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FCP X and the Tour de France

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Ronny Courtens
FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 7:33:10 am

An interesting read on FCP X workflows and performance:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/articles/1480-editing-the-tour-de-france-on...

- Ronny


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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 11:50:19 am

Not bad for an NLE that some people think isn't "professional"

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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Gary Huff
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 4:03:33 pm

[Steve Connor] "Not bad for an NLE that some people think isn't "professional""

I really don't think there's any disagreement about this aspect. I think it now boils down to whether or not you want tracks.


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Devin Crane
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 4:09:00 pm

[Gary Huff] "I really don't think there's any disagreement about this aspect. I think it now boils down to whether or not you want tracks."

Or want to pay a subscription and rely on the cloud.



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Shawn Miller
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 4:39:24 pm

[Devin Crane] "[Gary Huff] "I really don't think there's any disagreement about this aspect. I think it now boils down to whether or not you want tracks."

Or want to pay a subscription and rely on the cloud."


Assuming you believe that your only NLE options are FCPX or PPro CC... otherwise, there seem to be other good choices on the field (Avid, Lightworks, Resolve (someday), Edius, Vegas, etc).

Shawn



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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 4:54:11 pm

[Gary Huff] "I really don't think there's any disagreement about this aspect."

I know, we do still get the odd post on here though and the thought still remains amongst a lot of Editors I know

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 5:24:07 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 26, 2014 at 5:25:19 pm

[Steve Connor] "I know, we do still get the odd post on here though and the thought still remains amongst a lot of Editors I know"

Yep. And to the earlier point, a lot of editors are still scared of the timeline. People on the fence sometimes give more credence to opinions of people who don't use X rather than those who do. Odd. This was a pretty cool article and workflow though. I'd like one of their systems please. ;-)


-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 8:25:38 pm

I'm literally blown away at the Atlanta Cutters group. They literally look at X users as sub class. The barely even acknowledge it's existence. But the connection between Motion and FCP X should be a huge discussion point. Instead it's somewhat predictable. When the Adobe guys were there showing off CC 2014 (hey adobe I thought there weren't going to be versions anymore?) everyone oohed and aaaahed over the ability to edit AE text from within premiere. A feature FCP has had for what, a decade and WITH drop zones? I guess if we could have a demonstration on publishing it might blow their minds. And if they saw rigging in action there's no telling.

I figure rigging is likely the killer feature of AE 2015. Hopefully we'll have send to motion back by then. That's one of the 3 or 4 killer feature X needs to add to push them into the forefront. Roles has already been shown to be more versatile than tracks. so if the timeline remains the only excuse people have left, so be it.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 8:38:43 pm

[Bret Williams] "When the Adobe guys were there showing off CC 2014 (hey adobe I thought there weren't going to be versions anymore?) "

Adobe never said versioning was going away. In fact Adobe employees openly talked about versioning. The vanishing of versioning, like the idea that Photoshop et al would now run 'in the cloud' like Google Docs, was bad information, born out of ignorance, that was passed along as gospel because, well, it's the Internet and on the Internet there are some people that think Steven Spielberg killed a triceratops.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 9:15:24 pm

I guess I was more focusing on Adobes continual talk that the cloud will be better because you'll get the updates as they're available, not in the big yearly updates. But really not much has changed. When I had the boxed set, we got a number of updates throughout the year over the internet. There's nothing about CC that empowers that any more or less. True, they did have a couple larger than usual releases, but that was adobes choice. There's no reAson they couldn't have done that before. And of course a year later the big feature up came as 2014. In fact, the features were demoed and teased months before 2014 was released. IOW we had to wait for the big yearly release. So there's nothing new except the payment structure. The rest is hype. No reason it couldn't have been a boxed set with a separate CC subscription for the syncing, fonts, etc.


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Ryan Holmes
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 1:53:16 pm

[Bret Williams] " guess I was more focusing on Adobes continual talk that the cloud will be better because you'll get the updates as they're available, not in the big yearly updates. But really not much has changed. When I had the boxed set, we got a number of updates throughout the year over the internet. There's nothing about CC that empowers that any more or less."

Bret, just to be clear - with the boxed set (CS4, CS5, CS6) the updates that were pushed were for bug fixes, not new features. This past year Adobe has added features along side of bug fixes for nearly all apps (print, photo, and video). And this has been discussed at length over in the Adobe debate forums. Just to make you aware the change that is created by Adobe (and others, Apple included) moving their software to cloud delivery is largely tied to the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation (or SOX) which has had unintended consequences for software developed (I'm assuming untended here as the legislation happened in the wake of major corporate accounting scandals - Enron, Tyco International, WorldCom, Adelhia, etc.). Walter Soyka has written numerous posts about this and provided a pretty good explanation on why Adobe's CC model is a justifiable move for Adobe to make to try to add more value to their customers more quickly. Here's one from earlier this year: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/378/6600

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 2:39:15 pm

I know nothing of lawsuits and accounting, etc. But that doesn't really matter to the consumer. What obviously matters is the extra cost/profit. Now I'm all for profit. And as an Adobe shareholder it's been great. But as an Adobe user, I've taken a pass after 2 years of CC. The first, with CS6, provided zero major updates during the year. Yes, CC had a decent .1 update. As did Adobe products in the past. Like I said before, just making it a subscription model doesn't prevent Adobe from distributing updates when they feel like it. Unless that's part of the accounting scandal you speak of. Not sure you're old enough to remember, but the .1 update was a frequent trend wit Adobe in it's earlier days, even before web distribution. AE 3.1, 4.1 were big updates that came around 6 months after the .0. We're talking late 90s now, just to date myself. There may have been a minor charge just because they actually mailed out a manual update along with new discs and even a dongle possibly.

All that aside, my beef with CC is the cost. As a small company, working internally mostly, I don't always need the latest greatest. But I do use the whole gamut of Adobe stuff from print to web to video to animation. When CS6 came out I was on the Master Collection CS5. 5.5 wasn't enough of an upgrade to warrant the $500 bucks or whatever it was. Might have been more I don't remember. And when CS6 came along they were offering the subscription to budge holders for $30/month. Considering the box set upgrade was along the lines of $600 I went for the nearly half price subscription. But then you're stuck. I can't upgrade my CS5 serial to CS6 now as that serial upgrade has been used for the 1 year cheap CS6 subscription. So I continued on with CC for a year at full price. So now I'm stuck in the loop of spending $600 a year whereas I'd previously update the master collection every other version, costing on average half as much per year. And that's for someone holding the master collection. Someone using only 2 or 3 apps from say the production bundle could update every year for much less than the current $600/year price tag. And if they were ever in a bind they could just make due with an old version for years and years.

But that's all been beaten to death. it's pretty obvious that CC is no biggie for corporations that were master collection and updating every year. Features come quicker/easier, there's some cloud stuff, you can install on separate systems and turn them on/off. You can have it on PC or Mac. It's nice, sure. But the downside that mostly affects the small business or the individual hobbyist is the huge extra cost and the life lock-in if you want to be able to open your CC projects in the future. If nothing else it's a "fee" to rent a single app for a month just to open some old project for consolidating and housekeeping. it's a tremendous revenue stream for Adobe, but they've certainly left the smaller companies and individuals to either scrape up hundreds and hundreds more a year or to find alternatives. As a user of FCP X, I've found my alternatives. Motion for all new projects. It's integration is far superior anyway for now. And CS5 for any PS and Ai needs. I've got iDraw and Pixelmator as well because I don't count on CS5 functioning too much longer. If I have to revisit a CS6 or CC project I pay by the month.

So the whole Motion/FCP X/3rd party solutions route so far cost about $460 for life. Unless Apple changes their app store update pricing (free) policies. But it's been 3 years for X/Motion/Compressor and iDraw and PixelMator likely won't be charging for any major updates any time soon either. I suggest cutting to the Adobe cord if one can. For me it's an experiment. Last year I spent $600 on Adobe. Many months I didn't need them. Thery're still installed and ready to go if I need them in a matter of minutes. I won't be losing any work over it. But I'm going the month to month route and need them less than I thought.

/rant


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Ryan Holmes
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:20:10 pm
Last Edited By Ryan Holmes on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:28:17 pm

[Bret Williams] "Like I said before, just making it a subscription model doesn't prevent Adobe from distributing updates when they feel like it."

I think we need to be more specific about the term "update." Feature updates are new or additional features added to the software that did not exist before vs bug fixes which allow the software to run more efficiently or stable on a given platform. It sounds like you're using the term update interchangeably between features and bugs. Since 2002, due to SOX and the cost of manufacturing/shipping discs no software developer would push feature updates quickly, typically it was 12-24 months between major releases (or even longer for Operating Systems).


[Bret Williams] "The first, with CS6, provided zero major updates during the year."

That's because legally, when shipping discs, they are not allowed to offer feature updates for free. So those get pushed to a once-per-year party where you try to draw the users into upgrading to the next version. Apple did this with Final Cut for nearly a decade...same legislation, same problem. Moving to a digital delivery method allows Apple to deliver all your software updates for "free" (while making money on their hardware) and Adobe moved to a subscription model since their only revenue stream is software (free updates for life don't really work for them).

Also, CC 2014 has already had an extra feature update since it was released in June.


[Bret Williams] "and the life lock-in if you want to be able to open your CC projects in the future."

[Darren Roark] " the most popular reason people don't like it is because they heard somewhere it sucks. The second most popular is that Apple is untrustworthy and could just EOL it at any second, third most popular, the interface is too cute and toy like, fourth, no tracks. "

I think just as FCPX users have their list of "why people won't use FCPX" Adobe users have their own. Number 1 on that list is probably this idea of "lock-in," but you solved it yourself later in the paragraph:
[Bret Williams] "If I have to revisit a CS6 or CC project I pay by the month." Or as I've been doing since FCP6, part of the project archive is an interchangeable format - AAF, XML, OMF, EDL - to be able to move the project to another software as needed in the future. Because I don't expect to be using the same software in the future that I'm using now.

Ryan Holmes
http://www.ryanholmes.me
@CutColorPost


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 3:38:22 pm

[Ryan Holmes] "[Bret Williams] "If I have to revisit a CS6 or CC project I pay by the month." Or as I've been doing since FCP6, part of the project archive is an interchangeable format - AAF, XML, OMF, EDL - to be able to move the project to another software as needed in the future. Because I don't expect to be using the same software in the future that I'm using now."

A nice concession for Adobe might be to allow their software to open in a sort of viewer mode. You could view your projects and you could export other formats (XML, EDL, AAF, etc) of your projects. But you wouldn't be able to make changes to the project without paying a monthly rental.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 5:05:58 pm
Last Edited By Dennis Radeke on Aug 28, 2014 at 5:26:26 pm

[Bret Williams] "I'm literally blown away at the Atlanta Cutters group. They literally look at X users as sub class. The barely even acknowledge it's existence. But the connection between Motion and FCP X should be a huge discussion point. Instead it's somewhat predictable. When the Adobe guys were there showing off CC 2014 (hey adobe I thought there weren't going to be versions anymore?) everyone oohed and aaaahed over the ability to edit AE text from within premiere. A feature FCP has had for what, a decade and WITH drop zones? I guess if we could have a demonstration on publishing it might blow their minds. And if they saw rigging in action there's no telling."

Hi ya Bret,

First, I hope you came up and introduced yourself as I was there at the meeting and would have appreciated meeting you in person. Perhaps we did and its my senile memory playing tricks on me. Regardless, let me address your points.

Version numbers: Overall, it's still Creative Cloud, but you need to be able to distinguish a release from another so it makes sense. I think it makes sense and hope it doesn't get you too upset.

Live Text: Let me give acknowledgement that FCP/Motion had this functionality before us. Clearly having the ability to edit the text without going into a tool like After Effects isn't unique and something Adobe has wanted to do for some time and will continue to develop.

That said, there are ALWAYS going to be features or workflows that some programs have before others. That is true for all NLEs. What I like about Adobe is that we try to admit when it should be, 'yeah, we should have this a while ago, but other things took priority.' Certainly, that's what I communicate when I talk with customers and if you had spoken with me, I hope I would have said that.

A couple of examples where Premiere Pro led the way would be when it went 64-bit native several years before all but Sony Vegas. We were also the first to truly tap into the GPU and remain the leader in that regard. I could go on (and on!) but you get the idea.

As for the focus of user groups, they stand or fall based on the focus of the community and their needs.

Thanks for the feedback,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 28, 2014 at 5:57:37 pm

Hey Dennis! Yeah I did meet you briefly at both the Cutters meetings. I was hoping to win the subscription ya'll we're giving away as mine was just expiring and I would have rather put off the decision whether to focus more on Motion and drop my subscription.

The cutters meetings are great overall. I'm just amazed at how when anyone mentions they're an X editor the general response, whether in jest or not, is "oh, you're the guy!" The meetings started right around the time X pissed everyone off and that legacy seems to still remain. But I could be imagining things. I'm sure there's no actual conspiracy or anything. They did have a demo of FCP X at their first meeting. I wasn't there, but I can't imagine it went over well in July 2011! But I think it's time to have someone like the guys at Ripple Training come by and give away some training and show off Rigging and publishing.

Adobe, subscription model aside, is making great strides. I wish I could support it more. The upside for myself, and likely many others is that Motion is getting another look from us long time AE veterans. I still prefer precomposing over groups and the render que over Motion's more basic exporting but the real time engine of Motion and the rigging and publishing are just light years ahead of AE.

[Dennis Radeke] "A couple of examples would be Premiere Pro went 64-bit native several years before all but Sony Vegas. We were also the first to truly tap into the GPU and remain the leader in that regard. I could go on (and on!) but you get the idea."

Well, as a Mac user you probably understand I disagree somewhat. As I mentioned above, AE (unless CC14 is some amazing change - I know you were working on it) is still stuck in render cache land where in Motion I can pretty much edit (fi I wanted to) video and fx in realtime even in dynamic mode. And I've always had Premiere as part of a bundle, since CS3 or 4 when Adobe brought it back to Mac, and because it didn't support whatever graphics card I had it's 64bitness still didn't beat the RT I could get with 7 and later X. I had the full blown 2011 iMac, the one Resolve and Smoke was being demoed on at the time, and still, the high end card wasn't officially supported by Adobe. They hadn't tested it fully or something like that. Apple only had about what, 4 cards worth testing at the time and AE was putting out cool new updates like ray tracing which were all but useless without card support. mObject or element3D to the rescue!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 29, 2014 at 11:57:07 am

[Bret Williams] " Hey Dennis! Yeah I did meet you briefly at both the Cutters meetings."

Well, lets make sure you introduce yourself next time so I can put the face with the forum!

[Bret Williams] "Adobe, subscription model aside, is making great strides. I wish I could support it more. The upside for myself, and likely many others is that Motion is getting another look from us long time AE veterans. I still prefer precomposing over groups and the render que over Motion's more basic exporting but the real time engine of Motion and the rigging and publishing are just light years ahead of AE."

Well as I said, there are good things about every program. However, at the risk of coming off a tad haughty (and I don't mean to), I think the amount of possibility that After Effects offers, the 3rd party ecosystem, the absolutely infinite amount of tutorials, its 20+ year pedigree, its versatility at both motion graphics and visual effects, etc. put it just a tiny bit in front of Motion. ;-)

[Bret Williams] "Well, as a Mac user you probably understand I disagree somewhat."

Well, I was speaking specifically about Premiere Pro performance in my example and not After Effects, but as a rule, Adobe absolutely, positively never wants to make the OS (Mac or PC) a part of your decision. We strive to have performance parity across both platforms at all times. And when we have comparable on both Mac and PC we do pretty well IMO.

[Bret Williams] "As I mentioned above, AE is still stuck in render cache land"

There are a lot of reasons for why this is but I will start with the most important part... Yes, we agree. And we're working very hard to make that better. In the past, if you asked a user which would he/she rather have nifty feature ABC or make it faster, most people have said in the past, "give me the feature."

Another way to I describe After Effects is thusly: You can take anything into it, do anything to it and spit out anything you want. Yes, somewhat of an exaggeration but you get the idea. We support almost anything and can do almost anything. With that, comes a certain amount of computational intensity when it comes to previewing frames! On top of that, we strive to give many options in terms of balancing accuracy/visual quality vs. speed of previewing as I'm sure you're already familiar with.

[Bret Williams] "CS3 or 4 when Adobe brought it back to Mac, and because it didn't support whatever graphics card I had it's 64bitness still didn't beat the RT I could get with 7 and later X."

Comparing the real-time capabilities of CS3 to where we are now is like comparing a broken bicycle to a Ferrari. I know you're very happy with FCP X and that's great, but if and when you have an opportunity, give the latest version of Premiere Pro a spin on a good Mac and tell me what you think.

Thanks for the conversation,
Dennis - Adobe guy


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 29, 2014 at 1:08:52 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Thanks for the conversation,
Dennis - Adobe guy"


Hey Dennis, hopefully you've been at this long enough to never take anything on these forums personally. It's probably not said enough but I know you and Kevin and anyone else from Adobe that sticks their neck out here is appreciated. it's great to have such a direct connection for tips, or to vent at. And obviously we vent at everyone, Apple, Adobe, Avid, whoever. My personal gripe is with the CC model and not really with the state of the software. Everything is amazing and nobody's happy, right? When I first started editing it was on the VideoCube and I had no expectations and everything WAS amazing. I guess NLEs have gone from revolutionary to evolutionary.


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Darren Roark
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 9:36:41 pm

[Gary Huff] "I really don't think there's any disagreement about this aspect. I think it now boils down to whether or not you want tracks.
"


I disagree, the most popular reason people don't like it is because they heard somewhere it sucks. The second most popular is that Apple is untrustworthy and could just EOL it at any second, third most popular, the interface is too cute and toy like, fourth, no tracks.

OK fine, it made the top five. I take back my disagreeing.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 10:26:42 am

[Darren Roark] "the interface is too cute and toy like,"

Or clean and elegant. Certainly better than Premiere which feels plastic and overly forced technical looking. Give me simple, clean and elegant any day.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Gary Huff
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 11:57:03 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Or clean and elegant."

No, that won't be the case until the UX is tweaked to be in line with Yosemite. It's still got that heavy iOS6 vibe going on.


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Marcus Moore
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 3:19:29 pm

I'm curious to see if Apple does a UX revamp of ProApps to go along with OSX this fall. Apple has been quick to get ProApps onboard OS changes in the past- see the 10.0.5 update to FCP X to go along with the release of the Retina MacBookPro. Pretty much simultaneous if I remember correctly.

With all the ProApps now sharing a common design language, I wonder how that sort of shift is handled? Do they all just work from the same graphical asset toolkit, or could there even be an internal ProApps "Xcode", making any global shifts across ProApps easier for all the teams.


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 3:48:36 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Do they all just work from the same graphical asset toolkit,"

I believe they do. They pull some stuff from the OS UI kit, but the majority of it comes from either within the apps, or some sort of common repository. We can always look to iMovie for clues, but it's more closely tied to the OS I think. I don't imagine they'll take it that far. Which means, of course, they will. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 8:39:36 pm

And they trust Adobe that actually DID ditch the Mac platform for about what 4, 5, 6 years? And Avid who was about to ditch the Mac platform until they heard wind of FCP 1.0. Apple half got into this business because they could no longer trust that the companies that they helped thrive, would continue to produce software for their platform. Office and IE were always lagging behind their counterparts, so out comes Safari, Pages, and Numbers.

And out of the 3 As, I'd have to say that X is the most professional looking. I guess Resolve looks like a toy now too?

I'll rehash my image I posted at some point-



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Steve Connor
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 8:47:13 pm

[Bret Williams] "And out of the 3 As, I'd have to say that X is the most professional looking. I guess Resolve looks like a toy now too? "

That should stir the pot nicely

No sig on my posts as it's apparently very old fashioned


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 27, 2014 at 9:06:44 pm

Well they did copy the interface look pretty much to the letter. But maybe people do think it looks like a toy. There are those that aren't completely excited about resolves focus on x.


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David Mathis
Re: FCP X and the Tour de France
on Aug 26, 2014 at 7:59:02 pm

Very solid system and great explanation of the workflow involved. Going to write Santa and ask for a system like that, just another 4 months to Christmas!

camera operator | editor | production assistant


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