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This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...

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Charlie Austin
This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 9, 2014 at 3:31:06 pm

Sony Xperia spots cut in X...

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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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David Mathis
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 9, 2014 at 3:58:27 pm

Thanks for posting! Very interesting read and it looks like X is finally getting some of the credit it deserves. Now if they can only bring "Send To Motion", things would be great. Until then, just going to wait for the next update. Perhaps that feature will be in 10.2?

My Final Cut Studio:

Core Software
Final Cut Pro X
Motion 5
Resolve
Pixelmator

Plug-ins
Red Giant Universe

Utilities
7 to X
Clip Exporter
Ultrascope

Cameras
Black Magic Cinema Camera
Canon (consumer model)


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Bill Davis
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 9, 2014 at 6:07:58 pm

The fact that it's successfully completing work of this caliber - with this much MONEY on the line - is all the "street cred" that the software needs.

Has anyone else noticed that the "de facto" way to write about X is still to make SURE you avoid the "fanboy" label by making certain to point out a handful of things that aren't perfect about how it works so as to seem "balanced."

Note to self. Stop weaseling when I write and speak about X. What's great about it IS, in fact, great. It's flaws are no more or less than those of any other modern software product.

LOVED the line about how the big wigs were once again stuck in the old mindset right until they watch X in operation in the hands of a well qualified user - then suddenly it's all smiles and champagne.

Enjoyed the work displayed. And the notes on how easy it appears being able to follow a workflow from set to office to finished product.

Nice find, Charlie.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Oliver Peters
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 9, 2014 at 11:48:11 pm

"Has anyone else noticed that the "de facto" way to write about X is still to make SURE you avoid the "fanboy" label by making certain to point out a handful of things that aren't perfect about how it works so as to seem "balanced.""

Don't you think people here actually prefer the honest approach? Warts and all?

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Darren Roark
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 9, 2014 at 11:58:29 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Don't you think people here actually prefer the honest approach? Warts and all?"

Bill did have a point about that. I don't talk about it in the same way other editor friends who enthusiastically and unconditionally love Avid.

I do have to qualify it with an "It's not perfect, but I really like it the best." If I don't the worry is that person will think I'm crazy.


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Charlie Austin
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 12:01:51 am

[Oliver Peters] "Don't you think people here actually prefer the honest approach? Warts and all?"

Exactly. I'm as big a fan of X as anyone, but it's far from perfect. It's getting there though. lol. As Darren points out, it's sometimes hard for aficionados of any NLE to admit that anything about their choice sucks. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Oliver Peters
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 12:20:15 am

Truthfully, I get producers turning up their noses when I mention Premiere Pro, too. In fact, I've been on a project for the past week and a half that I would have done using PPro CS6 on the client's machine, but he gave me dirty looks when I mentioned Premiere. So I've been using FCP7. FCP X was there but only an expired trial.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Charlie Austin
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 12:22:44 am

[Oliver Peters] "Truthfully, I get producers turning up their noses when I mention Premiere Pro, too. In fact, I've been on a project for the past week and a half that I would have done using PPro CS6 on the client's machine, but he gave me dirty looks when I mentioned Premiere. So I've been using FCP7. FCP X was there but only an expired trial."

People can be very foolish that way. :-) Good old FCP 7 just keeps grinding away. Warts and all... :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Mitch Ives
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:16:51 pm

[Charlie Austin] "Exactly. I'm as big a fan of X as anyone, but it's far from perfect. It's getting there though. lol. As Darren points out, it's sometimes hard for aficionados of any NLE to admit that anything about their choice sucks. :-)"

Pretty much my position. I like X a lot, but I also have a "no denying when the King has no clothes" policy. I think if it has an area that needs work, we SHOULD be talking about it... not pretending to ignore just so we can curry favor from someone or some company.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Bill Davis
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 1:58:40 am

[Oliver Peters] "Don't you think people here actually prefer the honest approach? Warts and all?"

Sure Oliver, but one man's wart is anothers' beauty mark!

I think there's a real tendency for X supporters to pre-apologize. To make sure EVERYONE knows that just because we enjoy working with it - we must NOT leave the impression that we are unmindful of it's potential shortcomings - even if IN FACT it might be a flawless tool for the workflow that a particular editor needs to accomplish.

So here's a question for the peanut gallery.

Fill in the blank. "I think (editing program) is suitable for about XX% of the projects that the market can throw at it.

I'll start.

I think X is suitable for about 80% of the editing tasks out there - primarily because it's too complex for some simple uses where iMovie or Windows Movie Maker would be a more suitable option - and also a modest (and dwindling) slice at the top end where it lacks specific workflow integrations that would make it a proper choice.

Now if I'm even in the ballpark - then what's there to apologize about? If MOST editors can employ it to do the work they need (even if it's NO more "perfect" than it's competitors for any specific job - then why is is important to stress what it does NOT do in every single post?

Remember, I'm NOT saying it's flaws should not be discussed. Of COURSE they should. What I'm saying is that there's absolutely NO reason to apologize for software that meets the needs of that large a swath of the overall market.

Unless I'm wrong.

Anyone want to play?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:19:33 am

I think FCP X, PPro, FCP 7 and Avid MC are suitable for 80% of the editing tasks out there (some people really love Vegas, and Lightworks has pedigree but I don't know enough about either to really comment). Smoke would probably be fine too though pricey and overkill from an effects perspective. DaVinci 11 might be there (or maybe we'll have to wait for 12).

To me, with so many choices that are 'good enough' for 80% of the work out there, knowing what the software can't do becomes more important than what it can do.

[Bill Davis] "Remember, I'm NOT saying it's flaws should not be discussed. Of COURSE they should. What I'm saying is that there's absolutely NO reason to apologize for software that meets the needs of that large a swath of the overall market."

I didn't read anything in the OP's link that made me think that he's apologizing for using the software (all he listed were a few non-show stopping quibbles at the end).

If I'm reading someone's account of actually using the software (not a corporate puff piece or a specific example of how to do a certain workflow) then I expect the account to include what worked, what could have worked better and what didn't work because nothing ever goes perfectly.

FCP being used on Cold Mountain is seen as a watershed moment for the program but FCP barely made it across the finish line. If you read Murch's account of the experience (the book "Behind the Scene") it was one struggle after another and only a great team effort by Murch's team and Digital Film Tree allowed them to succeed. Depending on your perspective you could read that book and go "See, that's why you shouldn't use FCP on a major motion picture." or "See, FCP can be used on a major motion picture!"

As to why people might be talking about X's short comings as well as it's strengths... If I had to venture a guess I'd say it's a reaction to the fanboys that poisoned the well by proclaiming X to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and that if you weren't using X it meant you were a dinosaur that feared change and were destined to failure. Apparently someone realized that an NLE flamewar wasn't the most productive way to go about things so they started presenting X as a tool that has some upsides and some downsides as opposed to a little bundle of awesome created by the Almighty Apple and delivered to the unwashed masses in hopes of showing them the error of their ways.


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Walter Soyka
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:19:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "To me, with so many choices that are 'good enough' for 80% of the work out there, knowing what the software can't do becomes more important than what it can do. "

So well said.

It's like buying a warranty or insurance: what's covered is often less important than what's excluded.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:57:12 pm

Fine, then I'm ready to participate in the next phase. Let's spend the next couple of years here discussing precisely what's "or NOT" about Premier, AVID et al. to level the playing field?

"All negative all the time" ... for education!"

Odd branding isn't it?

Maybe Tim can set up a forum called "Your NLE - an editing glass eternally half empty!"

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Walter Soyka
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:37:26 pm

[Bill Davis] "Fine, then I'm ready to participate in the next phase. Let's spend the next couple of years here discussing precisely what's "or NOT" about Premier, AVID et al. to level the playing field?"

Every serious conversation about any NLE for any project should include this. You don't want to discover that Premiere Pro has a unique audio system or that Media Composer can't output 4K once you're halfway through your project.


[Bill Davis] ""All negative all the time" ... for education! Odd branding isn't it? Maybe Tim can set up a forum called "Your NLE - an editing glass eternally half empty!""

I thought we were assuming in this conversation that the glass was pretty much always 80% full. That puts some important differences in the empty 20%.

I have learned from a dear friend and colleague that framing things in terms of both what they are and what they are not is enormously helpful for building understanding.

For example, when I quote a project, I frame the scope of work in terms of what I will do and what I will not do. By bounding both sides, rather than leaving one side unbounded, we accurately set expectations and help avoid future misunderstandings. Otherwise, the other part is free to assume the implied boundary -- and you know what happens when you assume!

(Also, in the case of quoting a project, it also allows opportunities for up-selling on excluded scope: a better outcome for the client, and a better outcome for my wallet.)

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 4:26:22 am

Walter,

That's the issue. All but a few of us in this very forum spent the first year loudly proclaiming that X was maybe 10% useful and we advocates were stupid, unprofessional fanboys to think otherwise. With appreciation that you and a few others were always much less partisan!

At some point in year 2- I guess we quietly passed the 50% "X is tolerable" threshold.

And now I get general agreement on 80%. Amazing.

With that radical a bending of the perception curve, it appears I have all the justification I need for my original contention that X needs no further apologies from anyone.

I was called Pollyanna here more than once . But as with the Disney character, the result hasn't been constant disappointment - but rather constant enjoyment that my positive outlook could grow and be sustained over time.

80% as a consensus is sweet indeed.

That plus feeling X was more than worth my time turns out to be precisely what's made my life and work so much easier today.

Seriously, nobody but a dyed in the wool curmudgeon looks at any glass that's 80% full - and thinks of it as an inadequate drink.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:00:54 am

[Bill Davis] "And now I get general agreement on 80%. Amazing."

Not to dampen a rare Kumbaya moment in here but when I'm thinking about 80% of the editing market I'm thinking about everything from professional YouTubers to corporate videos to cable TV shows to blockbuster movies in terms of volume. There's a whole lot more of the former than of the latter so I think any NLE marketed as a professional tool should be able to work in the vast majority of the market place.

I feel like FCP X has almost always been a viable NLE outside out the broadcast/film sector and that makes sense because Apple consciously made the decision to target the sector with the biggest growth potential which is people that aren't full time editors. I think X has been suitable for maybe 50% of the market since pretty much launch and now it's up to 80%. I think X got banged the hardest from the broadcast and film sector but that sector is pretty small in the grand scheme of video content creation even though it's high profile and influential.


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Walter Soyka
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:24:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "And now I get general agreement on 80%. Amazing. With that radical a bending of the perception curve, it appears I have all the justification I need for my original contention that X needs no further apologies from anyone."

FCP X has matured a lot since its 10.0 release earned it that poor perception. The same thing also happened with AVID, FCP Legend, and Premiere Pro. The critics were all right at the launches of these products, but at some point, they started being wrong if they didn't change their tune.

Who's apologizing for FCP X? I re-read the original article, and I still don't see it as pandering for balance -- just a straightforward discussion of what was good and what could have been better about using FCP X for a project. (And after countless apologies of my own to the FCP X community, I'll take a tiny portion of the credit for PIOPs that got a shout-out in the article, for no good reason other than I talked them into the ground a year or two ago.)

As for bending the perception curve, I'll consider it bent when "commercial edited with FCP X" is no longer considered newsworthy.

(That's not a criticism of X, but rather of the continued perception thereof, and perhaps of a touch of persecutory delusion among the FCP X using/promoting community.)

One thing that stood out to me in this was the emphasis on interchange and collaboration. FCP X offlined the spot. I wonder what the rest of the workflow was like?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 4:46:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "As for bending the perception curve, I'll consider it bent when "commercial edited with FCP X" is no longer considered newsworthy. "

I had a similar litmus test for FCP Legend, we'll know FCP has 'made it' when it's no longer noteworthy to mention when it's been used on a TV show or narrative feature film. Unfortunately it never made it to that level before the reboot.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:40:46 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "As to why people might be talking about X's short comings as well as it's strengths... If I had to venture a guess I'd say it's a reaction to the fanboys that poisoned the well by proclaiming X to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and that if you weren't using X it meant you were a dinosaur that feared change and were destined to failure."

I have no idea where I fit in to these buckets, but being someone who was interested, and more or less positive albeit realistic about where FCPX was headed from about day three, there is another perspective on this.

There was at least one podcast, uncountable Tweets, a few videos, and plenty of industry press and concern about the exact reasons why FCPX shouldn't even be considered in the days and weeks after the NAB announce as well as the official release, and if you were one of the unlucky who did like it or use it, you were suddenly an unprofessional, or were somehow doing lower quality work, or your work wasn't as complicated. In order for people to prove that the work may have been complicated, or high quality, or just plain worth while to watch, there had to be some over compensation.


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Mitch Ives
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:36:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "There was at least one podcast, uncountable Tweets, a few videos, and plenty of industry press and concern about the exact reasons why FCPX shouldn't even be considered in the days and weeks after the NAB announce as well as the official release, and if you were one of the unlucky who did like it or use it, you were suddenly an unprofessional, or were somehow doing lower quality work, or your work wasn't as complicated. In order for people to prove that the work may have been complicated, or high quality, or just plain worth while to watch, there had to be some over compensation."

And if you saw any problems or had the bad form to mention them, then you "Just didn't get it". You were stupid and too unenlightened to see the "new reality". Really?

Having used NLEs longer than a lot of the people who made a point of bashing me for mentioning some serious omissions, it was a bit insulting.

Obviously, if I thought X was crap, I wouldn't have purchased it immediately. Moreover, as someone who was teaching FCP even before Apple had any established curriculum... and perhaps more interesting was asked by both Apple and Peachpit to submit all the incorrect info that I had noted in their books (not just with FCP), it was even more disappointing.

I think your level of satisfaction is directly related to your experience level with NLEs and the type of work you do. I have projects where FCP X is perfect and I have no issues. I have other projects where I'm swearing at it like a Gunny Sergeant. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it's more tedious at certain things than other options. Does this make X a bad choice... of course not.

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:50:50 am

[Mitch Ives] "And if you saw any problems or had the bad form to mention them, then you "Just didn't get it". You were stupid and too unenlightened to see the "new reality". Really?"


[Mitch Ives] "I think your level of satisfaction is directly related to your experience level with NLEs and the type of work you do. I have projects where FCP X is perfect and I have no issues. I have other projects where I'm swearing at it like a Gunny Sergeant. Not because I don't know how to use it, but because it's more tedious at certain things than other options. Does this make X a bad choice... of course not."


Just to be clear, are you talking to me directly, or are you talking to the forum?


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Mitch Ives
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 2:22:04 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Just to be clear, are you talking to me directly, or are you talking to the forum?"

Not directed at you. You did make the point on the one side of the coin, so I thought I'd cover the counter-point. I've haven't felt any animosity from you, in fact I've enjoyed our exchanges...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Mitch Ives
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:24:56 pm

Well said Andrew. Better than well said, actually. I like the way you think... balanced and yet truthful...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Mitch Ives
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:20:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "Remember, I'm NOT saying it's flaws should not be discussed. Of COURSE they should. What I'm saying is that there's absolutely NO reason to apologize for software that meets the needs of that large a swath of the overall market."

I can agree with that.

As for percentages, if you're throwing in iMovie and MovieMaker, then I think the FCP X number is lower than 80%. If you're referring to what all the people on this forum produce, then 80% is probably a fair number...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Michael Gissing
Re: This one probably won't make the "In Action" page, but an interesting read...
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:23:57 am

This thread seems like another example of confusing positive criticisms with negativity whilst being negative about peoples lack of positive praise. I do love the banter that this forum throws up and the fact that between the zealots and haters lies a strange informative balance.

I have been paying little attention to this forum lately but I will enjoy the Resolve 11 or not debate.


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