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Is it all over?

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Steve Connor
Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 7:05:18 pm

Haven't seen it this quiet here for a while, did FCPX win?

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 7:17:21 pm

Fourth of July weekend. Everyone finally stepped away from the computer and went outside for a bit.


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John Davidson
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 7:21:36 pm

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:07:23 pm

It won, hands down. It is only us - the old, the foolish, those unable to learn new things, unable to accept change, those that cling desperately to the old ways - who do not accept FCPX's universal appeal. (Though I do like it for some jobs.)

Tim


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David Mathis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:07:32 pm
Last Edited By David Mathis on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:09:57 pm

Sorry, looks like Adobe won! I mean just paying a monthly rental fee is so exciting. :-)


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Shane Ross
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:35:31 pm

FCX won? Won what? Some sort of booby prize?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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TImothy Auld
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 9:06:46 pm

Really?

Tim


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Julian Bowman
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 7:35:55 am

Didn't iMovie win?



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Mitch Ives
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:21:32 pm

The update came and went. Nobody's excited anymore... until the next update?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:21:33 pm

There's no winning here. The most recent update didn't have many sexy new features, but very solid pro-workflow oriented changes to media management and XML import/export. In fact, Apple actively avoided mentioning a big list of new generators, transitions, and effects because they didn't feel they were important enough.

Complaining about where X's feature set is today is like complaining about where Premier's feature-set was 4 years ago. By that I don't mean that X is behind 4 years behind. As a growing application it's remarkably strong in some areas, and still needs work in others.

And of course now we're likely in for a bit of a stretch before X is updated again- perhaps a maintenance update in the next month or two, and then a strong 10.1.4 later this year after Yosemite is out. With Media Management pretty well nailed down, what's next? Audio? Editorial features? Color correction? Timeline organization? Will be interesting to see what they tackle next.

Only disappointed to see that GPU RED acceleration didn't make it into this update.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:43:03 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Complaining about where X's feature set is today "

Nobody was complaining in this thread. (Unless you took my irony for complaining.)

Tim


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 8:46:35 pm

Just generally. Nothing specific to what's been said here.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 7, 2014 at 11:05:07 pm

Yes, it's over. Avid won. ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 1:48:10 am

[Oliver Peters] "Yes, it's over. Avid won. ;-)"

I heard R11 won. :-}

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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TImothy Auld
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 12:10:43 am

If only that were my world, Oliver.

Tim


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 1:04:58 am

Well they did get one new customer .. me... .finally (after how many years??).

I don't have a specific project I need FCPX for, but I finally felt confident that my purchase would eventually yield itself beneficial. Especially for those times when I'm rendering every Avid effect on my timeline, pondering the purpose of it all ;)


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:26:12 am

I've been a casual user since the beginning - very casual love/hate user - but now attempting full-time use! Also plan to cancel my CC at the end of the month. I still need Photoshop and AE here and there but fine using older versions. After a full year with Premiere CC used on a wide variety of paid gigs I'm done.

I even bought some new FCPX plug-ins this weekend :)

Only issue I still have with FCPX is that it just holds on to RAM so much that I need to restart machine almost every hour under heavy use...

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:29:05 am

Even with 10.1.2? Though I'm stuck on the last version mid-project- it's killing me because I've been hearing about a lot of overall performance and stability improvements.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:35:19 am

I so much want to commit to FCP X. I am not convinced yet that Apple is as serious about editing as I am (with my 13 year old company on the line).

But I am an old Filemaker guy so I get the power of a database.

I want it! But I have a staff of five who are old Media 100/Final Cut guys. Big step.

Premier...not.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48:04 am

The only way to dive in is to start driving it on some real jobs- probably just one editor to start so they can figure out process and workflow and can pass that practical knowledge onto the others. But someone's going to have to go thru the frustrating process and come out the other side knowing and understanding the app really well.

The people making the app take it very seriously from everything I've heard. At the company level, theres no writing on the wall now to suggest Apple is softening on either FCPX or Logic. If Apple wasn't committed to it, then I think we would have seen the axe fall 2 years ago.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:43:00 am

[Rich Rubasch] "I so much want to commit to FCP X. I am not convinced yet that Apple is as serious about editing as I am (with my 13 year old company on the line). "

My suggestion is not to commit to any single NLE. Pick the one (or two or three) that best fits your needs today and for the foreseeable future (3-5 years) and just go with it. Try to keep archives platform agnostic (save XMLs/AFFs, etc.,) so you can relatively easily bring projects back to life after the next sea change event occurs. Be a Willow, not an Oak. ;)

The software is cheap, installing side by side (or on separate partitions) is simple and the I/O hardware (if you need it) is largely platform agnostic so I don't see the need for a 'pick it and stick with it' approach anymore.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:46:59 am

[Andrew Kimery] "My suggestion is not to commit to any single NLE"

I concur. While I clearly have a favorite, I currently have FCP X, PrCC, MC, and now R11 ready to go if I need them or feel like using them. FCP 7 still works as well. It's also good for your brain to try to remember how they all work. Wards off Alzheimer's... ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:09:29 am

Rich,

If it stays this humid (along with hot) in Phoenix, I might volunteer to come out and teach X to your crew for free. Just send me a bus ticket, get me a cheap hotel room, and toss me some Culvers coupons. Wisconsin for a week or so sounds like heaven after the weird early monsoons have kicked our humidity WAY up over the typical 10%.

(cranking down the AC)

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:36:19 am

Yes latest version - stability is fine, just the resource hogging. I installed a new Sapphire 7950 just to give the system a little more GPU memory but didn't solve the slow down problem after a lot of heavy lifting. Hopefully just a hardware thing I can find.

It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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David Mathis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:58:48 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "t was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user."

I have decided to resolve not to subscribe to CC but rather be an avid user of FCP X. :-)

I love puns.


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Dan Stewart
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 8:13:03 pm

..finally resolved?



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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:41:37 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:47:32 am

[Lance Bachelder] "Only issue I still have with FCPX is that it just holds on to RAM so much that I need to restart machine almost every hour under heavy use..."

Please bug Apple about this :-) I find that just relaunching X frees up the RAM it's hogged. I've used activity monitor as well as a couple other utilities to confirm that:

A- X doesn't like to release RAM (it will eventually, but not before it starts bogging). and...

B- Simply relaunching the app does free it up.

Also, some plugins/generators tend to make it worse. I haven't bothered to try and track 'em down, since relaunching only takes about 15 seconds.

Also... and you may know this... keeping the inspector closed makes a big difference. Bit of a PITA, but worth it under heavy loads...


EDIT: R.E. RAM hogging... 10.1.2 is way better than previous versions, and all versions of X play nicer with newer hardware. When I moved from a maxed out (old style) Mac Pro to a 2012 iMac while ago the difference (for the better) was really noticeable... It still needs a "kick" every now and then even now. But like I said... 15 seconds. :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 12:14:20 pm

I use it mainly for creative tinkering, and admiring all the real-time scopes...even on my laptop.

It seems to have troubles working properly with my AJA T-Tap ... but I won't let that bother me for now. Even with any perceived shortcomings, I can still "sandbox" my ideas around faster than other NLEs.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:43:38 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Also plan to cancel my CC at the end of the month."

Would love to hear the reasoning behind this - what didn't work for you?

[Lance Bachelder] "It was at a Vegas premiere that I resolved to become an avid FCPX user."

I'm very slow today, took a moment to appreciate this. Nice.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 7:02:11 pm

The last time I went to Vegas they Premiered a naked Symphony by some terrible Composer named Edius, who didn't have a clue how to Resolve a note.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:44:32 pm

[Steve Connor] "did FCPX win?"

No, Belgium won.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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alban egger
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:55:35 pm

FCPX won, unless you charge by the hour.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 8:50:06 pm

given the mass adoption (running dangerously close to a whole 50% of the FCP install base three years later) and the startling rate of updates running at around once per year for cringeworthy level file format rollbacks to the FCP7 model, that occupied the last two years...

then I say yes sir. (the general idea here is to poke a dead fire for controversy right?)

that said tons of people are doing cracking stuff with it? and we are dangerously close to hearing about a warners lot putting out a will smith film off the back of it?
That has to make mad reading you'd think. Off the shelf iMacs and X with redundant thunderbolt drives handling a hundred million of hollywoods cash there.
that would be FCPX canonised.

Also Scott Simmons himself now fancies it for a months long project:
https://twitter.com/editblog/status/486113846088585217

Surely the broader narrative is that we need to set ourselves to killing avid all over again, as once, a decade ago, we marshalled to with FCP classic. It's still the same avid guys sitting there talking about a hamburger menu, using horrible keyframes, no disabled clips, stupid project settings, with ridiculously over engineered trim modes they talk about and never use.

Avid is a fifty year old scrabbling around begging guild protection by being continuously and stupidly irritating to use.

Pick X, premiere, lightworks or resolve, but avid must surely be finally driven off the cliff. It is the neverending worst.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Shane Ross
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:15:26 pm

Yup...it's all over. Germany humiliated Brazil 7-1.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 12:52:12 am

if anyone thinks avid is german football, some other people have a future bridge and a carpet bag leftover to sell them.

Avid is a confused, tailored, terrified, middle aged guild editor protection racket.

If certain avid editors could, they would wipe all the buttons from the interface and clear out the menus. then they could talk with a pension about the hamburger menu, peck at the hidden keyboard commands, and talk about the jkl trimming they never use while they try and figure out how exactly effects nesting works.

It's not so much that FCPX needs to live, more that Avid Operators beg desperately for everyone else to leave them alone.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 9:24:04 am

I do think the hamburger menu needs some sesame seeds added to it, true.

And nobody knows how nesting works. Nobody.


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Dean Neal
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 11, 2014 at 3:33:29 am

"Avid is a confused, tailored, terrified, middle aged guild editor protection racket."

Quote of the year for me...

In terms of FCP X...I can tell you in my areas of work (Broadcast Sport TV) it is slowly gathering acceptance now, where a few years ago it was frankly... laughed out of the room.

The new Library model and the awakenings to the file based digital world has seen FCP X gather some steam.

As for me, I have now delivered several Nationally-aired Motorsport shows and it is now officially my primary weapon of choice.

Things I would like to see is easier XDCAM Optical export, tighter integration with Logic Pro X, Customized User Layouts, Sync indicators (toggle options when we break sync between vision and audio) and an option to skim in the clip browser ONLY.

Dean Neal...


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Charlie Austin
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 11, 2014 at 3:54:31 am

[Dean Neal] "Customized User Layouts,"

Yes to that. :-)

[Dean Neal] "Sync indicators (toggle options when we break sync between vision and audio)"

Yes to that as well... I think the issue may be that every clip in X is it's own entity. Break apart A/V and the relationship is broken. Thus, storylines, Compounds etc. If they can come up with a way to open a compound in a sequence (like expanding components), then the sync thing may be do-able, as you could then open a clip in it's "timeline" in the project, and the A/V connection could be calculated, and then indicated. Who knows, hopefully they'll cook something up...

[Dean Neal] "an option to skim in the clip browser ONLY."

An option would be fine, but I have to say that using the skimmer in the timeline - for me anyway - is a huge timesaver. The less mouse clicks the better. Yes, it's annoying at times, but it's easily disabled. I've really gotten used to it and sorely miss it when I'm in other NLE's.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 12:03:16 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "year for cringeworthy level file format rollbacks to the FCP7 model, that occupied the last two years...

then I say yes sir. (the general idea here is to poke a dead fire for controversy right?)"


I'll play.

So you have a stupid parking lot. You get money from it but it's just dirt and pavement. So you scrape it down the the ground, and instead of just leveling the dirt, you install a smart system with the capability of tracking data on who parks there, for how long, and you put in a parking database so that repete customers can avoid the hassle of fiddling with change. You can give an RFID token to your regulars so they don't have to mess around with coins.

THEN you re-surface it, paint one the lines and open for business. And your clients BITCH because essentially, what they see is the same asphalt and paint that they had before all the dust and inconvenience.

But you laugh, because the underlying work you put in is PRECISELY what will allow you to do a much better job of serving your customers over the coming years, leading to enhanced customer loyalty and whole new levels of service.

Of course, there's always the clueless bozo over in the corner saying "Dammit, I liked the OLD parking lot."

Who the hell uses all the new fangled sensors and reports.

While the parking lot owners see double digit percentage increases in total revenue because they can USE all the freaking data to actually improve their business.

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 2:36:15 am

Of all the new ideas FCP X introduced, like skimmable thumbnails, trackless editing, magnetic timeline, connected clips, metadata-based organization, roles... it would have been astounding to me if all of them worked out exactly they way they were planned. If the original Event/Project structure is the one thing they have to backtrack on, that's a small price to pay for the advantages all the other stuff make in my day to day work.

I certainly hope this is the biggest foundational change they have to make for the foreseeable future.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 2:22:48 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Of all the new ideas FCP X introduced, like skimmable thumbnails, trackless editing, magnetic timeline, connected clips, metadata-based organization, roles..."

Marcus,

You haven't been paying attention to the history segments here in the forum.

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 2:29:03 pm

"Introduced" is a broad term. I'm sure many of these things had been experimented with in some form or another at some point in time.

They were new to Final Cut, and many of them differentiating factors from the other major NLEs.

My overall point is that they haven't done lots of backtracking- but if one out of a dozen ideas didn't work out for them- that's pretty good.

I can still see the rational behind the separated Event Project structure, but it was just too confining in lots of other ways to make it's potential benefits worthwhile.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is it all over? (History Refresher)
on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:12:11 pm

[Marcus Moore] ""Introduced" is a broad term. I'm sure many of these things had been experimented with in some form or another at some point in time. They were new to Final Cut, and many of them differentiating factors from the other major NLEs."

Marcus,

If by "introduced" and "experimented with" you mean "implemented" and "featured" then we are recognizing that FCP X adopted these concepts from other software.

An incomplete history, thanks to Oliver Peters, Micheal Gissing:

Non-standard interfaces include the original Premiere (also a Ubilos product), Quantel Harry (which used a vertical filmstrip metaphor) and Jaleo (now SGO Mistika - which uses a type of trackless timeline). You could also count the original Lightworks interface in this as well.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/12231

Avid had a magnetic timeline function early on.
Mistika had trackless timelines.
Media 100 (and others) had A/B-roll timelines.
DS had a container function (not unlike compound clips).
DPS Velocity had clip linking/grouping functions.
Avid and Premiere Pro had Find and Custom Sift functions with show/hide capabilities.
Various NLEs had combined A/V tracks separate from V-only and A-only and Title-only tracks.
Various NLEs used a single viewer window.
ArtBox (then FC Server) had the database functions.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/41434

"The templates for sophisticated track based non collision editing like Fairlight were known to Apple."
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/48567
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/48558
(note that "non-collision editing" is better than the recently fashionable ideological misnomer "non-destructive timeline")

"Roles look like how a database engineer would add bussing."

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/48567

Franz.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over? (History Refresher)
on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:18:12 pm

Thanks for the recap, Franz. I think I remember most of these conversations.

Very glad I didn't say, "Invented"! ;)


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Is it all over? (History Refresher)
on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:25:55 pm

[Marcus Moore] "Thanks for the recap, Franz."

Marcus,

It's all Oliver and Michael - I'm sure there's more from David Lawrence somewhere with the right search ... I suppose the thanks goes to Tim as well for keeping the resources alive.

Franz.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 3:13:23 am
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Jul 9, 2014 at 3:14:32 am

[Bill Davis] "THEN you re-surface it, paint one the lines and open for business. And your clients BITCH because essentially, what they see is the same asphalt and paint that they had before all the dust and inconvenience."

Then there's the sharp owner who simply re-paves the lot, convinces his customers that he's computerized everything, triples the prices and rakes the money in while his customers brag about the better service they're getting because they were smart enough to pay extra for it. And they have the special magic coin to prove it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 4:43:46 am

So car analogies have moved to car parks. Good to see that we have progressed so far in the past three years.

Meanwhile my humble business is still waiting for the third FCPX job to arrive. At an average of one per year I am glad my car park takes most types of cars and that I didn't fall for one proprietary data base driven token system.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 11:07:04 am

[Michael Gissing] "So car analogies have moved to car parks."

Yeah, likely because I was reminiscing with my sister in San Francisco recently and she reminded me of an old lady who lived in our neighborhood when we were kids growing up in Phoenix. The lady's husband was the smart SOB who bought raw land and instead of complicated office buildings - decided to just toss down some pavement and ended up owning a good swath of the parking lots downtown.

Perpetual gold mine still going strong today.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 10:56:10 am

[Herb Sevush] "Then there's the sharp owner who simply re-paves the lot, convinces his customers that he's computerized everything, triples the prices and rakes the money in while his customers brag about the better service they're getting because they were smart enough to pay extra for it. And they have the special magic coin to prove it.
"


Herb,

If you think the stuff in X is all smoke and mirrors, I feel really sorry for you. Because I suspect that in the not too distant future, short spot stuff is about all that's going to be left for those who edit with a dumb NLE rather than one bolted onto a DAM/Database system.

Adobe understands that with Bridge and a kinda first cousin to the X keyword db running in Lightroom - so it's not like they're not already thinking down the same road. They'll just have to do it by making calls outside the core app rather than having the capacity directly in the NLE code.

What makes an NLE is changing. Not because Apple changed it with X. But rather because they saw the ever increasing complexity comping and realized that their editors needed tools to handle it.

You can string out 40 potential shots on a dumb timeline and pick from among them visually, no problem. When you have 400 (or 4000 clips!) flooding in from every direction to manage - things are different.

Remember, not many years ago, running 10 cameras on a scene was a big, expensive deal.

Now *I* can pull 10 cameras together to shoot something with a couple of phone calls and the promise of buying my colleagues lunch.

And that's where we're going.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 1:33:03 pm

[Bill Davis] "If you think the stuff in X is all smoke and mirrors, I feel really sorry for you."

I was just having fun with your little story Bill, I don't think X is smoke and mirrors.

Your story reminded me of a great producer I worked with for many years. Back in the 80's, when the web was first taking off, we were pitching work at the big Wall St. investment houses. When asked if he had a website Geof always said yes. I asked him why he said yes when I knew he didn't have a site. He said the guys we were talking to never went on the web and barely knew what it was, to them having a website was just an indication of cool. "But what if they do go to check out your site?" "I'll just tell them that its down." He laughed and, by the way, we got the job. Years later, when it actually made financial sense, he built a site, but I always remember that bit of wisdom. So lets say my little post was just an homage to Geof Drummond.


[Bill Davis] "short spot stuff is about all that's going to be left for those who edit with a dumb NLE rather than one bolted onto a DAM/Database system. "

All NLE's are DAM/Database systems. X has keyword collections, which I agree are very powerful and valuable, but the lack of them will not prevent me from efficiently cutting long form on other systems.

[Bill Davis] "You can string out 40 potential shots on a dumb timeline and pick from among them visually, no problem. When you have 400 (or 4000 clips!) flooding in from every direction to manage - things are different. "

My current series has over 2000 clips. I'm not overwhelmed. Feature and documentary editors have been dealing with thousands of clips for decades - there are systems of organization and file naming conventions that make this quite possible. They managed to cut Apocalypse Now without X, I think I can handle a cooking series without it as well.

Also, my timeline is not dumb. Fat and ugly perhaps, but not dumb; and now you've hurt her feelings.

[Bill Davis] "Remember, not many years ago, running 10 cameras on a scene was a big, expensive deal. Now *I* can pull 10 cameras together to shoot something with a couple of phone calls and the promise of buying my colleagues lunch. And that's where we're going."

3 years ago I was the one trying to convince you about a future where a 25 camera iPhone sourced documentary had to be taken into account when designing a multicam editor, while you were arguing that 8 angles would be more than sufficient for X, so I do get a little galled with your lecturing to me about the future of multi-camera editing. But only a little.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jason Porthouse
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 3:03:58 pm

Bill, the trouble is when they re-paved the parking lot they forgot to paint lines on to tell people where to park, and the arrows directing them round. And they installed a big, big magnet at one end of the lot. Now it's just chaos, cars ten deep unable to move and nobody knows where any of the keys are...

(said with tongue firmly in cheek)

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.



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Mitch Ives
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 12:37:06 pm
Last Edited By Mitch Ives on Jul 9, 2014 at 12:37:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "Of course, there's always the clueless bozo over in the corner saying "Dammit, I liked the OLD parking lot.""

Or perhaps there's one who thinks all of that RFID stuff is a violation of their privacy. You know, like knowing your pattern of how long you park there and when, which gets passed along to someone who burglarizes your house? Gathering information can be a double-edged sword...

It's important not to outrun our headlights... and all this cloud stuff is coming faster than people can evaluate it's impact. All this home automation comes to mind. Are we at a point yet where we really know whether having an app that can unlock the doors to your house is definitely a good idea? Using old school locks at least reduces the number of people that are capable of breaking in.

Which brings me to an amusing thought. It appears that the biggest deterrent to car theft these days is having a manual transmission. Apparently the number of people who know how to drive one has dropped off precipitously...

See how I brought it back around to cars?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 2:16:11 pm

As one of the ones dragged kicking and screaming into working with FCPX, since the latest upgrade, I am now liking much of it. One thing I wish a third-party developer would tackle, though, is creating a new DVD and BluRay authoring app that would synergize with FCPX.

I know, the cloud, blah blah blah. Yes. We'll stipulate to that. Meanwhile, I have plenty of clients that still want, and will continue to demand for years yet, DVD or BD with full navigation features, like the movies they rent on redbox. Share to a BD or DVD burn is a stopgap that works okay for making things like spots, but with DVDSP and Adobe Encore both basically EOL'd, there's a need in the market for something that had the same features as those apps.

Optical media authoring with menus and all the navigation tools we're used to having. That will talk to FCPX and Motion, or at least import their files. Get busy on that, somebody, please, I'll buy 2.


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tony west
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 2:59:51 pm

We are in that transition period where the DVD is a technology on it's way out and everybody knows it, so developers have to be saying to themselves, should I invest the time and effort into making a product that has limited life.

Will I make enough money off it?

I'm sure if they thought they could they would.

Folks these days want to look at video on their phones and pads. They want to be able to be mobil and look when they want where they want.

I try to steer clients away from DVD's (thank God many don't ask anymore) and if they still want it I farm that part out to somebody else.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 3:48:28 pm

Tony, the "market" isn't one monolithic thing that all people must slavishly follow in lockstep: there certainly is a large niche, particularly in the events video sphere, and to a smaller extent, in corporate/government/institutional settings, where DVD and/or BD is going to hold strong for a good ten years yet. Yes, cloud and youtube and vimeo are the trend. But just ONE trend. There are plenty of people out there that have their reasons for not migrating as fast as everyone else.

"Making" people migrate to the cloud just to be modern isn't just arrogant, it's bad business, because it is leaving money on the table. It's my opinion that a developer that can work from well-established base code, and doesn't have to create everything from scratch, could efficiently make the product I and others want, and make good money off of it, for years, perhaps a decade. There is money to be made there: certainly not billionaire-class money, but "comfortable living on into retirement" money? Heck, yes.

Particularly, because Apple, Adobe, and all the "cool kids" are not bothering to pick up the small change laying on the floor. The thing about small change is, pick up enough of it, and you have enough for bus fare and something to eat. There is and will be a place for authoring optical media for some time yet. And an opportunity, for a clever designer who can craft the missing piece to the puzzle for people who need it. That is perfect third-party developer territory.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 4:01:06 pm

[Mark Suszko] " DVD and/or BD is going to hold strong for a good ten years yet."

10 years is a LOOOOONNNNGG time. I wouldn't hazard to guess tech trends on that timescale.

You're right that there's no one answer. But I'd be very curious to know the advantages to disk distribution from those still asking for it. In many cases the answer may simply be- "that how we've been doing it."

I think the assumption that someone is going to have a disk player of any sort has already reached it's apex and will only decline from here out.

Again, I'm not doubting people have situations where they're asking for it- I just see the reasons dropping like flies on a very short timescale.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 4:24:40 pm

[Marcus Moore] "
You're right that there's no one answer. But I'd be very curious to know the advantages to disk distribution from those still asking for it. In many cases the answer may simply be- "that how we've been doing it.""


Making a DVD and having the end user only be responsible for putting a disc in a player is about as idiot proof as it gets. That's a major advantage when the person on the other end of the line can't give you any more information than, "Bob told me to tell you to send us a video so we can play it at our sales meeting."


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Mark Suszko
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 4:53:35 pm

Exactly. OUTSIDE of the "cloud", there is very little out there that is as goof-proof, multi-platform, and easy to use as optical media. If you compress in h.265 ,burned as data to 2-layer BD, you'll have almost as much on a 50-cent disk as people now shuttle around on USD external archive drives. They're easy to mass-replicate, cheap to mail, durable yet also cheap enough to be disposable as well.

Hollywood isn't giving up on pressing discs just yet, either. While it may be fewer than before, it's certainly still making them money. Some people want a physical piece of media, period. For whatever reason.

It serves a purpose, for a shrinking but still lucrative customer base.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 5:56:58 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Hollywood isn't giving up on pressing discs just yet, either. While it may be fewer than before, it's certainly still making them money. Some people want a physical piece of media, period. For whatever reason."


Yeah... disk based media may be dying, but I agree with you Mark, it's going to be a really long, drawn out death. Streaming media is great for casual viewing or training material, but when I want a better viewing experience, Blu-ray is better than anything I can watch online or even on cable.

Shawn



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tony west
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 6:00:35 pm
Last Edited By tony west on Jul 9, 2014 at 6:01:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Making a DVD and having the end user only be responsible for putting a disc in a player is about as idiot proof as it gets. That's a major advantage when the person on the other end of the line can't give you any more information than, "Bob told me to tell you to send us a video so we can play it at our sales meeting.""

I agree with this to a point. If that's the case, a sales meeting that folks are at I can see that.

Most folks got SD DVD players and when more and more stuff was being shot HD they where not gonna get the HD quality out of their SD player.

A friend just sent me a video he did for a company that was just this feel good employee video.

Shots of folks just having fun and the history of the company.

It was on Youtube. Years ago that would have been sent out I guess as a DVD or shown at a party once.

When you want to keep something long term a DVD is great for that also (until they stop making players).

I just bought Frozen because my brother worked on it and I want to keep it.

I see the need, I was just explaining why I don't believe folks will line up to make DVD software in the future.


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tony west
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 5:28:39 pm

It's not me "making" them do that.

I would prefer that people not watch my work on their phones. You can't get the full impact that way.

But it's not about what I want, it's about what THEY want. Folks tend to want to watch stuff where and when they want to do it.

Somebody is waiting in the doctors office and they flip out their phone and watch a safety video their boss wanted them to see while they are waiting. Happens all the time.

I don't make the tends, I just keep up with them. That's good business.

I can give them a DVD the same as you, I just farm that part out now if I need to.

I used to make my own labels and all that junk.

If there is such a huge market for it you shouldn't be having such a hard time finding plenty of people to make what your looking for.

Right?


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 6:34:53 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Jul 9, 2014 at 6:54:20 pm

[tony west] "If there is such a huge market for it you shouldn't be having such a hard time finding plenty of people to make what your looking for.

Right?"


Not necessarily, because software development isn't a generic practice. My guess is that the skills needed to make deep, highly functional disk authoring applications aren't that common... and probably expensive because of that. Even at the height of the DVD revolution, there weren't very many applications (maybe less than 5) that could do more than rudimentary menu creation and image mastering... and maybe only two or three that you could consider high-end (scripting, specialized encoding engine, workgroup functionality, etc.). It's sort of like the market for 3D rendering software... lot's of potential customers, not very many developers.

Question back to you Tony, if the market for disk based media is shrinking so rapidly, how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?

Shawn

EDIT: That last bit may have come off a little snarky... didn't mean it that way. Just posing an honest question. :-)


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John Davidson
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:13:46 pm

[Shawn Miller] "if the market for disk based media is shrinking so rapidly, how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?"

Retail hasn't figured out a way to sell a downloadable file in the store?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230488710457930644062114...

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:38:38 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Jul 9, 2014 at 7:51:47 pm

[John Davidson] "[Shawn Miller] "if the market for disk based media is shrinking so rapidly, how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?"

Retail hasn't figured out a way to sell a downloadable file in the store?"


Retail includes online; Amazon, Target, WalMart, Costco, Barnes & Noble, Sears, etc. Not only are DVD and and Blu-ray titles still being produced in quantity, but DVD and Blu-ray players are still readily available from a wide variety of retailers, online and B&M.

EDIT: I also meant to add that many brick and mortar stores also sell iTunes, Amazon and Barnes & Nobel gift cards... so, there are your downladable file sales. :-)

Shawn



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John Davidson
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 8:09:44 pm

And yet their market, according to the article I linked, it declining.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 8:52:36 pm

[John Davidson] "And yet their market, according to the article I linked, it declining."

The article requires a subscription to read the full story. Please note that I didn't dispute that the market was shrinking. The point that I'm making is that the market isn't exactly dead, and IMO, it won't be dead for a long time. Again, the fact that new titles and players are so accessible, doesn't exactly support the notion that the format is going anywhere anytime soon. Remember, this talk has been going on for nearly eight years now. According to "analysts" and "industry insiders" (circa 2006-2008), Blu-ray was only marginally better than DVD, and Blu-ray would be dead by 2012... still waiting.

Shawn



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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 11:02:27 pm

how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?

The same way VHS tapes hung on for years after the majority of people switched to DVDs.
The same way networks insist on protecting the 4x3 frame years after it's almost impossible to buy an SD television.

Inertia.

And there's always a little more money to be made off the late adopters (like my friend who refuses to give up his dot matrix printer). I just smile and wish him well.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 11:55:04 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?

The same way VHS tapes hung on for years after the majority of people switched to DVDs.
The same way networks insist on protecting the 4x3 frame years after it's almost impossible to buy an SD television.

Inertia.

And there's always a little more money to be made off the late adopters (like my friend who refuses to give up his dot matrix printer). I just smile and wish him well."


I don't think this is a good comparison. VHS and cassette tapes were both supplanted by superior formats. Blu-ray still offers many advantages over streaming video; higher quality, lower cost and portability. I'm also not convinced that inertia explains why you can pre-order first run titles for a supposedly dying formats. Personally, I don't think disk based media will meet the "true death" until streaming media can reliably deliver an equal experience at a similar price point. Until then , I think things will pretty much continue as they are; people will watch both, some will favor streaming, some will favor watching disks... very few people will take an either or approach.

Shawn



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tony west
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 5:25:58 am

[Shawn Miller] "Question back to you Tony, if the market for disk based media is shrinking so rapidly, how is it that DVD and blu-ray titles are so ubiquitous in retail?"

Hi Shawn, this a little bit different from what I was talking with Mark about. I was referring to corporate video production when in years past they would ask for a DVD to show employees and now they ask you to just put it up on youtube or their own site.

Like when I have to watch safety videos for FOX and ESPN remote work and they have thousands of freelancers around the world. You go to the site to watch. Crazy to try to send out dvd's for something like that.

As far as people buying movie DVD's, yeah people will be doing that for a while I'm sure we all agree, but even with that I don't see people in the airport with portable dvd players as much as I see them watching movies on their iPads. Maybe that's just what I'm seeing.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:45:30 pm

[tony west] "Hi Shawn, this a little bit different from what I was talking with Mark about. I was referring to corporate video production when in years past they would ask for a DVD to show employees and now they ask you to just put it up on youtube or their own site."

Hi Tony, fair enough. Apologies for straying so far from your point. I will agree that DVD handoff is rare for me as well (in my work life), 10 years ago, 50% of my deliverables were via disc, now it's more like 5%. In my indie film life though, many festivals still require discs, but nearly everyone who wants a copy of my projects want an authored Blu-ray or DVD.

[tony west] "
As far as people buying movie DVD's, yeah people will be doing that for a while I'm sure we all agree, but even with that I don't see people in the airport with portable dvd players as much as I see them watching movies on their iPads. Maybe that's just what I'm seeing."


Yes, totally agree. Video on the go has really taken off. Not many folks on portable disc players in the airport (though you can rent them), but I think we'll see disks in the living room and the car seat for sometime.

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 11:58:13 pm

[Mark Suszko] "The thing about small change is, pick up enough of it, and you have enough for bus fare and something to eat."

Not quite sure how too many of us can be a successful version of THIS guy...

http://nypost.com/2011/06/20/got-his-mined-in-the-gutter/

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 6:09:18 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Optical media authoring with menus and all the navigation tools we're used to having."

Optical media authoring has become a niche market. If you want more than Toast does, you might have to buy a PC and spend some money on the authoring package.

Sony offers DVD Architect Pro (for DVD and Blu-Ray), and both Blu-print and DoStudio (for advanced Blu-ray). Scenarist is still kicking around, too, and I think they have a Blu-ray version.

Last time I had to deliver DVD (maybe a year ago?), I used Encore. It's not dead yet, and it's nowhere near as dusty as my BVW-75...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 12:28:00 am

I still have to make DVDs/ Blurays for archives, funding bodies, fetival applications and sale. I don't like it as I also have to make the various files for master archiving (ProRes etc), web and now DCPs. So I seem to be just making more deliverables. Only thing that has changed is I rarely make digi beta or HDCam tape masters but still they are often on deliverable lists and still get made.

When I bought the HDCam deck seven years ago I knew I had to get five good years out of it to break even. I gambled and won. The digi beta has long been a winner after owning it for over ten years. The fact that I still need to support these basic broadcast formats is in spite of the hype broadcast technicians told me seven years ago that all deliverables would be digital files not tape within five years. So it seems entirely reasonable to predict a market for optical media that could last another ten years. Once again on this forum it shows that there is still a huge diversity of work flow and markets that we feed.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 12:00:32 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Adobe Encore both basically EOL'd"

Encore is still available and while I understand perhaps the intent of saying the product is 'end of life' it is important to note that it is in fact not and still a part of Creative Cloud for most folks.

I am often asked the question, "Why don't you add more features to Encore?" I usually respond with this question, "What would you like me to add?" Because, Encore is cross platform 64-bit application, uses Photoshop's PSD format for menus, supports DVD and Blu-ray, has decent navigation logic, uses the timeline metaphor, supports multiple clips in a timeline (somewhat unique), and even supports some relatively advanced features like blu-ray pop-up menus. Now, I'm sure some folks can actually chime in with feature requests, but my point is that Encore is a) still there b) supports 99% of users with their needs.

Dennis
Adobe guy


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Steve Connor
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 12:06:49 pm

Encore is very good, we use it a lot for our commercial DVD releases, I do hope that Adobe at least keep it working with future OS upgrades.

Steve Connor
Mellowing slowly


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Shawn Miller
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:49:25 pm

[Dennis Radeke] ""What would you like me to add?""

Integration with the CC applications, please. Making animated menus in AE used to be pretty sweet... would love to have C4D in the mix. :-)

Shawn



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tony west
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 3:20:26 pm

We have a very strong union town here.

All of our stations are represented, so when I attend a meeting it's a chance to find out what a great deal of folks are doing in the market here.

As I attended a meeting last week, X came up. While folks liked a lot of the features, they said they didn't really have time to learn it.

Legend was working for them and they knew it and were fast on it. They are not shooting anything 4K so they didn't feel any pressure to move.

I think that's one of the main things X is up against. I don't think they would take time to learn any new system unless they really had to.

Some of them have taken to it and love it and some feel like at some point they will get around to it.

I understood where they were coming from. Just keep on doing what your doing until it becomes a problem.

It's just gonna take time.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is it all over?
on Jul 9, 2014 at 5:25:27 pm

[Steve Connor] "Haven't seen it this quiet here for a while, did FCPX win?
"


Not won, perhaps, but "winning" certainly.







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