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Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?

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John Chay
Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:20:23 pm

http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=322


Best article I've read coming from a professional user of FCP and the impact on business.


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Paul Escamilla
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:40:01 pm

I will never trust them again. After 10-11 years as one of the world's biggest Apple and FCP fanboys, I am planning not only a switch to Avid or Premiere, but possibly a switch to PCs. My work and livelihood is far too serious to be depending on a company that would do what Apple did last week. F them. Seriously. I hate to be harsh, but their behavior is inexcusable and indefensible. And TOTALLY unprofessional.


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Tim Vaughan
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:03:22 pm

Truth be told (and after spending quite a few tens of thousands on equipment over the years), the only thing that was really holding us back from PC was FCP. All of the other programs we utilize operate on both (C4d, AE/Adobe Production Suite, etc), but we were spending some big money on Mac Pro's, XServes (now discontinued), XSAN and Raids primarily for the FCP editing and media.
So now with the demise of FCP, we've realized we can purchase a couple of PC's for the price of a Mac Pro and easily farm out renders. With Avid and Premiere both running on either platform, we've decided to start just moving to the PC platform. The costs of upgrades to a different editing platform along with compatible plugins will pay for themselves within a year or two as the allocated budgets toward computing machines will be far less.
I've been impressed (and I didn't think it possible) with Windows 7 overall; and I guess overall I'm glad now that Apple did what they did. We'll continue to use what we have, but there isn't any reason to purchase any new "toys" at Apple now. These last few years have seen Apple innovate, while others have taken Apples concepts to a whole new level, (Android, Google, Amazon, etc) while Apple moseys forward to keep up. It's like they come up with a great idea, and then move on. Case and point; FCP Studio.

But honestly, one should never trust a company. They are in the market for profits and generally will do whatever it takes to increase its profits. Apple's profits are in its smaller toys. Go in to any Apple store and you'll see there are 30 casual shoppers to 1 business pro. I kinda had a feeling when the "business department" was cut to one guy to handle an entire quarter of the U.S.. Live and let live, it's time to move on. The artists that once made the product are no longer welcome. Unless you do it their way. (Wasn't that what they were originally fighting against in 1984? Fight the system, buy a Mac???)

Tim
Now featuring AVID Media Composer
Apple XRAID, XServe, MacPro, Macbook Pro, XSAN, FCP Studio 7 (Sorry, no iMovie Pro)
Apple Monitors, Flanders Scientific Broadcast, Panasonic AG-AF100
Adobe Production Premium, Maxon Cinema 4d
Beer fridge fully loaded.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:43:37 pm

It seems Autodesk still does fine with Smoke and Flame despite, Cinestream, Edit*, Combustion, Cleaner, all popular and dead ended.

Of course that means the product has to fall into the "must have" category for some and that is not the case with FCPX, Motion, Compressor.



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Alan Okey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:25:39 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It seems Autodesk still does fine with Smoke and Flame despite, Cinestream, Edit*, Combustion, Cleaner, all popular and dead ended."

Autodesk is a huge conglomerate, every bit the "software black hole" that Marco Solorio has described Apple as being. It's an interesting comparison, however, because Autodesk Media & Entertainment has gone in the exact opposite direction of Apple. They've killed off all of their low-cost low-end products and focused on high end solutions.

There has been much ink devoted to speculation about the end of big iron systems, but despite everyone predicting the end of the dinosaurs, Flame and Smoke are still going strong after more than a decade. They have dropped in price, but are still actively being developed and improved.


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Ben Starkey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:04:08 pm

Agreed. Great writeup. My disappointment is obviously with the company direction and not as much with the FCP X app itself. This app just represents more clearly than anything before it the direction Apple is headed.

Ben Starkey
Color Correction & Grading
Online Finishing
Editor
http://www.benstarkey.com


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:31:03 pm

[John Chay] "http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/?p=322

Best article I've read coming from a professional user of FCP and the impact on business."


The idea that people make purchases on the basis of these sorts of abstract issues is, frankly, not well supported in general. My prediction is that customers who decide FCP X is, on the technical merits, the best choice for them (say) a year from now will very rarely go on to say "But we're not going to buy it because Apple really didn't communicate well about the introduction last year".

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:47:42 pm

[Chris Kenny] ""But we're not going to buy it because Apple really didn't communicate well about the introduction last year"."

Chris normally I agree with you but having worked at facilities of varying sizes for 20 years as an editor and being the senior engineer at another that did mostly broadcast work, there's a lot of inertia.

Most are adverse to moving to new tools. They may eventually but movement is slow. The inertia is always rational but often rationalized. I could give you a long list of boring personal stories for every facility I worked at but in every case there was a reluctance to move unless and until the conditions became overwhelmingly compelling to take a perceived (even if imagined) risk. Avid, for example, had a prolonged period of issues that pushed people to FCP. The EOL of Discreet Edit* forced others to move.

Individuals are a bit more mobile and open though assuming costs are low and features are compelling.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:15:09 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Most are adverse to moving to new tools. They may eventually but movement is slow. "

This works in favor of FCP X, though. A lot of facilities weren't going to upgrade to a new version of FCP for 12 or 18 months even if it had just been an incremental, backwards compatible update. This gives Apple a little time to continue adding pro features to FCP X, to try to get facilities to choose that, rather than Premiere Pro or Avid, when they are ready to update. None of this is nearly as time sensitive as the "It's been five days and Apple hasn't responded yet! They're running out of time!" crowd is implying.

It's true that by making a transition to FCP X as big a step as a transition to an alternative editing platform, Apple has opened the door for customers to switch. But Apple must have realized this. I think they're just not very worried about opening the door, because in the long run they're confident in the quality of the product that they'll deliver and don't feel like they need to rely on platform inertia to keep customers.

Indeed, as I've noted elsewhere, a huge part of the reason FCP is so successful it pro markets today is because its approachability made it the most common choice for students and new editors, who then moved out into the industry. FCP X, in terms of user interface and particularly price, is even more approachable. Once the initial launch hiccups have passed, I see no particular reason to believe this long-term trend won't resume and even accelerate.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:30:11 pm

[Chris Kenny] "A lot of facilities weren't going to upgrade to a new version of FCP for 12 or 18 months even if it had just been an incremental, backwards compatible update. This gives Apple a little time to continue adding pro features to FCP X, to try to get facilities to choose that, rather than Premiere Pro or Avid,"

Your logic is flawed. Facilities had no intentions of transitioning towards Avid or Premiere until they released Final Cut X. Apple could have bought themselves some time by doing nothing at all or releasing FCPx as a Beta version first. But to scrap FCS3 all together is ludicrous and a clear signal that the Pro Editing App from Apple is dead.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:49:25 pm

[John Chay] "Your logic is flawed. Facilities had no intentions of transitioning towards Avid or Premiere until they released Final Cut X. Apple could have bought themselves some time by doing nothing at all or releasing FCPx as a Beta version first. But to scrap FCS3 all together is ludicrous and a clear signal that the Pro Editing App from Apple is dead.
"


The logic you're describing is flawed. The mere release of FCP X creates no additional material reason to transition to another editing platform. Uncertainly surrounding Apple's future intentions seems to be the primary driver behind the folks saying they're going to switch, but that uncertainty will be gone in 12-18 months (probably much less), so if you weren't going to upgrade until then there's no reason why some short-term uncertainty before then should cause to to move your upgrade date ahead and switch editing platforms in the process.

That's just a fundamentally irrational knee-jerk response, essentially an attempt to remove the phycological unpleasantness of uncertainty by making a decision immediately, which it makes no sense to do when there's no pressing need and it will be possible to make a more informed choice later.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:55:36 pm

You can't run a business on uncertainty. At my facility we were ready to purchase 3 brand new mac based editing suites running FCP. After the release of FCPx we have decided to go another direction.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:47:42 pm

[John Chay] "You can't run a business on uncertainty. At my facility we were ready to purchase 3 brand new mac based editing suites running FCP. After the release of FCPx we have decided to go another direction."

You can't run a business on uncertainly, but if there's no pressing need to make a decision immediately, you can wait for the uncertainty to recede before doing so.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:57:40 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The logic you're describing is flawed. The mere release of FCP X creates no additional material reason to transition to another editing platform. Uncertainly surrounding Apple's future intentions seems to be the primary driver behind the folks saying they're going to switch..."


Seriously, Chris, did you listen to John Chay's remarks before you replied?

It wasn't the release of FCPX that caused the pros to lose hope and start looking elsewhere.

It was the killing of FCP7 and the removal of FCS3 from the Apple Store that fomented all this backlash.

Apple could have released FCPX and continued to sell FCP7 and FCS3 and I doubt we'd be hearing more more than the typical "When you going to update FCS?" rants. But by killing everything else, they are giving pros little choice in the matter.

Refusing to issue any more FCP7 or FCS3 licenses makes it clear that Apple does not want any more of THIS KIND of business. What part of that are you unable to understand?

Therein lays the rub...

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC
Publisher, Creative COW Magazine

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

"Incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm."
- Woody Allen


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:15:28 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Seriously, Chris, did you listen to John Chay's remarks before you replied?

It wasn't the release of FCPX that caused the pros to lose hope and start looking elsewhere.

It was the killing of FCP7 and the removal of FCS3 from the Apple Store that fomented all this backlash."


That's inconsistant with a great deal of what has been posted, and doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, yes, Apple has made is harder to get an additional copy of FCS3, but it's still easier to obtain a copy of FCS3 than to switch to another editing platform. Many of the people saying they're switching are citing FCP X's initial feature set and what they believe it implies about Apple's priorities and future actions, not Apple's discontinuation of FCS3.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:38:55 pm

[Chris Kenny] " I mean, yes, Apple has made is harder to get an additional copy of FCS3, but it's still easier to obtain a copy of FCS3 than to switch to another editing platform."


Chris: Apple is NOT issuing new licenses for either FCP7 or for FCS3. They are giving RMAs to dealers and will not activate new licenses for anyone that were not already activated.

What part of that do you not understand?

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC
Publisher, Creative COW Magazine

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

"Incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm."
- Woody Allen


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:42:33 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Chris: Apple is NOT issuing new licenses for either FCP7 or for FCS3. They are giving RMAs to dealers and will not activate new licenses for anyone that were not already activated. What part of that do you not understand?"

The part where it makes it literally impossible for anyone to obtain a copy of FCS3 ever again. First sale doctrine means there are a couple of million users who have a copy they have an absolute right to resell to anyone.

I agree Apple should have left FCS3 on sale. But given that there are all of those copies kicking around, I just don't see how this is going to have the sort of apocalyptic effects people are claiming it will.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 11:07:25 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The part where it makes it literally impossible for anyone to obtain a copy of FCS3 ever again. First sale doctrine means there are a couple of million users who have a copy they have an absolute right to resell to anyone."


Chris,

I said that the refusal by Apple to sell NEW licenses or to activate NEW licenses for users whose companies were committed to using FCP, is what largely caused most of the problem.

People want to know that they are buying legitimate software that they can build a company on, not pirated copies sold on eBay and show up with a cracked serial number.

You may disagree with that, but I have 16 years of building forums now and watching the way people react and what they react to, and I doubt that there would have been 1/10th the furor had Apple not pulled FCP and FCS from the shelves and refused to activate new licenses.

You can spin that any way that you want to, but them's the facts, Mac.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC
Publisher, Creative COW Magazine

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.

"Incompetence has never prevented me from plunging in with enthusiasm."
- Woody Allen


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stephen knifton
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 29, 2011 at 7:03:34 pm

Chris ... quit making excuses for this company. you've been brainwashed. we all wanted an (overdue) upgrade on fcs because we were all tired of running our machines at quarter-capacity, tired of going through tedious transcoding to deal with popular codecs etc.

apple LIED to the pros, saying FCP-X would 'blow us away' etc ... i want 64-bit speed and faster workflow, such as the competition has been providing for years.

i'm not inclined to hold my breath for another year, or 18 months while apple maybe decides to add multi-track capability, or one of a dozen other features that would merely bring this up the useability level of fcp7 that we all have now.

i'm gone to adobe. there is no choice in the matter for me as a professional fcp-x is for soccer mom /youtubers who need an app to do half the creative for them.

enjoy it, and enjoy breathlessly waiting for the upgrades. talk to you in two years.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 29, 2011 at 11:25:34 pm

[stephen knifton] "Chris ... quit making excuses for this company. you've been brainwashed"

Anyone who disagrees with you must be "brainwashed". Nice argument.

[stephen knifton] "i'm not inclined to hold my breath for another year, or 18 months while apple maybe decides to add multi-track capability, or one of a dozen other features that would merely bring this up the useability level of fcp7 that we all have now. "

Specifically what functions of traditional multitrack editing do you believe FCP X cannot provide?

[stephen knifton] "i'm gone to adobe. there is no choice in the matter for me as a professional fcp-x is for soccer mom /youtubers who need an app to do half the creative for them. "

Honestly, the more I use the app, the more frustrating this line gets. To me, it's trivially obvious that this is a professional app with some missing features, not a consumer app. It's littered with features of no value to consumers.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:51:36 pm

[Chris Kenny] "A lot of facilities weren't going to upgrade to a new version of FCP for 12 or 18 months even if it had just been an incremental, backwards compatible update."

No argument there for those facilities. Others were looking to add more seats. Others also have felt FCP7 features set was getting long in the tooth and are ready to move today. Keep in mind many were already in delayed purchase mode for months. Some going back to FCP6, as FCP7 wasn't all they had hoped for or needed.

We're hearing from some of those facilities on these forums. Unfortunately their only avenue is an exit strategy. Once these facilities go through the pain of moving, costs, some learning curve, equipment compatibility issues, they will not be quick to come back under all but unusually (but possible) circumstances.

Apple's mistake, IMHO, is mismanaging the transition. I think, over time, the transition could have been a major boon to Apple. This is a company that managed the move from OS9 to OSX and PPC to Intel. In each case they designed a reasonably long transition period and had features such as "classic" and "rosetta." Had they allowed for a year long transition, keeping EOLd FCS2009 available, they could have had another major shift in their favor as FCPX matured.

Instead, facilities who made purchases of FCS2009 are already at the end of that 18-24 month period and some started the clock earlier when FCS2009 was still missing features that competitors were bringing to market.

Much of the hysteria is unwarranted. It's people who aren't' familiar with the new ways of doing things in FCPX. In other cases FCPX is entirely inadequate and they are within their purchase period and they've been dead ended. They can't add FCS suites. They transcode ritual may be costing significant workflow efficiency dollars.

I'm not sure if you saw my other post but I think this is going to have a ripple effect that goes beyond facility purchase decisions.



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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:12:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple's mistake, IMHO, is mismanaging the transition. I think, over time, the transition could have been a major boon to Apple. This is a company that managed the move from OS9 to OSX and PPC to Intel. In each case they designed a reasonably long transition period and had features such as "classic" and "rosetta." Had they allowed for a year long transition, keeping EOLd FCS2009 available, they could have had another major shift in their favor as FCPX matured."

While I agree that Apple should have left FCS3 on sale for the time being, I just can't bring myself to take this notion that FCS3 will be literally unavailable to people who need it very seriously. There are millions of copies of this app kicking around in the world. The number of multi-seat facilities that might need to add seats while waiting for FCP X to mature is effectively trivial in comparison. Like, as in, I would be very surprised if we were talking about more than a couple of thousand seats that such facilities might need to add, globally, over the next couple of years. Maybe some will have trouble routing around internal corporate bullshit to be allowed to purchase used software, but that number is even smaller.

[Craig Seeman] "Instead, facilities who made purchases of FCS2009 are already at the end of that 18-24 month period and some started the clock earlier when FCS2009 was still missing features that competitors were bringing to market."

If there is a compelling reason to upgrade now, then sure, they should pick the best option now. And as of today, it's probably not FCP X. But we basically knew that was going to be true since we knew Apple was going to do a rewrite... and a rewrite has been inevitable to people who understood the technical limitations of the old architecture for... four or five years now, I guess.

Anyone choosing to make a major investment in Avid/Adobe now, however, should do so with the knowledge that they may be making a long-term choice different from the one they might choose to make six months or a year from now, once FCP X has had more time to mature. The benefits of switching now have to be weighed against the possibility that you might be using Media Composer for the next decade when FCP X would have been a better choice, because you made a decision during the specific window of time when FCP X wasn't yet a viable option.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:51:51 pm

[Chris Kenny] "There are millions of copies of this app kicking around in the world."

Apple apparently pulled it from the retail and VAR chain. I'm not sure if a facility will want to trust EBay and Craigslist for purchase decisions.

[Chris Kenny] "The number of multi-seat facilities that might need to add seats while waiting for FCP X to mature is effectively trivial"

Relative to 2 million copies sold but are all 2 million on FCP7? People who FCS2 as not a significant upgrade are not only looking for new seats. They're looking at supporting new workflows. While I think FCPX will support nearly all the features they need in the up and coming months that too is only speculation on my part. That's why Apple's silence is the problem There's a point where people no longer want to speculate. It becomes a risky business proposition when they way the cost of workflow compared to other products, even incorporating the cost of transitioning a facility.

I'm not sure whether that's trivial or not without any real numbers. All we have anecdotal info from some "noisy" folks. Sometimes even a 5% shift can have far ranging repercussions. Sometimes things begin to escalate or spiral. I think of where Avid went from as an example as FCP began to grow.

[Chris Kenny] "Anyone choosing to make a major investment in Avid/Adobe now, however, should do so with the knowledge that they may be making a long-term choice different from the one they might choose to make six months or a year from now, once FCP X has had more time to mature. The benefits of switching now have to be weighed against the possibility that you might be using Media Composer for the next decade when FCP X would have been a better choice, because you made a decision during the specific window of time when FCP X wasn't yet a viable option."

No doubt this is being weighed. The problem is that given what Avid and Adobe focus on as companies, short of bankruptcy or sale, they will attempt to be competitive. People don't have the same security with Apple even if it's only perception, not reality. Apple's dropping FCS2009 concurrently with the release of FCPX has exposed that insecurity. True or not, there's a perception that Apple can drop the Pro Post market with little harm and therefore might.

Keep in mind that even students and schools make their purchasing decisions based on the perception of the market direction. If they feel Avid or Adobe will lead to better marketable skills that will influence their decisions as well. Again it's perception but it's a significant factor.

Do you think the FCPX refunds are all coming from facilities for example? Of course we don't know the real numbers (and never will), facilities aren't going to sweat the $300 purchase. It may well be Apple's immediate target market responding to the perception that FCPX will not give them a future.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:15:26 pm

"But we basically knew that was going to be true since we knew Apple was going to do a rewrite... and a rewrite has been inevitable to people who understood the technical limitations of the old architecture"

Your basic argument is that Apple was re-writing the underlying architecture and everyone should have known that this would cause the program to drastically change.You keep repeating this over and over as if it were true. It isn't. It wasn't inevitable that an underlying structural change was going to lead to a total functional change.

The simple analogy is a car. You can make a wankel rotary engine, a steam engine, an all electric car - as long as the driver knows where the steering wheel is and where the brakes are he doesn't care. A total change in structure does not necessitate a change in the way a product functions.

About 8 years ago Discreet Edit*, the best NLE I ever used, underwent a total re-write. It took 2 years, and that delay helped contribute to it's demise. however the actual product was a seamless upgrade to the previous versions - 100% new code, huge improvements in functionality, totally backwards compatible.

Apple needed to do a re-write. It chose to change the functionality. One is not the necessary cause of the other. No matter how many times you link them together, it just ain't so. Not even when you repeat it.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:38:35 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Your basic argument is that Apple was re-writing the underlying architecture and everyone should have known that this would cause the program to drastically change.You keep repeating this over and over as if it were true. It isn't. It wasn't inevitable that an underlying structural change was going to lead to a total functional change."

It was inevitably going to lead to an app that wasn't going to be an immediate drop-in replacement. That's significant, when you consider how much of the criticism of FCP X is reducible to "This isn't an immediate drop-in replacement".

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:43:55 pm

It was inevitably going to lead to an app that wasn't going to be an immediate drop-in replacement

Again, and again, just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. Explain to me just where AV Foundation made a "drop in replacement" impossible? Just saying, well it's AV Foundation, doesn't explain anything. I don't see what the nature of the video file has to do with the design of the timeline. Does it contain video and audio. Can the tracks be separated and moved separately. So where's the special magic?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:47:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Again, and again, just because you say it, it doesn't make it so. Explain to me just where AV Foundation made a "drop in replacement" impossible? Just saying, well it's AV Foundation, doesn't explain anything. I don't see what the nature of the video file has to do with the design of the timeline. Does it contain video and audio. Can the tracks be separated and moved separately. So where's the special magic?"

Even if attempts were made to make it slavishly similar, any ground-up rewrite would have had too many subtle inconsistencies -- not to mention, as a new large codebase, too many bugs -- for it to drop into established workflows without a bunch of testing and transition time.

As I've noted previously, many facilities are hesitant even to install non-rewrite updates for 12-18 months after release.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:30:42 pm

"Even if attempts were made to make it slavishly similar, any ground-up rewrite would have had too many subtle inconsistencies ... for it to drop into established workflows without a bunch of testing and transition time."

OK, so now we've moved from it couldn't be done, to it would have been hard to do. As though FCPX isn't going to need 12-18 months of testing and transition time - only in this case after 18 months it still won't recognize legacy projects.

I don't know why you insist on trying to distort the obvious. You have a perfectly good argument to make - "FCPX is the wave of the future and in the next year or so will have a lot of the functionality of FCP7 - and if you don't like it, piss off." That's Apples (unspoken) argument and it might even be true. But to repeat ad nauseum that FCPX had to be written this way, and that anyone who is thinking of migrating away from Apple is basically an idiot are statements totally without merit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:20:25 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I don't know why you insist on trying to distort the obvious. You have a perfectly good argument to make - "FCPX is the wave of the future and in the next year or so will have a lot of the functionality of FCP7 - and if you don't like it, piss off." That's Apples (unspoken) argument and it might even be true. But to repeat ad nauseum that FCPX had to be written this way, and that anyone who is thinking of migrating away from Apple is basically an idiot are statements totally without merit."

Huh? I said myself it didn't have to written this way. Apple did this because they think it's better. They think it will get them more users in five years than implementing the standard generic muti-track timeline and bins approach. I think if they play their cards right, they might be correct.

My argument in this subthread is merely that even had Apple made FCP X more conventional, it still wouldn't have been a drop-in replacement from day on, so a lot of the complaints to the effect that it's not a drop-in replacement from day one are fundamentally unreasonable.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:27:50 pm

I don't understand why expecting a drop in replacement is unreasonable.

I'm working with Photoshop and After Effects right now. Both are 64 bit CS 5.5. Both can open legacy projects. The platforms are the same as the originals. If Adobe did what Apple did, there would be a full blown riot. I don't know how anyone can defend Apple.

We get it. You like them. I like Apple. But my brand loyalty only goes so far.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:39:17 pm

[John Chay] "I'm working with Photoshop and After Effects right now. Both are 64 bit CS 5.5. Both can open legacy projects. The platforms are the same as the originals. If Adobe did what Apple did, there would be a full blown riot. I don't know how anyone can defend Apple. "

Merely moving to 64-bit doesn't constitute a rewrite. PS and AE also moved from Carbon to Cocoa with CS5, but while that would normally require a rewrite it didn't really in that case, because Adobe's apps are mostly implemented on top of Adobe's own internal cross-platform API, which has as few hooks into the system as Adobe can manage.

Adobe's last real rewrite, I believe, was Premiere Pro 1.0. I think it could open Premiere projects, but on the other hand Adobe abandoned an entire computing platform for several years during the transition.

[John Chay] "We get it. You like them. I like Apple. But my brand loyalty only goes so far."

This statement implies that brand loyalty is causing me to defend something I otherwise wouldn't support, but one of the reasons I like Apple is that they're willing to do things like this. In my opinion, for instance, Photoshop has badly needed a serious UI overhaul for about the last eight years, but I doubt Adobe will ever have the guts to do one. And Avid... Media Composer's UI looks like its from 1995, and while the Avid fans can defend that choice until the heat death of the universe, I have no doubt it's a very large part of the reason Avid has been losing market share for years.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 29, 2011 at 4:19:17 am

[Chris Kenny] "This statement implies that brand loyalty is causing me to defend something I otherwise wouldn't support, but one of the reasons I like Apple is that they're willing to do things like this. In my opinion,"

That statement, and your overall defense of apple has the same feel as having a drink in support of sobriety.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair


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Paul Dickin
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:23:20 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Explain to me just where AV Foundation made a "drop in replacement" impossible? Just saying, well it's AV Foundation, doesn't explain anything. I don't see what the nature of the video file has to do with the design of the timeline. Does it contain video and audio. Can the tracks be separated and moved separately. So where's the special magic?"
Hi
Does it contain video and audio? Yes but no but! :-) (British TV catchphrase).
It also contains metadata.

Everything that the Project in FCP 7 would have contained is rolled into the AV Foundation assets you are editing with, and this metadata is stored by the OS as part of the movie file.

AV Foundation uses compositions to create new assets from existing pieces of media (typically, one or more video and audio tracks). You use a mutable composition to add and remove tracks, and adjust their temporal orderings. You can also set the relative volumes and ramping of audio tracks; and set the opacity, and opacity ramps, of video tracks. A composition is an assemblage of pieces of media held in memory. When you export a composition using an export session, it's collapsed to a file.
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/AudioVideo/Conceptual...

So in the old FCP 7's terms FCP X has no Project - ie no core of XML.
There is just metadata saved in a CoreData database, that relates to the 'mutable compositions' that your timeline GUI is concocting as you edit...

Something like that - I just read about this stuff, others far cleverer than I write this sort of 'special magic' :-)



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Herb Sevush
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:39:47 pm

OK, so instead of FCP7 where the timeline is a pointer to quicktime clips residing on a hard drive, a FCPX project is a pointer to a composition which is a collection of assets held in memory, a metadata database. Fine. It sounds like it should be very flexible, much more so than FCP7, so I still don't see why that makes creating timeline based editing impossible. Which is what my previous post was about. Why does AV Foundation rule out assignable audio tracks or a Viewer Window - which is Chris Kenny's argument.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:20:25 pm

In many respects a Secondary Storyline is like a track (with some notable differences.
Have you tried adding Connected Clips and selecting them and converting them to a Secondary Storyline? You can add transitions between clips on a Secondary Storyline and move them around relative to each other and add more Secondary Storylines above them. A couple of the notable differences is that they still connect to the Primary Storyline at one point and they can contain the media audio that's part of the video.

I think people who keep using "trackless" derogatorily may not have explored the difference between Connected Clips and Secondary Storylines.

Just because it doesn't have "V2" or "V3" above it doesn't mean it doesn't have similar uses and functions (sorry for the double negative).



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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:50:25 pm

Nothing abstract about it. There are companies like Avid and Adobe that have treated the professional community well. Avid has been around longer than FCP and they have never treated their customers like this. Avid is the same platform when I started using it 10 years ago.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:03:35 pm

[John Chay] "Avid has been around longer than FCP and they have never treated their customers like this. "

That's flatly wrong. Their treatment of their customers is what gave FCP great avenue.
There was Avid's announcement of dropping Mac support around 2000 when FCP was in its infancy.
There were exorbitantly expensive upgrades.
There were exorbitantly expensive support contracts and, in my experience as both an Avid user from 1989-2001 and facility engineer and trainer, support response was pretty poor in my very direct experience.
Avid was in a very shaky financial situation for a number of years, not due to poor products but poorly managed business and customer relations. The COW management can tell their own stories as well.
I'd guess that one reason so many are looking at Premiere Pro is that Avid's reputation still leaves a very bad taste in the mouths of us veterans.



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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:11:20 pm

Avid was expensive. FCP was not. That's the reason people went to FCP including myself. Avid as an editing tool has been consistent. They have never completely changed the format.

FCP did one thing I will always appreciate...they forced prices to drop for editing software.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:27:28 pm

And despite Avid dropping their prices radically they did NOT gain back market share. It wasn't just the price. It's perceived value. It's whether the price was "worth it." It wasn't because of poor customer service.

Back in the days of linear rooms Avid was a comparative bargain and there's was reluctance to move to it inspire of the price. Many facilities looked at it as a low "toy" in 1989. It was only when perceived value increased that moves escalated. It became the offline tool of choice until the resolution got to the point it was an online tool. Along the way it's LOW price compared to an online room made it an easy purchase so Avid apparently didn't consider customer relations critical since it was a low cost tool. They looked to after sales support contracts and expensive upgrade paths as a way to bring in more money for their low cost tool.

And then they were beaten at that game by FCP . . . which for Apple which became a way to drive Mac sales to professionals and escalated when Avid announced they were dropping Mac support. I would NOT call the announcement of Mac abandonment "consistent." They want from Mac only to potentially Windows only and that was very much a "complete" change of format. They got hit hard, just as Apple is this week, and Avid back peddled. It was truly a sloppy back peddle too if you were their at the time.



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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:35:47 pm

The big difference...Apple can take the hit where Avid could afford not to. Apple could drop all editing software all together and be just fine. If Avid dropped editing software there would be no Avid.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:04:50 pm

[John Chay] "Nothing abstract about it. There are companies like Avid and Adobe that have treated the professional community well. Avid has been around longer than FCP and they have never treated their customers like this. Avid is the same platform when I started using it 10 years ago."

"The vendor treats the professional community well during rare platform transitions" is a lot more abstract than "This software does what I want right now".

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John Chay
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:16:56 pm

Actually the real question is why is there a platform change to begin with? To me the answer is obvious.




http://www.john-chay.com

Editor/Videographer


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:27:03 pm

[John Chay] "Actually the real question is why is there a platform change to begin with? To me the answer is obvious."

Virtually everything people where asking for required abandoning the 32-bit QuickTime/Carbon codebase. And the FCP UI was also clearly something from the classic Mac OS era; that was always going to get a major overhaul.

The only big 'optional' change, really, was the decision to try to improve on traditional muli-track editing and bin-based clip organization. If they hand't done that, nobody would have to learn anything new, really, and backwards compatibility would have been easier to implement. But forgoing the implementation of an improved approach because some people will initially be uncomfortable with it is not a recipe for long-term growth, and even if Apple had tried really hard, importing sequences from FCP 7 was never going to be more than approximate, with an entirely different rendering engine, a different library of effects/transitions, different clip parameters, etc.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:46:37 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Virtually everything people where asking for required abandoning the 32-bit QuickTime/Carbon codebase. And the FCP UI was also clearly something from the classic Mac OS era; that was always going to get a major overhaul."

Really? EDL. OMF, XML depended on QT? Nah. And I don't care if all my effects and such wouldn't re-import, but it would be nice to get some current and older projects easily into the new system to take advantage of it. I just imported a project into FCP7 from PPro 5.0 using XML and with some minor adjustments was up and editing - how hard would a system like that would have been? FCP X is not a replacement for FCP7, and it may be years before it is, it's that simple. Apple took a very arrogant approach, threw away 10 years of goodwill and STILL haven't said a friggin' word about this mistake. If i can stomach the purchase, FCPx will be fine for those non-pro projects our friends and families are always roping us into, and can easily be done at home on a laptop, But it is not ready for the types i jobs i have in the pro world, not by a long shot.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:58:05 pm

[james carey] "Really? EDL. OMF, XML depended on QT?"

No, that's a different issue. There are a whole bunch of features that, realistically, 80% of FCP X's user base never uses, and you've just listed several of them. Some people who do use those features seem to have wanted Apple to hold the entire app off of the market until these features were implemented (or hooks were added for third-parties to take over or whatever). But that makes no sense. Basically, these users are saying Apple should have denied this application to users who don't need these features for a few extra months just to signal that FCP X was a still a pro app by shipping the initial version with them. But that's, frankly, an unreasonably expensive signal to demand from Apple.

[james carey] "FCP X is not a replacement for FCP7, and it may be years before it is, it's that simple."

I think you need to make a list of the critical missing pro features (note: the critical missing features, not everything you'd like to have work differently) and see how long it is. Because my list came down to:

1. A way to export sequence data.
2. More audio exporting features.
3. Support for third-party I/O hardware.
4. Multicam.

That does not sound like it will take "years" to fix.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:17:40 pm

[Chris Kenny] "That does not sound like it will take "years" to fix."

Fair enough Chris, but for me it has come down to trusting Apple. I watched as they bought Shake and Color and then abandoned them - perhaps implementing some portion of their features in FCPx, which is good for FCPx users I suppose - but of limited use to pros. They also dropped xserve, xsan. It seems they are abandoning the high end pro market, good for them and their stockholders, bad for those of us who depend on continuity in our purchase decisions. As for XML and OMF, if it's so easy to fix, why not ship with it. Why not tell us when it will be implemented - how hard is that? Lack of just these two features is enough for me to not use FCPx. Finishing of my projects demands that i share my final timeline with audio people (OMF) and color graders (usually with XML - if not just a media managed FCP7 project) - I can't do that yet - or ever?

I will continue to use FCP7 but am in the process of upgrading to CS5.5 for PPro, and that looks amazingly promising. AE is of course one of my workhorse tools, and its integration with PPro and PS is just gravy. Maybe i should thank Apple, what do you think?

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:42:40 pm

Yeah - doesn't premiere look basically fine? I never would have bothered with it - people over the last year have started to say its ok, and I've always poo-pooed them, but now, well thank God it's in pretty good shape. Otherwise it'd be Avid and I'm not sure I could stomach that.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:45:47 pm

[james carey] "I watched as they bought Shake and Color and then abandoned them"

External products are not a good guide.

[james carey] "They also dropped xserve, xsan. It seems they are abandoning the high end pro market, good for them and their stockholders, bad for those of us who depend on continuity in our purchase decisions."

Xsan is still for sale (and integrated into Lion Server, i.e. about to get a hell of a lot cheaper to deploy). As far as Xserve goes, based on the rumors of rack-mountable Mac Pros, it's not clear we've seen the end of Apple in that market. And in any event, Xserve was always a fairly marginal product for Apple, much more so than Final Cut Pro.

I don't see what any of this has to do with FCP anyway. I'll say if again: if Apple really weren't interested in the pro video market, FCP X wouldn't exist. They'd have EOL'd FCP, not done a rewrite, and added some more features to iMovie to go after the prosumer market if that was the intent. The prosumer market doesn't need many of the things already in FCP X.

[james carey] "As for XML and OMF, if it's so easy to fix, why not ship with it."

As I've noted elsewhere, I suspect Apple's approach with FCP X is going to be to provide an API for third-parties, not directly implement export features for every format. An API is something you really don't want to rush, because if you need to make changes later it breaks other vendors' code.

[james carey] "I will continue to use FCP7 but am in the process of upgrading to CS5.5 for PPro, and that looks amazingly promising. AE is of course one of my workhorse tools, and its integration with PPro and PS is just gravy. Maybe i should thank Apple, what do you think?"

I think it's silly to make a long-term decision during a short-term information gap, unless doing so is entirely unavoidable.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:29:34 pm

[Chris Kenny] "External products are not a good guide."

wait, Apple Shake and Apple color external product - not sure what you mean?

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:34:26 pm

[james carey] "wait, Apple Shake and Apple color external product - not sure what you mean?"

They were external acquisitions. Either of them would have required essentially a complete rewrite to become an 'Apple' product (with native user interface, using native technologies). And they may well have been purchased primarily for Apple to get talent, not because Apple was all that interested in being in the high-end compositing market or the color grading market.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:34:00 pm

[Chris Kenny] "I think it's silly to make a long-term decision during a short-term information gap"

jeez Chris, thus doth protest too much, you have a dog in this show or something? i said I will continue using FCP7 and check out other options, including what looks to be a promising PPro5.5. If you think that's silly, then so be it.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:21:41 pm

[Chris Kenny] " if Apple really weren't interested in the pro video market, FCP X wouldn't exist. They'd have EOL'd FCP, not done a rewrite, and added some more features to iMovie to go after the prosumer market if that was the intent.

But that's exactly what they have done.
They EOL'd FCP, added some features to iMovie, and then gave it the FCP name because it's got marketing power.

Like what?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:17:30 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "But that's exactly what they have done.
They EOL'd FCP, added some features to iMovie, and then gave it the FCP name because it's got marketing power. "


This is simply false. There are some UI similarities. But iMovie is not based on the same rendering engine or media framework as FCP X.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:49:42 pm

[Chris Kenny] "This is simply false"
No, it is not as black and white as that. It is neither related to iMovie OR FCP7 code wise, but it shares a lot in the UI department with iMovie. as you said:
"There are some UI similarities. But iMovie is not based on the same rendering engine or media framework as FCP X."

You're right there. I was simplifying things but you latched onto that and attacked rather then answering the actual question I was trying to ask:

you said "if Apple really weren't interested in the pro video market, FCP X wouldn't exist. They'd have EOL'd FCP, not done a rewrite, and added some more features to iMovie to go after the prosumer market if that was the intent. The prosumer market doesn't need many of the things already in FCP X."

They EOL'd FCP and released a decidedly consumer oriented (in it's current release) program in it's place.
Tell me how that's different then what you outlined above?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 10:53:51 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "They EOL'd FCP and released a decidedly consumer oriented (in it's current release) program in it's place.
Tell me how that's different then what you outlined above?"


Because while the release may arguably be consumer-oriented, its technical foundations are substantially overbuilt for that purpose. It's not really a consumer app; it's a pro app that's presently missing a bunch of features.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 11:06:41 pm

[Chris Kenny] " its technical foundations are substantially overbuilt for that purpose."

I haven't anything that isn't Apple PR about the "technical foundations" What can you tell me about them?


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 11:12:35 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "I haven't anything that isn't Apple PR about the "technical foundations" What can you tell me about them?"

The "Apple PR" in this case goes into more technical detail than normal. In terms of the "overkill for the consumer market" sort of stuff: everything is rendered in a 32-bit float color space. Consumers working with video from 8-bit consumer cameras, authoring to 8-bit consumer media formats, do not need this. The engine is also extensively multithreaded and uses OpenCL (e.g. GPU acceleration) all over the place. Consumers simply aren't working on projects complicated enough for it to be worth the trouble for Apple to implement this stuff to improve their user experience. And of course there's the 4K support...

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:27:21 pm

[james carey] " watched as they bought Shake and Color and then abandoned them"

If you look at Apple's moves very carefully basically they've abandoned all outside purchases.
LiveType, DVDStudioPro, Shake, Color were all based on code coming from somewhere else.
This also includes Final Cut Pro itself.
Motion was theirs. The new FCPX is entirely theirs as is Compressor.

Basically it seems Apple has decided that they want ground up control code. That may actually be a good decision in the long run because they're no longer working on a patchwork fixes on somebody else's idea.
I think this is very much part of FCPX laying the groundwork for the next 10 years. They basically tossed everything they felt sustaining would probably become a development problem at some point.

I suspect one of things we'll be seeing, over time, is better audio handling and improved color grading in FCPX. It's not there yet but I think that's where they're headed.

I'm not quite sure how this will impact Logic which was from eMagic and how SoundTrackPro's disappearance plays into all that, except that I think we'll be seeing more audio mixing features at some point.



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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:48:53 pm

[Craig Seeman] "If you look at Apple's moves very carefully basically they've abandoned all outside purchases.
LiveType, DVDStudioPro, Shake, Color were all based on code coming from somewhere else.
This also includes Final Cut Pro itself."


understood, but it's still confusing, if not disheartening after learning and using a tool then having it tossed aside. DVD studio as an example. That was a most useful tool, here yesterday, gone today. pffft. you mention Motion, which in my opinion isn't as quality a tool as AE, but it's made by Apple so it stays - but Color goes - where is the sense to that. And so every time Apple acquires a product, and then markets it we should just ignore it because they will soon lose interest anyway, and we are left with a non-upgradable product. Lesson learned I guess.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:34:13 pm

I'd add importing older FCP projects however imperfect. So many of clients keep coming back for revisions for a few years. One doesn't need to be a big facility to need this. This is quite common with one person shops and lower budget clients.

I can keep FCP7 going for a while but obviously at some point it'll break under some OS update. I can keep a legacy machine going but this can become a problem as well. I can understand it not being a priority because, realistically, I can keep those clients on FCP7 for some many more months but at some point I'm going to HAVE TO move those projects to FCPX.



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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:46:46 pm

I agree, even a partial procedure for importing old projects would be preferred. Opening old projects happens all the time in my shop. And importing via XML as well, I mentioned just recently I imported an Abobe PPro project this way and was pleasantly surprised how much information came through, and how much time it saved. In fact XML would be the answer.

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Herb Sevush
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:27:25 pm

"The only big 'optional' change, really, was the decision to try to improve on traditional muli-track editing and bin-based clip organization. If they hand't done that ... backwards compatibility would have been easier to implement."

And every one would have been happy.

"But forgoing the implementation of an improved approach because some people will initially be uncomfortable with it is not a recipe for long-term growth"

The key word there is "improved." And it would have to be radically improved to be worth it, not just a little improved and only in some cases. If FCPX is radically better than traditional timeline editing then it will succeed.

Most editors, including myself, will knee jerk hate anything new, so I pretty much discount most of the editing complaints I've been reading. And you have been doing a good job correcting them and showing them new ways to do old things. But I also haven't heard anything that sounds like a radical improvement either - the items that sound good to me have nothing to do with the new editing scheme and have everything to do with being a 64 bit ap.

My work is 95% multi-cam and so far I haven't heard anything having to do with actual editing that makes me wish FCPX would hurry up their multi-cam implementation. On the other hand I am curious to learn how you can have a multi-cam function without having a viewer window. Time will tell.

And that time is probably more than you have been guessing. According to the latest accounts the version released is basically identical to the advanced versions seen by Phil Hodgetts and Larry Jordan last February. Despite private assurance from FCPX designers, they weren't able to add any functionality in the last 4 months. The idea that this is going to be ready to go Pro in less than a year seems very dubious to me. I'm glad your so confident.

"and even if Apple had tried really hard, importing sequences from FCP 7 was never going to be more than approximate, with an entirely different rendering engine, a different library of effects/transitions, different clip parameters, etc."

If Premiere Pro can open a FCP project perfectly using XML, then FCPX could have done the same as long as they hadn't arbitrarily decided to change the traditional multi-track system. And even so, a translation that wasn't perfect in terms of transitions and effects would have been better than nothing.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:55:53 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And every one would have been happy."

Frankly, you're crazy if you think that's the case. People would still be seriously freaking out about even minor UI differences, about backwards compatibility not working perfectly (despite everyone now saying they'd be fine with that), and about missing features in the first release.

You're right, though: if FCP X's new approach to editing is beneficial, it'll be successful, and if it's not, it won't. Apple was taking a risk there. I'm sure they knew they were taking a risk there.

[Herb Sevush] "And that time is probably more than you have been guessing. According to the latest accounts the version released is basically identical to the advanced versions seen by Phil Hodgetts and Larry Jordan last February. Despite private assurance from FCPX designers, they weren't able to add any functionality in the last 4 months. "

I suspect the "basically identical" judgement is kind of fuzzy, and anyway we have no idea what functionality might have been implemented during that time period that just isn't quite release-quality yet, so we haven't seen yet.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:33:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "If Premiere Pro can open a FCP project perfectly using XML, then FCPX could have done the same as long as they hadn't arbitrarily decided to change the traditional multi-track system. And even so, a translation that wasn't perfect in terms of transitions and effects would have been better than nothing."

I can't say for sure but I think a lot may have to do with AV Foundation. I think Apple is heading in a direction that Premiere isn't and users are only seeing the superficial implications in the GUI. Apple is tying into technology and coding that other NLEs aren't' and I think the advantageous may not be obvious yet. It may be that trying to emulate traditional sequence tracks in FCPX would really have been a hinderance to the direction they're heading in. I think this is what Randy Ubillos meant that FCPX is a beginning.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:33:18 pm

[Chris Kenny] "The only big 'optional' change, really, was the decision to try to improve on traditional muli-track editing and bin-based clip organization. "

Improved. mmm. FCP is trackless baby - they improved on multi-track editing by making it trackless.

no more - I'm going to get an ulcer or something.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Walsh
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:43:48 pm

I came late to the Mac party, arriving just two years ago, mainly because of Final Cut. But I found that I loved the OS and environment as much as FC, and am a bit of an OSX fanboy (mainly the reduced maintenance vs. my 3 PCs).

I don't buy the argument that this shift by Apple is all about markets and money. In fact, they've always told me to expect more of them then just bottom-line priorities. They could make all their hardware more cheaply, and increase their margins, but they've chosen to put other elements first (design, build, etc.). This has been the point of Aindreas's "Technology/Liberal Arts" sig image. They're doing fine financially, so there's no pressure for FC to "save the company." With a couple million registered users, it can't be losing money can it?

And above all, FC was the pointiest spearhead of "Made on a Mac." Film, TV, and video slowly adopted Final Cut, and much of the last 10 years of pop culture has been "Made on Mac" because of FCP. For this reason alone, they should have respected the pro market...not just for our notorious whining. They should maintain the pro apps to maintain their creative leadership position -- even just as PR.

I know their ad agency was always required, even in 2000, to cut the Apple spots on a Mac, with FC. I wonder how they'll grade, mix, and layback the next round of spots out of FCP X. We've seen over the last week how "Unmade on a Mac" works. It's amazing that Apple seems not to care...maybe time will tell. Maybe they need competition to prod them to action, the way that Avid and Adobe did.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover


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james carey
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:08:33 pm

Perhaps the best post yet on this whole miserable affair, well done - thanks!

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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Marco Solorio
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:13:11 pm

John, thanks for posting our blog post on the Cow. Appreciated. Crazy times.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


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David Battistella
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:31:45 pm

Nicely written Marco!

Hope you are well.

David

______________________________
Believe me. Everything is a lie.



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Marco Solorio
Re: Can Apple Be Trusted Ever Again?
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:39:34 pm

Am very well, thanks! Hope you are too! Been way too long since we've last hung out, buddy. I tweeted your recent video on cutting the Calcio video on FCPX. Nice work!

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Facebook | Twitter | Media Batch


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