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and finally......

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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Steve Connor
and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 8:14:06 am

So to sum up:

Premiere Pro CC 2014 - excellent software, amazing speed of development from Adobe and a natural successor to FCP7, only issue is the subscription model that many people don't seem to like. Despite this it's user base is growing.

Avid - still the predominant NLE for Film and large areas of Broadcast, seems relatively untouched by the NLE wars.

FCP7 - still exists and still has a massive user base of people who still haven't switched

FCPX, the most polarising release of any NLE in history, has been improving steadily and has a loyal and growing user base, but is unlikely ever to reach the market size that FCP7 had.

Anything to add?

Steve Connor

Hoping to become a pedant


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Mark Dobson
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:36:31 am

Can't argue with any if that - a good summary of the NLE state of play.

I've no desire to use Premiere Pro but having been opposed to the Adobe subscription model on principle I've now succumbed to the photographic offer, Photoshop + Lightroom for £7 per month based on paying an annual fee. It was irresistible and its great to have the latest version of photoshop sitting in my applications folder having struggled to use pixelmator to do any professional work.

What influenced me was Apples announcement that there would be no further development for Aperture so I decided to check out Lightroom and before I knew I had downloaded the trial and was hooked.

So if Apple announced that there would no further FCPX development . . . . .


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David Mathis
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 2:28:30 pm

I doubt that Apple will stop development of FCP X anytime soon. Perhaps when the next OS comes about there could be another large update. Just a guess really.

I refuse to go subscription only, so until Adobe changes course (not likely) Premiere Pro is not an option.

Until something else comes along, not being subscription only FCP X and Motion are the software of choice. Same goes with Resolve which I am considering as an alternative. Not sure about Lightworks as I have not given it a try. Might give it a look very soon. My two cents, whatever it is worth.

I am an avid user of FCP X!


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 10:41:39 am

[Steve Connor] "FCPX, ... is unlikely ever to reach the market size that FCP7 had"

Not too sure about that.

I would think, FCP X may not attain the same market size in the same market as FCP 7, possibly. But it might eventually outsell every other NLE but to a somewhat different market. And considering that every purchase of FCP X is good for use on 5 systems (mine is running on 3) there is likely to be a huge user base.

There's a thread here earlier about them having sold a million copies of FCP X already.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Marcus Moore
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 2:53:18 pm

I think the first thing we need to admit is that we don't know what exactly the APERTURE to PHOTOS will mean, and I think we need to distinguish a difference between Apple EOL'ing APERTURE and walking away from the Pro photography market, cause they're not necessarily the same thing.

It could be that Aperture as a brand, or a codebase, or a feature set were just too outdated- and a fresh start (like FCP X) was needed. Since they're combining iPhoto and Aperture into a single app, a new name and brand was probably the best way to go.

It could well be hobbled, absolutely. Thankfully my photographic editing needs are pretty light. So I'm happy to wait on the sidelines until the product is released and see how the cards shake out.


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Gary Huff
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 3:11:31 pm

[Marcus Moore] " think we need to distinguish a difference between Apple EOL'ing APERTURE and walking away from the Pro photography market, cause they're not necessarily the same thing."

Completely agree.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 10:51:22 am
Last Edited By Scott Witthaus on Jul 31, 2014 at 10:52:57 am

[Steve Connor] "Avid - still the predominant NLE for Film and large areas of Broadcast, seems relatively untouched by the NLE wars"

I disagree here. Avid came out as the loser in the "FCP7 execution sweepstakes" by Apple and the opportunities that Adobe and Avid had immediately following. From where I sit, many more shops went to Premiere over Avid (actually all the shops I know that were on FCP7 and did switch went to Adobe). Avid continues to feel pressure on everything. Watch for X to continue to sneak into many smaller news station workflows.

[Steve Connor] "Premiere Pro CC 2014 - excellent software, amazing speed of development from Adobe and a natural successor to FCP7, only issue is the subscription model that many people don't seem to like"

I add it's crashes, interface, lack of speed with large file types, and general "plastic feel" can be added to my dislike list. Resolve 11 looks like a better successor going forward.

[Steve Connor] "FCP7 - still exists and still has a massive user base of people who still haven't switched"

Yup. But "massive" seems a bit over the top. It's a dead software that ain't coming back. Legacy users, me being one, will have to delete the software sooner rather than later.

[Steve Connor] "but is unlikely ever to reach the market size that FCP7 had."

I disagree here. IF (and that's a big if) Apple continues to develop the product, I can see X easily surpassing FCP7's user-base. Start at price alone. Then watch new editors learning it. Apple got it right, even if us old editors might not think so. They are closing the loop on content acquisition, creation and distribution. Maybe a 4k Apple camera one day? ;-)

Tag, you're it! :-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Craig Shields
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 12:20:05 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I add it's crashes, interface, lack of speed with large file types, and general "plastic feel" can be added to my dislike list. Resolve 11 looks like a better successor going forward."

What crashes? I don't know of any speed issues either.



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Gary Huff
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 3:13:42 pm

[Craig Shields] "What crashes? I don't know of any speed issues either."

Frankly, I have experienced more crashes and hang-ups with FCPX than with Premiere 2014 so far. On a nMBPr maxed out.


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Charlie Austin
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:00:44 pm

[Gary Huff] "Frankly, I have experienced more crashes and hang-ups with FCPX than with Premiere 2014 so far. On a nMBPr maxed out."

I find them both to be pretty stable. I will say that, on the occasions that X has crashed in the last 2+ years I've been using it for real, I have lost work once, which was quickly restored from a backup. Every other time i've just reopened it and whatever edit I did right before the crash was still there. I can't say the same of Pr, 7, MC, or anything else.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Dominic Deacon
Re: and finally......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 8:55:18 pm

Edius was left off this list. I used it everyday for about 2 years before I finally crashed it. I used to try to crash it for fun. Say, grab half a dozen filters and lay them on a couple thousand clips at once. It would just pin wheel for about 5 seconds and then go right on playing. Things a tank.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 12:44:50 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Jul 31, 2014 at 12:46:59 pm

[Steve Connor] "Anything to add?"

Steve,

Well, they've all been "improving steadily" and have "loyal and growing user bases", so I wouldn't single out FCPX for that. (There's probably an argument that Premiere Pro has improved more and grown more.)

Avid's financial uncertainty is probably also worth mentioning, as well as it's embrace of both rental and perpetual license models.

Lightworks and now Resolve are still outliers. (... and other?).

But I think the big surprise is FCP 7 still alive and widespread in 2014. This is what "end of life" looks like. That really is something, and one would like to think that fact registers somewhere at Apple.

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 2:59:05 pm
Last Edited By Marcus Moore on Jul 31, 2014 at 3:00:44 pm

I wonder what AVIDs growth looks like at this stage? As the most mature product in the most mature markets, I'd certainly expect their growth to be far less than FCP X or Pr.

With Larry Jordan recently mentioning that you can still buy FCP7 licenses, I think the really interesting point will be when we get to a MacOS release that DOESN'T support FCP7. When this happens, how Apple manages that message, and where FCP X's feature set is at will be very important. It will certainly be the major motivator for which way all those customers will go when they finally migrate.


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Mark Dobson
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 3:53:28 pm

[Marcus Moore] "I wonder what AVIDs growth looks like at this stage? As the most mature product in the most mature markets, I'd certainly expect their growth to be far less than FCP X or Pr."

Is there any way of finding out how many copies of FCPX have actually been sold since launch?


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Marcus Moore
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 4:00:21 pm
Last Edited By Marcus Moore on Jul 31, 2014 at 4:02:29 pm

At NAB, Apple told Larry Jordan "over 1 million". Later I found out that was distinct purchases, not just installs from a single AppleID.

I've always had the mental number in my mind that meant around 1.2 million. Over a million, but not close enough to 1.5 to let them say that, though they could be at that number now, or over. I imagine we'll hear again when they cross 2million, cause it would match sales of Legacy FCP.

After the thread below, I was wondering about the adoption curve, and if there was any way to get closer to that. There are 3rd parties that use different metrics to figure out individual apps downloads and revenue- one I found is AppAnnie. If you had a Pro account, we could get their estimates on FCP X sales. I haven't emailed to see how much that would be.


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Mark Dobson
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 4:52:00 pm

1 million + !

That's a lot of people enjoying themselves and a big lump of Mac computers.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:29:53 pm

I agree with the FCPX "creeping in" - I'm starting to see that here in LA where a lot of younger Editors that may use whichever NLE at work have FCPX on the laptop and cut all their own stuff in FCPX.

I would bet that most of the FCP7 hold-outs are more likely to end up on FCPX than anything else. FCPX gets significantly better the longer they wait while there most likely won't be radical changes to Premiere or MC.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Charlie Austin
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:34:12 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "I would bet that most of the FCP7 hold-outs are more likely to end up on FCPX than anything else."

Setting aside the contentious debate about uh... well everything regarding X, ;-) I really find that it feels the most like FCP 7 as far as KB operations, editing/adjusting audio, dragging stuff around etc. Clearly the 2 are wildly, ridiculously different... I'm just talking about how it feels to work in once you get comfortable with it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 2:28:07 am

I agree. You can setup things in Premiere to be the same keystroke, but the function is just different enough to drive you nuts. Like shift+Z. I use that exactly the same in X as 7. But in Premiere, it's a toggle. A good idea, but it doesn't feel at home.

Now if Motion could feel as native to me as After Effects. As I make the switch I'm still looking for ways to do things that are so simple in AE and seem like a million clicks in Motion.


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Charlie Austin
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 2:48:52 am

[Bret Williams] "I agree. You can setup things in Premiere to be the same keystroke, but the function is just different enough to drive you nuts. Like shift+Z. I use that exactly the same in X as 7. But in Premiere, it's a toggle. A good idea, but it doesn't feel at home."

Yep... I didn't remap the Pr KB to be like 7 because I think using a program as designed yells better results. Keeps my brain active. :-)



[Bret Williams] "Now if Motion could feel as native to me as After Effects. As I make the switch I'm still looking for ways to do things that are so simple in AE and seem like a million clicks in Motion."

I'm still pretty much lost in either one, so the mitt as well be the same. lol

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 2:56:49 am

Yeah, I tried it and it's was easier just to learn their shortcuts.

But then they went all subscription and my sub expired and I decided not to renew.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 3:41:57 am

[Bret Williams] "Now if Motion could feel as native to me as After Effects. As I make the switch I'm still looking for ways to do things that are so simple in AE and seem like a million clicks in Motion."

Examples? I switched from AE to Motion for graphics work about 5 years ago- I love it. Especially now that some good 3rd party support is coming in like Mocha and MotionVFX. Now if only guys like RedGiant would get onboard.


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 3:55:39 am

I love Motion. But until I ditched AE it was always a second language. I've always assumed there were better ways of doing things. Keyframing mainly. Maybe you can help. Today I created a simple fade in with keyframing opacity. I wanted to paste the same two keyframes to other clips. In AE all I'd do is press the über key U, marquee copy the two Keyframes, highlight the layer to paste to and paste. But in Motion I have to open the keyframe editor (can't seem to copy from the layer), toggle to animated Keyframes, decipher which Keyframes are opacity ones amongst the jumble of other Keyframes being graphed all over the place (I have no need for a graph 99% of the time), copy, highlight the layer to paste to, toggle the keyframe editor to show just opacity, then paste. I assume there's a better way. Like I said, I don't do Motion much but it's my future since 1. It's a great app that just performs better than AE, and 2. I'm not renting AE anymore. My copy of CS5 isn't going to function forever!


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Marcus Moore
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 4:06:04 am

Well, in that specific instance you're best and fastest option is to use the FADE IN/FADE OUT Behaviour, which can be very easily copied and pasted to different layers. I'm still fighting 10 years of key-framing habits from my days of AE (which I know has Expressions) and getting used to how great Behaviours are.

My big secret is my two 27" ACDs. Then throw the timeline over to the second display. That way I never have to close the Keyframe Editor at all.

I would definitely like to see AE's quick shortcuts to position, scale, etc... ported to Motion. Even if it's still in the existing Keyframe Editor, a quick key to "solo" parameters so you don't have to manually turn them all on/off would be great.

Sounds like a feature request!


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 3, 2014 at 8:16:49 pm

So other than the fade/out behavior, the way I'm copying/pasting Keyframes is pretty much it? Bummer. I knew that behavior was there and did a search but all I saw was the text fade behaviors. But there it is. I just missed it. But anyway, I definitely have the need to cut/paste Keyframes of all sorts all the time.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 4, 2014 at 3:41:53 pm

[Bret Williams] "But in Motion I have to open the keyframe editor (can't seem to copy from the layer), toggle to animated Keyframes, decipher which Keyframes are opacity ones amongst the jumble of other Keyframes being graphed all over the place"

There are lots of cunning things you can do to make keyframe navigation really quick (Curve Sets, for example, are really powerful and save a lot of time) but to answer that specific point, you can simply toggle to Opacity (rather than Animated) which will show you the fade keyframes only and avoid having to sift through any others.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 4:00:36 am

Oh yes Motion VFX! The Andrew Kramer of Motion that Simon is. I have the full mObject set and just today was trying add a 3D kitchen to my comp. it worked but pretty well. Got the kitchen off videohive as .obj. It's definitely going add a little something going forward.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 4:10:49 am

Szymon is great, and they produce great products and templates. Anyone who doubts that Motion can satisfy a great deal of the graphics needs of most editors just need to browse the Motion templates pages. Sometimes I'll just scroll thru them looking for ideas- and I'll admit to having even bought a couple if I can't figure out how the heck they've done something.

There's another update to mObject coming soon, I think- bringing a bunch of great new features including Ambient Occlusion. The product still has a ways to go- I don't think it's quite as strong as Element, but it does what I need it to do, and it's getting better all the time.


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Bret Williams
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 5, 2014 at 6:08:36 pm

Maybe you would know why I keep trying to make a clone of an mobject layer, it comes out different. IOW, smaller scale and often turned at an angle. Example... see the black arrow pointing left and right. It's working great. But then I press K to clone it and the clone is the smaller tilted/twisted version. Both are in the same group. Maybe I need to clone the group? Motion seems to have just as many 3D quirks as AE. Add a mask to a layer and it breaks the 3D chain, etc.



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Dave Gage
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 7:56:20 pm
Last Edited By Dave Gage on Jul 31, 2014 at 8:02:05 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user."

Interesting, but what does that have to do with how lightworks?


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Gary Huff
Re: and continually ......
on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:53:54 pm

[Dave Gage] "Interesting, but what does that have to do with how lightworks?"

It was at a Vegas premiere that I saw the light for my works and resolved to become an avid FCPX user.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 12:41:24 am

Dang I shoulda worked that in, was totally stuck with Edius too...

I like Lightworks by the way - would love to do a show in it from start some day.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Neil Goodman
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 2:48:33 am

I'm jealous of the people who get to use whatever they want day in and day out.

I own all 3 of the A's but barely cut at home or take on side gigs anymore. In my market I'm not seeing a massive push for Premiere except at some agencies. Still lots of FCP 7 tho.

As far as FCP X ive seen one job posting in the last couple months and it was for 10 bucks an hour.


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Charlie Austin
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 2:54:30 am

[Neil Goodman] "I'm jealous of the people who get to use whatever they want day in and day out. "

It is kinda fun, in a masochistic way, to jump around. I'll cut in X unless I need to collaborate with folks at work who are still hanging on to 7 for dear life. One guy uses Pr sometimes so I get to cut in that when he and I are swapping stuff. The others? They started cutting in 7 and are very nervous about learning anything else, which I get. They'll get at least one more OS upgrade, but after that, who knows? They can always freeze their systems in time... Me, I like the bleeding edge. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Gary Huff
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 3:13:02 pm

[Charlie Austin] "It is kinda fun, in a masochistic way, to jump around. I'll cut in X unless I need to collaborate with folks at work who are still hanging on to 7 for dear life."

Thankfully, in my circles, I haven't even opened FCP7. I know there is still work being done in it around here, but mostly I either don't touch the edit at all or I have complete control. So I jump around between X and Premiere CC 2014.


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alban egger
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 8:55:33 pm

Neil, I have seen student films to be cut on Avid or free, not even 10 bucks. What does that actually say about any NLE or the person using it? You guys just hate on FCPX so much it is not even funny anymore and the arguments are getting really lame.

FCPX is not suitable for a workflow of 2007. we knew that after a week of its existence in 2011. so leave us alone with your 37 months old trashtalk. But for people who built or are building a workflow around it, it works at least as good or hopefully better than the other NLEs (OSX, media management, editing, output-options come into play).

And they charge what they have to and it is none of our concern. I make a lot more with X than I did with FCP or Edius. So maybe you just read the wrong paper.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 9:35:33 pm

give him hell egger. also never let anyone diss your audio dissolve. stand proud you X people.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Neil Goodman
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 11:54:22 pm

[alban egger] "Neil, I have seen student films to be cut on Avid or free, not even 10 bucks. What does that actually say about any NLE or the person using it? You guys just hate on FCPX so much it is not even funny anymore and the arguments are getting really lame.

FCPX is not suitable for a workflow of 2007. we knew that after a week of its existence in 2011. so leave us alone with your 37 months old trashtalk. But for people who built or are building a workflow around it, it works at least as good or hopefully better than the other NLEs (OSX, media management, editing, output-options come into play).

And they charge what they have to and it is none of our concern. I make a lot more with X than I did with FCP or Edius. So maybe you just read the wrong paper.

"


I didnt say anything negative about FCP X in my post. Not sure where you get off, I was saying i was jealous of people with NLE ambiguity.

I simply mentioned what I'm seeing in LA and so far theres been one FCPX offer for 10 an hour. Sure student films are cut for free but im not a student and I'm making a living off my skillset. In LA, i get rewarded most for being proficient in Avid. I wish i could use PPRO for certain things and I wish i could use FCPX for other things, the fact is...theres noone paying respectable wages for it yet, therefore i have look past it for now.

Im not sure what drives people to get so defensive over a piece of software. Take a chill pill.


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Charlie Austin
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 2, 2014 at 12:03:39 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Aug 2, 2014 at 12:04:34 am

[Neil Goodman] "Im not sure what drives people to get so defensive over a piece of software."

Aindreas. ;-)

...Charlie runs away cackling...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Mathis
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 2, 2014 at 12:58:22 am

No comment. :-)

I am an avid user of FCP X!


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: and continually ......
on Aug 2, 2014 at 12:23:04 am

[Neil Goodman] "I was saying i was jealous of people with NLE ambiguity. "

yes. goes to short skill and application my end. that said - avid good jesus. How? How and how for god's sake?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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alban egger
Re: and finally......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 8:41:10 pm

Finally ? What finally? Don 't get the point of your post, and AFAIK FCPX has already sold more copies than all FCP versions together.

So what are you saying? That Adobe is sponsoring the cow and Apple doesn't?



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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: and finally......
on Aug 1, 2014 at 11:02:41 pm

[alban egger] "FCPX has already sold more copies than all FCP versions together."


Alban,

This is false.

There was some marketing spin that might lead you to this conclusion a while back. But the number Apple announced at NAB 2014 was "over a million". This was lower than generally expected, and behind other NLE numbers currently.

Relevant discussion:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/68828


Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and finally......
on Aug 2, 2014 at 4:03:15 am

What spin are you talking about Franz? I'm not sure how anyone could conflate "over 1 million" seats of FCP X for the "2 million" Legacy seats Apple announced had been sold when they debuted FCP X in June 2011.

I suppose technically there could be more buts in seats using FCP X, since technically one shop could have 5-10 people working off one X license (5 is the "letter of the law" but it's not enforced as far as I know). Anyways, there's no way to be sure on that so we might as well just go with the number of sales. I'm sure Apple will let us know when they've passed Legacy sales- since they made a point of telling us when they'd passed sales of FCP7.

I'm wagering that will happen as early as NAB next year, or certainly by NAB 2016. If they do, that will mean FCP X sold 2 million seats in 4-5 years, while legacy took a decade.

I don't know how this could be a disappointment to anyone.

And as for overall NLE numbers, I know you and I have been around this course before... :) There's loads of caveats on numbers from both Adobe and Apple- and I think there's too large a grey margin for any definitive conclusions.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 5:20:29 am

[Marcus Moore] " What spin are you talking about Franz?"

Marcus,

NAB 2012:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/31581

"Apple notes that there are now more editors working with FCP X than with Final Cut Pro 7."


The spin I'm referring to is the way that statement is crafted (interesting that sales aren't mentioned); people forget the specifics and it gets confused and remember as this in 2014:

[alban egger] "FCPX has already sold more copies than all FCP versions together."

In retrospect what is interesting about that statement from Apple is that implies they sold less than maybe 250,000-400,000 copies of FCP7 (including upgrades). Wow.

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 5:39:47 am

Well, I'm not sure how they could have been clearer about the benchmark they'd achieved. People are always going to misquote or mishear. I've head seen lot of people conflating Adobe's CC subscription numbers with Premier Pro adoption, or in the last thread when someone conflated AVID total products with AVID numbers- it's just something you can't avoid. People like you and I just need to make sure we correct people when we can!

As to numbers, I remember FCP7 was considered a fairly minor update at launch, especially after the heady days of Final Cut Studio 2. I know it took a lot of my client YEARS to upgrade. And again, I'll go back to the point I've made repeatedly that our market may not be as large as we think it is; looking at if from inside.

One other thing I'll just jump back to, since I re-read our conversation that you linked. You mentioned FCP licences proportional with Mac sales. I think that's a bit of a red herring. Apple had a strong presence in professional arts then as it does now (at one point just about the only people who were using them)- but a majority of the growth in Macs over the last decade (from about 2.5% to about 12% today) has come from "consumer" adoption- people who have migrated from PCs but aren't in any way the market for Final Cut. So I'm not sure why you think FCP growth should be proportional with Mac sales.


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Bill Davis
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 6:07:54 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 2, 2014 at 6:10:16 am

Franz,

It's all tea leaf reading. So don't take any of it too seriously.

From a long view, the only thing that's proved (in the fullness of hindsight) to be settled are the first year blathers who staked out the "Apple has abandoned pro editors" crap. They were shortsighted and wrong. Period.

There are still voices that don't take X seriously. But fewer and fewer. Now it's doing exactly what legacy did. Evolve and EARN its way into top tier use. As it should.

The MOST interesting thing as one of the early adopters is to see around the web the handles of guys who truly excoriated it on multiple groups for months and months, and who are now either confirmed X editors or who have it in their toolkit and use it when it fits a project.

All that V1 angst about magnetism, no tracks, embedded audio etc, etc - the stuff there from day one that caused people to light their hair on fire - is now a big yawn for everyone except Aindreas.

And even he's struggling mightily to articulate, then proselytize, then rage against, his interior fantasy dogma for the church of evil apple. I guess it sucks to Rage Against the Machine only to discover so many people kinda think the machine actually works pretty well.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 1:00:33 pm

Marcus, Bill,

I'd agree this is more evidence that FCP X is playing in the same (smallish) sandbox as other NLEs.

I have more thoughts on those numbers I may post later.

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 2:51:09 pm

There may be some case to be made that FCPX isn't as impenetrable, or at least an easier migration from iMovie- so some people who may have stuck with that product in the Legacy days have been tempted by the familiar interface (and likely price) to move over to FCP X. I know the fcp.co board are getting busier and busier with new users who are coming from iMovie.

As for numbers- I'm going to email AppAnnie this weekend to see how much it would cost for their stats on ProApps. The number could be at least be partially crosschecked against the Apple 1+ million number from April. It could shed some more light onto the question of growth-curve.

Look forward to your further thoughts.


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Bill Davis
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 2, 2014 at 8:24:46 pm

[Marcus Moore] "There may be some case to be made that FCPX isn't as impenetrable,"

Heres the thing. In my informal contact with a lot of X users that span from migrating pros to noobs, it's been crystal clear from day one that X is, by far, the EASIEST NLE to grasp for beginners.

The class of editor who has the most difficulty with X have always been those who have long established professional workflows and who need to jettison so much muscle memory and re-think things.

It's the 15 - 18 year old "first worlders" of today who "get it" the fastest. And that's irrespective of whether or not they've ever touched iMovie. It just makes sense to them. The import makes sense because the've NEVER had just one kind of camera to deal with, but have grown up in a stew of iPhones, go pros, dads DSLR etc. The database makes sense since they've been used to calling up data via google since they could text. The magnetic timeline makes sense since drag and drop is their language. And share to the web is more comfortable to them than print to tape. (Tape, what the hell is that?)

Time is FCP X's best ally. IMO.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 5, 2014 at 10:42:44 am

[Bill Davis] "Heres the thing. In my informal contact with a lot of X users that span from migrating pros to noobs, it's been crystal clear from day one that X is, by far, the EASIEST NLE to grasp for beginners.
"


Spot on, Bill.

I teach X basics to my graduate students and I can confirm that it gets picked up WAY faster and easier than Legacy or especially Avid and Premiere. Some of my students come in with a knowledge of Premiere but after seeing X in play make the switch. I don't force them; they are free to cut on their system of choice, but many choose to drop Premiere and use X. I just added Motion to our edit lab and that will be interesting to watch, versus students trying to learn AE. Apple got something very very right with X that probably is difficult for traditional NLE editors to see clearly through the haze of our "experience".

[Bill Davis] "Time is FCP X's best ally."
Exactly. I have said many times that Apple didn't make X for us old guys. What I see with the newbies is what Apple, in my opinion, was playing for all along.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: and finally...... (more sales numbers, in retrospect)
on Aug 18, 2014 at 12:56:24 am

Per Bill's comments, I have posted often on this forum the fact that I use X for a high school video class, the 15-18 year old range Bill mentions.

And I have noted that we have FCP7 and the full CS6 on all of our iMacs.

But X is the sweet spot. Kids from theatre, photography and art ... universally respond well to X.

These kids don't have a "where are the tracks?" mentality. They just instantly "get" the app and start using it creatively.

The more serious students who come back year after year tend to buy X and work at home; they dive into the deep end in class, trying to master techniques and features.

I show them FCP7, PPro and Avid MC Student edition. They appreciate the vague idea that workflow and group collaboration may require them to master more apps if they ever "go pro."

But meantime, I don't see anyone being "held back" in their experimentation and creativity by using X.

Doug D


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