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There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.

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Charlie Austin
There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 6:58:33 pm

I've had a change of heart. After some technical "research" I now conclude that there is no such thing as an asymmetrical dissolve.

The only way to have an asymmetrical transition is with a discrete A/B cut with opacity/level fades of varying lengths. All you're doing with an "asymmetrical" dissolve is shifting the cut point between your two clips. Think about it... keep thinking for a while before you reply. :-)

A 30f "dissolve" is using a symmetrical amount of A/B media. The only thing you change with an "asymmetric dissolve" is the edit point. Here's an example from an ancient thread...

lets say you wanted a 30 frame transition, but wanted it to be asymmetrical in that you wanted it to start 10 frames before the edit point and then continue on for 20 frames after the edit point. That would be the same thing as rolling the edit point in 5 frames to the right, and then putting a centered transition. The start and end frames used in both instances would be identical

Jerry is correct, the others are wrong.

You can change the perceived symmetry of a dissolve by changing the ease in/out amounts of the dissolve effect, which, of course you can do easily in X. It is still symmetrical though. Having the ability to adjust the mid-point of a dissolve effect without moving it is nice visually, but that's all it's really good for. Simply sliding a centered dissolve effect in the timeline accomplishes the exact same thing.

So, to sum up. There is no such thing as an asymmetrical dissolve transition effect. Not in Pr, or FCP 7, or X or anything. The only way to do an asymmetrical transition, one where say, the A side fees out quickly and the B side fades ups slowly, using an unequal number of frames on either side, is by doing a discrete A/B overlap and adjusting the fade handles asymmetrically. As I have done here. Using a dissolve effect on 2 clips in the same track or storyline is always symmetrical.

I look forward to your (incorrect) responses. ;-)

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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:25:58 pm

ah charlie you poor soul. You're trying so very hard there, to equate S-curve setting on your fade, with the ability set, in a keystroke or two, an audio dissolve say of 15 frames on the left, and three frames on the right. You don't know how to do that in X, because you can't - so you do that really tortuous thing where you expand clip components and do the 12-15 keystrokes jeff outlined.

man, you really having difficulty here aren't you? I think it's maybe melting your head a little bud. :)

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:31:38 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:49:31 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "man, you really having difficulty here aren't you?"

It is you having difficulty Aindreas. Think about it. "an audio dissolve say of 15 frames on the left, and three frames on the right." is not asymmetric. it's an 18 frame dissolve, but sliding a centered dissolve so the transition midpoint occurs in the same place as your dissolve with an off-center edit point is exactly the same thing. Think harder. ;-)

---edited for typos and unclear description.---
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:43:40 pm

ah god love you. What are you trying to convince yourself of charlie?
The basic issue that's been kicking around is the workflow necessitated by its absence in X.

Now you seem to be trying to say the feature somehow doesn't semantically exist or something??
dear lord. You need to relax bud, warm up a nice snack or something.

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:53:15 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Now you seem to be trying to say the feature somehow doesn't semantically exist or something?? "

No. I'm saying it doesn't physically exist unless you split out the A/B clips. This isn't about what is or isn't in FCP X. It has nothing to with it really other than the discussion inspired the thought. The topic I referenced was actually discussing FCP "classic" (no asymmetric dissolves!!!) VS. Avid. I know your views on FCP X. ;-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:05:39 pm

You guys are apples and oranging it, aren't you? Charlie, you are making the point that an "asymmetrical" edit, in the traditional sense, really isn't, because all its doing is moving the center point of the cut within the transition as opposed to on the timeline, and Aindreas is pointing out the convenience of having a tool, vis a vis the transition, to do that.

Yes, I've always felt that the naming of an "asymmetrical" transition was misguided, and yes, the only way to make it truly asymmetrical would be separate, unmatched overlapping transitions, that would generally have the effect of adding black to one of the sides.

Aindreas, on the other hand, is pointing out the usefulness of having the positioning built into the transition, itself, which is something I agree with.

Or, am I missing something?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:08:43 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Aindreas, on the other hand, is pointing out the usefulness of having the positioning built into the transition, itself, which is something I agree with."

I have to say, I've never really understood why this is a feature that anybody would actually want since it's purely cosmetic rather than functional. And a lot of the editors I've worked with have been confused about what it actually happening here which is far less sophisticated than they are usually thinking.

Simon Ubsdell
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:42:00 pm

am I gone bonkers so? how do you mean simon?

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:09:59 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:18:48 pm

[Chris Harlan] "You guys are apples and oranging it, aren't you? Charlie, you are making the point that an "asymmetrical" edit, in the traditional sense, really isn't, because all its doing is moving the center point of the cut within the transition as opposed to on the timeline, and Aindreas is pointing out the convenience of having a tool, vis a vis the transition, to do that.
"


But it's fun isn't it? And yes, i too agree that having the ability to move the center point within the transition would be nice. Some transitions in X do, the dissolve doesn't yet, so you need to slide it. I'm not sure that's Aindreas' argument though... :-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:54:39 pm

I have not yet read the rest of the thread below, but I always assumed an asymmetrical transition (where you could slide the middle point) wasn't just moving the cut point. On a dissolve, for example, the middle point is where both a and b have reached 50% opacity. I always assumed that an asymmetrical dissolve was one in which you reached the 50% point faster than you left it, or vice versa. IOW, it might take 10 frames for A and B to reach 50% opacity, but then 30 frames to complete their transition to 100% and 0%.

And it's not that you wouldn't ever want to do it. I do it all the time manually on flash to white. I dissolve to white with about 3 frames, then finish the dissolve out in 6 or 9 frames.


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:04:42 pm

[Bret Williams] "I always assumed that an asymmetrical dissolve was one in which you reached the 50% point faster than you left it, or vice versa. IOW, it might take 10 frames for A and B to reach 50% opacity, but then 30 frames to complete their transition to 100% and 0%"

I thought so too, turns out that's not the case with a dissolve even though the UI representation of the effect in the timeline may look like it is.. You can achieve the effect above, but you have to do more than just slap a dissolve on it. You'd need to keyframe each clips opacity /level within the dissolve, or A/B it.

[Bret Williams] "And it's not that you wouldn't ever want to do it. I do it all the time manually on flash to white. I dissolve to white with about 3 frames, then finish the dissolve out in 6 or 9 frames."

I do the same thing with white flashes, but it's 2 separate (head/tail) dissolves right?

-------------------------------------------------------------

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:22:19 am

With a white flash I'd simply place a white slug above, and yes do two dissolves. Fade in, and fade out. The fade out being longer than the fade in.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:53:10 pm

well yes - but if you exaggerate it enough to weight one side over the other, the cut centre point analogy fails doesn't it?

http://imgur.com/4T53wD4,4O9CNGn,24nB3ee#0

the cut point there remains the same throughout, a spoon is still a spoon as it were, then there is a default transition,
and then it is weighted heavily to favour the incoming audio - the mix to the incoming edit is pretty smooth, occurs over like a bar hypothetically or whatever, and the trailing mix is just a couple of frames.


What it is, effectively, is the same as charlie's operation where he expands audio components, sets a custom edit overlap for both clips, fiddles with fade gui handles and generally spends an eternity doing what took me one keystroke and two mouse clicks.
so, you know, in summation, X is bad and should feel bad about itself.

crystal clear, you need me on that wall, code red. the end.

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Bret Williams
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:59:52 pm

On your example, one would simply apply the audio transition and then slide it back to suit. Your transition in your example is just a cross fade. The center of the cross fade is in the center of the cross fade. All it's doing is keeping your cut point where it is. Just a variation of the "start on edit or end on edit" function. Those are not asymmetric either. At least not in my book.


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:10:16 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:13:45 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "What it is, effectively, is the same as charlie's operation where he expands audio components, sets a custom edit overlap for both clips, fiddles with fade gui handles and generally spends an eternity doing what took me one keystroke and two mouse clicks.
so, you know, in summation, X is bad and should feel bad about itself. "


lol.. no. it's not actually. Turns out I was trying to metaphorically prove the existence of Santa Clause. What it is the same as, is if I put a centered dissolve on a cut point that lined it up where your dissolve begins and ends when you adjusted the cut point within your dissolve transition effect. What you are changing is not the center point of the dissolve.

X is very insecure from all the bullying, but doesn't need to be. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:40:21 pm

[Charlie Austin] "What it is the same as, is if I put a centred dissolve on a cut point that lined it up where your dissolve begins and ends when you adjusted the cut point within your dissolve transition effect. What you are changing is not the centre point of the dissolve."

OK - so charlie that's flat out wrong. That cut point, lets say represents the stitch in two bars of a track, one from earlier, one from later. I want to patch it with a long dissolve to run it in, and get out with a very short dissolve because the outgoing music changes sharply after that. that's my patch. I'm bang on my edit point and that's the cross fade i need - a really long fade up for the incoming bar blending it in - and an extremely short fade on the exit. there isn't any logic where that is actually a centred fade in an other form. or that a different edit point with a centred fade is the same thing. It isn't chum.

The edit point needs to be where it is, what you are proposing shifting the edit point to allow a centred dissolve to cover the same turf does not fly.
that's just incorrect charlie.

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:57:06 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:06:26 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "OK - so charlie that's flat out wrong. That cut point, lets say represents the stitch in two bars of a track, one from earlier, one from later. I want to patch it with a long dissolve to run it in, and get out with a very short dissolve because the outgoing music changes sharply after that. that's my patch"

No, it's not wrong. You can't do that with a standard dissolve transition. I understand the confusion, I was confused too. Thus my confusing attempts to recreate it. Again, the upper dissolve is what was heralded by you guys as "asymmetric", but it's not. The two dissolves below are exactly the same. Try it. do the same with your own cue. listen to each one. You are just changing the cut point, not the dissolves' midpoint.



-------------------------------------------------------------

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:17:07 pm

but no - charlie - you do have a through edit there right? - I could right click that edit and join through edit - yes? It seems that way from the waveform. Do you have the through edit indicators turned off?
because it looks like what you've done there is effectively a roll edit on a through edit to get to your centred dissolve functioning in what seems the same manner.

the consequences there are nil for the roll of the edit point. you understand that right?

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:22:17 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:32:19 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but no - charlie - you do have a through edit there right? - I could right click that edit and join through edit - yes? It seems that way from the waveform. Do you have the through edit indicators turned off?
because it looks like what you've done there is effectively a roll edit on a through edit to get to your centred dissolve functioning in what seems the same manner.

the consequences there are nil for the roll of the edit point. you understand that right?"


I may have when I snapped the pic, but it doesn't matter. I rolled it (and by that I mean slipped the outgoing clip... semantics) 3 or 4 seconds to make sure just now. It's exactly the same.

Just try it. cut a chunk out of a clip and align the two halfs badly so you can hear a big difference. Make a copy on another track. Put your visually off-center dissolve on the top clip. put a centered dissolve in exactly the same place below it as I have. Listen to each one. They. Are. The. Same.

This has nothing to do with whatever NLE you or I choose. It's math.

-------------------------------------------------------------

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:31:12 pm

Mmmmm.

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Chris Harlan
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:59:49 pm

I've only ever done what you're talking about with layered tracks, and dissolves or key-framing on each of the tracks. That's on Avid, Legend, and Pr, as well as many others. Could be me, I suppose--I didn't know you could sub-frame cut audio tracks on 7 until I was nearly ready to abandon it.


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:11:40 am

[Chris Harlan] "I've only ever done what you're talking about with layered tracks, and dissolves or key-framing on each of the tracks. That's on Avid, Legend, and Pr, as well as many others. Could be me, I suppose--I didn't know you could sub-frame cut audio tracks on 7 until I was nearly ready to abandon it."

Me too. This whole thing came up when someone said you can't do asymmetrical dissolves in FCP X, and you can in Pr and FCP 7 etc. I thought you could, and set out on a quixotic journey to illustrate it. Which, to be fair, was confusing, as I never used dissolves for this either. I always A/B stuff and tweak the fades.

Then, after poking around, I realized that you can't do that with a dissolve in anything (without keyframing within it or something) thus this post. I'm not the only one who's unclear on this, so i wanted to toss it out. As I said, I did discover a nifty little trick in X on my journey.

On a completely unrelated note... you running MC 8? If so, anything worth upgrading from 7, particularly for someone who barely uses it? And saying "barely" is being generous. :-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:18:34 am

[Charlie Austin] "On a completely unrelated note... you running MC 8? If so, anything worth upgrading from 7, particularly for someone who barely uses it? And saying "barely" is being generous. :-)"

I've been crazy busy, so I could be wrong, but as I understand it, 8 is currently the rental version of 7, and there are no differences, yet.


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:24:16 am

[Chris Harlan] "I've been crazy busy, so I could be wrong, but as I understand it, 8 is currently the rental version of 7, and there are no differences, yet.
"


That may be, there's separate DL for 8 vs. 7, but maybe its because of how the license works. Just curious... Thanks!

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Chris Harlan
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:29:54 am

Well, you made me look!

8.1 does have some changes. Little ones but nice. You can finally invisible a clip or track. Its worth the upgrade for me!



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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:55:55 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:56:51 am

[Chris Harlan] "Well, you made me look!

8.1 does have some changes. Little ones but nice. You can finally invisible a clip or track. Its worth the upgrade for me!"


Well, that only took 20 years. lol I may do it, but since it's not even close to being my main axe it's a bit hard to justify the 200-something they want. I DL'd it the other day... maybe I'll take the demo for a test drive...

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~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Lawrence
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 1:49:18 am
Last Edited By David Lawrence on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:06:34 am

[Charlie Austin] "The two dissolves below are exactly the same. Try it. do the same with your own cue. listen to each one. You are just changing the cut point, not the dissolves' midpoint."

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie...

Let me show you something I just tried in a Brand New NLE!





Pretty amazing difference for something that doesn't exist. ;)

And I can add that dissolve... wait for it... in a single key press! :)

BTW, Resolve 11 also has audio fade handles, great for those times when you absolutely, positively have to use a mouse. Just kidding, they're really sweet. Now if we could just have an option to turn off those gimmicky rectified waveforms... ;)

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:11:17 am

[David Lawrence] "Pretty amazing difference for something that doesn't exist. ;)

And I can add that dissolve... wait for it... with a single key press! :)"


David, you haven't thought this through, or read this thread. That is not an asymmetric dissolve at all, as such a thing does not exist. All you've done is change the position of the dissolve relative to the cut point. Sorry, I've done the math. if I put a centered dissolve on a copy of that media, matching the same position as any of yours, it would be the same.

And I actually can add a dissolve effect with a single keystroke in X. Yes, you can adjust the cut point within the effect in other NLE's, where I have to slide the actual transition. Yay! The fact remains:

It. Is. The. Same. Thing. ;-)


[David Lawrence] "Let me show you something I just tried in a Brand New NLE!
"

New? Maybe to you. I've been using it since sometime in April or May. :-)

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~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 12:23:02 am

[Charlie Austin] "David, you haven't thought this through, or read this thread. That is not an asymmetric dissolve at all, as such a thing does not exist. All you've done is change the position of the dissolve relative to the cut point. Sorry, I've done the math. if I put a centered dissolve on a copy of that media, matching the same position as any of yours, it would be the same. "


feels nearly high handed all that. I feel like an idiot myself on this, but as an audio professional who started out scratching tape with razor blades thirty years ago, it's quite odd that you only came to the realisation of the nature of constant power audio dissolves a few days into the discussion.

That Lawrence dude does seems pretty wild aces brains to me, and hey - the skywalker editdroid background could be snuff for some respect.

all that said your milage might seriously vary charlie.

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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 12:34:39 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "feels nearly high handed all that. I feel like an idiot myself on this, but as an audio professional who started out scratching tape with razor blades thirty years ago, it's quite odd that you only came to the realisation of the nature of constant power audio dissolves a few days into the discussion. "

It was late, and i didn't feel like starting it all over. Please feel free to look at some of the condescending comments tossed my way over the preceding threads though. I think I was pretty... fair. ;-)

And I agree about the constant power thing, it was a "duh!' moment for sure. I was honestly bamboozled by the fancy "asymmetric dissolves" that I was assured Pr had. Then I actually opened Pr, poked around and realized that there was nothing "new". Just a more flexible transition alignment feature. Live and learn. I guess if I used dissolves more it wouldn't have taken so long.

In any case, I apologize if I appeared high-handed.

-------------------------------------------------------------

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~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 12:47:30 am

Mmmm.

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Walter Soyka
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:19:41 am

Charlie is right on, and a clearer example might be dissolving from absolute silence to tone. Export and look at the resulting waveforms.

If so-called asymmetric dissolves could, say, come in slow and go out fast, they would have an inflection point at the cut's location, with a lower slope before and a higher one after.

Instead, you'll see a constant curve, no inflection, indicating steady output from the transition around a (virtually) re-positioned cut point. Asymmetric (sic) edits are still symmetrical, just around a different center than defined by the editor on the timeline.

(Interestingly, this is the first example of a timeline modifier I can think of, where an edit point is maintained in the UI and programmatically modified for output -- an idea I put forward in the destructive versus non-destructive thread.)

Walter Soyka
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David Lawrence
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:46:01 am

[Walter Soyka] "Charlie is right on, and a clearer example might be dissolving from absolute silence to tone. Export and look at the resulting waveforms."

Guys,

Seriously, you're missing the point.

• Start on edit
• Center on edit
• End on edit

These are three different alignments for a transition.

They give you three different timing results with the same cut point.

You're making a semantic argument. Call them asymmetrical or call them Shirley, I really don't care. The point is control of transition alignment, something we currently don't have in FCPX without jumping thru hoops.

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Walter Soyka
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:55:38 am

[David Lawrence] "Guys, Seriously, you're missing the point.
• Start on edit
• Center on edit
• End on edit"


I think there is a difference between transition alignment and what was being referred to as an asymmetrical transition (but is in fact symmetrical with a custom alignment).

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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David Lawrence
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:05:56 am

[Walter Soyka] "I think there is a difference between transition alignment and what was being referred to as an asymmetrical transition (but is in fact symmetrical with a custom alignment)."

I'm really not attached to the name, call it whatever you like. My point has always been about the functionality.

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vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Walter Soyka
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:13:50 am

[David Lawrence] "I'm really not attached to the name, call it whatever you like. My point has always been about the functionality."

There are multiple discussions going on here; one was definitely about transitions of non-constant rates. This is what Charlie was (rightly) calling shenanigans on.

I think your point, which is different than what I think Charlie is discussing in this thread, also stands.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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David Lawrence
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:33:38 am

[Walter Soyka] "There are multiple discussions going on here; one was definitely about transitions of non-constant rates. This is what Charlie was (rightly) calling shenanigans on.

I think your point, which is different than what I think Charlie is discussing in this thread, also stands."


Gotcha, I've only skimmed the discussions about rates because it's way more complex then what I need. ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 8:20:04 am

I may possibly have over-egged the position a tad. It was going so well....

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 8:22:32 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "I may possibly have over-egged the position a tad. It was going so well...."

It was understandable, you were on a roll with the future microwave thing

Steve Connor

Hoping to become a pedant


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:08:01 pm

yep. ...then you get greedy and taunty. and that's why we can't have nice things.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 4:26:09 am

[David Lawrence] "The point is control of transition alignment, something we currently don't have in FCPX without jumping thru hoops.
"


Well, that's the thing. As Walter points out below, there are a couple "discussions" here and they kind of got conflated. My fault as much as anyone. So, now that the points are clear, I'll just say that I do not have to "jump through hoops" to change the alignment of a transition in X. I apply it with 1 click, and then move it if needed in about the same amount of time it takes to right click and change the alignment. Or I would, if I used dissolves. ;-)

The "hoops" were people, including myself, trying to create an actual "asymmetric dissolve" in X. This was convoluted and hoopy because, as it turns out, no such thing exists.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:27:52 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:42:57 pm

I'll probably get in trouble by trying to help, but Aindreas, what Charlie's saying is that the rate of the dissolve up and the rate of the dissolve rate down don't really matter. This is because both sources are active and equal partners in a DISSOLVE by definition. If you were going from Source A to black and coming into Source B from black, then shifting the ramp durations would make a difference. But in a simple dissolve, the ONLY thing you can change is the mixture of two fixed source over a fixed durations.

Say you shift your crossover (edit) point downstream to when 90% of the dissolve is source A and 20% is source B. There's STILL a point of 50/50 equilibrium - it's just now ahead of your cut. And it's exactly like not having shifted the cut point at all. 50/50 is 50/50 and it's always going to be in the middle of the entire transition duration, regardless of where the cut point it placed.

You can't change this by shifting the edit point. It's impossible in a dissolve. That's why the ramp speed is essentially irrelevant.

You can change the temporal intervals coming into and out of the dissolve, and that's probably what is meant by the asymmetrical dissolve, but then is it actually a dissolve at all?

All of which bring my poor head back to the big brouhaha about why X calls it a "cross dissolve" rather than simply a dissolve.

I think that's another way to say what Charlie has properly sussed out. Maybe?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bret Williams
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 2:32:00 am

I do believe Andreas completely admitted defeat when he said "mmmm."


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 8:14:01 am

yeahhhhh - that's spot on. I was seriously over-egging the point by getting into comparisons to the S-curve ramps in X - it is rather called constant power in ppro after all - but I still argue the basic point that it's very useful to be able to do, and it is asymmetric in the, say, flat sense that the fade has custom offset L -R durations on the cut point you nominate...

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:51:05 pm

[Charlie Austin] "it's an 18 farm dissolve, but sliding a centered dissolve so the midpoint occurs on the same frame as your dissolve with an off-center midpoint is exactly the same thing."

also, what does this sentence even mean? I'm pretty certain it makes no sense though.
I don't think you maybe totally understand what you're talking about there charlie.

Apart from anything else - you can't slide the centre point of the dissolve in X. that's the whole point. Are you trying to say that the X symmetrical dissolve is functionally no different from the asymmetrical dissolves available in ppro and 7? because you tried this before below, and it didn't work out too well.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:57:26 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "the asymmetrical dissolves available in ... 7"

which ones would those be out of interest?

never been able to track those down.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:01:59 pm
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:12:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "symmetrical dissolve is functionally no different from the asymmetrical dissolves available in ppro and 7? "

Where are those in 7 again? I can have a dissolve with an odd frame count, but I can't adjust the mid-point within the transition. And all the "start on/ end on" alignment does is move the start/end point of the dissolve. these are exactly the same, despite what the little triangles may lead you to believe. :-)




-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 7:31:16 pm

The only equivalent I can think of is a lap dissolve.

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:14:32 pm

Lap dissolve. Anyone?

Tim


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Bob Woodhead
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:18:59 pm

I've always thought a star wipe works better than a dissolve in most cases, anyway.

But if you've got the change, a lap dissolve is fun, too.


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Mark Suszko
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:30:13 pm

For the love of God, don't mention to him the thing about the airplane on the treadmill runway...


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:32:03 pm

Him, who?

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:51:41 pm

And once more - who exactly are you talking about here, ace?

Tim


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Gary Huff
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:06:16 pm

Why do you sign your posts? Do you sign text messages also?


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:14:29 pm

Who are you talking to. If it's me I do not sign my posts. Whatever information is there about me is what i supplied when I registered with the Cow. Ands what is wrong with taking responsibility for one's posts?

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:19:02 pm

Am I some kind on moron for signing my posts? Do people not do that in the modern times?

Tim


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Shawn Miller
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:27:09 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Am I some kind on moron for signing my posts? Do people not do that in the modern times?

Tim"


I guess not... I must be a moron too then. :-)

Shawn



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Chris Harlan
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:53:36 pm

[Shawn Miller] "[TImothy Auld] "Am I some kind on moron for signing my posts? Do people not do that in the modern times?

Tim"

I guess not... I must be a moron too then. :-)

Shawn

"


I never seen it as a faux-pax; I just figured you folks were nicer than me.


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:14:06 am

A hundred years ago when I joined the Cow there was a field for "signature." I had no idea that it would one day be a point of contention - most especially in a world where one is not supposed to "post about the poster."

Tim


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Tim Wilson
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 12:32:21 am

[TImothy Auld] "A hundred years ago when I joined the Cow there was a field for "signature.""


There's a place to add your signature on the FIRST PAGE of the signup page. Our assumption was that most people would use them, so we put it right up front where you couldn't miss it.

Apparently the first page is not far enough forward.

Hence also that box just below the text entry area for your posts: "Add Your Message Signature." You can set the default on said front page of your settings. Depending on how you set it, that box will either be selected or not selected appropriately for the default, so that you can always add it or not on a post-by-post basis.



[TImothy Auld] "most especially in a world where one is not supposed to "post about the poster.""

True...and if it wasn't, I'm as mystified as you are. It REALLY never crossed my mind that somebody would get their chops busted for this. Half of our most frequent posters have them. (I just checked. Yes, HALF.) So I have no idea why it's coming up at all, much less NOW, more than 19 years after we started.



Tim Wilson <======== My signature
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Bill Davis
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 5:16:02 am

Enjoy my new asymmetrical signature.


Regards,

Bi ll Davi s.


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Gary Huff
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:06:19 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Aug 7, 2014 at 3:09:03 pm

[Tim Wilson] "So I have no idea why it's coming up at all, much less NOW, more than 19 years after we started."

Do you sign your text messages as well so that people know who it is from?

I just find it odd that someone would put their name in a signature at the bottom when their photo AND full name is right there at the top. It's as redundant as putting in the same text description from a YouTube video in a slate at the beginning of the video itself.


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Walter Soyka
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 5:28:33 pm

[Gary Huff] "Do you sign your text messages as well so that people know who it is from?"

Yes I do don't u 2??? Signed, Walter Soyka

(Also, you can't tell on email, but I'm leaving "Click here to add your message signature to this post" checked, so I've effectively signed this twice -- plus my identity in the header. Doubly redundant, yet so civil!)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Steve Connor
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 7:45:30 pm

[Gary Huff] "I just find it odd that someone would put their name in a signature at the bottom when their photo AND full name is right there at the top. It's as redundant as putting in the same text description from a YouTube video in a slate at the beginning of the video itself."

Surely it's just good manners?

Yours sincerely

Steve Connor


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Gary Huff
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 1:26:45 am

[Steve Connor] "
Surely it's just good manners?"


Emily Post put something in the mail for you.


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 11:28:57 pm

I really cannot imagine what would prompt you to post this nonsense. A few posts back I posted a single comment about how something someone else posted about reminded me of a lap dissolve. Did I offend you somehow with that comment? Otherwise I cannot understand why on God's green earth why you would ask my why I sign my posts.

Tim


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Jeff Kay
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:39:23 pm

I was about to say that I'm looking at one right now on my timeline and then I realized that you specified "dissolve". (Its an AvidFX transition template I created a long while back with some animated effects, a transition that is asymmetrical depending on placement, but it is not a dissolve)

Though a dissolve template could be created where the cut is the 50% point such that a 30frame dissolve starting 10 frames from the cut goes from 0% to 50% in 10 frames and then 50% to 100% in 20 frames (which can be done with keyframing).

But we've all long known that starting a 30frame dissolve at 14 frames from the cut is really the same as starting the dissolve at 15 frames and then moving the cut one frame, whichever we do is dependent on the timeline in question. For instance when laying music using dissolves to bring it in or out is common, but I always place my dissolves entirely within the clip because I know that later I'm going to have to fill out a music cue sheet and doing so makes it far easier to figure out the actual length of time the music is being played.

I guess I just don't see the point. Might as well argue that there is no such thing as video because its just a series of still images.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:47:42 pm

[Jeff Kay] "I guess I just don't see the point."

I think Charlie's point was probably that "asymmetrical dissolves" are sometimes perceived as being something that they aren't and that leads to confusion.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 8:52:26 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "[Jeff Kay] "I guess I just don't see the point."

I think Charlie's point was probably that "asymmetrical dissolves" are sometimes perceived as being something that they aren't and that leads to confusion.
"


lol... Yep, the confusion was mine, and I spent a couple days trying to recreate something which, as i've just discovered, doesn't really exist. I did come up with a useful little trick in the process, so it wasn't a complete waste of time. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:38:31 pm

Clearly star wipes solve all problems

Tim


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Bill Davis
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:28:38 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 6, 2014 at 9:31:10 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Lap dissolve. Anyone?

Tim"


I, for one, have no interest in being forced to stuff folding money in any sort of in point.

Just saying'

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:34:31 pm

What?

Tim


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TImothy Auld
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:49:50 pm

And again I say...What? This is in response to the simple reference to a lap dissolve?

Tim


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Bill Davis
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 7, 2014 at 4:55:32 am

Uh, just having a bit of mindless fun with the silly similarities between "lap dissolve" and "lap dance" - move along, nothing to see here.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:05:54 pm

Hey Charlie. Interesting challenge to our perception. I will try this in Legacy, using the transition settings to adjust in/out points of the effect, versus rolling the cut point, and ponder your concept.

Meantime, when I have something asymmetrical to make, it is usually as you describe: a layered effect, with careful key framing and bezier control so that as certain picture elements change, their opacity is addressed with custom keyframes. Sometimes you need a color that lingers to go away sooner, or you want two picture elements to arrive at a split-opacity and then linger as they move in space, and THEN both dissolve.

Yes, that kind of asymmetrical effect is trial & error key framing, not a simple "apply effect."

Doug D


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 6, 2014 at 10:14:38 pm

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "Hey Charlie. Interesting challenge to our perception. I will try this in Legacy, using the transition settings to adjust in/out points of the effect, versus rolling the cut point, and ponder your concept."

There are some transitions where adjusting the midpoint does have an effect, dip to color etc, as your inserting something between A and B. But not with a standard dissolve.

[Douglas K. Dempsey] " it is usually as you describe: a layered effect, with careful key framing and bezier control so that as certain picture elements change, their opacity is addressed with custom keyframes. Sometimes you need a color that lingers to go away sooner, or you want two picture elements to arrive at a split-opacity and then linger as they move in space, and THEN both dissolve.
"


Yep. Same with audio transitions.

[Douglas K. Dempsey] "hat kind of asymmetrical effect is trial & error key framing, not a simple "apply effect.""


Exactly. Dissolve effects are quick and easy. And symmetric, no matter what your NLE's UI shows you. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Michael Gissing
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 5:06:39 am

Just when you thought it was all over there is a way to do asymmetrical dissolves on a single track but not in an NLE. However DAWs, particularly the ones I have used (dSP & Fairlight) do allow for asymmetrical dissolves.

They can do it because you can dissolve (crossfade) to clips stacked on the same track. On the outgoing clip a fade can be added. The length of that dissolve and the shape of the curve are fully adjustable. Then another clip can be placed over that outgoing dissolve and the clip on top can then be set with another dissolve with a different length, start point and curve shape.

So it is possible but basically it is emulating doing asymmetry by splitting tracks or layers in an NLE.It is useful and powerful but if I need to do a similar thing with images in an NLE, I just use V1, V2 etc layer and keyframed opacity ramps.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 9:47:49 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Aug 8, 2014 at 9:56:31 am

[Michael Gissing] "Just when you thought it was all over there is a way to do asymmetrical dissolves on a single track but not in an NLE. However DAWs, particularly the ones I have used (dSP & Fairlight) do allow for asymmetrical dissolves.

They can do it because you can dissolve (crossfade) to clips stacked on the same track. On the outgoing clip a fade can be added. The length of that dissolve and the shape of the curve are fully adjustable. Then another clip can be placed over that outgoing dissolve and the clip on top can then be set with another dissolve with a different length, start point and curve shape.

So it is possible but basically it is emulating doing asymmetry by splitting tracks or layers in an NLE.It is useful and powerful but if I need to do a similar thing with images in an NLE, I just use V1, V2 etc layer and keyframed opacity ramps."


That's a very interesting point to make because it highlights another way of looking at this in FCP X.

In actual fact, as Charlie Austin has pointed out though not in so many words, what happens when you add a dissolve to an edit in a secondary storyline is that you're creating pretty much the exact the same thing as a stacked track.

Create a music edit in a secondary, then add a dissolve at the edit point.

Then Expand the audio (Ctrl+S) - what you will then have are two overlapping tracks where X has added the handles for the dissolve.

To create a true asymmetric dissolve all you need to do is grab the fade handles and adjust to taste - very simple and very powerful.



So maybe what Charlie should have said is "There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition in any NLE except FCP X".

;-)

Admittedly when you adjust the fade handles you are over-riding the Dissolve transition that you've added so strictly speaking the dissolve transition itself is still never asymmetric, but it does create the condition where one adjustment will create the asymmetry.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 2:55:20 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "So maybe what Charlie should have said is "There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition in any NLE except FCP X".
"


Hey, you're right!... I'm going to head over to the Premiere and MC forums and helpfully point this out immediately! ;-)

[Simon Ubsdell] "Admittedly when you adjust the fade handles you are over-riding the Dissolve transition that you've added so strictly speaking the dissolve transition itself is still never asymmetric, but it does create the condition where one adjustment will create the asymmetry.
"


Exactly. Now, someone helpfully pointed out to me that you can do the same thing by expanding audio at the cut, dragging out your handles, and using the trim tool to drag the edit point when the clips are collapsed. But using a dissolve creates your handles in one click and lets you drag the edit point without switching tools. I think it's a much quicker way to do it if you need to.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 3:27:07 pm

[Charlie Austin] "But using a dissolve creates your handles in one click and lets you drag the edit point without switching tools. I think it's a much quicker way to do it if you need to."

It's a really powerful option - not having to drag out the handles yourself is a significant time saver.

A great tip, thanks for sharing it.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 3:56:27 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "A great tip, thanks for sharing it.
"


Well, to be fair, the thanks should go to Aindreas and David for sending me down the rabbit hole where I stumbled on it. ;-) Definitely a timesaver though, I might actually use secondary's for MX beds now.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:00:57 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I might actually use secondary's for MX beds now"

I always use secondaries for music beds - it's one of the really great features in X that you can build a music bed in its own container, complete with fancy cross-fades (however you choose to make them), and you never have to worry about it unravelling. Just pin it to the right reference clip and you're done.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:09:40 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I always use secondaries for music beds - it's one of the really great features in X that you can build a music bed in its own container, complete with fancy cross-fades (however you choose to make them), and you never have to worry about it unravelling. Just pin it to the right reference clip and you're done."

No no no no no.

Tracks, Simon. Tracks.

It's the only way.


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Steve Connor
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:09:49 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I always use secondaries for music beds - it's one of the really great features in X that you can build a music bed in its own container, complete with fancy cross-fades (however you choose to make them), and you never have to worry about it unravelling. Just pin it to the right reference clip and you're done.
"


+1 on that, I also use compounds as well, never use the primary

Yours sincerely

Steve Connor


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:26:18 pm

[Steve Connor] "[Simon Ubsdell] "I always use secondaries for music beds - it's one of the really great features in X that you can build a music bed in its own container, complete with fancy cross-fades (however you choose to make them), and you never have to worry about it unravelling. Just pin it to the right reference clip and you're done.
"

+1 on that, I also use compounds as well, never use the primary"


That actually brings up another nice feature of X' connection points. There was a post on fop.co from a music video editor (though this applies to anything) about how he would cut different sections, and move the mx secondary connection point around depending on the bit he was working on. He cut the middle first, move the connection to the end of it, worked on the section after it (leaving the cut to the previous bit in sync while allowing the bits after it to ripple as needed), got that locked, changed the connection to the beginning of the section he started with, and worked on the parts leading up to it while all the later parts remained locked.

The FCP X timeline sure is rigid and inflexible huh?


[Steve Connor] "Yours sincerely

Steve Connor"


lol

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:15:46 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] " always use secondaries for music beds - it's one of the really great features in X that you can build a music bed in its own container, complete with fancy cross-fades (however you choose to make them), and you never have to worry about it unravelling. Just pin it to the right reference clip and you're done."

Actually, I do too, but I usually have A/B secondary's - because it was quicker than expanding and dragging out/adusting the handles in the components in a single lane. Not anymore. :-)

This trick also negates another issue I had with single secondary lanes...without a dissolve in the collapsed track, all you see is a cut point with no indication of whether it is just a cut, or an A/B crossfade. Using the dissolve shortcut though, you can see the difference, and also drag the edit point without switching tools. Less clicking = easier job = go home sooner. :-)

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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:25:47 pm

[Charlie Austin] "This trick also negates another issue I had with single secondary lanes...without a dissolve in the collapsed track, all you see is a cut point with no indication of whether it is just a cut, or an A/B crossfade. Using the dissolve shortcut though, you can see the difference, and also drag the edit point without switching tools. Less clicking = easier job = go home sooner. :-)
"


I use "expand splits" all the time. It's so easy.

What I don't like about dissolves is that the kb shortcuts don't work as well.


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:36:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I use "expand splits" all the time. It's so easy.

What I don't like about dissolves is that the kb shortcuts don't work as well."


Oh, definitely. But without the dissolve,effect on the clip, you "have to" expand splits to see your A/B vs. straight cuts. Once you change the A/B handles/fades under an expanded dissolve, the dissolve effect isn't doing anything other than being a drag thumb/visual indicator. :-)

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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:38:51 pm
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:38:55 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Oh, definitely. But without the dissolve,effect on the clip, you "have to" expand splits to see your A/B vs. straight cuts. Once you change the A/B handles/fades under an expanded dissolve, the dissolve effect isn't doing anything other than being a drag thumb/visual indicator. :-)"

Yes, it's a useful visual clue certainly. B

But the fact that it auto-creates the handles has to be a timesaver as against dragging them out manually, doesn't it?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 5:36:33 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "But the fact that it auto-creates the handles has to be a timesaver as against dragging them out manually, doesn't it?"

Yep. CMD-T, CTL-S, done. vs. CTL-S, click-drag, click-drag. Every second counts, the client is foaming at the mouth!

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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 5:43:31 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Every second counts, the client is foaming at the mouth!"

I'm pleased to say that most of my clients don't have rabies as far as I know ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 4:44:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "What I don't like about dissolves is that the kb shortcuts don't work as well."

What issues to you have with this, Jeremy?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 6:39:23 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "What issues to you have with this, Jeremy?"

Once a dissolve is created, it's harder to select and move the cut point via keyboard.

I'm kind of a big keyboard shortcut type of person. I think the way dissolves work in X aren't all that great. They are hard to drag around sometimes, and hard to not grab sometimes. Sometimes, it's hard to grab the exact right part of the dissolve or edge of the clip.

For dialogue especially, I rarely need a true dissolve, but rather a fade on one side, and I find that Shift left or right bracket is really easy.

I make a cut ( which i have remapped to a simple 'b' key) then shift left bracket then shift right bracket, and drag fade handles

I can do that really quickly. It sounds like it would take along time, but it doesn't. My clients are still rabies free. ;)

On video, I also do opacity fades more often than cross dissolves. Pretty much the same steps, but with a few different key strokes. I don't use a whole lot of video dissolves, typically.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 8, 2014 at 7:31:56 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I can do that really quickly. It sounds like it would take along time, but it doesn't."

OK, yes, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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David Lawrence
Re: There Is No Such Thing as an Asymmetrical Dissolve Transition.
on Aug 9, 2014 at 5:23:54 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm kind of a big keyboard shortcut type of person. I think the way dissolves work in X aren't all that great. They are hard to drag around sometimes, and hard to not grab sometimes. Sometimes, it's hard to grab the exact right part of the dissolve or edge of the clip.

For dialogue especially, I rarely need a true dissolve, but rather a fade on one side, and I find that Shift left or right bracket is really easy.

I make a cut ( which i have remapped to a simple 'b' key) then shift left bracket then shift right bracket, and drag fade handles

I can do that really quickly. It sounds like it would take along time, but it doesn't. My clients are still rabies free. ;)

On video, I also do opacity fades more often than cross dissolves. Pretty much the same steps, but with a few different key strokes. I don't use a whole lot of video dissolves, typically."


Jeremy, this is how I mainly use dissolves as well. Not as dissolves, but as fades at the start (or end) of an edit. In FCP Legacy and Premiere Pro (and Resolve 11), this happens by default when dissolves are applied to a clip with no adjacent clips on the track. The workflow I depend on takes advantage of this ability.

I think my particular problems with FCPX's dissolves stem from what you've described. I'm traveling at the moment but when I return next week, I'd like to see if I can work more easily in FCPX as you describe. I'll also post some images to make the problem I'm talking about more clear.

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