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FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output

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Oliver Peters
FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:04:44 am

I'm not sure what's going on, but I've now seen this on every project I've worked on using 3 different unrelated systems. This includes projects converted from 10.1.2 to 10.1.3, as well as started from scratch in 10.1.3.

I'll edit an audio track in FCP X using connected clips. Sources are AIF or WAV or detached audio from a video file. I'll tweak as needed and add fade handles. When I export an FCPXML to convert and send to another program, the audio edits are completely destroyed. This includes XML conversion and bringing it into FCP 7 or a DAW or converting AAF. No difference. The results are audio clips that are upcut and/or cut short (probably where the fade handles were). But some are the wrong portion of the clip. In one project (a 10 min. teaser video) some files are completely clipped, except for a few frames.

The bottom line is that I have been completely unable for several projects to export any sort of functional file to hand off to an audio editor/mixer. Everything sounds and looks fine inside FCP X. And I can successfully export stems using roles, but then my work is baked in, which is NEVER what you ideally want to do. I can't believe that I'm the only one this is happening to. It was fine prior to 10.1.2. Thoughts?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:25:31 am

X2Pro?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:34:51 am

Tried that to. Same problem. The issues seem to be in the original FCPXML output. FWIW, I've had no issues with picture exports.

Here's a simple test that I just did at home tonight. A completely fresh library and project. Project is 1080p/23.98, 48kHz audio.

Take a few audio and video clips. Audio can be AIFF or WAV. Use VO and music. Build a VO track using overlapping connected clips and add fade handles to each stretching into the audio section (not just over blank space). Place a music bed underneath as a connected clip. Put a few picture clips above - also as connected clips.

Export an XML, convert using Xto7 and bring into FCP7. Listen to the VO track. Are all the clips in the correct place? Is the audio up-cut at the heads or clipped at the tails of any clips? Is it the correct part of the take?

This is with FCP X 10.1.3 running on OS X 10.9.4 on an older Mac Pro tower.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:48:06 am

What is your original source material?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:54:09 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "What is your original source material?"

On the various projects, it's all over the place. This latest test was ProResHQ for picture and AIF for audio.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:57:55 am

I just did a quick test, everything came over, fade handles, transitions, and all.

I've seen bad translations when the incoming tc is weird, or added from an app that uses an older calculation method.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 1:09:28 am

No TC on the tested source clips from tonight as these are music and VO tracks.

- Oliver



Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:00:26 am

Let me run another test.

My music was in the primary.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:24:09 am

Still can't get it to fail. Everything plays back OK, looks like this:





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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:33:54 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Still can't get it to fail. Everything plays back OK, looks like this:"

It did the same thing, albeit less so. Compare your FCP 7 fades to the FCP X fades. See how the FCP 7 fades extend beyond the clip boundaries? Clips are in the right place, but the audio slipped. Make a QT from X and line it up in 7 and I bet you'll hear it...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:59:18 am

It sounds just fine, though. The files line up and play.


The fades aren't quite right, but the timing is OK.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:06:09 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:09:43 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "The fades aren't quite right, but the timing is OK."

Weird, mine was off by a noticeable amount, beyond phasing and into delay territory. I'll have to try putting the pix in the primary and see if that changes things tomorrow. Not sure why it would, but clearly somethings getting lost in translation in some cases...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:12:15 am

I'm sure Greg will get it sorted.

Doing all this work back in 7 is tiring. ;)


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:35:08 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Doing all this work back in 7 is tiring. ;)"

lol. yep. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:31:04 am

[Oliver Peters] "I can't believe that I'm the only one this is happening to. It was fine prior to 10.1.2. Thoughts?"

Not you, but not sure it's the fcpxml either. I recreated your timeline, and sure enough, the VO clips shifted in place. But... importing the fcpxml directly into logic, and then into Resolve 11, and lining up a QT movie of the FCP X project, it was perfectly fine. Something's happening in the Xto7 translation, and maybe the same issue with the X2Pro translation. (didn't try that) Here's the timeline pix, from bottom to top (oops):

FCP X original,
FCP 7, (obviously shifted, check the fades)
Logic with the QT from the original above, looks and plays fine),
R11 with QT ref on the bottom track, also plays fine. So... mis-translation? Might want to send the original fcpxml, translation and Fcp X and 7 test projects to Greg....



-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:37:10 am

[Oliver Peters] "The bottom line is that I have been completely unable for several projects to export any sort of functional file to hand off to an audio editor/mixer."

Looks like you may be able to import the fcpxml into Logic or R11 and get it out of there. See my other reply.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 8:33:56 am

Been running some tests as well. I can see the problem when importing the converted XML in FCP7. No problems with R11 or Logic, nor with ProTools via X2Pro. So FCP X does not destroy anything and the exported FCP XML is fine. The issue is strictly with Xto7 and FCP.

- Ronny


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 11:23:11 am

Just out of curiosity, my question is why you are going through these hoops? What's the end result you are hoping to achieve?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:40:15 pm

I don't know about Oliver, but I've used Xto7 specifically to get the audio over to FCP 7 to clean up all the track placements and export to OMF for ProTools. I don't have X2Pro.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:53:50 pm

The trouble with AAF is that you have no way to verify accuracy before handing it off to an audio mixer in the event the translation is wrong. I tried an AAF test on one of these and opened it in Audition. Turned out that for whatever reason X2Pro was not able to embed the sound. Everything was offline.

With FCP 7 and OMF, at least I can catch and correct issues before sending to the mixer. Lastly, the agency prefers a mixer who happens to use an older system. He can deal with AAF, but prefers OMF.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 12:46:21 pm

Ronny, I wouldn't let FCP X off the hook quite so easily. I'll rerun a check in Logic and Resolve. On a different project, but with similar audio problems, the direct path into Resolve as well as Smoke were not correct. In those cases, it was audio from a C300 in one, and synchronized double-system sound in another.

Scott, I need to be able to hand off an OMF to the preferred Pro Tools mixer.

Charlie, Jeremy, I'll see what Resolve and Logic do with this test later tonight, when I'm back home on the same computer.

FWIW, are you running your tests in 23.98 timelines? I have seen some FCP X issues that have cropped up in 23.98, but not in 29.97.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 1:53:02 pm
Last Edited By James Ewart on Aug 28, 2014 at 1:54:37 pm

I hate your funny frame rates :-) Create so many problems for what benefit?

http://www.jamesewart.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:04:09 pm

[James Ewart] "Create so many problems for what benefit?"

I completely agree, but it's a legacy issue that we are stuck with. FWIW - if you want to work with video gear, you have to use fractional frame rates. Nevertheless, these issues don't appear to be because of the fractional rates, but rather some internal difference between 30 versus 24. Often times these issues boil down to an internal arrogance among software designers for 24fps world. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I have seen this attitude reflected at various times from all of the NLE companies.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:54:18 pm

Just don't quite understand why in this digital age you are not shooting everything at 30. I guess it's still to do with the NTSC colour system.

I confess to being grateful for living in 50hz land sometimes. I think we have life a bit simpler.


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Jeremy Garchow
This is now off topic
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:01:57 pm

[James Ewart] "I confess to being grateful for living in 50hz land sometimes. I think we have life a bit simpler."

This is going waaaaay OT.

Did you watch the BBC show Luther, or are you familiar with it?


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James Ewart
Re: This is now off topic
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:10:20 pm

No I missed that Jeremy but will see if I can download. Was it good?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This is now off topic
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:12:48 pm

It was interesting and sometimes cheeky.

I was just wondering, from production value standards, how this show fits in to the visual lexicon from the perspective of a UK resident.


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James Ewart
Re: This is now off topic
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:19:19 pm

I'll check it out.

We have definitely seen a return to quality from the BBC due to competition from the American series like 24 (last series a bit disappointing), Blue Bloods (bit schmaltzy but I love it) and True Detectives (who mixed the audio though?) to name a few that have done really well here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:09:15 pm

[James Ewart] "Just don't quite understand why in this digital age you are not shooting everything at 30. ...I confess to being grateful for living in 50hz land sometimes."

Well, even integers, yes. But, what about the 24fps world (film)? In PAL countries you still have the 24 versus 25fps issues.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:13:47 pm

Don't even understand why we don't all shoot 30FPS for Cinema?

Would that not be nice? A whole world united at 30FPS.

You know (sorry off topic again) I don't have any experience of this, but I think that we do a straight transfer of 24 FPS to 25FPS for TV. Certainly we used to in film days.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:31:46 pm

[James Ewart] "Don't even understand why we don't all shoot 30FPS for Cinema?"

Aesthetic choice at this point. Some people (me included) prefer the look of 24 or 25fps over 30. That might change with coming generations, of course. On a somewhat different technical note - for web work, 24 or 25 offers better compressed quality than 30 for the same given file size. Therefore, it's more efficient and you generally see no difference on any displays. You would on CRTs, but those are all but dead.

[James Ewart] " I don't have any experience of this, but I think that we do a straight transfer of 24 FPS to 25FPS for TV. Certainly we used to in film days"

With a speed change. There are also 2 PAL pulldown methods, which are even more ridiculous than that used in the NTSC world.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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James Ewart
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 4:25:16 pm

I've heard people ay they prefer the loom of 24 over 25 - I always thought that was a bit far fetched an argument being that 24 looked more "filmic" then 25. More of a film versus tape argument from way back.

But the look of 24/25 over 30? Hmmm never heard that. 30 more clinical for your money? Something in the magic of that drop frame thingy? ... I wonder ... the fact that it is not a perfect fit? Maybe.

Transfer 24 to 25.... bit of a tone change in audio but doesn't look so weird I don't think.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:37:55 pm

Hey Oliver,

We work between FCP X and ProTools on a daily basis and I have seen no such problems with X2Pro and 10.1.3 XML. Hence my conclusion that FCP X XML is not to blame.

But I have done my tests with Logic and Resolve using 25fps video as I live in PAL world, so I will do a similar test with 23.98 fps video.

- Ronny


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 8:04:57 pm

After a bit more testing this afternoon, I have some interesting results. Two different projects.

Project A is a spot with sync audio that all comes from a C300 onboard recording. This is edited to the primary with split audio edits that overlap and have fades. Plus an edited music bed as connected clips. Project B is the test I used last night, with only VO and music edited as connected clips. Nothing on the primary.

I brought each into Resolve 11 and checked it there plus exported an XML from Resolve that I then brought into FCP 7. I also checked them in Logic Pro X. Lastly, I did a conversion via Xto7 to compare in FCP 7. So direct FCPXML into Resolve and Logic. Two different types of translated XMLs into FCP 7.

In the case of Project B (VO/music only as connected clips), Resolve and Logic don't shift the clips. This holds true when I use the R11 XML export and bring that into FCP 7. The Xto7 conversion DOES shift the clips. So in this case Xto7 seems to be doing something wrong.

However, in Project A (sync camera audio) Resolve leaves everything on A1 and, therefore, cuts off all of the overlaps, making that useless. Logic correctly checkerboards the overlapping audio. When I bring the converted XML from R11 into FCP 7, clip sync is correct, but you still have the issue of the audio that's clipped because the overlaps are gone, due to the single-track situation. OTOH, this project IS correctly represented inside FCP 7 using the Xto7 conversion.

The bottom line is that for Project A, Xto7 does the more accurate job. If you were going to use Resolve for a Project A piece, then you'd have to detach audio before exporting an FCP XML. For Project B, Resolve does the right thing. Logic is OK for all.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 29, 2014 at 11:22:52 pm

After some continued testing, it turns out that the loop through Resolve doesn't completely work after all. The export from Resolve is interpreted as having mono, rather than stereo or multichannel tracks.

Logic seems to work reasonably well and takes in the right levels. Some clip I/Os are still wrong. X2Pro seems to do the best for clip accuracy, but levels are stripped off.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:18:40 pm

[Oliver Peters] "FWIW, are you running your tests in 23.98 timelines? "

Yes, only 23.98 for me.

I am going to run more tests at the office today as I have access to more media.

Jeremy


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Marcus Moore
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 4:37:15 pm

Have you been in contact with Intelligent Assistance?


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 6:26:38 pm

I'm not sure if Greg is back yet from visiting family in Australia And not even sure that matters in the globally connected world we all live in these days.

Regardless, as always they'll leap tall buildings to get any actual issues resolved as fast as they possibly can.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 7:24:33 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Have you been in contact with Intelligent Assistance?"

Yes, they are in the loop.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 6:21:31 pm

Well, then hang the project up.

After all, X DESTROYS audio.

It says so right there in the title.

When A thing is "destroyed" then there's no possible way to salvage it.

That's what "destroyed" means.

And Oliver is a writer. And writers understand words. And their effect.

So now everyone can move on to Premier or AVID. Because X "destroys" stuff.

Pretty simple messaging really. Who else wants to move with me over to the Sony Vegas Cafe and look around?

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 28, 2014 at 8:07:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "Well, then hang the project up."

Judging by some of the posts in the Adobe CC debate forum, I would suggest that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ;-) Just saying' ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 29, 2014 at 5:26:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Judging by some of the posts in the Adobe CC debate forum, I would suggest that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ;-) Just saying' ;-)"

Well, I understand the point - to a point..

However, there is a difference.

I didn't post a peep about the mess I was in until I confirmed that the mess was an ACTUAL mess. And that I fully understood the source of the mess.

So my headline, essentially CC had screwed up my workflow due to first, a system wide "down for maintenance" problem, then a systemic credit card validation issue. Factors I pointed out in detail.

Are you still comfortable with your headline? Do you stand by the fact that - X itself destroyed audio edits in your XML output? If so then the headline is fair. If not, perhaps not.

Places like this often drive the public perception of things. And so being as careful with the construction of headlines is as important as being careful with body copy. IMO.

That's all I'm saying.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 29, 2014 at 7:40:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "Do you stand by the fact that - X itself destroyed audio edits in your XML output?"

I'm still quite comfortable with it. Actually, if you re-read your original post, you were talking about destroying audio, not audio edits. I'm glad you clarified that, as that's what I was talking about.

As a matter of fact, I'm still wrestling with a 10 min. short that is not exporting correctly into any of the possible apps. I'm taking a file home to check it in Logic, but right now it only export with one of two audio channels using Resolve. Not right at all through Xto7. So while part of the issues I brought up appear to have been solved by direct import into Resolve, that isn't universally true.

I absolutely fault FCP X with this, because Apple has chosen to create a new, non-standard export format (FCPXML) instead of anything that is commonly used. It's a neat little way of washing their hands of any problems.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 8:59:57 am

Oliver,

Did you consider that Apple likely uses a "non standard XML" because FCP X itself is a "non standard" NLE?
And evolution was a core design goal? Apples engineering team is often surprising, but when they change things, it usually turns out there is an underlying reason.

And un the case of X XML if it can't evolve to incorporate new ideas, what good is it?

It seems that overall, teams like the Grants at BlackMagic can parse present day FCPX XML pretty successfully, after all.

It's clear you have robust needs that go beyond most users in your work for multiple types of clients. So I appreciate your frustration when X doesn't always do everything you need. But I still don't think that justifies the type of alarmist tone of your original thread title.

If it turns out that there is actually some big reproducible flaw in how X works that creates widespread grief in the user community, I'll be back promptly to apologise.

But I honestly dont think thats how the thread developed, so it can be argued that we're left with a persistent thread title that is, at best, overblown.

That won't stop the world. But it's also not what I usually expect from your typically more reasoned postings.

Simple as that.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 2:03:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "Did you consider that Apple likely uses a "non standard XML" because FCP X itself is a "non standard" NLE?
And evolution was a core design goal? Apples engineering team is often surprising, but when they change things, it usually turns out there is an underlying reason. "


While that is certainly true, I'd be willing to bet that much of the reason Apple has shunned standards like EDLs, OMFs and AAFs with X is that they don't want to pay licensing fees to others in order to use these technologies. I have no particular problem with FCPXML if it actually worked. But from everyone I've talked to that actually works with it as a developer, they have a lot of frustrations with it. It keeps changing and based on my experiences, seems to be very open to interpretation, as evidenced by the fact that one developer can get completely different results than another. Some route honor levels and fades. Some don't. It's a real crapshoot as to what you'll get, depending on where you go with it.

Most of the time FCP X is great if you stay within its wall garden. Unfortunately X still gets a "D" in the "plays well with other" category, IMHO.

[Bill Davis] "It seems that overall, teams like the Grants at BlackMagic can parse present day FCPX XML pretty successfully, after all. "

Yes, but then they are unable to correctly parse it go the other way.

[Bill Davis] "But I honestly dont think thats how the thread developed, so it can be argued that we're left with a persistent thread title that is, at best, overblown. "

I guess we disagree. No different than "CC screwed me this weekend. Sigh."

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 2:07:53 pm

[Oliver Peters] "But from everyone I've talked to that actually works with it as a developer, they have a lot of frustrations with it. It keeps changing and based on my experiences, seems to be very open to interpretation, as evidenced by the fact that one developer can get completely different results than another."

Oliver,

I'd be interested in a more detailed post about FCPXML, its history and related issues ... if you were considering such a thing for here or your blog.

Franz.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 2:25:38 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "if you were considering such a thing for here or your blog."

I don't know if that's something I'll tackle. It keeps changing and I don't know that I've tracked all the issues. Ironically "FCP 7" XML is considered a pseudo-standard by many companies these days. That's what Adobe is using, though there are some differences.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 3:12:25 pm

I'm sorry, but isn't this the nature of any exchange format?

X2pro, which creates what I am assuming is an official AAF, doesn't work everywhere, like Audition, an audio editor.

Pr can sort of import AAFs from x2pro. Is this x2pros fault? Or the incoming program's fault?

I think you've proven that there's a lot of data available in the FCPXML, so how exactly should we blame Apple for this, and what should we blame them for?

This problem is not limited to Apple, it is the nature of translation, even of the human language.

Not everything translates perfectly from native tongue to native tongue, and if you get two different translators, you might get mostly the same information with subtle differences.

Hell, even fcs3 wasn't a prefect translation between its own apps using XML.

For a brand new standard, I think it's doing OK, despite it's moving target status.

I haven't had an AAF rejected, as a matter of fact, most audio folks
I work with have embraced it.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 3:37:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm sorry, but isn't this the nature of any exchange format?"

It's not the fault of the exchange format IF IT IS A STANDARD - which AAF is. Whether or not companies decide to be compliant to the standard is obviously an issue.

[Jeremy Garchow] "so how exactly should we blame Apple for this, and what should we blame them for?"

Because Apple choses to ignore industry standards most of the time.

[Jeremy Garchow] "For a brand new standard, I think it's doing OK, despite it's moving target status. "

That's a cop out. We are past the 3-year point. Apple should be better than this.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 5:53:08 pm

[Oliver Peters] "It's not the fault of the exchange format IF IT IS A STANDARD - which AAF is. Whether or not companies decide to be compliant to the standard is obviously an issue.
"


You say that FCPXML is a copout.

I think that your above statement is a copout. There aren't even standards for some of the formats that fcpx supports, so who is coping out, exactly? And how long does something need to be vetted before becoming a standard?


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 8:01:19 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And how long does something need to be vetted before becoming a standard?"

There are actual standards that the industry agrees upon (SMPTE, EBU, etc.) and there are pseudo standards that result because of overwhelming use, like QuickTime. The latter gave us gamma shifts, versus MXF which doesn't, but QT is also easier to use. Pros and cons. So it has nothing at all to do with length of time.

OTOH, QT is only controlled by Apple. Now that they've moved onto something (hopefully) better, those who relied on QT as a "standard" will take it in the shorts over time.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 11:17:46 am

[Oliver Peters] "I absolutely fault FCP X with this, because Apple has chosen to create a new, non-standard export format (FCPXML) instead of anything that is commonly used. It's a neat little way of washing their hands of any problems"

Hi Oliver -

I can see your frustrations! Another point of curiosity. I like to avoid going to multiple systems as much as possible, to the point where it has influence in the workflow and tools. I had a gig with a producer a couple months ago that I wanted to use X for but some work had previously been in 7, so I felt it was safer just to stay there. Maybe I am off-base, but, like my project timelines/sequences, I try to keep my workflow as simple as possible. Why force an issue?

Knowing that you needed OMF's (which admittedly I have not supplied to an audio house in years), why did you start in X and not simply use FCP7?

However, today I start on a project with hundreds of DSLR clips to sync. If I get audio problems, I will be cursing right there with you! :-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 1:53:08 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Maybe I am off-base, but, like my project timelines/sequences, I try to keep my workflow as simple as possible. Why force an issue?"

Depends on the project. On many of these, I've cut in X, round-tripped to Resolve for color grading and passed off elements to a compositor for some After Effects work and to a mixer for Pro Tools mixing.

[Scott Witthaus] "Knowing that you needed OMF's (which admittedly I have not supplied to an audio house in years), why did you start in X and not simply use FCP7?"

Because until recently, the 'X to FCP7 for OMF' process has worked quite well. Something has broken in the recent changes with FCP X.

BTW, what have you supplied to audio houses? I still get a lot of push-back when I try to send AAFs. I've had audio quality problems (crackling) on some projects when I exported baked audio as roles.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 3:42:36 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I can see your frustrations!"

Part of the frustration is that these issues have cropped up at the point of export and delivery, without any warning while you are working the project. That's been characteristic of many of the X bugs, like the "paste attributes" bug, the loss of render files, the bad renders on export and the sample-rate related audio distortion I encountered (other threads). This was never the case with other Apple software and is almost never the case with other NLEs.

You are rocking along fine while using the program and then find out there's no easy way to get where you need to go.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 7:07:58 pm

[Oliver Peters] "This was never the case with other Apple software and is almost never the case with other NLEs."

Some of us miss FCS3's "legendary" stability, but this is getting a little weird. I can remember a few export bugs with Final Cut Pro 7 or less, and XML errors (like clips getting a 0 scale so they looked like they were blank).

I mean, here's the list of bug fixes on the latest release of Pr CC 2014 in July.

Some of these have to do with effects not rendering on export and other export oddities.

These types of problems are not unique to Apple and bugs are certainly not unique to fcpx.


Bug Fixes:
• ‘Async’ asserts could occur when exporting some file types
• Incorrect angles could be shown when separate multicam clips were created with different sort order
• Waveforms could be improperly drawn when nesting a multicam source sequence
• Effects could fail to render within effect mask boundaries
• Garbage could appear around the edge of a layer that had a blur video effect applied and a mask on Opacity
• Masks could offset Gaussian Blur in CUDA mode
• Attempting to move a column to the left of the Name column in the Project panel could break cell selection
• Occasional instance where sequences could never finished rendering
• Relinking to spanned MXF clips could be incorrect
• UI responsiveness could reduce in large projects after relinking
• Exporting merged clips could generate silent or missing audio
• Importing sequences could sometimes fail
• Incorrect timebases could be used on EDL export
• Incorrect field display could occur when using Mercury Transmit with GPU acceleration
• Audio presets were sometimes not working correctly if used with a different format container
• Complex video assets could produce a blurry image every 1 second when encoded into H.264
• Mask Expansion could not be rendered correctly during preview scrubbing on layers that were scaled to 50% or less
• Applying a speed change to a multicam clip could cause the extended duration of the clip to play with no video
• Merged clips that contain clips with sync offsets could display out of sync indicators when used in a sequence
• Crashes could occur during export to QuickTime.
• Masking and Tracking: Brightness & Contrast could be incorrectly displayed in an Adjustment Layer
• File import failures could occur when no assets were selected in the Locate Media dialog
• Asserts and crashes could occur when exporting project to OMF
• Crashes could occur when rendering audio with a locked submix track
• Submixes could sometimes lose audio
• Noise could be heard in submixes with empty tracks
• Source monitor timecode and program monitor overlay could be off from one another in multicam sequences
• Audio overlays for Multicam and nested sequences would only display as audio time units.
• 24p/50p XDCAM EX files were sometimes 1 frame short when smart rendered
• MPEG2 TS files with 6 tracks of stereo audio could only play/show first stereo track when imported in to PPro
• Playing IMX 50 clip could freeze video
• Locking all Audio Tracks could cause the system to slow down dramatically


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 30, 2014 at 8:07:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "These types of problems are not unique to Apple and bugs are certainly not unique to fcpx. "

I would agree. As a general trend I think software is released in a buggier state than ever before. That's certainly true of Adobe and Avid.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Aug 31, 2014 at 6:13:26 pm

Again, I'm NOT suggesting anyone refrain from pointing out whatever flaws any program has. That's not just fair game, it's the whole point of these discussion forums.

I still feel that the tone of your post was needlessly alarmist.

And YES, I know that my "CC screwed me" post in the other forum can be seen in exactly the same terms.

So I understand more than perhaps anyone else that in the heat of feeling the damage from something that you NEED TO WORK NOW - it's really easy to go on-line and bash it.

But it's a slippery slope. I tried to tread that line by documenting not just what happened, but how.My feeling was that I was illuminating how the CC system functions (or on the weekend regarding licensing issues, does NOT function.) was useful to the readers.

I'm not quite sure how in the end, noting that FCPX XML is far from perfect in all interchange situations is might have the same level of end user impact, but OK . Fair point. Well made.

I'll just pledge do my best to be much more careful about using "alarmist headlines" when I'm pissed about something in the future.

Perhaps you will as well and we can both do our best to elevate the tenor of the discussions.

Or maybe the occasional on-line wrestling matches is precisely why so many people read this forum?

Hard to say. ; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Sep 1, 2014 at 12:12:14 am

[Bill Davis] "Perhaps you will as well and we can both do our best to elevate the tenor of the discussions.
Or maybe the occasional on-line wrestling matches is precisely why so many people read this forum?
Hard to say. ; )"


No problem. Although I don't think the tone of the posts themselves were alarmist, I can certainly see your point about the title. Clearly sometimes these threads are more a case of working out the details online after some give and take. But yes, being more subdued about headlines is a good goal.

OTOH, Tim is laughing all the way to the bank ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Sep 4, 2014 at 1:53:16 am

[Oliver Peters] "This includes XML conversion and bringing it into FCP 7 or a DAW or converting AAF."

IA has fixed the translation in Xto7. No more destruction! ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Sep 4, 2014 at 2:14:22 am

[Charlie Austin] "IA has fixed the translation in Xto7. No more destruction! ;-)"

As of when? I have their most current version (App Store, at least) and have been in direct contact regarding this project. So right now, no, it has not been fixed.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Sep 4, 2014 at 3:37:42 am

[Oliver Peters] "As of when? I have their most current version (App Store, at least) and have been in direct contact regarding this project. So right now, no, it has not been fixed."

popped up in S/W update about 2 minutes before I posted, seems to indicate an audio rate fix, though I haven't tried it yet...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Elliott Dalrymple
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Dec 10, 2014 at 11:01:42 pm

Hey Im kinda new here but I have just arrived at this issue in FCPX, every time I try to export my audio into Logic Pro X it looses all its syncing points and all the handles change. I even dusted of a One to one membership for apple to sort it out at a store and everyone was baffled. Did anyone manage to resolve this at all?


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Brian Weber
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Jan 12, 2015 at 7:13:07 pm

I had a pretty huge XML problem as well. Apple makes no mention of an issue with Logic, but I've read that Resolve and Redcine do not like compound clips (or anything sync'd by fcpx itself)

I selected everything, went up to the Clip menu and selected "Break apart clip items"

After that the XML worked just fine transferring over to Logic.


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Steve Vanderheide
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Jan 26, 2017 at 7:46:38 pm

Hey Oliver!

I was having very similar issues, and my audio guy and I were going back and forth, pulling our hair out trying to figure out what the heck was going on. We even had a spreadsheet going of different combinations of preferences in X2Pro checked, to weed out any variables.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not, but I stumbled on this forum post on X2Pro's website that completely fixed our problem. It was sample rates.

https://x2pro.net/help/support-forum/12-x2pro-professional/1253-sound-is-ou...

Make sure Pro Tools (or I assume any DAW) DOES NOT apply SRC (sample rate conversion) when importing.

I hope this helps. Please forgive redundancy if this has already been raised.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X destroying audio edits in XML output
on Jan 26, 2017 at 7:53:59 pm

[Steve Vanderheide] "I was having very similar issues,"

Hi,

This thread is 3 years old ☺ FWIW, I only use X2Pro to send X audio files to Pro Tools. The original issue related to XML, which I never use in conjunction with audio. But, thanks for the good tips. Much appreciated.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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