are doing. It's not a monopoly but it's not far off is it?

I absolutely get that the future is probably subscription based. That's what happens with our mobile phones, our on demand TV etc etc and I guess they like the look of that business model and realised it makes their customers "stickier".

I have yet to read one argument that explains how the subscription based model is better for customers. Until now. You are the first. If people start dipping in and out of their subscriptions as the need arises according to what jobs they've got on I can see some advantage. But if enough people do it then Adobe will surely start insisting on a one year minimum contract. Then maybe two years. How far can they go with this before somebody calls foul?

If Adobe believed that monthly subscriptions were better for their customers, they would still offer the product for sale outright and let the consumers choose.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 1:48:57 pm

[James Ewart] "But the NLE game is not really a free and open market in the way that car manufacturers have to slug it out, which is why I believe Governments should take a look at what they are doing. It's not a monopoly but it's not far off is it?"

We do have Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Avid, Blackmagic Design, and Sony all publishing major professionally-oriented NLEs for a pretty niche market. I think that's actually some pretty healthy competition!



[James Ewart] "I have yet to read one argument that explains how the subscription based model is better for customers. Until now."

For me, this is simple. Subscription is about so much more than changing how I pay for the old Creative Suite. It's about recognizing how the challenges we face in the creative process are changing, and responding to that.

Subscription lets you add a service layer. My business runs on Google for Work, Dropbox, Frame.io, Slack, and Teamwork Projects. These are all cloud services, offering connective functionality I can't get from desktop applications. Why should my primary creative apps remain so strictly desktop-oriented?

When Creative Suite first launched, it was a new way to buy the set of standalone Adobe products, but more importantly, it was the beginning of a big development effort to integrate what had been completely separate and walled-off applications.

Now we're there with CC. By going all-in on subscription, Adobe is able to develop software-plus-service solutions and address mobility and collaborative issues that can't be solved on the desktop alone. We're seeing the first fruits of that shifted development capability now, with things like Creative Cloud's Libraries, and with mobile apps like Shape and Project Candy.

So how is the subscription model better for customers? By solving problems no one else can. Creative Cloud and its thesis of software-plus-service is a huge innovation in our space, and with it, Adobe is uniquely positioned to tackle a set of process-oriented problems.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 2:31:24 pm

[Walter Soyka] "We do have Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Avid, Blackmagic Design, and Sony all publishing major professionally-oriented NLEs for a pretty niche market. I think that's actually some pretty healthy competition!"

Plus Grass Valley (Edius), EditShare (Lightworks) and Quantel.

Puleez.... Let's keep the govt out of this! That's one way to really muck up the works. Simply take a look at the BBC to see what happens.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 2:41:34 pm

Not sure the Beeb stands as a good reason to keep the govt out of anything. Highest rated channel in the UK, worldwide sales and it's free of advertising. BBC iPlayer is standard by which other TV web players are compared. All enabled by centralised funding not dependant on advertising or sponsorship. Current govt likely to curb that though, mainly at behest of your very own R.Murdoch.

Their post production decisions aren't always the best though - but that is also true of commercial stations the world over.



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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 2:42:48 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Simply take a look at the BBC to see what happens."

I would argue that the BBC is still one of the the finest broadcasting organisations in the world and suffers a lot less meddling than many other broadcasters who roll over for their proprietors, shareholders and advertisers on a regular basis.

Perhaps I have a different perspective from across the pond but I tend to believe Government has a role to play in protecting the interests of its citizens from shabby practice by big business.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 4:27:25 pm

[James Ewart] "Perhaps I have a different perspective from across the pond but I tend to believe Government has a role to play in protecting the interests of its citizens from shabby practice by big business."

But what makes moving to subscription only and changing a development model shabby practice?

This can actually offer real value to customers as I tried to touch on above in a way that a straight product sale cannot. I want to see where that goes!

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 4:57:35 pm

[James Ewart] "I would argue that the BBC is still one of the the finest broadcasting organisations in the world"

In many ways I would agree, however, my comment was based on the mismanagement of the Digital Media Initiative.

[James Ewart] "but I tend to believe Government has a role to play in protecting the interests of its citizens from shabby practice by big business."

There is certainly a role for govt, however, the view of many on this side, is that govt often engages in its own equally shabby practices, without the marketplace to correct them.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 4:58:45 pm

[James Ewart] "I would argue that the BBC is still one of the the finest broadcasting organisations in the world"

In many ways I would agree, however, my comment was based on the mismanagement of the Digital Media Initiative.

[James Ewart] "but I tend to believe Government has a role to play ...."

There is certainly a role for government, however, the view of many on this side, is that government often engages in its own equally questionable practices, without the marketplace to correct them.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 5:12:30 pm

[Oliver Peters] "In many ways I would agree, however, my comment was based on the mismanagement of the Digital Media Initiative."

Ah yes ell that's quite a specific point thanks for clarifying but I don't think that was due to government interference was it? Nobody really knew how things wee going to pan out and they made mistakes.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 5:29:48 pm

[James Ewart] " Nobody really knew how things wee going to pan out and they made mistakes."

Except they made that mistake with your tax dollars (license fee).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 5:48:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[James Ewart] " Nobody really knew how things wee going to pan out and they made mistakes."

Except they made that mistake with your tax dollars (license fee)."


Yes, but the standard that nobody can risk tax dollars unless it's a sure thing is also not a very good process, IMO?

If you don't take risk, you don't grow. In fact, one of my best business lessons came from abject failure. Years ago, I chaired an event for a local charity and hired a 15' outdoor LED sign to promote the event - thinking that because the event was adjacent to a local freeway - we'd WAY more than pay for the sign rental with extra ticket sales. Unfortunately, when the sign arrived and was lit up, it was simply too small to be seen from the freeway.

Totally my fault. And I wasted $3k of the charities money doing it. I also learned a HUGE lesson. And thankfully the overall event was a success, but a smaller one than it should have been.

Nothing teaches like trying and failing.

And government is not immune to that.

Sure we want the risk as best managed as possible. But that can be awfully difficult sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:01:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "Now we can't. Not if someone accepts ACH Rental Terms. Then it's between the vendor the company and some form of outside "binding arbitration." which essentially removes the transaction from the scrutiny of the legal system and absolutely abrogates traditional consumer rights, in my view. "

And you still have the ability to walk away from Adobe and never use them again. If Adobe gets heavy handed, the market moves away from them. There are other choices. But, at the moment the market favors Adobe. Not because you or I choose to use them, but rather because we have clients that insist on us using them by supplying and asking for files in Adobe's formats (Photoshop, Illustrator, AE, etc.). If you don't like the rental model, govt intervention is not the answer. Although rules related to credit card usage and billing might be a different story and certainly a valid point.

But let's take a slightly different hypothetical, since we've added the concept of government rules or legislation into the picture. What IF the government decided that all software is a service and not a product? And as a service, all software should ONLY be sold via the rental model? My guess would be that the argument would swing in a completely different direction.

And finally, remember that it is in many ways due to govt intervention in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley that companies have embraced the subscription approach. So be careful what you wish for, ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 8:49:08 pm

[Oliver Peters] "And you still have the ability to walk away from Adobe and never use them again."

With all file level access to all the work you've done while inside their system abandoned!!! Who treats loyal decades long customers like that? Thats the bone of contention. They couldn't risk file hostage taking (my pejorative term, admittedly) for their Photographers believe they knew those guys would bolt for Capture One and other solutions en mass. But they were willing to throw their video editors under the bus in order for a chance lock them into Premier - since the perception was that it was the only way for video editors to get a FCP Legacy replacement. Hardball business decision, Period. But hardball business of a sort I don't appreciate.

And its sad, because it's a good product for those who want to carry forward with traditional-style non-magnetic editing - and it deserves a long life serving that constituency.

Many, MANY others mileage will vary greatly. And I understand that. But I can't find a single compelling reason they have force fed their customers a rental only video model otherwise. Not when they didn't similarly stick their Photo legions with the same. They saw a market opportunity - and saw it not as merely a chance to "attract" customers, but rather a opportunity to lock them down for the future as well.

Its a good program from what I hear, so right now the handcuffs are very comfortable. But they are handcuffs none the less. And the problem with handcuffs is that it's pretty hard to get out of them, and really, REALLY tempting for whoever is in charge to ratchet them down tighter once they are in place.

Time will tell.

My 2 cents. And my personal view only.

As to the Sarbanes-Oxley silliness, I don't really see a whole lot of altered corporate practice as a result, do you? Where's the stream of executives going to jail for financial shenanigans? Or do you feel that the maintenance of corporate profits (at record levels!) were because really, nobody at the executive suite level was manipulating the markets via tame regulators and multi-million dollar lobbying?

SOX was kinda a joke in retrospect, wasn't it? We've spent a decade under the new rules, yet the number of executive punishments effectively doled out is what? Oh yeah, ZERO. And yet, corporate profit levels are exactly the same or higher then they were when many companies were clearly cooking the books. So either NOBODY was doing any market manipulation originally (hard to believe when they tell us that the entire economy was teetering on the brink of collapse at the end of the GWBush era -OR perhaps, the financial sharpies saw the melt down as a way to spin a nice yarn. RENTAL will solve the problems. Just let us fishhook directly into consumers bank accounts (with effective SELLER risk abatement - of course!) and everything will be better for the poor CONSUMERS don't you know!'

Want to go shopping for swamp land with me as well?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 10:32:29 pm

[Bill Davis] "With all file level access to all the work you've done while inside their system abandoned!!! Who treats loyal decades long customers like that? "

Or, you simply renew for a month or two to get their revisions done. And they even benefit from you having the current version of the software at a fraction of the cost that you used to pay for upgrades.

[Bill Davis] "SOX was kinda a joke in retrospect, wasn't it?"

I'm not going to get bogged down in politics, but that's exactly my point about government intervention. It's often useless, except to create more unnecessary paperwork that hurts small businesses.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 11:47:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "As to the Sarbanes-Oxley silliness, I don't really see a whole lot of altered corporate practice as a result, do you? "

It's altered Apple's and Adobe's practices and most likely Avid's as well. I'm sure it's altered other companies too. Has there been a repeat of Enron? W/o laws people will keep doing the same thing but if you pass a law, and everyone obeys it, it can appear that the law is unnecessary.

Corporate practice and corporate results are two different things though. I'm sure corporate practice has changed, but that doesn't mean the haven't found different means to similar ends.

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not going to get bogged down in politics, but that's exactly my point about government intervention. It's often useless, except to create more unnecessary paperwork that hurts small businesses."

I dunno, I kinda like things like the Internet, cleaner air, public roads, GPS, NASA, child labor laws, toxic waste not being dumped into my water supply, a standardized work week, laws against price fixing, government inspectors making sure our buildings don't spontaneously collapse on our heads, that separate but equally was ruled inherently unequal (as unpopular as that ruling might have been at the time with some people) and that my house full of electronic devices can all co-exist since they meet the EMI standards set by the FCC. ;)

There are certainly many governmental problems, but I'd say much has been improved by people using government as their tool for change. I mean, in general the company mindsets haven't changed, what's changed is that sweatshops and dumping toxic materials in landfills are no longer permissible in the US so many companies have moved to places overseas where those things are still permissible. Has this caused an increase in paperwork? Yeah, but being a free country and all if someone doesn't want to do the work they don't have to open a business. ;)

Governments, like companies, are only as good as the people that run them.


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 12:26:46 am

[Oliver Peters] "Or, you simply renew for a month or two to get their revisions done. And they even benefit from you having the current version of the software at a fraction of the cost that you used to pay for upgrades."

Right,

You rent the piano. You invest your time in learning to play it. Then heck, let the piano OWNER haul it off for a few months only to return it immediately before you're required to play the concert? is that the idea?.

I'm sure this approach will have NO effect on the ability of editors to maintain their skills.
Because of course, editing, is so much akin to ditch digging. Rent the power tool in the morning, dig the ditch, return it in the afternoon.

This doesn't devalue the job of an EDITOR at all. No way.

And I'm sure that if we were able to go back and ask John Warnock his opinion in the early days, he'd be perfectly happy to recast AJ Lieblings old bromide as "The power of the press belongs to the man who is allowed to RENT one!" Huzzah!

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 12:48:17 am

[Bill Davis] "You rent the piano. You invest your time in learning to play it. Then heck, let the piano OWNER haul it off for a few months only to return it immediately before you're required to play the concert? is that the idea?. "

Switching from cars to pianos? ;-) It's silly analogies like this that make it hard to discuss the topic seriously. I didn't say you had to like the solution, just that it does present a solution to the dilemma you posed.

[Bill Davis] "I'm sure this approach will have NO effect on the ability of editors to maintain their skills. "

Editors who are continually working come out ahead (cost-wise) in this business model compared to perpetual+regular upgrades. It's editors who do not work regularly for whom subscription is a financial sticking point. Regular use versus occasional use.

But, what is your strategy when a good client presents you with a Premiere Pro CC2014 project and some media and asks you to edit it?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 1:21:43 am

[Oliver Peters] "Switching from cars to pianos? ;-)"

What can I say, life's too short to recycle analogies too much~

[Oliver Peters] "But, what is your strategy when a good client presents you with a Premiere Pro CC2014 project and some media and asks you to edit it?"

I don't edit at a level where clients care what I cut on. I'm a simple corporate and business video producer/editor. So nobody EVER asks what I cut on. They're only interested on what shows up on the screen. Period.

But I will note that friends like Tom Carter in London have reached the point where if you want him to edit for you - as he has for Honda, Sony, Mumford and Son, Jessie J, Ellie Goulding, and a bunch of other A-List clients, you have to accept the tool that HE prefers to edit with.

You're free to go elsewhere, but he isn't willing to take the productivity hit he believes is involved in going back to non-magnetic editing. And with the awards he's piling up, I don't blame him. Strike while you're hot and all.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 1:38:05 am

[Bill Davis] "I don't edit at a level where clients care what I cut on. I'm a simple corporate and business video producer/editor. So nobody EVER asks what I cut on. They're only interested on what shows up on the screen. Period. "

I didn't mean that the client cared what you edit on. The hypothetical is that they bring you a project that they've started in Premiere Pro CC 2014 and expect you to continue. Given Adobe's current momentum, that's quite likely. It happened before with FCP "legacy" all the time. What do you do? Tell them to take a hike? Ask them to come back with an FCPXML or an FCP X Library?

The point is that with the subscription model, you could power up for a month or two and do the job. In the past, you might have had to shell out for the Production Premium bundle at $1800. So in this real-world scenario, you come out ahead with the subscription.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 1:51:21 am

Ah, now I see your the scenario more clearly.

I'd expect to ask them to export a 7 compatible XML, run it through 7 to X and and see what comes out.

Without X readable transcodes, and or range based selections in place, I'd have to bring everything in manually to set it up for X anyway. So depending on how much work they've done, it may or may not make sense to use anything other than a rough cut to see what they're thinking is.

I'd consider it no different than a client who came in with an AVID project or a CMX file for that matter, If it doesn't translate, you rebuild it for your system - or pass on the gig.

What I wouldn't do is waste everyone's time trying to make a duck out of a pigeon.

Better to start over and do it "right" - which is to say follow the process I've developed for editing in X, so I have ALL the tools needed - the properly encoded and transcoded clips, the database, the graphics files, audio as Roles et al, so that I can edit efficiently.

What would be the point of doing anything else?

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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 3:16:02 am

[Oliver Peters] "The point is that with the subscription model, you could power up for a month or two and do the job. In the past, you might have had to shell out for the Production Premium bundle at $1800. So in this real-world scenario, you come out ahead with the subscription."

Assuming the monthly subscription option remains of course.

I think the example you cite is rather rare also. I guess it depends Oliver. Does it happen often to you?

And for sure don't we all take time between jobs to learn new stuff about the software we use? As somebody who produces directs and edits, I definitely find that after a while away from the keyboard it takes me a day or two to get up to speed. On the few occasions I've had to switch back to 7 there have been the odd "now wait a minute how did I do that thing again" moments. I do think Bill has a valid point about that. How many people are going to cut their subscription between jobs requiring the software in reality (I know you say you do Andrew but are you in the majority I wonder?) and, as I said before, if enough do this, how long before Adobe closes that door?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 5:56:28 am

[James Ewart] "I think the example you cite is rather rare also."

[James Ewart] " if enough do this, how long before Adobe closes that door?"

If it's rare it's useless, but if it's popular Adobe will surely remove it, either way Adobe sucks. Got it. ;)

How long before Avid goes out of business, Apple kills FCP X or BM decides it can no longer afford to give away software for free? Might happen next month, might never happen in our lifetimes. The only way to plan for the future is to plan for change.


[James Ewart] "I definitely find that after a while away from the keyboard it takes me a day or two to get up to speed. On the few occasions I've had to switch back to 7 there have been the odd "now wait a minute how did I do that thing again" moments."

I've run into the same thing too on occasion (like when I barely touched Avid for 6 years), but that's not because my editing skills have deteriorated, that's just because my familiarity with a particular NLE temporarily deteriorated. Massive difference, IMO. I don't wear multiple hats though so spending 50+ hours a week cutting probably burns the keystrokes more into my brain than if I split time between multiple roles.


[James Ewart] "(I know you say you do Andrew but are you in the majority I wonder?"

Probably not, but does it matter? That's the great thing about having so many viable NLEs right now, people are free to pick what's best for them even if it's not the best for the majority of people out there. I've worked on some fun (and lucrative) projects that had to be done on Premiere, and there is a big uptick in the amount of Premiere work in Los Angeles, so being the pragmatic man that I am, I'm going to set aside my personal feelings about Adobe's subscription only policy and just cut. Maybe I'll use Premiere for the next 5 years or maybe it will be 5 years before I use it again. I don't know and I don't really care. I'm a freelance editor, not a product evangelist.

Ideally I want to work on interesting projects that will pay the bills and if that means I'm working in Premiere. Sweet. If that means I'm working in Avid. Sweet. If that means I'm working in FCP 7. Sweet. If that means I'm working in X. Sweet. I could go on but I think you get the picture. ;) As long as the workflow and the NLE mesh well together I'll be a happy camper.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 12:33:30 pm

"I think the example you cite is rather rare also.  I guess it depends Oliver.  Does it happen often to you?"

It hasn't been rare for me and yes it does happen, though not on a large amount of jobs. Bill's solution might work for him, but it wouldn't in the cases I've worked in. I have had people supply projects in FCP 7, FCP X, MC and Premiere flavors and expected the same back. If you add After Effects and Photoshop to the conversation, now it gets a bit more universal, I presume. XML, while useful, is still at best a highly flawed and inconsistent medium of exchange.

All I'm saying is that like it or not, the Adobe model in its current form, makes it possible to fullfil the request without the investment that it used to take. This is also true for Avid.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 1:24:38 am

[Bill Davis] "Right,
You rent the piano. You invest your time in learning to play it. Then heck, let the piano OWNER haul it off for a few months only to return it immediately before you're required to play the concert? is that the idea?.

I'm sure this approach will have NO effect on the ability of editors to maintain their skills.
Because of course, editing, is so much akin to ditch digging. Rent the power tool in the morning, dig the ditch, return it in the afternoon. "


I don't know how well that example plays out considering that until rather recently (the last 10-15yrs or so) it wasn't common for people like editors or cinematographers to be able to afford to own their own gear, at least not in movie/tv land.


[Bill Davis] "This doesn't devalue the job of an EDITOR at all. No way. "

How *does* it devalue the role of an editor? If anything doesn't the readily available nature of NLEs these days devalue the role of the editor because now everyone can be an editor?


-Andrew


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 1:40:00 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I don't know how well that example plays out considering that until rather recently (the last 10-15yrs or so) it wasn't common for people like editors or cinematographers to be able to afford to own their own gear, at least not in movie/tv land."

Granted, Andrew, but that was then, and this is a debate about now.

[Andrew Kimery] "How *does* it devalue the role of an editor? If anything doesn't the readily available nature of NLEs these days devalue the role of the editor because now everyone can be an editor?"

If the supposed new model is to rent your tools for a while to learn them, then let the owner shut them off to keep your costs in line, it's perfectly arguable that your skills will ERODE over the time you're shut off from tool access, and you'll be experientially behind the competition that elects to pay and pay and pay.

I and others have been very pleasantly surprised that with X, Apple felt that $299 ONE TIME - and the halo hardware sales effect of needing to chase software capabilities with on-going hardware purchases to maintain maximum functionality was enough of a business model to sustain (and expand) X software development.

I get that Adobe doesn't have anything but software and cloud connection wrapped in an insurance company auto-pay economic model to sell. And that might be a factor in their feeling they need to lock in their customer base up to the extent possible with their current policies. But with competition from the likes of BackMagic who also have a hardware sales model like Apple, but combine it with a a largely FREE software component in the mix, I hope they don't come to regret the plan.

After all, Eventually $50 a month going out in perpetuity is something many can ignore, but not all. Particularly if Resolve ends up is doing a big subset of the same style of legacy friendly editing at Zero bucks a month.

Time will tell.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 13, 2015 at 3:35:27 am

[Bill Davis] "Granted, Andrew, but that was then, and this is a debate about now."

How does that matter? Your argument is that not owning will cause your skills to degrade yet for decades working professionals didn't own their tools and great movies, TV shows, commercials, documentaries, etc., were still made. If someone is working their skills aren't eroding. If someone's gaps between work are so large that their skills significantly deteriorate then they have bigger problems on their hands. And if someone is a staffer where the owner is being pennywise and pound foolish then that's another bigger problem on the editor's hands. And why can't the editor get their own subscription account?

Anyway, I think we are back to a difference in perspective between a freelancer and non-freelancer.

For example, I first learned Avid in school in the late 90's and I primarily worked on Avid from about 2000-2006 and then from 2012 to present. I never owned a copy of Avid until 2011 (Avid 5.5) and I only opened it a handful of times (I got it because of the FCP cross-grade discount). In 2014 I had to upgrade my 5.5 to 6.5 so I could work on a documentary with another editor for a few months. Out of roughly 8-years of Avid being my primary NLE I used my own, personal copy of Avid for about 4 months. The other 92 months I was on Avids I didn't own.

Were my Avid chops rusty when I came back to it after 6 years? Yeah, but my editing and workflow experience were better than ever and it's that experience that got me work (even with the rust). Getting back to Avid was like riding a bike though and it all came flooding back pretty quick.

Do I like the fact that I currently have 3.5 NLEs at my finger tips (X only gets a .5 because I just started in on it)? Of course. Would I want to wind the clock back to when only few people couple afford to have access to their own NLE (let alone multiple NLEs? Not a chance. But saying that not owning = skills detonating is a total straw man. Not working, not editing, means your skills will deteriorate and that can happen whether your own your own NLE or not.

FWIW I've twice stopped and later restarted my CC account as my PPro need came and went and I currently have an annual license on Avid 8 (as opposed to a subscription), but when my year is up I'll probably won't renew my license and just file 8 away incase I need it. If I need something newer than 8 down the line I'll probably just subscribe to it.

I'm not 100% happy with Adobe's subscription only approach, but obviously I'm not going to cut off my nose over it. Apple and BM's approach is obviously easy on the wallet (aside from having to buy their gear) but I'm not sure it's the best thing for the industry long term. Avid's current approach is probably my favorite so far, but I feel like they nickel and dime you if you go the perpetual/annual license route which is frustrating.


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:01:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "Now we can't. Not if someone accepts ACH Rental Terms. Then it's between the vendor the company and some form of outside "binding arbitration." which essentially removes the transaction from the scrutiny of the legal system and absolutely abrogates traditional consumer rights, in my view. "

You still have the ability to walk away from Adobe and never use them again. If Adobe gets heavy handed, the market moves away from them. There are other choices. But, at the moment the market favors Adobe. Not because you or I choose to use them, but rather because we have clients that insist on us using them by supplying and asking for files in Adobe's formats (Photoshop, Illustrator, AE, etc.). If you don't like the rental model, govt intervention is not the answer. Although rules related to credit card usage and billing might be a different story and certainly a valid point.

But let's take a slightly different hypothetical, since we've added the concept of government rules or legislation into the picture. What IF the government decided that all software is a service and not a product? And as a service, all software should ONLY be sold via the rental model? My guess would be that the argument would swing in a completely different direction.

And finally, remember that it is in many ways due to govt intervention in the form of Sarbanes-Oxley that companies have embraced the subscription approach. So be careful what you wish for, ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:03:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "Totally my fault. And I wasted $3k of the charities money doing it. I also learned a HUGE lesson. And thankfully the overall event was a success, but a smaller one than it should have been. "

But you are comparing a private example versus government. The rules are different as the BBC found out.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 5:22:35 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on May 12, 2015 at 5:25:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There is certainly a role for government, however, the view of many on this side, is that government often engages in its own equally questionable practices, without the marketplace to correct them."

The marketplace is wonderful. Right up until the moment it gets perverted by economic clout.

To my thinking, this is actually the ESSENCE of the Adobe push to move as many of their customers as possible to rental with ACH billing which (in my view) is the absolute ESSENCE of manipulating marketplace functioning by removing vendors and consumers from our historical system where the customers relationship with their financial institution was something the consumer could control. The consumer had the ultimate power to NOT PAY.

Now we can't. Not if someone accepts ACH Rental Terms. Then it's between the vendor the company and some form of outside "binding arbitration." which essentially removes the transaction from the scrutiny of the legal system and absolutely abrogates traditional consumer rights, in my view.

Adobe might be a completely benign player in this. But it really worries me that they've elected to build their system on a financial model that is so "buyer beware" in terms of it's actual functioning.

Yeah, it's our own fault if we don't read the tiny print.

It's also our own fault if we keep doing business with firms that RELY on tiny print to shield themselves from too much responsibility for their actions.

Yes, yes, yes. It's how modern business works. Reduction of liability is a legitimate business function. But if you've ever negotiated a contract with a significantly larger entity - you KNOW who's going to be protected and who's going to shoulder the risk.

In our system, the ONLY hope for restraint of big business abuse is government. Because there isn't anyone else with even a smattering of standing that can counterbalance the power that any business bent on market consolidation and dominance (the PURPOSE of business, after all) can be restrained by.

It's just reasonable to keep that in mind.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:28:17 pm

[Bill Davis] "The marketplace is wonderful. Right up until the moment it gets perverted by economic clout. "

I agree, though this isn't limited to just Adobe though. Everyone loves BM in large part because they give away very powerful software for free. How many companies have the economic clout to do that? Raise your hand if you love the fact that you bought FCPX in 2011 and there hasn't been a paid upgrade in 4 years? How many companies of the economic clout to do that?

Look beyond Adobe and you'll see a growing number of software-only companies pushing subscriptions. Sure, when it's from 'giants' like Adobe or Microsoft people scream 'money grab' but what about more midsized companies like Autodesk or much smaller companies like Red Giant? It's not a coincidence and I think part of it certainly has to do with a general devaluation of software in the eyes of customers.

[Bill Davis] "In our system, the ONLY hope for restraint of big business abuse is government. Because there isn't anyone else with even a smattering of standing that can counterbalance the power that any business bent on market consolidation and dominance (the PURPOSE of business, after all) can be restrained by. "

I agree with you, though I also agree with Oliver that we have to be careful what we wish for. Government is supposed to be a tool of the people, by the people, for the people but that's not always how it works out unfortunately.


-Andrew


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Bill Davis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 4:50:43 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on May 12, 2015 at 4:53:49 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Puleez.... Let's keep the govt out of this! That's one way to really muck up the works. Simply take a look at the BBC to see what happens."

Yep, you get Jeremy Brett and Benedict Cumberbatch playing Sherlock Holmes for god sakes. And who in heaven's name wants more of that!

MUCH better a system that generates 109 cheap to produce "housewife reality shows" with a dash of Honey Boo Boo tossed in.

Well, in fairness, I like The Voice - even more than I liked Ted Macks Original Amateur Hour when I was a toddler. So there's that.

And hey, US TV at least brought us superb shows like Seinfeld, Breaking Bad, Girls, Cheers, Cosmos, House of Cards, and Modern Family.

Oops, just realized that these were all more or less concept transplants from the UK.

Give me time, I'll think of something.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:09:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "MUCH better a system that generates 109 cheap to produce "housewife reality shows" with a dash of Honey Boo Boo tossed in."

The system you are lauding also spawned shows like Big Brother, Pop Idol (American Idol in the States), Paris Hilton's British Best Friend, Trust Me – I'm a Beauty Therapist, Project Catwalk, etc.,. ;)

FWIW, Endmol, one of the biggest companies producing reality TV in the world, is Dutch.

If you are looking for some good 'home grown' series you should check out Justified, Bates Motel, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Battlestar Galactica (though the wheels fell off at the end), Deadwood, Gilmore Girls, Mad Men, Penny Dreadful (US + Brit joint venture), Sons of Anarchy, Orange is the New Black, Transparent, Silicon Valley, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Bob's Burgers, Firefly, The Americans, Blacklist, The Following, Supernatural, Arrow, Flash, Alpha House (not great, but fun), Sleepy Hollow (not a fave of mine but seems popular), Star Trek, American Horror Story (hit and miss depending on season, IMO). Law & Order SVU (love me some SVU), Tales from the Crypt (they hold up surprisingly well), etc., I'm also going to throw in Orphan Black (shot in Canada so it's our side of the pond at least ;) ).


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:39:04 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The system you are lauding also spawned shows like Big Brother, Pop Idol (American Idol in the States), Paris Hilton's British Best Friend, Trust Me – I'm a Beauty Therapist, Project Catwalk, etc.,. ;)
"


These are all UK commercial TV shows


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:45:35 pm

[Steve Connor] "These are all UK commercial TV shows"

Ah, right, and the comment was just about the BBC. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:09:33 pm

[James Ewart] "At the heart of a lot of big companies' philosophy is putting their customers first. That's how they get the edge on the competition. "

And the intended result of putting the customer first is to attract more customers which will make the company more money. If putting the customer first cost them money instead of earning them money then they wouldn't do it. For example, Costco used to have an open ended return policy on all items except computers. Buy something a year ago, two years ago, and wanted to return it? No problem. They would take it back (assuming it wasn't broken or damaged of course). But too many people started buying expensive items like TVs (which have a very low markup) and returning them on a regular basis so Costco had to change the return policy because it was costing them too much money. Now they offer a 90 day return window on electronics (which is still much better than the 14-30 day window that most stores offer).



[James Ewart] " If people start dipping in and out of their subscriptions as the need arises according to what jobs they've got on I can see some advantage. But if enough people do it then Adobe will surely start insisting on a one year minimum contract."

Why would Adobe "surely" do that? Pay for it when you need it and not when you don't is one of Adobe's own selling points for CC. If I had to venture a guess I'd say most already sign up for a year because of the cost savings vs going monthly. When CC was first introduced (at the same time as CS6) it was much more expensive than it is now. The 'Adobe will most certainly price gouge customers and there's nothing we can do about it' is a total fabrication.

As long as Adobe keeps making compelling products people will keep paying the subscription price and Adobe will keep making money. If Adobe becomes too expensive, restrictive or lackluster then people will leave. Just like people really started leaving Avid for FCP Legend a decade ago (and it's way easier to switch NLEs today than it was back then). As others have said, there is a whole lot of viable competition in the NLE space right now.

[James Ewart] "I have yet to read one argument that explains how the subscription based model is better for customers. Until now. You are the first"

Lot's of discussion about his here at the COW so I'm surprised you haven't come across it before. Besides what Walter already listed, here are a few more.

1. Lower cost of entry. On a number of filmmaker boards I've seen people remark that they never could afford the upfront cost of Adobe's suites in the past, and I was one of those people. Until rather recently I didn't use Adobe products very much so I never could afford to pay full retail for them (I was the guy that was got a year or two old version for cheap off of eBay).

2. Freedom from Sarbanes–Oxley Act. Basically, an unintended side effect of accounting regulations in the US that impacted how publicly traded companies sell products, including software (If you search for "Sarbanes Oxley" or "SOX" on the COW you'll find more on-point discussion about this). By moving from selling a discreet product with a perpetual license to selling a subscription Adobe is free to add feature upgrades whenever they like (under SOX feature upgrades cannot be free).

Avid most likely faced a similar problem though only those at Avid know for sure. The working theory is that Avid was in trouble for violating SOX which is why they withheld their public filings (which led to them delisting from NASDAQ) until they could get it all sorted out. Now they've started submitting their public filings again, they are back on NASDAQ and they killed their old perpetual licensing and upgrade model (coincidence, I think not). Avid took a slightly different course but they effective ended up at the same, SOX-restriction free place like Adobe.

3. More predictable revenue. By moving a way from the feast/famine cycle of releasing an omnibus upgrade (ready or not) every year or two it's changed how Adobe can approach software development. The pressure to create whiz-bang new features that 'demo well' on an artificial schedule is no long hangs over the head of the software teams at Adobe (from what Ive read, being forced to focus on features that 'demo well' is a rather common complaint at large companies in general, not just at Adobe). The teams are more free to focus on useful, if not headline grabbing features.

For example, at request from users, the After Effects team spent most of the past year retooling the inner workings of AE to make it significantly faster than it was before (it's my understanding that this was phase one of a three phase process to speed up AE). According to the team this is something that wouldn't have been possible under the old model because they don't have the resources to tackle something this big plus create enough shiny, new features to help entice users to upgrade.

Perfect? No. Right for everyone no? But it does have advantages and unique potential that I hope are fully realized by Adobe.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:29:10 pm

Nicely said, Andrew.

While many here just want Adobe to sell versions of the same software they're offering subscriptions for, I see CC -- development, marketing, sales -- as one big ball of yarn; pull on it in one place, it affects all the others, too. Changing the sales model also changes marketing and development as you've outlined.

There are also some perverse incentives built into the perpetual license/upgrade model. You mentioned CC's focus on useful features. Why do good-demo features generally make it into software at the expense of long-time issues for daily users? The higher margin from a new sale versus an upgrade encourages product managers to ignore existing customers' needs and try to go after new customers instead. With subscription, keeping a current user is just as valuable as adding a new one.

I also wonder if one could argue that a perpetual license sale is the cash grab. Imagine if subscription software had been the norm the last couple decades, and some new company came along, wanting to sell their wares for a bunch of money upfront and nothing thereafter. How would that look? "I'm not interesting in a relationship with you, I'm just interested in this sale." We might reasonably question their dedication to the future of the product and its userbase.


[Andrew Kimery] "under SOX feature upgrades cannot be free"

Minor clarification here. The idea behind SOX is all about revenue recognition. You can't book all the revenue on a transaction if you're only providing a portion of the value. This goes back to the Enron scandal, and is intended to prevent companies from using accounting tricks to hide the liabilities on their balance sheets.

For perpetually-licensed software, that means that if you release new features after the sale is made, you should have deferred recognition of an appropriate portion of the revenues until the user gets all the value.

A company like Apple can do free feature releases on FCPX because they can afford to defer the piddly (in context) revenue from FCPX indefinitely. A software-only company would have a much, much harder time justifying that decision to investors.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 12, 2015 at 6:48:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "While many here just want Adobe to sell versions of the same software they're offering subscriptions for, I see CC -- development, marketing, sales -- as one big ball of yarn; pull on it in one place, it affects all the others, too. Changing the sales model also changes marketing and development as you've outlined."

That's my hope as well. Adobe has a chance to create a system and solutions that go beyond just desktop software and I hope they don't squander it.


[Walter Soyka] "Minor clarification here. "

Thanks for that. For the life of me I couldn't find the words to clearly an concisely talk about SOX in relation to our industry like you just did


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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 3:00:52 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Creative Cloud does not push updates. If you wish to stay on an older version, you are free to do so."

But you have to continue to subscribe no? Or can you keep an old version of Premiere on your computer for a year or two and open an old project and it will open the project even though your subscription has lapsed?

Apologies if I am mistaken I was fairly certain that this was not possible.


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Walter Soyka
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on May 11, 2015 at 3:05:09 pm

[James Ewart] "But you have to continue to subscribe no? Or can you keep an old version of Premiere on your computer for a year or two and open an old project and it will open the project even though your subscription has lapsed? Apologies if I am mistaken I was fairly certain that this was not possible."

Sorry, no, you have to have an active subscription to use the application.

But your subscription entitles you to use back to Premiere Pro CS6 if you choose. Updates are not forced, so if you want to stay on an older version, you may. You could even quit Creative Cloud for a couple of years, then rejoin, or even just pay for a month, and use CS6.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:09:50 pm

[Steve Connor] "I genuinely can't understand why people are denying themselves a suite of very useful tools, just because it's subscription only."

Steve,

Why don't you ask them?

Franz.


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Chris Harlan
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 6, 2014 at 6:06:42 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Steve Connor] "I genuinely can't understand why people are denying themselves a suite of very useful tools, just because it's subscription only."

Steve,

Why don't you ask them?

Franz.
"


LOL! Now, now. It's not like they're not saying it loudly and in BOLD ALL CAPS at every available moment. And, I happen to agree with Steve at this point. Of course, he and I both regularly use other systems as well, so some of the same fears aren't there. But this thing's done. Adobe's not changing direction. Its what they want to do with their tools. Boycotts aren't going to change it. As Steve says, I genuinely can't understand why people are denying themselves a suite of very useful tools, just because it's subscription only.


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David Mathis
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:34:59 pm

My biggest concern with subscription only, from any company is the following:

A. A product or service could be dropped or no longer supported
B. The cost of the subscription could go up
C. Pay for products or a service I do not want or need. Could go the al a carte option but that ends up costing more in most situations.
D. No clear exit strategy, mainly no buyout option after a set time.
E. All of the above

By the way, I am subscribed to Red Giant Universe but they offer a lifetime membership. Right now I am on a monthly subscription level, the cost is very reasonable and I can upgrade to either an annual subscription or lifetime membership.

This is a business decision, nothing personal. I hope this brings some clarity to the discussion.

camera operator | editor | production assistant

Remember kids, tracks are you friends when you charge by the hour. Track Tetris, game on!


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Scott Witthaus
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 4, 2014 at 5:53:42 pm

[David Mathis] "B. The cost of the subscription could go up"

I think there is no doubt the cost will go up at some point. Get them hooked and raise the price....or else! ;-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Chris Harlan
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 6, 2014 at 6:11:43 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[David Mathis] "B. The cost of the subscription could go up"

I think there is no doubt the cost will go up at some point. Get them hooked and raise the price....or else! ;-)
"


Or else? Well, the else would be abandoning the tools for one or more of the many other options out there. There's nothing new to being vulnerable to a vendor's caprices.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing!!!!!
on Sep 5, 2014 at 7:49:37 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Aindreas broke down and bought a Creative Cloud subscription. Hell just froze over.
"


ah Seeman - to be fair I was backed right into that on a manic morning. in a figurative trash dumpster with a credit card. Adobe are creating some excellent staged hop skip impediments back to CS AE compatibility.

Chris Petit is near already calling me a fifth columnist for god's sake. Don't make it worse.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Marcus Moore
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 1:43:30 pm
Last Edited By Marcus Moore on Sep 4, 2014 at 1:44:37 pm

This follows on news I brought to everyone's attention back in June-

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/70445

Ollie Kenchington (June 2014)-
"I'm an Apple Certified Trainer for FCPX and am currently delivering back to back FCPX101 courses for the BBC. 20 of their staff editors are moving up to X from 7, with my guidance, and they LOVE it. Their lead editor told me that they edit (or re-edit) 30% of all the BBC's output."


The info that wasn't in the original Facebook post was that he was talking about BBC News specifically, and not BBC output overall, which was tough to believe.


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Emmanuel Tenenbaum
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 2:16:21 pm

Maybe we can finally change this obsolete forum category............. FCPX, point.

Emmanuel Tenenbaum
http://emmanueltenenbaum.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 3:38:57 pm

Hopefully this English translation of the above link works.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=...



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juan prado
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 4:03:28 pm

Sorry!


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Marcus Samuel-Gaskin
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 4, 2014 at 9:40:51 pm

YES !

That is all.


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Jason Porthouse
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 5, 2014 at 5:14:55 pm

As to the why's - well I believe it's ease of use for non-editors. Far more news content now is by self shooting PDs (I can't use the word Preditor, brings me out in hives) and from what I've gathered from talking to people X is far, far more intuitive for cutting selects and even stories. Far less to screw up on in terms of sync on clips etc. and a far easier time in terms of cutting native material from DSLRs (used increasingly in news now) with differing codecs, maybe with some footage from phones or the like thrown in for good measure.

Personally I hope it propagates through to other areas too. I still enjoy cutting on it more than anything else...

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.



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Brett Sherman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 6, 2014 at 7:44:57 am

I think FCP X really is the perfect editor for fast turnaround news pieces. Where it runs into resistance, and I know this anecdotely from one TV station, is when the senior editor doesn't like the magnetic timeline and trackless arrangement. The lower cost of FCP X may overpower some of this with ad revenue on a downward trajectory. It will be interesting to see what happens as TV stations are going to have to upgrade their software in the next couple years.



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James Ewart
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 6, 2014 at 10:50:00 am
Last Edited By James Ewart on Sep 6, 2014 at 10:54:47 am

"the senior editor doesn't like the magnetic timeline and trackless arrangement'

I think of lot of us probably fitted into that category at the outset.

What I find a little odd is what it is about the software that people seem to imply is not suitable for anything other than fast turnaround pieces.

What specifically. I wonder makes people think it's not suitable for a thirty, 60 or 90 minute piece? A documentary or a feature?

My take FWIW is that this is again the Premiere and Avid community trying to explain away their initial resistance about its being fit for purpose so now seem to be trying to explain it away with phrases like "oh it's okay for news items but... "


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Oliver Peters
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 6, 2014 at 1:05:39 pm

Regarding the BBC, everyone might want to go back and reread the comments at the end of the article. A couple of BBC staffers have weighed in with some clarification of what they felt were inaccurate assumptions made in the story.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 6, 2014 at 3:16:41 pm

If there's one thing to be learned through all the debate forums, is that there is no accuracy, especially in the numbers.

The BBC uses everything, the right tool for the right job. The tools and jobs will change, that much is guaranteed, and life continues.

I mean, Aindreas plunked down his credit card for subscription, and all of us made it through. We are still out here, working, at least for now, until the multicam robots take our jobs, and cloud editing shifts the gigs to the most cost effective regions of the planet.


Godspeed, titans. Life is short.


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Steve Connor
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 6, 2014 at 3:27:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "and cloud editing shifts the gigs to the most cost effective regions of the planet. "

Some of the work on a feature I'm editing at the moment has gone to one of the "cost effective" regions for Post, they only charge 15% of the day rate here in the UK and their work is excellent. We should all be worried!


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Brett Sherman
Re: BBC adopts FCP X for news editing
on Sep 7, 2014 at 4:33:39 am

I will say when FCP X first came out I was not convinced about the timeline. Then finally gave it a test run and I decided it would make my work faster, so I jumped in. But it takes open-mindedness and willingness to question whether the way you used to do things really is best. I just don't think all editors have that.

I think FCP X can work for longer format videos also. The longest I've done is around 20 minutes, so I'm no expert on that. It does have a tendency to get bogged down on longer projects sometimes which I think for many is a concern.



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