FORUMS: list search recent posts

But it's a DRY camera heat...

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bill Davis
But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 7:26:31 pm

That comment Black Magic's Dan May made to me about the URSA being "water cooled" has been rattling around my brain for the past week - and popped back up when I was looking at the promo video from the CION this morning.

It caused me to focus on the BIG wraparound grid of what must be cooling holes on the CION body up where the sensor would be mounted.

Clearly, these new sensors are generating a boatload of heat. And the camera engineers are having to deal with that.

I wonder what that means in a few areas. Sensor life. Operator comfort when the camera is shoulder mounted? Dust? What about shooting here say, Arizona, vs Alaska? Will the heat be an issue?

I wonder what the new important factors will be in this new era when basically, computer engineering companies are designing the new generation of cameras - rather than dedicated camera companies - or at least the huge corporations that have long invested camera design divisions with lots of experience.

Interesting to speculate as our industry evolves.

Thoughts?

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Don Scioli
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 7:36:12 pm

I agree with you on this point. With cameras and of course NLE's, tech engineers seem to be doing the designing from a "tech" standpoint, rather than a functioning film/broadcast/ industry standpoint. The most obvious example of this was of course Apples' renaming of industry standard conventions in FCPX (no more bins, timelines, etc) I suspect this is the reason why the Arri Alexa was adopted so widely by the ultra conservative film industry as Arriflex has been around for many many years and many many films.

Will form top function?


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 7:50:03 pm

Heat is always a problem with electronics but back in the SD days you had pretty big cameras that didn't have to do a ton of processing so heat build up wasn't a major problem. These days you have much larger sensors in much smaller camera bodies containing processors doing significant amounts of number crunching.

That's one of the limiting factors of DSLRs for shooting video is there's very little space for heat dissipation so there's only so much you can pack in there before it overheats and glitches out. Also, until RED figured out their cooling problems crews literally strapped ice packs to the the early RED ONE cameras when shooting out in hot temps.


Return to posts index


Michael Aranyshev
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 2:23:57 am

True, Red One overheating was a major factor to consider in the early days. Also the original Sony Cinealta would lose back focus after a couple of hours of work due to heat expansion of the mount plate.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 7:40:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "Clearly, these new sensors are generating a boatload of heat. "

I would suspect that the processor is generating quite a bit of heat, especially on the URSA where the processor is overengineered to allow for new sensors later on.


[Bill Davis] "I wonder what the new important factors will be in this new era when basically, computer engineering companies are designing the new generation of cameras - rather than dedicated camera companies - or at least the huge corporations that have long invested camera design divisions with lots of experience."

Moore's Law, coming soon to a tripod near you.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 7:57:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Moore's Law, coming soon to a tripod near you."

Who's doing the t-shirts of this??? I want one.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 8:11:30 pm

[Bill Davis] "Who's doing the t-shirts of this??? I want one."

If we want it to sell, we need to acknowledge the cool kids. We should change tripod to slider -- or even better, gimbal!

The shift in what it takes to make a camera, and thus who can do it, is fascinating to watch. I'm a post guy, but I'd be interested to hear from more knowledgeable contributors. Who do you think this will affect most, and how? Canon? Sony? Panasonic? ARRI? RED?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 8:56:26 pm
Last Edited By tony west on Apr 23, 2014 at 9:35:36 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Who do you think this will affect most, and how? Canon? Sony? Panasonic? ARRI? RED?"

I would say first it effects rental houses who have invested in those you listed.

It used to be you could take some time and get a camera paid off before people where asking for the newest latest thing (that was half what you paid for yours).

I don't know about others, but there is still a trust factor when I'm putting down the cash.

BM has not been making cameras long enough to have a track record form me, and the same for AJA


I know about Sony, Panasonic and Canon.

I have yet to see anybody out in the field shooting with a BM camera. Maybe this new one will change that.

I hope that Sony and the rest don't start sacrificing quality to get down to a cheap price to compete.

A race to the bottom if you will.

You could save money on the upfront price of a camera but if it goes down on a important job and bags you will it be worth it.


On a side note, I noticed that X is on the laptop in their ad for the CION

Interesting.


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 23, 2014 at 11:25:39 pm

Having shifted all my computers to water cooling where possible and having done a recent location shoot with a RED Epic with a fan blowing like a Cessna about to take off, I vote for water cooling. Simple, closed quiet and efficient.

They will all do it.


Return to posts index


Bob Woodhead
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 12:45:21 am
Last Edited By Bob Woodhead on Apr 24, 2014 at 12:46:16 am

As a ditto to what Tony said, I'll say that I'm pretty "over" cameras. Going out of style faster than the latest internet cat meme.

These days the thought of some cine EF glass gets me goin'. Like the new Canon cine servo-optional 17-120, 4K spec'd.... mmmmm...... $32K well spent....


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 3:10:33 am

[Bob Woodhead] "Like the new Canon cine servo-optional 17-120, 4K spec'd.... mmmmm...... $32K well spent...."

I am so curious as to what this lens is going to look like.

I am not a fan of EF still lenses on video cameras so I hope that Canon used some special sauce.

While Canon's colorimetry (in general) is typically "pleasing", it is also very specific.


Return to posts index

Bob Woodhead
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 9:57:42 am

Have you looked at their (fairly new) cine primes? I've been A/B'ing them against the Zeiss CPs, and they look at least as good (in my half-blind, uncalibrated, possibly inebriated opinion).


Return to posts index


Gary Huff
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 11:53:25 am

[Bob Woodhead] "Have you looked at their (fairly new) cine primes? I've been A/B'ing them against the Zeiss CPs,"

Zeiss is more neutral, if not leaning very slightly towards the coolish end of the spectrum, while the Canons are warmer. Personally, I like the warmth of the Canons.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 6:23:37 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Have you looked at their (fairly new) cine primes? I've been A/B'ing them against the Zeiss CPs, and they look at least as good (in my half-blind, uncalibrated, possibly inebriated opinion)."

I have not looked at their cine primes, actually. I have a bit of an issue with Canon lenses. It is just my opinion as the person who receives and has to spend a lot of time with footage.

I think they have a very specific look that is not always what I need, I think that without the proper handling, that they can be very soft, can have a lot of artifacts, and quality varies from lens to lens (which is true of a lot of lenses).

I think they are wonderful lenses for stills (which, let's face it, is Canon's forté) so I tend to look around at other lenses, again, it's just my opinion.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Richard Herd
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:13:03 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:14:12 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Have you looked at their (fairly new) cine primes? "

It's a bit old but worth watching. Canon CN-E Prime Lens Breathing Test

EDIT: also there is a decent discussion in the comments, at vimeo.


Return to posts index


Gary Huff
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 11:52:06 am

[Bill Davis] "That comment Black Magic's Dan May made to me about the URSA being "water cooled""

[Bill Davis] "Clearly, these new sensors are generating a boatload of heat."

Water cooled? BOATload? I am sensing a connection here...


Return to posts index

Santiago Martí
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 24, 2014 at 5:52:02 pm

Sensors tend to get hot at HFR recording, maybe watercooling is there to let the camera reach 60fps or something. I'm all in for new cameras, I liked the BM and AJA, but then I stopped and think, I still have my Red One MX, it is still a great cam, and you can find them used really cheap. Good movies were made with those, reliable workflows were established.

I know 4K looks like the new thing, but it was there from 2008 at least.

As excited as I was with those two cameras, I decided to keep my Red One MX, waiting for Dragon update with my Epic and seriously thinking about an Arri Amira, though I keep hearing good things about the Sony F55, but for my conservative clients, Arri will always be Arri. Tough choice.

Lenses: Canon cine primes and Compact primes are really still lenses cine moded, they are really overpriced for me, and EF mount is restrictive. If you want "cheap" lenses for video work, check the new Schneiders Cine Xenon, made for video and fullframe, wich makes them future proof of bigger sensors, and they are all T2.1 with a consistent look between all of them. I will sell my beloved Red Primes to get a set of Schneiders. I am planing to buy the new Leicas Summicron C also, way expensive, but lenses don't loose value over time, cameras do, faster than ever. So, if you want to invest safely, buy good lenses and cameras you know you will recover the purchase cost sooner than later.

Santiago Martí
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar
Red One M-X, Red Epic X waiting for Dragon update, Red Pro Primes, Adobe CC, Assimilate Scratch


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 4:21:24 am

[Santiago Martí] "As excited as I was with those two cameras, I decided to keep my Red One MX, waiting for Dragon update with my Epic and seriously thinking about an Arri Amira, though I keep hearing good things about the Sony F55, but for my conservative clients, Arri will always be Arri. Tough choice."

Just finished grading a project shot 4K raw on F55. It is, in my opinion, the least compromised system currently on the market (well, except the F65, I suppose). Compared with Alexa there's more resolution, a compressed raw workflow that makes shooting raw much more practical, and the camera is much smaller and has substantially better battery life. Compared with the Epic, color is better right out of camera, I find it's easier to take it in the direction I want it in a grade, and working with the footage is smoother without any specialized hardware than working with Epic footage is even with a Rocket.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index


Mark Suszko
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 4:03:11 pm

How well does a water-cooled camera's plumbing stand up to travel in unpressurized aircraft cargo sections, and shooting at extreme altitudes, or in the cold?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 4:04:35 pm

[Mark Suszko] "How well does a water-cooled camera's plumbing stand up to travel in unpressurized aircraft cargo sections, and shooting at extreme altitudes, or in the cold?"

This was my first thought.

Water cooled computers make sense as they are relatively stationary, but a camera?


Return to posts index

Clint Wardlow
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 5:30:26 pm

[Mark Suszko] "How well does a water-cooled camera's plumbing stand up to travel in unpressurized aircraft cargo sections, and shooting at extreme altitudes, or in the cold?"

I think if the cooling system breaks, it exposes the core and causes a chain reaction. Everything with-in 40 miles of your camera is rendered unlivable for 1,000 years.


Return to posts index

Mark Suszko
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 25, 2014 at 6:01:12 pm

Maybe they could explore using phase-shange materials, Peltier junctions, and heat pipes leading to external radiators. I remember the heat sink fins on the old RCA TK-series cameras getting pretty warm, and I found the warmth of our early DVCPRo HD cameras disconcerting.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 27, 2014 at 4:59:12 pm

Or perhaps they just engineer the water storage system the same way that folks engineer stuff like water bottles and sodas and thermoss and other fluid container - zillions of which fly around the world daily without big issues???

Just saying.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 27, 2014 at 6:00:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "Or perhaps they just engineer the water storage system the same way that folks engineer stuff like water bottles and sodas and thermoss and other fluid container - zillions of which fly around the world daily without big issues???"

So designing a closed system of thin-walled, narrow tubes that twist and turn through very confined spaces, experience rapid, extreme temperature changes while transporting a liquid under pressure is the engineering equivalent of an Evian bottle?

There are a number of reasons heat sinks and/or fans are by far the preferred method of cooling electronics. Even Apple's experiment with liquid cooling was short lived and problematic (and desktops get knocked around a lot less than cameras do).


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: But it's a DRY camera heat...
on Apr 27, 2014 at 6:48:26 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "There are a number of reasons heat sinks and/or fans are by far the preferred method of cooling electronics. Even Apple's experiment with liquid cooling was short lived and problematic (and desktops get knocked around a lot less than cameras do)."

Andrew, I'm not saying that it won't be an issue. But I'm also not saying that it will. It's no different in my mind from noting that the Cion has lots of holes in it's body and how that will interact with - for example - internal dust accumulation. There might not be a problem at all. And somebody may be able to take off the "grills" and blow the dust out the same way I do every couple of years with my MacPro Tower Unit. Nobody trashes those for that issue in dusty climates. It's no biggie. And similarly we don't know whether that URSA cooling scheme will leak after one flight, or stay perfectly stable for 20 years.

And that's the point. We're debating speculative theory here because we don't have any actual hands-on experience.

NAB and other trade shows that feature "technology demonstrations" and "new product introductions" always leave a lot of unanswered questions. Sometimes the tech specs alone give us reason to be interested in a new technology. But only to a point.

The original RED NAB intro being a superb example where the excitement about the design ideas came first, but then there is an extremely long multi-year climb before those original specs get turned into a dependable shooting solution - with lots and lots of technical refinement and direction changing along the way.

Any of the new cameras from BlackMagic, AJA, Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, and others have to climb the same steep hill from theory to practice.

It's fun to talk about - but right now nobody has a clue whether "leaky Ursa" or "Cion overheating" or who knows, maybe "amazing JVC Elyse" becomes the big talking point a year or two from now.

There's just no way to tell at this point.

Which IS my point.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]