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Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective

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Aindreas Gallagher
Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 2:53:52 pm

http://www.biscardicreative.com/blog/2011/06/transition-2-fcp-workflow-in-a...

it looks ok? I think, he said never ever having used it - it looks pretty close in the timeline, I can imagine using it and not freaking out basically - plus a lot of stuff is inherited from AE and I was AE before I was FCP, so that's sort of fine..

Does anyone have any professional sort of key thoughts about premiere? How big a deal is the lack of a native HD codec stuff? How stable is she? As freelance I'm generally using whatever the facility give me or the thing on my lappie, that was FCP in both cases, but now, well I'm trying to figure it out but I think the designy, small london post places are going to go premiere aren't they? I guess there's going to be Avid too now. Oh for all my years as a smug little FCP head sticking my tongue out at premiere and avid, it almost serves me right that I now have to learn both.

thank God Avid have a free thirty day trial really - that's me, the keyboard and a colostomy bag for a few weeks then.

I'll say another thing - my lappie is three years old - I don't actually think the next piece of hardware is going to be Apple. The one thing that irrevocably locked me to Apple was FCP. And really - who the hell knows whats happening with that OS three years down the line? Will we still see the file system? Walt Mossberg says Win8 is about as good as OSX so.... man this is a crazy week.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jean-Fran├žois Robichaud
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:03:51 pm

PPRO and FCP (pre-X) are so similar, they feel like they were separated at birth. I went from PPRO to FCP without a hitch years ago. The only learning curve was learning the shortcuts and finding commands in the menus. There are a few different timeline behaviours, but you should get used to them easily. If you've mastered FCP, then mastering PPRO is going to take you no more than a week.

Just like Avid, Adobe offers a 30-day trial.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:18:20 pm

Yeah, the timeline operation really does look pretty seriously similar, that's all good.

Jeffrey Hazell isn't totally down with it but nothing he says sounds like a deal breaker:
http://jefferyharrell.tumblr.com/post/6973003963/impressions-of-premiere

What's the deal with codecs tho? I read a guy giving out about adobe's lack of a DNXHD or PRORES - Presuming that the R3D with h264 mixed format timeline isn't always going to fly and I know it can't encode prores stuff - what codec do you most often plunk for if you're batch encoding a bunch of rushes? i'd happily whack out everything dvcproHD or whatever myself like a slob, I'm just curious what common practise is - Or does premiere really really not need to transcode?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Knight
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:48:22 pm

I use Premiere on a daily basis (I started using it 1995), in multiple configurations, ranging from a laptop P2 editing setup, a software-only desktop, and an AJA Kona desktop for outputting TV spots/shows. All in Windows 7. On average, I'll get an application crash once a month*. The performance can get sluggish, when I'm dealing with large bins (400+ clips), but it's not as crippling as working in FCP, where I am forever staring at a beach ball in a project that size. Granted, when I use Premiere on a Mac, I see the same beach ball (I teach After Effects, Premiere, and FCP in a lab full of iMacs). To me, there is a very noticeable difference in performance, when comparing Premiere in Windows and OS X. YMMV. I stopped using FCP on a daily basis in 2007, and don't miss it.

FYI, because Premiere is 64-bit, it is a RAM hog. Especially, if you use Dynamic Link. 6GB is fine for 8-bit short form stuff. If you're editing features/docs, 18-24GB is what you should be aiming for.

*The AJA system acts weird on occasion, but a reboot fixes any issues I encounter. The KONA drivers have been forever buggy in Windows.

You must unlearn transcoding. it's not necessary. If you're outputting to tape, you'll be rendering to whatever codec the hardware uses. Otherwise, an appropriate nVidia card will have everything playing in real-time. You also have the option of rendering all previews (thus transcoding) to various codecs (ranging from i-frame MPEG to DVCPROHD to uncompressed 210YUV.). In other words, you get to choose.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:13:13 pm

nice one, that answers a few - I did notice that on their specs page they say PPRO will fly with only either 10.5.8 or 10.6.3 - that seemed quite specific so I was wondering how OSX was treating it. i've got a mate who can assemble good PC rigs, and really, if I'm not FCP anymore, and God knows Jeffrey Harrell has me convinced there - the blog posts are great, and you just sort of know the scale of the problem from his descriptions, oops nearly went into a rant there -
But if I'm not FCP anymore then that removes my absolute need for OSX, and I'm not sure I trust that operating system at this point either. What if Open CL starts to grow weeds? what if they become more focused on hiding the file system from casual users and forget all about grand central - you know?

I've still got the 2008 MBP lappie with FCP7 - so that's fine, rock solid, nice RAM upgrade in her - that just sits there ready to go until FCP fades away - but I actually really do think it makes more sense at this point to go PC at this point. And I can't believe I'm typing that. I can get a RAM maxed rig for half the price of a mac tower. And windows 7 is pretty much fine right? man this is crazy, i can't believe apple tipped the table over like this.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Conlee
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:17:31 pm

I've been computer agnostic for a long time. My last computer was a PC running Avid, but when it came time to upgrade I finally went Mac because I figured sooner or later I'd need to be able to run FCP. That was 2 years ago, and I never had to run FCP (even though I own it). Now it looks like I probably never will.

Seems like I usually get 4 years or so out of a workstation. So I'll probably go PC the next go around too, in a year or two.

Chris


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:37:09 pm

yeah, I was always a rabid fan of Mac products, argued for them and stuff, but I always bought myself PCs from WinNT4 on - liked to do bits of 3DSMAX as well as AE, but then i started to get more and more into the FCP editing side at work, hence my current streak of apple land.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Walsh
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 3:51:57 pm

The latest CS5 and 5.5 versions are a wonderful change from the past. As a former windows guy, I tried and used six or seven versions of Premiere, and hated them all. I recently had to return to the CS5 version for a project that required .flv output, and was stunned by great the new version was.

All the basics tools are there, and it ran faster than FC7 did on the same 2009 Mac Pro. I didn't dig too deeply, but the integration with PS, AE, is obviously wonderful. It used my P2 files natively and playback was smooth and pretty.

Codecs are a puzzle for me still. I output old-school animation codec as intermediates since my files were short. Responses to Walter's post suggest that Cineform is the way to go, but I haven't dug into it.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:27:01 pm

Cheers bud, i'll check out the cineform thing


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Simpson
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:57:00 pm

What's the multicam like in PP and AvidMC? All I can find on PP appears to max out at 4angles. Sports/performance I tend to use at least 8 and as many as 12.

Thats why I came to FCP....


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 6:28:57 pm

[Chris Simpson] " What's the multicam like in PP and AvidMC? All I can find on PP appears to max out at 4angles. Sports/performance I tend to use at least 8 and as many as 12."

Our multicam is very good except for the fact that we do need to increase our number of angles from 4. This is something that we're looking right now.

On the positive side, ANYTHING can be a camera including a sequence. Also, there is no need to resolve all cameras to a single type of codec so you could for example mix a P2 clip with an XDCAM clip and not have any problems.

Dennis - Adobe


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 4:59:11 pm

Chris is right, you need to unlearn Transcoding. If you work with tape, you might find yourself in need of a capture codec, but everything is native. That's just the way it works.

I just did a test on my windows CS5.5 system.

I was able to stack three layers of 4.5K red RAW with transparency before I started dropping frames at 1/2 playback resolution (which is still about 3K) at 1/4 resolution playback (1080p) I got to 8 layers and then decided my time would be better spent writing this.

I have
3.33 GHz 6 Core i7
24GB RAM
nVidia GTX 480 (not officially supported, but one little text file rewrite and it works)


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 6:54:38 pm

Jesus Christ. Well that sounds.. reasonably effective. that's good.

Ok - think of five things you proper dislike in premiere - what are they? top of your head any order -


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Knight
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:30:12 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "think of five things you proper dislike in premiere"
There are dozens of things I yell at Premiere for every day.

At this very moment, my biggest peeve is that Premiere will de-select a clip in the Media Browser (not the project window) when I save a project. And it doesn't always do it, just when I'm not looking - so when I look back at the Media Browser, I've lost my place (and it doesn't help that a selected clip in the media browser is only a few shades gray off an unselected one). It sounds silly, but this tiny thing slows me down every day.

Would love to be able to import titles into After Effects.

There's far more I can find wrong, but then you'll go running back to FCP. :)



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:39:48 pm

Mate you're having a laugh - there's no shagging FCP to run back to. There's a big purple Barney in the editsuite waving his arms around going
"Immm mmmagnnnetic! Looiikkee theee iPPad!!! Puurrllayyy witthhh meee!!!"
And then I just back out of the edit suite screaming. Apple have mind raped me basically.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:29:40 pm

top of my head:

1) 2 second pause where I can't do anything while it auto saves.

2) Premiere defaults to trying to play back linked AE comps without rendering, which sounds fine except when ever I do a project with green-screen interviews, I end up with dosens of linked comps that can't play back, and I have to go through and try playing each one until Premiere decides it really can't play them back after all, and maybe rendering would be better.

3) When importing files from File biased cameras, clips which were split up because of the 4GB file size limit are duplicated. For example, If have two P2 clips named 001YG and 0021h which are part of the same clip, Premiere will give you two clips named 001YG which contain the footage from both clips. I have to go through and delete all the duplicates or my project will be a little hard to use...

4) There's a funny bug with merged clips, but that will be fixed soon I expect, since Merged Clips is new in 5.5

That's all I can think of really. I don't come across any other bugs offen enough to warrant mention.

a side note. I tried to export a title to AE... I ended up with an AE comp with a %50 transparent black solid. Smells like a bug.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:40:56 pm

if that's an example of the bad, well that's not too bad, with that and the rather crazy horsepower - besides - I can't take in any AE comps at all at the minute..


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 9:04:02 pm

I'm sure you will quickly find things that drive you up the wall, coming from FCP. But the same would be true if you were going the other way as well.

I chose CS5 over FCP because of the editing horsepower. You've no idea how fast things can be on 64bit until you try it... It was way faster then I was expecting. You should have seen the look on my face when I made a SD MPEG-2 again for the first time since upgrading.


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Jeff Greenberg
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 12:37:09 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "3) When importing files from File biased cameras, clips which were split up because of the 4GB file size limit are duplicated. For example, If have two P2 clips named 001YG and 0021h which are part of the same clip, Premiere will give you two clips named 001YG which contain the footage from both clips. I have to go through and delete all the duplicates or my project will be a little hard to use..."

If you go through the media browser (not file>Import) this problem doesn't exist.

Best,

Jeff G

Apple Master Trainer | Avid Cert. Instructor DS/MC | Adobe Cert. Instructor
------------
You should follow me (filmgeek) on twitter. I promise to be nice.
New- my book (with Richard Harrington and Robbie Carman)- An Editor's Guide to Adobe Premiere Pro
Compressor Essentials from Lynda.com
(older but still good) Marquee, Media Composer (3.5) and Basic/Advanced Color DVDs (1.0) from Vasst.com
Contact me through my Website


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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 1:57:01 pm

Well, there you go!

I've been using PP since before the Media Browser was added, so I never bothered to try importing footage that way.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 6:21:19 pm

[John-Michael Seng-Wheeler] "
Chris is right, you need to unlearn Transcoding."


So very true. This is one of the biggest things that we (Adobe) have to communicate to others. If you can edit natively with full real-time, the need for transcoding is less.

That being said, there are use cases where a DI workflow is good to have. We can use AME to batch things to any codec you need.

Dennis


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Ivan Radovanovic
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:13:29 pm

Guys, there are many possible workflows with PP.... and intermediate codec is not such a big issue.
Before considering any workflow, have one thing in mind: ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform are all VISUALLY lossless codecs, not MATHEMATICALLY lossless.
Because of that:
- Native editing should be your first choice. Especially because PP deal with the image information at the 32 bit float level.
- Next best option is offline - online. For example create PhotoJPG 960x540 proxy files, edit, swap with original files when you are done.
- Intermediate. Actually in PP you can choose your intermediate codec. It can be ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform. For some tasks even AVCINTRA 100 (that you can export from Media Encoder) will do the job.
I agree that Adobe should release their own intermediate codec that will be super fast with Mercury Engine.
Of course I could go much deeper in explanation of possible workflows, but I just wanted to illustrate some options.

http://twitter.com/#!/disample_dcc


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:06:12 pm

Do not underestimate my stupidity.

a few Qs...
Native editing should be your first choice
erm, just checking - what do we mean here - like the codec that walked in the door? it has been drilled into my head that it is a sin under god to edit with say H264/AVCHD given the kinds of temporal compression it employs etc etc. I think I would need to go to confession if I edited a H264 timeline. Is it really OK?

Intermediate. Actually in PP you can choose your intermediate codec. It can be ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform.
I thought apple.. Im thick as bricks - I've been FCP since birth - I thought ProRes was somehow exclusive to FCP? So if I just transcode the rushes with compressor or something first - I'm off to the races with ProRes QTs in PPro? They'll render out? Or is that the output itself just can't be encoded as ProRes?

I would ask more, but then I would start to look dangerously stupid.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Knight
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:34:03 pm

Editing natively with H.264 in Premiere is fine. One could argue that transcoding footage to ProRes reduces quality (since it's a lossy codec). If you need to edit in 10-bit (or higher), Premiere can do this, simply by changing the edit mode to suit your needs.

Premiere edits ProRes just fine, it simply cannot encode to it (at least, not in Windows). Apple never made it a true QuickTime codec, so blame them.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 7:50:07 pm

Nah I figured that was an apple lock in alright. It's no mad biggie. In theory there's crazy space savings there - I did a cut of a behind the scenes thing of a music video, they'd shot tons on a pair of 5Ds, the same suite where i was picking up the material was throwing around piles of prores from the Arri like for the main shoot thing - so if I was on premiere I could really just grab all that 5D avchd and just start bashing away with it? no transcoding for Andy - its totally Kosher to stay native with the camera format? Even FCPX basically wants to transcode everything it sees, it just doesn't tell you its doing it, you can stop it, but it wants to.. annnyway - so when you're outputting say, and its going out to an Avid or something or even back onto an FCP suite god help us all, what do you initially send out of premiere? lossless or animation or something? And then encode it to prores in compressor or something? I know the transcoding is bit and all that. Am I being very stupid about codecs? I've been mindlessly selecting ProRes for a long time now.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Knight
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 8:03:15 pm

Yes, it truly edits natively, and will mix and match (I'm sure doing a cross-dissolve between 5D footage and Intra-AVC will blow your mind).

As I said, in the few instances where rendering previews to a specific codec is required (previews being what Premiere creates to allow real-time playback of the timeline), you can pick and choose your codec.

When it comes time to output using Media Encoder, or Encore, I just give the client/facility whatever they ask for. If they ask for ProRes, I tell them to pick something else.



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John-Michael Seng-Wheeler
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 3:52:57 am

Yeah, I'm not sure what you'd do if a client asks for ProRes, though I think that if you have FCP 7 on the same system it can do it. That of course is a non option for windows users.

however, DNxHD works just fine. You have to download the codecs from Avid: http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=372311
and then you can render DNxHD files in a quicktime wrapper.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 6:38:18 pm

[Chris Knight] "Premiere edits ProRes just fine, it simply cannot encode to it (at least, not in Windows). Apple never made it a true QuickTime codec, so blame them."

The above is all true. If the Mac system has FCP or Logic on it, then Premiere Pro can encode ProRes.

Dennis - Adobe


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james carey
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 28, 2011 at 5:01:47 pm

This makes me feel better. Premiere was the first NLE i used on the Mac in 1995, prior to that using only tools on an Amiga before that whole scene blew up. I soon switched to Media 100, but missed a few features already available in Premiere at that time, nesting clips being a big one, I remember thinking how could M100 have left that feature out. Got into FCP in 2000 and haven't looked back, though use both AE and Photoshop extensively. Have heard good things about PPro for a while now, but did not want to bother with it. Until now, that is. It's funny, this little vid by Walter makes me think I should have switched earlier. Now to see how my Kona cards and the whole capturing system will work, anybody have experience with this yet?

Jim Carey
Director of Video, Radical Entertainment
linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jcarey256
mobygames: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,17212/


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walter biscardi
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 1:05:41 am

Thanks for noticing the series! So far I'm finding my FCP workflow translates very nicely to PPro. Adobe even includes Keyboard Shortcuts from Avid Media Composer and Final Cut Pro 7 to make it even easier for folks to transition.

AJA Video Systems released the new CS 5.5 Plug Ins and now we have good playback to the external monitors so that's great.

So far so good with PPro. Tomorrow we'll be installing Avid MC as well for more testing and I'm planning to post some videos on that testing too.

In the meantime, here's the links to all three parts so far of our "Transitioning" series.

Part 1: Transition an FCP Project to Adobe Premiere Pro


Part 2: FCP Workflow transition to Adobe Premiere Pro


Part 3: AJA Kona Board and Adobe Premiere Pro


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Chris Conlee
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 1:21:03 am

Really looking forward to your look at Avid. It's a different beast, and will not have as many direct similarities. I don't know your level of expertise with Avid, but if you have specific questions about how to accomplish certain things, by all means, give me a call or email me:

Chris Conlee
818-694-2112
conleec (at) yahoo (dot) com

I'd be happy to help.


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walter biscardi
Re: Walter Biscardi walks through PPro from an FCP perspective
on Jun 29, 2011 at 10:53:20 am

Looks like I posted Part 2 twice. Sorry about that. Here's the correct Part 3



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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