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Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)

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Mansur Oscar
Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 5:10:11 pm

using FCPX 10.1,
if we store our video files uncompressed into Internal SSD (system), versus that we store uncompressed videos to External HDD RAID. wouldn't be better on SSD?

Let's say for example: the internal SSD is 500Mb/read and write, and the External HDD RAID is 400Mb/read and write.
I'm asking this because I saw the External HDD RAID (especially Thunderbolt) are overpriced compare with SSD, that the SSD speed are greater and cheaper than HDD RAID, what is the secret?

1080/60p how much speed read&write enough? 4K/60p too?

isn't it about all the Speed? even internal?

And yes there're external RAID HDD the speed are even higher than available SATA3 SSD.
Mac Pro 2014 has a 1Gb/read&write SSD, will you need even a External storage if we forget the storage space?
(in this subject, skip storage space and External SSD)


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Tom Sefton
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 6:54:31 pm

Whichever way you work it, unless your projects are very short and you have quick turnaround times before dumping your project files to a long term storage device, RAIDs are cheaper and can offer faster performance dependent on your configuration. You can't expand the internal SSD in a new Mac Pro and for what I've seen from some of the GRAID, LaCie or Pegasus RAIDs, they aren't overpriced at all.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 8:30:29 pm

A couple of things:

1) your speed tests don't mean much on the internal SSD. Remember you'll be running the OS, the program and your video files ALL off the internal SSD. That's like three conversations simultaneously. The speed will drop considerably when all three of those are going on at the same time.

2) A little mentioned fact: SSDs don't have the same life as a HD. So, plan on replacing SSDs more often. This is why we're all wondering how long an external Raid made up of SSDs will actually last?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 9:16:24 pm

[Mitch Ives] "1) your speed tests don't mean much on the internal SSD. Remember you'll be running the OS, the program and your video files ALL off the internal SSD. That's like three conversations simultaneously. The speed will drop considerably when all three of those are going on at the same time."

SSDs don't suffer the same performance penalty for multiple seeks to different physical areas of storage that mechanical HDDs do. Speeds should not drop noticeably for OS, application, and storage use.


[Mitch Ives] "2) A little mentioned fact: SSDs don't have the same life as a HD. So, plan on replacing SSDs more often. This is why we're all wondering how long an external Raid made up of SSDs will actually last?"

This isn't really true of current solid state storage. Check out the SSD Endurance Experiment [link].

After writing 500TB of data -- the equivalent of 140 GB of data every day for 10 years -- the consumer-class Samsung 840 250 GB has lost the ability to write to about 1% of its usable capacity. And that's the worst stat in test.

My SSDs will fail someday, but so too will my mechanical hard drives. I don't expect 10 years out of any of them.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mitch Ives
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 10:38:55 pm

[Walter Soyka] "SSDs don't suffer the same performance penalty for multiple seeks to different physical areas of storage that mechanical HDDs do. Speeds should not drop noticeably for OS, application, and storage use."

That's interesting, because it did here when I tested it...


[Walter Soyka] "This isn't really true of current solid state storage. Check out the SSD Endurance Experiment [link]."

That is good news...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 19, 2014 at 11:36:23 pm

[Mitch Ives] "That's interesting, because it did here when I tested it..."

That is interesting. What's your configuration and how did you test?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 10:43:29 am

okay then show me a device that is faster and not lower space and not overpriced with it.
this SSD http://www.storagereview.com/adata_premier_pro_sp920_sata_ssd_review is 512GB for $339 or 1TB for $530. and it has 560Mb read/500 write, now is their like that with same speed or faster?


I liked to know, if we edit videos on too slow HDD, you will fill just slow or it's unstable to edit a HD on 5400rpm internal?

how about how much megabit enough speed for 1080p and 2160p at 60 frames?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 12:27:32 pm

[Mansur Oscar] "okay then show me a device that is faster and not lower space and not overpriced with it."

This device does not exist. SSDs are fast, but they are expensive and small. HDDs are cheap and large, but they are slow.

You cannot meaningfully ignore capacity in this conversation.

You were talking about uncompressed video: uncompressed 10-bit 1080p60 is around 450 MB/s. Uncompressed 10-bit 4096x2160p60 is nearly 1900 MB/s. A 512 GB drive will hold less than 20 minutes of 10-bit uncompressed 1080p60 and less than 5 minutes of 4096x2160p60.

That's why people buy RAID systems. A RAID exploits the fact that mechanical hard drives are large and cheap, and allows them to work in concert to improve their speed.

If you're looking for technical advice on what storage to use, let's talk about your real-world usage.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 2:56:44 pm

I Thank you for the numbers, but you do mean in Megabit or MegaByte?, 450Mb/s or 450MB/s | it's a huge different.

So if I choose uncompressed videos, then I should get at least 4TB storage. and that's mean included 3 or 4 HDDs with a speed above 500Mb/s which would be cheaper and even faster (depends the brand)
But if we choose a lower space for HDD RAID, it would be more expensive than SSD and even losing the important speed!, so here was I said why going to a more expensive 1TB/2TB RAID, lower space and lower speed. and I looked up again that they are really more expensive and overpriced if choosing the 1TB/2TB RAID HDD.

but if I choose compressed videos, then it's look like fine to get 512GB and above that an SSD can be fine with a USB3 or internal (internally system should be at least ~ 333Mb/sec if it's 500Mb/sec cleanly), or I May can just grab a SATA3 SSD with connection Kit USB3, or thunderbolt if possible.



From what I understood, I should choose either a huge size more than 4TB thunderbolt, or a SSD 1TB/512GB (internal or external USB3). and both of them can handle 1080p and 4K.

uncompressed videos are better quality, but if you edit a 4K or 1080p compressed video in 500Mb/s storage, there won't be need to optimize (uncompressing) with FCPX... right?


Well, about real-world usage. it's difficult to say. I can say that I do everything... animation 3D, cartoon, documentary, music...etc, maybe I should say personally usage. and I have videos that are up to 6 hours.


Thanks for your informations


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Walter Soyka
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 4:10:06 pm

[Mansur Oscar] "I Thank you for the numbers, but you do mean in Megabit or MegaByte?, 450Mb/s or 450MB/s | it's a huge different."

I mind my capital Bs. I meant megabytes as I wrote.


[Mansur Oscar] "uncompressed videos are better quality, but if you edit a 4K or 1080p compressed video in 500Mb/s storage, there won't be need to optimize (uncompressing) with FCPX... right?"

Take the ProRes Challenge (tm). Look at a piece of uncompressed video and the same video, recompressed with ProRes, side-by-side. In most cases, uncompressed is not worth the overhead.

1080p60 ProRes 422 runs about 293 Mb/s. 4096x2160p60 ProRes 422 runs about 1257 Mb/s.(Since you're talking megabits, I'll talk megabits, too.) 500 Mb/s storage will not cut it beyond a single stream of 1080p60. If you really want to work with these high frame rates and large rasters, you need some serious storage.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 6:26:02 pm

You have catch me! I really liked you answers! Dear, Walter Soyka

only I didn't understand really this from you: (500 Mb/s storage will not cut it beyond a single stream of 1080p60)?
for the 30 frames are half the numbers Mb/s you said for the 60 frames, right?

by the way, where and what is ProRes Challenge?, I searched for this but I liked from you to give me your recommended way.

About real life (not cartoons):
The problems of 30 frames aren't real life (look) like on 60Hz TVs (only I'm not sure about OLED TVs), but on 120Hz TVs it make the video double the 60Hz refresh rate, which makes the 30 frames look like the 60 frames which is looks real life, but later I saw the 120Hz aren't good idea, so I have to find a solution, and you have answered my solution; it's the serious storage! I guess it's the SSD RAID Thunderbolt 2


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Gary Huff
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 7:33:42 pm

[Mansur Oscar] "The problems of 30 frames aren't real life (look) like on 60Hz TVs (only I'm not sure about OLED TVs), but on 120Hz TVs it make the video double the 60Hz refresh rate, which makes the 30 frames look like the 60 frames which is looks real life, but later I saw the 120Hz aren't good idea, so I have to find a solutio"

Well, here's a problem: how are you going to get these high-speed framerates on TV? Blu-ray only supports 720p60, and a lot of streaming services do not allow over 30fps. How are you planning to show your high frame rate content?


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 8:53:27 pm

Well I'm not sure about that, But I have to save my real life videos as 60p, and looks like that is why my Samsung LED Series 5 TV doesn't show the 1080/60p file from directly from disk, even it's from Samsung Camcorder recoder! Samsung doesn't play on Samsung! Computers are the master!
I think we should skip the Bluray as Apple did, and store our content as a content on disc (bluray) rather than making for bluray player.

I don't have much 60p, as you know... most of content available are either frames 24, 25 and 30.

About streaming service, how do you say 60 frames isn't allowed? or you mean progressive 60p isn't allowed but interlaced 60i is allowed?
because for example, Aljazeera HD is 60 frames (you can easily know by the people movement)


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Gary Huff
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 9:10:07 pm

[Mansur Oscar] "Aljazeera HD is 60 frames (you can easily know by the people movement)"

I highly doubt that it's 60p, more likely 30p. I have yet to encounter a streaming service (YouTube or Vimeo for instance) that allowed 60p content. They all accept 60p content, but when you watch the stream, it will have been converted to 30p.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 21, 2014 at 1:07:41 pm

[Mansur Oscar] "You have catch me! I really liked you answers! "

Thanks. I hope it's helpful.


[Mansur Oscar] "only I didn't understand really this from you: (500 Mb/s storage will not cut it beyond a single stream of 1080p60)?
for the 30 frames are half the numbers Mb/s you said for the 60 frames, right?"


Yes, they are.

See the Appendix of the Apple ProRes White Paper [link] for more on target data rates.


[Mansur Oscar] "by the way, where and what is ProRes Challenge?, I searched for this but I liked from you to give me your recommended way."

I just made it up. I meant for you to take some of your uncompressed video, compress it with ProRes 422, and compare them side-by-side to try to tell the difference.


[Mansur Oscar] "I have to find a solution, and you have answered my solution; it's the serious storage! I guess it's the SSD RAID Thunderbolt 2"

I personally use a mix of HDD RAID and solid-state storage. Each of my workstations has a locally-attached SAS RAID (Thunderbolt 2 would be fine) for a blend of speed and capacity as well as either internal SSDs or solid-state PCIe cards for fast but small storage.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 21, 2014 at 9:07:07 pm

a special Thanks to Walter Soyka, &Thanks to you all everybody!

I got my way to what to do, I should choose too small (under one 1TB SSD) or too big huge above 4TB RAID, choosing normal stage is overpriced.


Gary Huff, isn't 30p and 25p lag movement? (non real life?), I have my old sony camcorder 8mm, they're 50i and it's real life like.

The Aljazeera HD should be 50i or 50p, (sorry to say 60i, maybe in USA 60i)


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Gary Huff
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 22, 2014 at 3:37:11 am

[Mansur Oscar] "Gary Huff, isn't 30p and 25p lag movement? (non real life?), I have my old sony camcorder 8mm, they're 50i and it's real life like. The Aljazeera HD should be 50i or 50p, (sorry to say 60i, maybe in USA 60i)"

Lag movement? Never heard that before. It has more to do with motion blur. The less, the more life-like it looks.

60i and 60p are different. 60i looks like crap on anything but a television screen, especially streaming onto a computer monitor. 60i is really 29.97.


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Mansur Oscar
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 22, 2014 at 5:42:57 pm

I think there is something wrong with myself that I don't understand?

But let ask you that,
I have iPad, iPhone, other devices that records at highest 30p, and their movements (playback on any devices) are laggy or non-real life look.
and I have a camcorder this Samsung HMX-M20, http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Maximum-Camcorder-1080P-Finger/dp/B00365EA4S which records 1080/60p, the movements are real life like in 60p and 60i, but movements in 30p and 30i are same as the devices above (iphone ipad..etc)

So here is why I say that 60p are real, and 30p are light and not real life look but only for capacity storage, I hope that I'm wrong...
Thanks


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Bill Davis
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 21, 2014 at 5:55:16 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Take the ProRes Challenge (tm)"


Walter,

If you're taking this on the road like Pepsi - remember you've GOT to email me when you come to Arizona.

You can stay in the guest house and I'll even provide meals.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Fabrizio D'Agnano
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 20, 2014 at 10:42:35 pm

I had a similar dilemma. I wanted to be able to edit at home on my 2011 MBP every now and then, so I was about to buy an OWC external bus powered two drives USB3/FW800 RAID. My MBP has no USB3 port, but I could use my Belkin adapter at home, and the FW800 when on a ship, on a train or on a shooting mission. It's about 220 MB/s USB3 or 85 MB/s FW800. I already do very basic cuts from 1080i AVCHD footage on an external FW800 drive, so it would do. As a different and maybe better option, I had an idea I could replace my current second drive (1TB 5400rpm in place of the optical drive) with a 1 TB ssd. So I ran a BM speed test on my system Samsung 840 EVO 250 Gb ssd, and to my surprise I read a very good 480 MB/s read and write at first test, then down to something like 35 MB/s write and 80 MB/s read on further readings. I don't know if it's a problem with my drive or if it's normal, but all my other external drives offered more consistent results.

Fabrizio D'Agnano
Rome, Italy
early 2008 MacPro, BM Intensity Pro, early 2008 iMac, 2011 MacBook Pro, FCP7, FCPX, OSX 10.8.3


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Tom Sefton
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 21, 2014 at 6:55:00 am

The Pegasus P2 thunderbolt series of RAID drives are well priced, as are the ProMax, LaCie and GRAID brands. For around $2k you will get 8tb of storage that is capable of around 450MB/s in raid 0. Long term it's worth buying the 6 or 8 bay versions and running at raid 5 or 6 for a good balance of speed and safety. An 8 bay version in raid 0 would be achieving nearly 1000MB/s.

Unfortunately with the new Mac Pro, there isn't the option to expand internally, and editing any projects from your system drive for an extended period of time isn't the best idea. Thunderbolt storage is the way to go.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Internal SSD VS External HDD RAID (Price and Speed compare)
on May 21, 2014 at 12:48:23 pm

[Tom Sefton] "For around $2k you will get 8tb of storage that is capable of around 450MB/s in raid 0. Long term it's worth buying the 6 or 8 bay versions and running at raid 5 or 6 for a good balance of speed and safety. An 8 bay version in raid 0 would be achieving nearly 1000MB/s."

As you say For $2230, we have a 6-bay Pegasus2 with 12TB of storage that runs 800-900MB/s in RAID 5 configuration. That's cheap. Anyone who doesn't think so may want to find another hobby...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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