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Craig Seeman
Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 1:50:28 am

http://www.redsharknews.com/post/item/1750-lightworks-for-apple-os-x-is-her...

Available Wednesday June 11




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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:19:12 am

...and with that, the debate will be closed for good.



ha!


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David Mathis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:23:58 am

Wait until Resolve 11 comes out. Should be very interesting.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:25:27 am

[David Mathis] "Wait until Resolve 11 comes out. Should be very interesting."

David, will you please make this your signature once and for all?


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David Mathis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:29:45 am

Yes. Sorry for any problems I have caused.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:38:04 am

[David Mathis] "Yes. Sorry for any problems I have caused."

It was a joke, bud. I was just joking around with you. No problems have been created in the writing of your posts!

Jeremy


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Mitch Ives
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:38:46 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "David, will you please make this your signature once and for all?"

Only if I get to write yours and Bill's... ;-)

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:52:38 am

[Mitch Ives] "Only if I get to write yours and Bill's... ;-)"

Just wait until Resolve 11 comes out, then you can write mine.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:19:37 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just wait until Resolve 11 comes out, then you can write mine."

LOL... I trust you to write your own...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Gary Huff
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:52:03 am

[David Mathis] "Wait until Resolve 11 comes out. Should be very interesting."

Resolve 11 and Lightworks...two NLEs(-ish for Resolve at least) that everyone brings up but no one uses.

Lovely.


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David Lawrence
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:59:37 am

[Gary Huff] "Resolve 11 and Lightworks...two NLEs(-ish for Resolve at least) that everyone brings up but no one uses."

Yet.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Gary Huff
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:51:44 pm

[David Lawrence] "Yet."

2014 is the year of Linux on the desktop! I just know it!


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:37:36 am

Nope no one using Lightworks at all:



More Oscar and BAFTA winning shows than any NLE next to Avid.

I will say though, after just a few minutes of playing with Resolve 11 at Cinegear, and having owned Lightworks Pro - my money is on Resolve. I think it will become the NLE of choice for a LOT of folks in the very near future.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:41:09 am

Maybe "Lightworks vs. Resolve: The Debate."

What say you, Timmy?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:09:39 am

Since one of the former Apple FCP engineers is now in charge of Resolve editing features and Resolve looks far more like FCP 8 than Lightworks and it's basically FREE, I'm thinking another name may be more a propos?

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:30:29 am

Which name?


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Charlie Austin
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:33:03 am

[Lance Bachelder] "my money is on Resolve. I think it will become the NLE of choice for a LOT of folks in the very near future."

I think a lot of folks may use it, but I also think that, despite some really great features, it's gonna take a while to mature into something that works as seamlessly as any of the "major" NLE's. Looking forward to playing with Lightworks though. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Mathis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:39:05 pm

Interested in Lightworks myself but because I planning on shooting in RAW with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, most likely going to use Resolve 11, when it gets here. I am not tossing FCP X aside anytime soon, in fact it will be my go to NLE of choice for most things. Might even use it as a finishing tool, after all the integration with Motion is a huge benefit for some projects. Just hoping Red Giant Universe will be supported in Resolve, but not likely to happen anytime soon.

By the way, is there a subscription plan to Lightworks? For some reason, I just want to spend money on a monthly basis. Perhaps the subscription bug has bit me. :-)


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Mitch Ives
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:41:27 pm

[Charlie Austin] "I think a lot of folks may use it, but I also think that, despite some really great features, it's gonna take a while to mature into something that works as seamlessly as any of the "major" NLE's. Looking forward to playing with Lightworks though. :-)"

Sounds familiar... where have I heard this before... oh yeah, thats what they said about X for the first two years...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Charlie Austin
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:48:56 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Sounds familiar... where have I heard this before... oh yeah, thats what they said about X for the first two years..."

Hey, I'm not knocking it or saying it's unsuitable for "professionals", which is what was, and sometimes still is, said about X. I like how it looks, and it seems to work well. Though the hardware requirements are steeper than say, X, Pr or MC at this point. R11 is gonna be an awesome online/finishing tool, and I think that's probably their plan. I doubt anyone will be cutting on-set on a laptop with it for a while.

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Mitch Ives
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:54:09 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Hey, I'm not knocking it or saying it's unsuitable for "professionals", which is what was, and sometimes still is, said about X. I like how it looks, and it seems to work well. Though the hardware requirements are steeper than say, X, Pr or MC at this point. R11 is gonna be an awesome online/finishing tool, and I think that's probably their plan. I doubt anyone will be cutting on-set on a laptop with it for a while."

Didn't mean to suggest that you were. My comment was tong-in-cheek. Remember, we always do things the same way... right up until it changes...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Charlie Austin
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:56:05 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Didn't mean to suggest that you were. My comment was tong-in-cheek. Remember, we always do things the same way... right up until it changes..."

Yep. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Gary Huff
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:28:44 am

[Lance Bachelder] "More Oscar and BAFTA winning shows than any NLE next to Avid."

Lovely. Was hoping for a link to the last project you edited in Lightworks.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:05:39 pm

You just said that "no one" uses it. I think the graphic speaks for itself - I don't cut with it and probably wouldn't have anything worthy to be added if I did.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Gary Huff
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:10:41 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:12:42 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "You just said that "no one" uses it."

I was totally being hyperbolic, but the underlying meaning was that "no one here" uses it.

Besides, film editing is pure editing, not like elsewhere. All they do is edit the picture, and then it gets handed off for color, sound, ect. That's not really the case outside of the system.

This talk just smacks of the "this is the year of Linux on the desktop" in computing circles, which is an annual claim.


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tony west
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:12:16 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "More Oscar and BAFTA winning shows than any NLE next to Avid.
"


I'm fascinated by this Lance. Are you surprised by the gap between folks that (I guess use this in LA for films) and the user base outside of LA?


I don't know of one production house or editor in my town that uses Lightworks.

I don't know that I had even heard of it until I started following this forum.
What do you think accounts for that user gap?


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:00:02 pm

I only know of one team in LA that uses it - the guys that cut my old bosses movies Nutty Professor, Bruce Almighty etc. Every Scorcese movie has been cut with it. I know it's still pretty popular in UK. I bought the Pro version last year to play around with but haven't cut anything on it as I haven't had time to really dig deep. Hard enough with all the FCPX hoopla, CC and Vegas updates but we'll see...

Resolve seems to suit me better as it's has a traditional source/record workflow plus tracks and audio mixer not to mention pretty good color timing features all rolled into a very sexy FCPX-like interface design. Stability is gonna be key but the feature set is the best I've ever seen in any NLE.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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tony west
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:17:14 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Resolve seems to suit me better as it's has a traditional source/record workflow"

I bet Pr is happy that Resolve didn't come out 3 years ago when X first came out and people started wondering what they would do.

They are in a better spot now. I think folks have had time to go to Pr and get settle in.


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:56:38 pm

True - I'm settled in and cutting on it right now - but still excited about Resolve - just looks better to me.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 10:35:30 pm

Gotta think that "free" is going to be a pretty big factor for people choosing "rent" Premiere or use what appears to be a stellar app in Redolve 11. I like Adobe products quite a bit. But since they'll only rent them to be, it's best if I break that addiction. It's not healthy. :)

Light works obviously hasn't made mass market inroads because it wasn't available to a large part of the market. It wasn't on the Mac. Both are pretty big announcements I think. Maybe they'll take a little of Adobe's share.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:39:36 am

Can't wait for the inevitable "Lightworks or Not: The Debate" forum.

On a related note, I was thinking while reading some of the recent threads about the idea that it takes a while to really internalize a different system (see Bill Davis, et al). As one of the resident old men here, I recalled my favorite NLE ever, the Immix VideoCube (Turbo Cube, Accom Sphere, etc.) It really worked like nothing else before or since. In many ways, FCPX feels very similar. The interface was just as quirky, and once I got used to it, I could fly on that thing like nobody's business. But man, the Avid guys hated the thing, even as the relatively inexperienced took to it like a duck to water. I came to it from linear online, so I had few preconceptions about non-linear editing. Amusingly, when I first got a Final Cut legacy system (v.1, back when you had to render a dissolve), it took me a couple of days to stop trying to make it work like a Cube and let it do its thing! At least by then I had Avid as a reference.

One thing it had in common with Lightworks is the custom controller. The Cube controller had a jog wheel with a bunch of customizable buttons. The wheel was used as you would expect it to be used, but also for changing the value of certain parameters. For example, add a fade to the in-point of the clip on the B-roll track by holding one button and moving the wheel. All could be done one-handed. The visual on the clip was a ramp that expanded and contracted to match the length of the fade. (Hello, FCPX-I'm talking to you.) Really fast, very tactile and intuitive. Plus limited audio faders, All on one controller. When used in conjunction with the keyboard, it was a very elegant solution. Much like I expect the Lightworks controller system to be.

A bit OT for this thread, perhaps, but it's A-Roll track was much like the Primary Storyline, and the B-Roll track acted much like the connected clips. Cut your A-roll, add B-roll on top, fade in and fade out the b-roll clips (i.e., dissolve) or use effects. Audio included with the video. One monitor: the actual picture monitor, which switched to show "source" clip or "record" timeline. Kinda like an online bay (or FCPX, for that matter). Plus a realtime alpha key track. "Mixdown" to comp effects, truly an artifact of the limited hardware capabilities of the day (but the only system that could output broadcast quality, full raster (720x486) video).

While the Lightworks has obvious tracks and a source/record layout, I expect it to show its film roots in a big way. And the sharing workflow sounds a helluva lot like Unity/ISIS, which would be great. Of course, the Pro version with all the codecs ain't gonna be no $299, that's for sure. But it sure looks interesting.

tl;dr: the more things change, the more they stay the same.


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:15:13 am

That's where I got my start as well. August 1993. We had the first one in GA if I remember correctly. Why can't somebody bring back the work area below the timeline? Such an incredibly useful concept that I was blown away when I found out Media 100 didn't have it. Or Avid. Or anyone since.


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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:29:48 am

Tru dat. I guess the browser and smart collections sorta serve that function now. But I'm with you. I really liked the work area.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:45:00 am

'Bout time. They first announced the Mac version nearly two years ago, right?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:23:09 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "'Bout time. They first announced the Mac version nearly two years ago, right?"

Based on the retro Mac wallpaper in the image above, I'd say six...

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:06:56 pm

Snow Leopard wall paper. So 4-5 years? But I think they announced the begin of development in 11. They showed it at NAB '13 in pre-alpha stage.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:40:32 pm

[Bret Williams] "Why can't somebody bring back the work area below the timeline? Such an incredibly useful concept that I was blown away when I found out Media 100 didn't have it. Or Avid. Or anyone since."

What was the work area like?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:14:54 pm
Last Edited By Bret Williams on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:18:28 pm

Nothing amazing, just an area below the timeline that moved along with it, where you could throw clips, graphics, or audio bits that you might use. I used it kinda like auditions. This was a time when there was really only the equivalent of one video track and a title/grfx track. So there wasn't any room for putting clips on another track. Very useful little "offline" storage area. It didn't have to be key worded, logged, or put in a bin and sorted by date, etc. It was like a bin with no organization. In storyboard mode. Except it wasn't thumbnails, it was little clip pieces just like in the timeline. Sure you could do the same with empty tracks or auditions or clips that aren't enabled, but nothing was quite as simple, handy and visual. With all our organizational tools these days it might be redundant, but I still think it'd be handy.

EDIT: Here's a horrible image. But it's the area below the defined timeline at the bottom. Mostly behind the pop-up window.



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tony west
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:25:26 pm

[Bret Williams] "just an area below the timeline that moved along with it, where you could throw clips, graphics, or audio bits that you might use. "

I kind of smiled when I read this part because that's how I find myself using X

I'm constantly dragging clips below the timeline and muting them in case I want to use them later (they don't move along with it though).

I don't want to go back and look for them, they are just sitting down there for me hehehe

I never really worked like that before, I think it would have been too cluttered.


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Richard Herd
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:35:47 pm

[tony west] "I'm constantly dragging clips below the timeline and muting them in case I want to use them later (they don't move along with it though)."

Good idea! Thanks!


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Herb Sevush
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:37:01 pm

[tony west] "I'm constantly dragging clips below the timeline and muting them in case I want to use them later ... I never really worked like that before, I think it would have been too cluttered."

I worked like that in FCP legacy all the time, in my case the video clips were up on tracks 3 and 4, the audio also on 3 and 4 - disabled.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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tony west
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:05:09 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I worked like that in FCP legacy all the time, in my case the video clips were up on tracks 3 and 4, the audio also on 3 and 4 - disabled."

A perfect example right there Herb of just personal preference : )

I just like grabbing the one source and dragging all three down to a spot at once (or back up when I want it).

I respect your organized way of doing it. Another editor might look at my timeline and say, what's that doing down there? hahaha

I guess that's really it for me. I'm doing multiple things in one move. I'm just trying to work as efficiently as I can.


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 10, 2014 at 10:27:48 pm

Well yeah we have multiple tracks now. Back then, and in Media 100 days as well, there just weren't but maybe 2 tracks. No room for those disabled clips. But your disabled clips are still connected. Why don't they basically stay put? That's what I meant. As you moved the timeline back and forth they moved with it. Connected in a sense to the timeline above.


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Gary Huff
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta (long post - sorry)
on Jun 11, 2014 at 3:01:17 am

[Jeff Markgraf] "Can't wait for the inevitable "Lightworks or Not: The Debate" forum"

I predict it will have just as much action as the current one.


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David Lawrence
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 5:26:03 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Available Wednesday June 11"

It went live today, downloading now. Come and get it! :)

http://www.lwks.com/

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
http://lnkd.in/Cfz92F
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl
vimeo.com/dlawrence/albums


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:10:18 pm

That's cool and all, but I think of the NLE as the center of a hub of applications I need to edit video with. Thinking this out, even if I wasn't working for Adobe, I could not consider working with an NLE that does not have basic integration with other apps I need to get my work done (in my case AI, PS, AE, Au). I recall that integration with those apps was so very painful with Avid and FCP.

How are you going to get the job done in only the NLE? Or are you going to hope for eventual integration with other apps that do similar things? Not trolling, I am curious about this.

Kevin Monahan
Support Product Manager—DVA
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Bill Davis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:52:14 pm

Hi Kevin!

Can't speak for how anyone else works, but for me this Thursday will be typical. I fly to San Diego the night before. 8am call on a local golf course. We're shooting product stuff for a putter maker. Two 5Ds and 2 GoPros in the morning. Art director on-set will do title design based on the shots he sees and hand me the specs. We may or may not use Motion to build the titles depending on his ideas. Mid-afternoon we're at the manufacturers offices for 2 interviews. Ingest on set. Rough cut that evening w/ scopes based color matching between the indoor and outdoor stuff. I'm home on Friday and will likely have approval cuts uploaded before I get home.
The work will probably go live to the company web site mid week depending on Agency approval, but I'm confident that whatever they need, I can get it done on my laptop.

I understand that others like or need or just want to have half a dozen complex, dedicated toolsets at hand - but honestly nothing in this scenario requires more than X.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:11:42 pm

Hey Kevin,

There's still a lot of work (well, a lot of movie/tv work) that's done offline/online with compartmentalized workflows (editors edit, mixers do the audio, colorists color, etc.,) so having an integrated suite like CC isn't advantageous because it's not a tip to tail Adobe workflow. There's still room for great, stand alone NLEs in the market.


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 8:10:24 pm

Hi Andrew,
And thanks to all that thoughtfully addressed my post.

[Andrew Kimery] "so having an integrated suite like CC isn't advantageous because it's not a tip to tail Adobe workflow. There's still room for great, stand alone NLEs in the market."

I see. So it seems that integration matters less to those at the very high end (as in LA/NYC TV-Film workflows) as you and Lance describe, and for some at the lower end/run-gun level as Bill Davis tells us.

Thanks!
Kevin

Kevin Monahan
Support Product Manager—DVA
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 8:37:31 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "I see. So it seems that integration matters less to those at the very high end (as in LA/NYC TV-Film workflows) as you and Lance describe, and for some at the lower end/run-gun level as Bill Davis tells us. "

Speaking in very general terms, yes. But for things that require faster turn around time (which it sounded like Bill's example did) then integration can become more important even if the budget is bigger simply because you don't have time to go between a bunch of different, specialized programs.

For example, back in the day I used to do color correction inside of FCP itself and I was satisfied with it (and spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a grading system wasn't an option). Then Apple released Apple Color and I was like "Holy cow this is amazing! I'm never coloring in FCP again." For the work I did Color was so much better than FCP (or any FCP plugin) that it wasn't even funny, but occasionally I'd be in a deadline situation where the roundtrip to Color wasn't a viable workflow option so I ended up coloring in FCP. So even though Color was hands down the superior coloring program it wasn't always the best tool for the job.

It's kinda like that old photography saying, the best camera is the one you have with you.


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:12:32 am

To expand on your statement, are you saying...

The run and gun low end doesn't have any need for it and the high end gets great results from specialization?

So where does that put the CC integration market? The mediocre middle? Just extrapolating. :)


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Charlie Austin
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:41:13 am

[Bret Williams] "So where does that put the CC integration market? The mediocre middle? Just extrapolating. :)
"


Enough of the "pro /not pro/high/middle/low nonsense. Editing is an art form, I propose we define those who prefer the order and familiarity of tracks etc as Classicists, and people who prefer a more free form pallet as Romantics.

Nicer don't you think? :-) Much better than Trackheads and Fanbois....

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jok Daniel
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:09:16 am
Last Edited By Jok Daniel on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:09:36 am

[Charlie Austin] "Editing is an art form, I propose we define those who prefer the order and familiarity of tracks etc as Classicists, and people who prefer a more free form pallet as Romantics. "

Then Lightworks, with its extremely malleable and freeform organisational model wedded to a classic tracked timeline, would be Romantic Classicism.


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Charlie Austin
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:22:43 am

[Jok Daniel] "[Charlie Austin] "Editing is an art form, I propose we define those who prefer the order and familiarity of tracks etc as Classicists, and people who prefer a more free form pallet as Romantics. "

Then Lightworks, with its extremely malleable and freeform organisational model wedded to a classic tracked timeline, would be Romantic Classicism."


Based on my admittedly limited time playing around with it today, I'd say maybe more Cubist. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
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Bill Davis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 8:45:58 am

Oooh, art metaphores! I'll play.

They released X and everyone thought it was just for cartoons.

Then somebody noticed stuff like Peanuts and Pogo arriving.

Which evolved into a flood of graphic novels. But the serious artists kept saying "see, it's only for cartoons!"

Then wow, Toy Story.

And Spirited Away. and Sin City and Roger Rabbitt

And before you knew it freeking Frozen was making monster bank and nobody could remember themselves saying... "see, it's only for cartoons."

The End

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 9:00:04 am

[Bret Williams] "To expand on your statement, are you saying...

The run and gun low end doesn't have any need for it and the high end gets great results from specialization?

So where does that put the CC integration market? The mediocre middle? Just extrapolating. :)"


Well, yeah though I think mid tier (in terms of specialization) is more apt than mediocre. If you need/want more graphical, compositing and/or color grading abilities than what you can get stock in an NLE then Adobe CC is a good choice because you get access to specialized tools that are connected via Dynamic Link/Direct Link. 'Sharing' timelines between AE, PP and SpeedGrade is certainly nicer than the import/export dance that has to happen between apps that don't talk to each other.

I think Adobe CC could be good for people that have different departments in house (or for an individual that wears many hats and need more than what an NLE alone can provide). If they can get SpeedGrade to be a close competitor to Resolve then I think they've got a pretty slick combo in PP & SG. It's very cool that when you get a PP timeline back from SG that the color grading is an applied as a filter (always wanted the FCP 7 to Color round trip to work like that).

Of course how quickly (and deeply) Resolve turns into an editor could make the PP/SG direct link less mind blowing than it otherwise could have been.


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:29:26 pm

Agreed. And while low end / high end were Kevin's words, and mediocre was my word , it was a question posed to him. If he's defining the high end and low ends as such that don't care for integration, then where does he see CC fitting? But it's all tongue in cheek anyway because I'm pretty sure he didn't mean any malice by calling Bills work low end.

In my experience, the specialists are going to use whatever app suits them. Nuke, AE, resolve, 3D studio max, pro tools, etc. and on the scheme of things, this whole CC thing is never going to mean much to them. Is that what we really want anyway? The MS Office of video production? Let's celebrate the tools that make different apps from completely different developers work together. Adobe apps are great, but integration shouldn't be the selling point. Let's make sure 1984 isn't like 1984. Can't we all get along?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:57:18 pm

[Bret Williams] "In my experience, the specialists are going to use whatever app suits them. Nuke, AE, resolve, 3D studio max, pro tools, etc. and on the scheme of things, this whole CC thing is never going to mean much to them. Is that what we really want anyway? The MS Office of video production? Let's celebrate the tools that make different apps from completely different developers work together. Adobe apps are great, but integration shouldn't be the selling point. Let's make sure 1984 isn't like 1984. Can't we all get along?"

The Adobe apps aren't insular -- you can use Ps, Ae, Pr or whatever in conjunction with any other app you like -- but Adobe does have a pretty compelling integration offering with technologies like Dynamic Link and Direct Link.

If that extra integration isn't valuable, why do we see so many requests for "Send to Motion" here from FCP X users?

I think that Creative Cloud punches well above its weight, specifically because of its diversity and integration. Ae/Au/Il/Pr/Ps/Sg are a set of specialist tools that happen to be packaged together, and taken together, they offer a really broad toolset that (for the price) is surprisingly competitive with a big hero finishing box.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:12:06 pm

[Bret Williams] "Let's celebrate the tools that make different apps from completely different developers work together. Adobe apps are great, but integration shouldn't be the selling point."

Personally I'd love it if all apps (even from different vendors) could integrate the way Adobe's apps do (or the way some of the Final Cut Suite apps did). Having to use third party apps like Automatic Duck or interchange formats like XML is kludgey because it's rarely a 100%, seamless exchange of information.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:56:42 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Personally I'd love it if all apps (even from different vendors) could integrate the way Adobe's apps do (or the way some of the Final Cut Suite apps did)."

I thought that the way the Baselight was moving towards a plugin that worked in an extremely functional but limited way in a host app, and then integrated to a standalone system was a really cool way to proceed. And that after grading in the standalone base light, you could send that info back to FCP and render.

Alas, FCP7 was killed mercilessly in battle, and unfortunately, Baselight for FCP became a casualty of that war.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 6:05:19 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I thought that the way the Baselight was moving towards a plugin that worked in an extremely functional but limited way in a host app, and then integrated to a standalone system was a really cool way to proceed. And that after grading in the standalone base light, you could send that info back to FCP and render."

I'd forgotten about that. Yes, that was a unique approach to the problem. Baselight made a similar plugin for Avid though I think the very powerful Resolve Lite was like an atom bomb dropped on competitors in the growing desktop colorist market.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 6:05:43 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I thought that the way the Baselight was moving towards a plugin that worked in an extremely functional but limited way in a host app, and then integrated to a standalone system was a really cool way to proceed. And that after grading in the standalone base light, you could send that info back to FCP and render. Alas, FCP7 was killed mercilessly in battle, and unfortunately, Baselight for FCP became a casualty of that war."

Baselight Editions is carrying on. There's an Avid version out, and a very exciting NUKE version in beta, due out soon. (Doubly exciting in the context of NUKE STUDIO, due out late this year.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 6:02:07 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Personally I'd love it if all apps (even from different vendors) could integrate the way Adobe's apps do (or the way some of the Final Cut Suite apps did). Having to use third party apps like Automatic Duck or interchange formats like XML is kludgey because it's rarely a 100%, seamless exchange of information."

Not that I think this is what you're looking for but Adobe has 'content panel' technology that allows third party vendors to integrate with Adobe video products.

As for Automatic Duck, XML, AAF, etc. they are good for what they do because they seek to resolve how different companies handle media, timelines and the like. Granted they're not perfect, but they are generally acceptable. To truly get the kind of deep or 'perfect' integration you seek, my personal opinion is that there would only be one company in the market in order for that to happen. That frankly wouldn't be good for anybody.

My 2 cents,
Dennis


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Richard Herd
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:17:45 pm

[Bill Davis] "nothing in this scenario requires more than X"

Will you be using a company logo? What format will that be in?

I am now stealing Walter S's argument that .aep should be an open source format like .psd. (Note, I may have changed the terms by accident.)


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Bill Davis
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:24:44 pm

I'll drop in whatever the art director supplies. Might be a layered psd, or a tiff, or I might take his specs and just build it in X directly if its mostly type - but could be something out of any design program. I may have to momentarily visit Graphic Converter or Pixelmator to be fair - but I have dropped my Photoshop rental and am down to just Lightroom in terms of Adobe SW on my Mac. If they ever push that over to rental only, I'll have to hope Apple does an Aperture X version soon! Sigh.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bret Williams
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:19:29 am

I've dropped it as well. But you didn't mention any vector apps! When they hand you an ai or eps file and need you to animate the pieces, no amount of bitmap editors are going to do you much good. You need to pull out the vector elements and animate them.

For that we have iDraw! I think it's $25. Very similar to Illustrator, especially for those that are using Illustrator as a means to an end, not as a designer. Half a months Adobe rent can have you iDraw for life. No it's not Ai. But it's pretty decent. There's just such a ridiculous divide in cost here.

Me, I've still got CS5 Master Collection. PS, AE, Ai seem to be working just fine in Mavericks. For how long, I don't know.


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Richard Herd
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 11, 2014 at 7:24:00 pm

[Bill Davis] "the art director supplies"

What app are you using to turn illustrator art into {whatever you need} & what is that you need, for you X-flow?

Thanks!


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:14:26 pm

On shows with a budget shows like studio feature films integration is not important at all. Editors are hired for their talent to edit - that's all - they don't delve into Photoshop to fix something, they edit. If their system crashes they go on a break and wait for someone to fix it. Their big time union Editors making 5 to 15 grand a week to EDIT.

For the rest of us, who are used to doing everything ourselves and scrambling for every dollar, integration may be very important, but it's never necessary.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Herb Sevush
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:32:07 pm

[Kevin Monahan] "I could not consider working with an NLE that does not have basic integration with other apps I need to get my work done"

It's also very limited in third party plug-ins. As much as I want this to succeed, LW is not for me, it's meant for an off-line, on-line feature film workflow, at least for now.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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David Lawrence
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:39:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "It's also very limited in third party plug-ins. As much as I want this to succeed, LW is not for me, it's meant for an off-line, on-line feature film workflow, at least for now."

Yep, me neither. It's got a long way to go and seems geared to a very specific workflow model that doesn't apply to me. Let's see what Resolve 11 brings to the table.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
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Jok Daniel
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:01:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "As much as I want this to succeed, LW is not for me, it's meant for an off-line, on-line feature film workflow, at least for now."

True, but it's also one of the best available tools for such a workflow. Maybe even the best. Which is why so many well-known feature films were cut on it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 10, 2014 at 9:10:49 pm

[Jok Daniel] "True, but it's also one of the best available tools for such a workflow. Maybe even the best."

No argument from me on that, I just wish they had some kind of plug-in architecture and some way to round trip from AE, Resolve, etc. I think they have some integration with Boris Red, which actually meets a lot of my needs, but I've heard it's pretty buggy. I would like to take advantage of it's editing tools, but without some GFX, EFX tools it just won't work for me, but then again I'm not cutting features.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Michael Gissing
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:10:33 am

Even given the Mac centric nature of this forum, the truth is that the Windows & Linux versions of Lightworks has been available for a long time. I played with it 18 months ago. As an edit tool it is good but my focus is potential use for finishing so things like round tripping with Resolve were more important as well as translating projects imported from other systems and titling.

Obviously Resolve 11 as a finishing tool has my attention now and I would be happy to use it as an edit tool for the little editing I need to do. But the questions being posed as to whether this beta release might signal a game changer seems strange to me as it is only one OS platform being added and so far Lightworks, although significant, has not changed the world. Given that NLEs like FCPX are not cross platform, the fact that Lightworks now is shouldn't significantly change anything apart from being on some peoples radar now.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:42:17 am

[Michael Gissing] "Lightworks now is shouldn't significantly change anything apart from being on some peoples radar now."

Post, at least broadcast and film post, is a pretty Mac-centric environment so I think Lightworks is going to get a bigger look now just because it's available on the most used OS. While I agree Lightworks probably won't set the world on fire I think the NLE race is still wide open and Lightworks has an opportunity to carve out a chunk.

FCPX has improved a lot but many people are still turned off by it.

Adobe & PPro were all poised to swoop in and probably take up the vast majority of FCP 7 users that were expecting a FCP 8 but the timing of the Create Cloud move couldn't have been worse.

Avid is still the most expensive option (though pricing is much more comparable than in days past) but they are having some corporate leadership and accounting problems that bring into question their ability to offer competing products (and keep the company from folding).

Lightworks has pedigree (even if it's not famously known like some other NLEs), a familiar workflow, an affordable price point and maybe (I've never used it before) the best multi-editor experience besides Avid+ISIS.

The NLE market is just totally up for grabs right now. Hell, DaVinci Resolve 11 was the talk of NAB based on the assumption that Blackmagic was going to eventually make Resolve into a deep, full fledged NLE.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:14:06 am
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:36:22 am

[Andrew Kimery] "Post, at least broadcast and film post, is a pretty Mac-centric environment..."

Not if you're talking broadly about post. 3DS doesn't even have a Mac version as an example. I've actually been to post houses where the 3D/VFX sides were all PCs... HP workstations running Linux and Windows are really popular for high end VFX work BTW. :-)

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:39:53 am

[Shawn Miller] "Not if you're talking broadly about post. 3DS doesn't even have a Mac version as an example. I've actually been to post houses where the 3D/VFX sides were all PCs... HP workstations running Linux and Windows are really popular for high end VFX work BTW. :-)"

Good point. I don't work on FX heavy things so besides finishing possibly being done on a PC running Linux I rarely run into PCs on a typical gig. Now that I think about it the last time I was on a project where someone was cutting using a PC was '05/'06.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:44:15 am

It all depends on the geography and the type of work. Lots of AVIDs are PC and with the long dev time and possibility of no more Mac Pros, I have seen a lot of editors go to PC in the past three years.

Many tried Lightworks but it came at a time when 7 was abandoned and Adobe Pr made big strides so you might be surprised at the number of converts to PC. Lots have been running Hackintosh Mac dual boot just quietly.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 7:52:43 am

[Andrew Kimery] " Now that I think about it the last time I was on a project where someone was cutting using a PC was '05/'06."

Holy crap! Nearly a decade without seeing a single PC in editorial. Sounds like it really is down to the circles that you run in.

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 2:10:16 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Holy crap! Nearly a decade without seeing a single PC in editorial. Sounds like it really is down to the circles that you run in. "

When I was cutting on Avid, the Mac/PC mix seemed to be about 50/50. As FCP grew and as OS X matured, almost all of the PC shops I knew went Mac.

A couple years ago, when I switched back to PCs for daily use, most folks in my circle (especially the ones I had helped transition to Apple in the first place) thought I was crazy. Today, they are more curious and some even interested -- especially when I show up with an HP Z-series workstation and a Surface -- but a lot of them still think of Windows XP and are very hesitant to switch platforms again, even for good software.

I think that Lightworks missed an important window by not having a Mac version in beta two or three years ago during the Great NLE Shakedown.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:25:25 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A couple years ago, when I switched back to PCs for daily use, most folks in my circle (especially the ones I had helped transition to Apple in the first place) thought I was crazy. Today, they are more curious and some even interested -- especially when I show up with an HP Z-series workstation and a Surface -- but a lot of them still think of Windows XP and are very hesitant to switch platforms again, even for good software."

Very interesting. In my small corner of the world (corporate stuff), the freelancers, agency types and staff "video producers" are still pretty evenly split between Mac and PC. But that's just editors and mid-level mograph artists. Most of the high-end VFX folks that I've been lucky enough to interface with, don't seem to care about platform at all. They are usually more concerned with performance and stability, and they don't seem to care much about the OS or the badge on the chassis. :-)

[Walter Soyka] "I think that Lightworks missed an important window by not having a Mac version in beta two or three years ago during the Great NLE Shakedown."

Totally agree, I hope it's not too late though. As much as I like the idea of Resolve 11 providing more competition in the NLE space, I think the landscape is made just that much better by having another serious player on the field.

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:53:03 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Very interesting. In my small corner of the world (corporate stuff), the freelancers, agency types and staff "video producers" are still pretty evenly split between Mac and PC. But that's just editors and mid-level mograph artists."

Isn't your corner of the world also Microsoft's backyard? I know better than to send media via FedEx if I'm working for UPS...


[Shawn Miller] "Most of the high-end VFX folks that I've been lucky enough to interface with, don't seem to care about platform at all. They are usually more concerned with performance and stability, and they don't seem to care much about the OS or the badge on the chassis. :-)"

Indeed. While most on this forum tend to choose software for their platform (i.e., if it doesn't run on Mac it isn't worth investigating), others like you cite choose their platform for their software.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:22:51 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Shawn Miller] "Very interesting. In my small corner of the world (corporate stuff), the freelancers, agency types and staff "video producers" are still pretty evenly split between Mac and PC. But that's just editors and mid-level mograph artists."

Isn't your corner of the world also Microsoft's backyard? I know better than to send media via FedEx if I'm working for UPS..."


Yup, but I work with folks from all over the world. I'm as likely to get media from, or have to send media to an agency in the UK as I am Redmond. Interestingly, MS Studios isn't really Windows centric (not for DCC software anyway). I think their edit bays were all Mac at some point, running both Avid and FCP. I'm not sure what they're doing these days though, I haven't worked with them in a while. Let me know if you ever get out to Seattle, I could probably wrangle a tour out of them (Microsoft Studios). ;-)

[Walter Soyka] "[Shawn Miller] "Most of the high-end VFX folks that I've been lucky enough to interface with, don't seem to care about platform at all. They are usually more concerned with performance and stability, and they don't seem to care much about the OS or the badge on the chassis. :-)"

Indeed. While most on this forum tend to choose software for their platform (i.e., if it doesn't run on Mac it isn't worth investigating), others like you cite choose their platform for their software."


I don't think anything makes you platform agnostic faster than the relentless drive to shave minutes per-frame when rendering. I would happily switch back to an Amiga if it meant that I could calculate GI passes 10% faster. :-)

Shawn



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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:30:34 pm
Last Edited By Walter Soyka on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:32:30 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Let me know if you ever get out to Seattle, I could probably wrangle a tour out of them (Microsoft Studios). ;-)"

There's actually a chance I might be out in Seattle next week -- I should know for sure by tomorrow. Maybe we can connect offline? I'm not sure how to reach you, but if you'd like, you can reach me at walter at keenlive dot com.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:39:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Shawn Miller] "Let me know if you ever get out to Seattle, I could probably wrangle a tour out of them (Microsoft Studios). ;-)"

There's actually a chance I might be out in Seattle next week -- I should know for sure by tomorrow. Maybe we can connect offline? I'm not sure how to reach you, but if you'd like, you can reach me at walter at keenlive dot com."


As it happens, I will actually be on the Microsoft Campus next week.

I will PM you with my contact info.

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 7:11:50 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Indeed. While most on this forum tend to choose software for their platform (i.e., if it doesn't run on Mac it isn't worth investigating), others like you cite choose their platform for their software."

In a forum born from Mac-only software I'm not surprised most posters are looking for Mac-centric solutions. ;)

As Shawn (I think) mentioned in a previous post with the combination of the X bomb and l-o-n-g wait for a new Mac Pro I think many Mac users started seriously looking at non-Mac solutions for the first time in a long time. Switching both NLEs and platforms at the same time can be daunting.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:57:04 pm

[Shawn Miller] "As much as I like the idea of Resolve 11 providing more competition in the NLE space, I think the landscape is made just that much better by having another serious player on the field. "

Oh, and I've mentioned this before, but I'm not excited about a free (read: subsidized) NLE at all. That's not competition, it's scorched earth, and I think big companies who make their money elsewhere giving away a product in an adjacent market because they can is not good for the industry in the long term.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:37:09 pm

[Walter Soyka] "[Shawn Miller] "As much as I like the idea of Resolve 11 providing more competition in the NLE space, I think the landscape is made just that much better by having another serious player on the field. "

Oh, and I've mentioned this before, but I'm not excited about a free (read: subsidized) NLE at all. That's not competition, it's scorched earth, and I think big companies who make their money elsewhere giving away a product in an adjacent market because they can is not good for the industry in the long term."


I don't disagree at all! I'm excited about having a cool new finishing application on the market, but you're right. Giving away an application which should cost ~2k just KILLS the incentive for smaller developers, or pure software companies to develop competing products... not good, not good at all.

Shawn



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 4:55:07 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Holy crap! Nearly a decade without seeing a single PC in editorial. Sounds like it really is down to the circles that you run in. "

Starting from the time I was in college (late '90's) I can probably count the times I've personally seen PCs used for editing on one hand and that includes time in the Midwest and time on the West Coast. News stations and local PBS affiliates to promo/trailer houses to network TV shows to feature length docs. 99% Mac.

I know people cut on PCs too but apparently fate doesn't want me to see any of them. lol


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 12, 2014 at 5:38:53 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "
Starting from the time I was in college (late '90's) I can probably count the times I've personally seen PCs used for editing on one hand and that includes time in the Midwest and time on the West Coast. News stations and local PBS affiliates to promo/trailer houses to network TV shows to feature length docs. 99% Mac.

I know people cut on PCs too but apparently fate doesn't want me to see any of them. lol"


Wow, that is funny! :-) Now that makes me wonder where all the Avid seats on Windows are. :-) Come to think of it, one of the post houses I used to work at in the early 2000's did switch from Avid on Windows to FCP... last I heard, they were switching back to Avid though, I don't know if they stayed on the Mac platform.

Shawn



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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 14, 2014 at 6:54:04 am

@Andrew & Shawn:

Those PC-based Avids are at facilities in LA that have multiple seats of editors and use asset management systems like Interplay. CBS On-Air Promo. Victory Studios (part of Telepictures/Warner Bros.). NBC (I'm pretty sure). Lifetime/A&E Networks, now in NY. I'm sure there are lots more.

When you look at buying an Avid/ISIS/Interplay system, Avid really wants you to do a PC system. All the edit bays, the ingest suites, especially the newsroom producer stations. It all works very well together, and I say that as a long-time Mac fan.

ABC Promo was a notable exception when they went FCP a number of years ago. Not sure what server they used, but they ran away from Avid pretty hard. Now, the recent shootout was FCPX vs Premiere. Sadly, they apparently are going with Premiere. Still on Mac, though, unless someone had a change of heart.

Interestingly, I know of several smaller facilities who bought into the PC-Avid-Unity for a smaller system who have ditched PCs and vowed never again! Only Macs from here on out. Go figure!


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Shawn Miller
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 14, 2014 at 4:24:21 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "@Andrew & Shawn:

Those PC-based Avids are at facilities in LA that have multiple seats of editors and use asset management systems like Interplay. CBS On-Air Promo. Victory Studios (part of Telepictures/Warner Bros.). NBC (I'm pretty sure). Lifetime/A&E Networks, now in NY. I'm sure there are lots more.

When you look at buying an Avid/ISIS/Interplay system, Avid really wants you to do a PC system. All the edit bays, the ingest suites, especially the newsroom producer stations. It all works very well together, and I say that as a long-time Mac fan.

ABC Promo was a notable exception when they went FCP a number of years ago. Not sure what server they used, but they ran away from Avid pretty hard. Now, the recent shootout was FCPX vs Premiere. Sadly, they apparently are going with Premiere. Still on Mac, though, unless someone had a change of heart.

Interestingly, I know of several smaller facilities who bought into the PC-Avid-Unity for a smaller system who have ditched PCs and vowed never again! Only Macs from here on out. Go figure!"


Thanks for clearing that up Jeff! Do you know why Avid prefers that you build their systems around PCs? Also, is there a vendor in particular that they want you to use?

Shawn



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Jeff Markgraf
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 14, 2014 at 6:45:16 pm

Well, I doubt Avid has an official policy preferring PCs. But I don't think I've ever seen a really large-scale Mac-based setup. Maybe it's because Unity - and now ISIS - have always been strictly PC. Surely it's easier to integrate everything staying in the PC world. (That was certainly true back in the day, when networking was still a real black art.)

I remember TMZ forging new territory in trying to integrate MacPros running FCP with a PC-based Dalet newsroom and asset management system. Plus an Omneon server for playout to air. Getting Mac networks to reliably interface with PC networks was a long-running nightmare. (I think the issues were primarily with the PCs just not liking Macs, but I could be wrong.) They finally got it all working, but it took months of long on-site days from the vendors. Notably, when Extra finally made the leap from obsolete, stand-alone G4 Avids to a full-blown network setup, they went totally PC. Same tech people in charge, totally different outcome.

The setups I've seen are all HP, whatever their Z-series boxes are. It almost doesn't matter what the Avids run on, since the heavy lifting is done through the ISIS. The network is slinging XDCAM 35 or rendered DNX145 through fiber. Not a lot for the local box to do, although since renders are local, fast is still better.

Probably more than you wanted to know ;-)


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 14, 2014 at 8:28:10 pm

[Jeff Markgraf] "Probably more than you wanted to know ;-)"

No, Jeff I think it's very interesting. I've done a fair amount of workflow development in the past so I'm always interested to see what solutions other people come up with.

It's interesting you mention large roll outs as even places I've been that have 20 or 30 Avid's all hooked into ISIS (or Unity back in the day) have been all Macs. These have mainly been TV shows though that just rent for the duration of the project (as opposed to in-house departments that would probably buy their gear) so maybe that factors into it?


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Jok Daniel
Re: Lightworks Mac Public Beta
on Jun 15, 2014 at 12:57:37 am

Here's a somewhat long-winded but quite interesting presentation of Lightworks' new content browser:





Very cleverly built on top of Lightworks' already strong database foundation, and it looks like it would support some really interesting metadata driven workflows. I am happy to see development in this direction, since this is an area where EditShare excels and where Lightworks could give even X a run for its money.

Skip ahead to 17:40 to see a really cool matchframe feature!


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