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Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X

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Bobby Mosca
Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 21, 2014 at 10:16:16 pm

This is from Bob Zelin's NAB roundup. Too harsh?

"BOB ON NAB NLEs

[Ed. note: We asked Bob for his observations on NLEs in a follow-up email. As someone who designs and installs systems for a wide variety of customers using all kinds of products, he has a different perspective than many other folks who talk about this. Here's what he wrote us.]

I can only say from what I observed. People seem to care about Adobe CC Premiere. There is a loyal client base of AVID Media Composer and Symphony, and they want to see how Media Composer integrates with any product that you are showing at NAB. And DaVinci Resolve is the third program that everyone wants to know, "How does your product work with DaVinci Resolve?"

But you don't see this with FCPX. NO ONE was showing FCPX workflow. (Softron was, and I was at the Maxx Digital booth, and almost no one cared. ) Perhaps I am wrong, but most of these companies are not taking FCPX seriously, and are not making sure to show or promote workflows for FCPX.

On the other side of the coin, every shared storage company says that you can use FCPX with their shared storage system – but no one is "banging the drum" like they are for Adobe or AVID or DaVinci.

Just my observation."


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 21, 2014 at 10:36:04 pm

[Bobby Mosca] "On the other side of the coin, every shared storage company says that you can use FCPX with their shared storage system – but no one is "banging the drum" like they are for Adobe or AVID or DaVinci."

Well, given that FCPX was not really designed for collaborative workflows from the start, and that its adoption by larger facilities and larger workgroups has been very slow, why would shared storage manufacturers want to throw their R&D resources at it? Where's the value???

Like ALL the other companies in the shared storage sector, our Platform and Platform Studio DO support FCPX, but, like all others in this sector, we're not going to be throwing lots of resources at it until it proves itself in the marketplace as a REAL contender for the many companies who REALLY need shared storage and collaborative workflows.

David Roth Weiss
ProMax Systems
Burbank
DRW@ProMax.com

Sales | Integration | Support

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 21, 2014 at 11:28:14 pm

What was harsh? Just sounds like an observation of Bob's stated matter-of-factly.


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Baz Leffler
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:01:40 am

[Andrew Kimery] "What was harsh?"

Obviously they have never experienced Bob when he really IS being HARSH!


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Jason Brown
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:08:16 am

Yea, for real. That wasn't harsh at all! He just laid out what he saw. I love talking with him when I get a chance...he's always candid and real.

Great read, btw...i wasn't able to go and I enjoyed the article.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin was PERFECTLY NICE to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:18:02 am
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:22:29 am

[Jason Brown] "Great read, btw...i wasn't able to go and I enjoyed the article."

I think Bob's articles are better than the show. :-)

I'm glad that we're dispensing with this angle fairly quickly. Bob was in fact showing X the entire show, when he wasn't doing his staggering research.

His first draft really didn't cover NLEs -- not that there's much here. I, as his editor, had asked for his observations precisely because he really doesn't care. If you want shared storage for the video app on your Blackberry, he'll figure it out.

But that's why I said right there in the article that the sidebar was nothing but me putting together some thoughts from his email.

I hope nobody here is shocked that Bob observed that there wasn't much demand for X shared storage...even though every vendor does in fact support X, and most were ready to show it when requested. Or, more accurately, IF. And there just wasn't much interest.

This really is a remarkable article, and I look forward to talking about anything in it but this. LOL



EDIT: And yes, not harsh about ANYTHING. My only disappointment in the article as his editor was that I didn't have to edit out any profanity. LOL


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Bob Zelin was PERFECTLY NICE to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:36:47 am

My own week at NAB, including a couple of super busy days in the AJA booth, confirm Bob's observation. While the occasional 1-person-shop Editor may have been using FCPX, not a single facility person I talked with was using or interested in FCPX - it was 90% Adobe CC with Avid and FCP7 making up the difference. And the FCPX7 folks were all talking about the switch to CC.

The only other "NLE" getting any buzz at all was Resolve 11, which I can't wait to try out...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Shane Ross
Re: Bob Zelin was PERFECTLY NICE to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:56:19 am

NAB is for those of us 2% who are in broadcast or film production. The high end stuff. With church production thrown in there. A majority of people who edit with FCX...heck, a majority of people who edit give a HOOT about NAB. And about the high end solutions shown there. The low end stuff geared for them isn't worth showing there because...well...those users don't go to NAB. It's all about BROADCAST...and that is a narrow niche.

Pretty big convention for that narrow niche, however...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin was PERFECTLY NICE to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 1:24:26 am

[Shane Ross] " It's all about BROADCAST...and that is a narrow niche."

That was true for many years, and is still true where you were and the people you know. It's still true for shared storage.

The rest of the lower south, not so much. Flights are cheap, rooms are cheap, admission is free. Tirekickers abound. I've worked booths, including Apple's in 2003, where I'd have killed to talk to more than the occasional pro customers. I'm certain that this is why Apple stopped doing NAB when FCP was at its pro peak. They weren't reaching enough people in those booths that they weren't already reaching in the mall. They were doing the real business in the suites, which I'm sure they still are.

You wouldn't believe how many people came up to me in the Boris FX booth asking what's a plug-in. And in the Avid booth: "So, what's Symphony? Is that kind of like Final Cut?" Dude, I heard that all day.

You only really meet these guys at the front of the room, and in booths with big theaters, but there's also a meaningful number of people who are town for typical Vegas stuff, see the shiny lights, and talk their way into a free pass into the show because it looks cool, kind of like when they saw CES on the news.

Now, once you get away from the lower south, and before you get to the satellite trucks, it's still a pretty hardcore crowd. But there are definitely people who want to LITERALLY kick the tires of the satellite trucks. "Can I see inside?" The guys working that end of the show have got to go insane.

I don't think this influx of non- or new pros is either an accident or a bad thing. I'm just saying. Ever since people stopped wearing ties, man. It all went to crap. LOL

re: pros in general, though, there's not an enormous overlap between FCPX pros and collaborative workflow-shared storage pros, even three years along. X has other appeals and other strengths. I doubt that very few installations that have X on a network were built solely to accommodate their X-centered infrastructure. That's what it'll take to get X front and center...

...but to Bob's point that EVERY shared storage vendor supports X, I'd bet that most of 'em had it on at least one Mac in the booth, right?


[Lance Bachelder] "The only other "NLE" getting any buzz at all was Resolve 11, which I can't wait to try out..."

I think this is why Bob and others in the shared storage game were getting so many questions about Resolve. It's got an incredibly compelling collaboration story that's going to be interesting to see play out. If the editing toolset is even close to what it looks like, it could move the storage sales needle soon.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Bob Zelin was PERFECTLY NICE to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:26:43 am

My best customer question when demoing Media Composer was: "Is that the latest version of AOL?"

"Why yes it is. I was cloud editing back in 1997."

:)

Michael


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Mitch Ives
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 3:08:36 am

[Baz Leffler] "Obviously they have never experienced Bob when he really IS being HARSH!"

LOL... yes Bob can be a bit terse at times... but I always enjoy his no B.S. approach. I don't need smoke being blown, and Bob has always been a straight shooter...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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David Mathis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:29:11 am

Bob was making an observation, nothing more. I do not see this as harsh by any means.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 1:32:05 am

Agreed. You can take his advice or leave it. Bob is a wise and respected guy, but it's just one opinion. I like to make up my own mind.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Mark Raudonis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 3:01:50 am

Scott,

You want another opinion? FCP -X is the "3D" of this year's NAB…. nowhere to be found!

Mark



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 3:28:47 am

Perhaps fcpx at NAB this year, is the 4k of the NAB three years ago.

The future.

:P


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 4:28:13 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Perhaps fcpx at NAB this year, is the 4k of the NAB three years ago.

The future. "


Ugh!!!


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Charlie Austin
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 6:06:25 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Ugh!!!"

Ugh???

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 7:25:49 am

My 2 cents.

2014 was an Adobe NAB. Their ads were above the fold everywhere. They spent huge on the show. HUGE. Adobe panels, Adobe presentations, Adobe after hours presentations.

They made a big financial bet. Hopefully, it works out for them.

Apple spent virtually nothing on NAB. If I hadn't been at the private thing at the Winn on Monday night, I probably wouldn't have seen a single FCP-X player of note. That suite was packed. Stupid packed. Wall to wall uncomfortably hot packed. But the whole thing cost what Adobe probably spend on producing ONE of the bigger outdoor banners for the Convention Center.

The funny thing about Adobe's efforts was that I had one direct and one indirect weird experiences at their show events.

First anecdote: I was attending a 9am to 4pm seminar on color grading looking forward to listening to Andrea Chlebak talk about her work on Elysium - when the room was informed that we were going to take a 90 minute break in the seminar schedule so that everyone could attend a big Adobe presentation down the hall on their new tools. I figured, cool, I'll get to see a preview of their the features all laid out. So I joined the 600 or so tromping down the hall to to the big alternate room. And to my surprise, that whole presentation turned out to be a panel thing with three filmmaking guys I'd never heard of talking about how they looooved the new CC stuff. They were probably at least partly famous, just not to me. OK, fine. My bad. I expected a feature overview and got a targeted if subtle Cloud sales pitch instead. Stuff happens.

The indirect one was anecdotal. But from a trusted source. A guy I know pretty well who is a Premier Editor already attended an Adobe sponsored "after hours" thing. In the press room the next day here's what he said to me. "I felt totally ignored. I don't represent a big house who's going to buy a lot of seats or a school district or a big company, and maybe I wasn't dressed well enough, but nobody even wanted to talk to me. I walked around for 45 minutes or so, had a beer and ate some stuff ,then split."

The feeling he communicated to me was that Adobe was pushing really hard and spending really hard with one goal in mind - to drive CC adoption numbers. Period.

And hey, that's completely legit. Numbers matter in business. Tremendously. And I can't fault them for hammering the "sign them up for the cloud!" message HARD.

So if it seemed like an "Adobe NAB" this year. I think that's a fair assessment. They clearly paid BIG to make precisely that impression as a part of their business strategy.

Time will tell if it was a smart investment.

FWIW.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 4:42:19 pm

[Bill Davis] "So if it seemed like an "Adobe NAB" this year. I think that's a fair assessment. They clearly paid BIG to make precisely that impression as a part of their business strategy."

Apple hasn't officially attend NAB since 2007/2008 so I'm not surprised that there was more Adobe signage than Apple signage. With that being said, I think the observation from Bob/Tim that kicked off this thread wasn't about signage or "presence" but about what people were talking about and showing off on the floor itself.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 9:45:07 pm

[Bill Davis] " that whole presentation turned out to be a panel thing with three filmmaking guys I'd never heard of talking about how they looooved the new CC stuff."

distant observer - but you could maybe argue that adobe tried to tie everything and everyone up too close to them, to the point where they did no one at all any favours.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 12:05:00 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Ugh!!!"

Nothin'?

Not even a chuckle, a smirk, a knee slap, a "Boy, that Jeremy. I don't agree with him all the time, his posts are somewhat silly and unreadable, but he's sure a swell guy"?

Nothing, but ugh?


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 10:22:04 am

[Mark Raudonis] "You want another opinion? "

Sure enough. We all got 'em! However, like with Bob, yours is just another one and I have been around long enough to make my own.

I stopped going to NAB several years ago and now have been focusing on better learning environments like the Southeast Creative Summit (which was great) and SXSW (although SXSW is getting too large too). NAB is mainly broadcast which I do little of and care little about. What folks do when cutting reality or news has little bearing on my spot and longer-form work. MHO of course! :-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 1:24:04 pm

I saw instances of FCP X around the floor, but it seemed restricted to partner booths, like AJA. There were far more instances of Premiere Pro CC "in the wild". I also didn't see many demos of Media Composer outside of the Avid booth. I also think I saw more samples of Resolve in other booths than either FCP X or MC.

I don't think the show is just a "broadcast" show. There are plenty of folks that I ran into whose main focus is non-broadcast video (corporate, training, publishing, etc.). Shared storage is definitely of interest to these shops. The cost has come down so much that a 4-5 suite shop can easily move into a shared storage solution.

These folks also buy products like high-end cameras (RED, C300, Alexa, Amira, F55, etc.). It's also this market that might jump into 4K deliverables ahead of the broadcast or film world.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 2:18:46 pm

Funny...I went to a FCPWORKS workshop in the Wynn and Phillip Hodgetts showed off a pretty cool on-set logging tool called Lumberjack. Once you get back to the edit room you can import the logs to FCPX and it can essentially create sequences (events?) from the metadata automatically. I'm simplifying it because it looked very powerful. There were a couple other vendors there with FCPX tools.

But interesting that it was up in a room in the Wynn. I wanted to give FCPX a chance and this was one of my only chances!

As impressed as I was, that afternoon I bumped into Bob Z. and he confirmed that the chatter was all about Adobe CC and even Davinci, and NOT FCPX.

Changing editing software for companies like mine with four editors is a major leap. Yes, we can download demos etc, and I have had FCPX sitting on my machine since it came out. And every time I jump in I jump right back out because it is so painfully different. I'm the same selfish way about AfterEffects. I tried Boris and Motion and Shake and even Resolve for color correcting, and the AE interface wins me back every time. It's home and I've been living here a long time.

To have sat on one editor for as long as we have, and having had the pleasure of cutting with Final Cut Pro it's a major leap to jump to an entirely new way of cutting.

It just is.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 2:26:11 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "But interesting that it was up in a room in the Wynn. I wanted to give FCPX a chance and this was one of my only chances!"

Small vendors, like FCPworks find it very expensive to get a booth at NAB. Often that's very unproductive and not targeted anyway. Their set-up also showed shared storage working with Quantum. FWIW - the Wynn was also where Apple set up private demos for press and customers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 7:49:25 pm

I also went to the FCPWORKS demo at the Wynn - it was a pretty expensive suite for sure but cheaper than the show floor I suppose. Their demo's were impressive if you have time to set up a metadata centric workflow - I wish them the best - it's a gutsy move to create a FCPX only company right now in LA.

They were also showing Resolve and I could see that becoming a big part of their business should the new editing features pan out...

I concur with Oliver - NAB is not just for broadcasters at all - anyone involved in any area of media production will find NAB useful and a great time.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 2:41:51 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There are plenty of folks that I ran into whose main focus is non-broadcast video (corporate, training, publishing, etc.). Shared storage is definitely of interest to these shops. The cost has come down so much that a 4-5 suite shop can easily move into a shared storage solution."

My thought is that I can find out about that locally and not have to deal with the madness that is NAB. Same with cameras. So when I travel, it's to a better learning environment like that Southeast Creative Summit. And I hope there will be more FCPX/Resolve there this fall.

And NAB is really targeted at broadcasters, but there certainly is overlap. Not enough for me, however.

After you've been to Vegas 15 times, the "charm" wears off! :-)

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 2:53:54 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Apr 22, 2014 at 2:54:36 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "My thought is that I can find out about that locally and not have to deal with the madness that is NAB. Same with cameras"

I certainly agree with the sentiment that Las Vegas is a real PITA at times, I'm not sure I agree that you can get this info locally. For instance, if you are going to pull the trigger among numerous camera options that will run you $50K-$100K without a lens (Alexa, Amira, F55, EPIC, Varicam35, etc.) NAB is the best place to see them in one place and get a sense of look and feel. Those are items that generally most local resellers don't have, so you'd still end up traveling to NY or LA to someone like Abel Cine in order to evaluate the potential purchase. Then you still might not see all of them. I doubt you'd want to drop $100K based solely on internet exploration.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 3:50:54 pm

I have to agree with Oliver.

While NAB is a huge , expensive extravaganza, and Vegas can wear you out, there isn't another convention that has that much variety of gear, with knowledgable people talking about and displaying it in the US.

NAB is a really great place to kick the tires, especially for all facets of production gear, and post workflow opportunities.

While there is a lot of information on the internet, there is nothing like seeing and holding these products. These are usually big investments, and you want to be sure that you are choosing wisely.

Jeremy


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 9:11:21 pm

And if you see a picture of the Blackmagic Broadcast camera it does nothing to inform you of how friggin' heavy that thing is! It's not one, not two, but closer to three bricks.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 9:50:23 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "And if you see a picture of the Blackmagic Broadcast camera it does nothing to inform you of how friggin' heavy that thing is! It's not one, not two, but closer to three bricks."

Hasn't every camera man in history complained that without some damn "heft" you can't really hold a camera steady?

So, that's not a bug, it's a FEATURE. ; )

It's also notable that in their entire press kit, there's not a single picture of the thing being handheld.

THIS is how you're supposed to mount it I think...



(BMW and Jet optional)


ACTUALLY, I think one reason it's hefty is that according to what Dan told me, the camera is at least partially WATER cooled. (I guess the processors on-board DO generate some significant heat!)

And so it goes.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 10:20:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's also notable that in their entire press kit, there's not a single picture of the thing being handheld.

THIS is how you're supposed to mount it I think... "


To their credit, they came right out and told me that it was a tripod camera... that you can't hand hold it.

What? Don't these guys know they are supposed to tell everyone what they want to hear so they can maximize sales? His candor actually through me off... I had to process it twice to realize what he had said...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:52:39 pm

This was an NAB I was insanely proud to be in the AJA booth as the CION camera was a true shooters design - comfy on the shoulder, enough heft (10lb lighter than URSA) to steady out your shots and true 4K, not just UHD.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:59:17 am

I have to say, not having been there this year, that the CION by AJA was the one I would go for. I have a partner who plans to get one with Fuji Cabrio glass.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 4:45:10 am

Yeah experienced shooters just loved the design and balance - can't wait to get mine too!

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:29:42 pm

Wow, that is a pretty camera and very flexible. Is that $8995 number for body-only?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:35:50 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Wow, that is a pretty camera and very flexible. Is that $8995 number for body-only?"

See... If you'd have gone to NAB you would know ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 2:57:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "[Scott Witthaus] "Wow, that is a pretty camera and very flexible. Is that $8995 number for body-only?"

See... If you'd have gone to NAB you would know ;-)"


Oh snap!


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Bob Woodhead
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 8:29:41 pm

Love the Cion, but WHY didn't they put an ND wheel on the thing?? Some days I can't count the number of times during a shoot that I cycle thru ND. Now someone has to go find the ND pouches, carefully slide out the old, put in the new, confirm that's just right, carefully put the ND pouches back, and now we can continue. Instead of... click/click done.

Really, I'm interested in the "why not" of this.

"Constituo, ergo sum"

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
CMX-Quantel-Avid-Premiere-FCPX-AFX-Crayola
"What a long strange trip it's been...."


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 8:40:39 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 23, 2014 at 8:45:40 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Really, I'm interested in the "why not" of this."

Just a guess, but with the world moving toward RAW workflows - getting the exposure precisely correct at the camera is perceived as "less" important than it used to be?

Not saying this is correct thinking. Just saying that if - in post - you can salvaged perfectly good shots out of stuff that's a couple of stops over or underexposed because you have a lot more latitude than we did before - It's understandable if you push "perfect exposure" a bit farther down your "must have" list in the field.

And yes, I know that it's STILL totally possible to permanently screw up footage by getting exposure seriously wrong. And shooters will screw up and expect to pull detail out of stuff where 50% of their pixels are brick walled at 255 and wonder why the software won't "fix it."

But I still think this is a part of the reason exposure is seen as a bit less a "big deal" these days - right or wrong.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 9:10:06 pm

But RAW is still not unlimited dynamic range and you do want to bring in to sweet spot of the sensor. And while RAW does allow more flexibility in exposure, the camera can switch between RAW and other codecs where such a filter would be great to have.

Michael


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 9:18:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "Just a guess, but with the world moving toward RAW workflows - getting the exposure precisely correct at the camera is perceived as "less" important than it used to be?"

The value of RAW is overstated I think. For a lot of workflows, it creates insurmountable problems.

I think it's more that shooting is increasingly driven by LUTs that can be applied on set or location, then carried through non-destructively for tweaking in post. They're the bridge between exposure and grading...which makes them intimately tied to both.

So, it's not, "It's okay to get close enough because we're going to grade in post anyway." It's "We're going to set this up with more details than we've ever had access to before, starting with exposure but going well past it."

As a result, I don't see exposure as any less important...but it's no longer THE thing wrt setting up the picture. That is, its NATURE changes, rather than its VALUE does.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 9:41:59 pm

[Tim Wilson] "The value of RAW is overstated I think. For a lot of workflows, it creates insurmountable problems. "

Could you please engrave this in stone and set it up where everyone can see it for evermore?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo-uk.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 10:31:38 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Could you please engrave this in stone and set it up where everyone can see it for evermore?"

I actually have it tattooed across my lower back with a male stripper in a martini glass, Elvis, and a pun on REC-601 that I won't repeat here.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 11:32:08 pm

For me the value of RAW is being able to play off ISO vs noise reduction in Resolve and color temp tweaks for interesting grading looks. Extra dynamic range is a welcome bonus.

Bad exposure control or poor lighting is certainly not welcome but if something is grabbed in a hurry or the sun pops out during the interview it is nice to have head room.

Having a flattened gamma or log curves when shooting ProRes/ DnxHD is also a bonus but the basics of photography shouldn't be thrown away. Bad framing and exposure allowing for post reframing and grading is poor technique.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 11:52:05 pm

[Michael Gissing] "For me the value of RAW is being able to play off ISO vs noise reduction in Resolve and color temp tweaks for interesting grading looks. Extra dynamic range is a welcome bonus. "

I don't mean to sound down on RAW in theory. People want it for good reasons...but some people want it because they think they're supposed to, or because they've heard they should. Many people can get the dynamic range they need from hi-res ProRes and DNxHD.

With obvious exceptions. I'm just saying that there are a lot of workflows being driven by ProRes and DNxHD even out of Alexa. RAW isn't the only way to get beautiful 4:4:4:4 footage...

...which of course you know. I don't know why I even brought it up. LOL It just drives me crazy when it's treated as the Holy Grail for everyone.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 12:48:14 am

Totally fair call Tim. RAW has its place. It is a PITA for many workflows and just right for others.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 3:19:25 am

[Michael Gissing] "Totally fair call Tim. RAW has its place. It is a PITA for many workflows and just right for others."

In my humble little opinion, FCPX does a raw workflow right, at least an R3D workflow.

Red has done a nice job there, and FCPX's tools make it easy for many-a-workflow.

Color as metadata is a very very powerful tool.

Jeremy


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Tim Wilson
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 6:36:05 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "In my humble little opinion, FCPX does a raw workflow right, at least an R3D workflow."

Absolutely agreed. Its strengths for RAW workflows are one of the BEST reasons I can see for taking FCPX seriously.

There are some insane tools for color as metadata, though, that don't require RAW. That was my only point about that. I haven't finished my research, but AJA's new little LUT box looks cool, but the idea of a CDL, color decision list, that travels with the footage is a profound thing.

Pomfort LiveGrade is an amazing piece of software that I'm seeing more and more of. One workflow that I've seen is taking LOG out of the back of an Alexa, sending it through a Blackmagic HDLink, and do first-pass grading on the fly. It creates a CDL, which the colorists open in finish, and BOOM.

That's just one guy I happen to know personally who's getting it done this way. But the software is just looking for HD-SDI in. Any camera will do. From there, running ACES workflows on your laptop, even use your iPhone as a remote control. My boy is using Alexa LOG, but it also supports native LOG files for Canon, RED and others.

LiveGrade is under $500, and the pro version is under $900. The FCP and FCPX plug-ins are under $200.

Anyway, enough rambling. I also don't mean to be pimping a specific product, especially one that's not yet advertising in the COW. LOL My points being that CDLs offer big advantages over LUTs, and NONE of these advanced color workflows (including ACES) REQUIRE RAW. The tools are there to do it with any HD-SDI output and a piece of affordable software running on a MacBook Pro.

The days of miracles are upon us, friends. RAW is one of 'em, but not the only one, and maybe not even one that'll help as much as plenty of others.


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Michael Phillips
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 11:56:23 am

I should note that CDL support has been part of Media Composer since 2006 - and recently with v7 is actually part of the source side color transform so changed can be applied during post and updated as needed. But the ability to import CDL via ALE, edit and send out ASC via EDL has been there for a while. It just gets a lot more interesting with v7. I will actually be doing a Moviola webinar on this workflow Tuesday.


Michael


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 6:37:30 pm

[Tim Wilson] "There are some insane tools for color as metadata, though, that don't require RAW. That was my only point about that. I haven't finished my research, but AJA's new little LUT box looks cool, but the idea of a CDL, color decision list, that travels with the footage is a profound thing."

No doubt about it. And the nice thing about a LUT box is the easily routable signal on set.

Raw is certainly not required, you are right, but you do have a lot more control when it does come time to finish. It, of course, adds a layer of time and can be overkill.

Overkill is nothing new to production and post!

We typically shoot with flat gamma curves vs raw. On any other camera besides Red and perhaps BM Cinema/AJA CION, raw is an extra step and cost in production, and adds more time in post.

LogC and now Sony's SGamut3/slog3 still offer great options. Canon's gamma curves are still pretty baked, and the middle grey control is OK, but not as intuitive as Arri, and now Sony. It is interesting to see how all of these camera companies approach color science. This is why ACES is such a fantastic idea for this ever fragmented segment.

I also find fcpx with a LUT to offer very little hampering of performance, unlike some other NLEs. Color Grading Central's LUT Utility performs very well on a smattering of lesser powered machines.

[Tim Wilson] "Anyway, enough rambling. I also don't mean to be pimping a specific product, especially one that's not yet advertising in the COW. LOL My points being that CDLs offer big advantages over LUTs, and NONE of these advanced color workflows (including ACES) REQUIRE RAW. The tools are there to do it with any HD-SDI output and a piece of affordable software running on a MacBook Pro."

Absolutely, and in the case of DaVinci, the software might be "free"!

[Tim Wilson] "The days of miracles are upon us, friends. RAW is one of 'em, but not the only one, and maybe not even one that'll help as much as plenty of others."

There are no miracles, only science, hard work, and luck. Unless you're these guys:







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Joseph Owens
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 25, 2014 at 12:09:42 am

[Tim Wilson] "As a result, I don't see exposure as any less important...but it's no longer THE thing wrt setting up the picture. "

I don't know about that. Every sensor, tube, emulsion, whatever has its sweet spot where you want the image to live. They all have a toe/shoulder failure or rolloff and nothing is ever, ever linear. There's another thing about optical physics, which is depth of field. That depends entirely on your aperture and exposure. Unless we have z-depth focus mapping imbedded as another layer of metadata, I for one would rather see shallow focus in-camera than a bunch of piled-on blur FX.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 23, 2014 at 10:09:02 pm

[Bob Woodhead] "Really, I'm interested in the "why not" of this."

I'm going to go with $$$.


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tony west
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 12:21:06 am

[Andrew Kimery] "[Bob Woodhead] "Really, I'm interested in the "why not" of this."

I'm going to go with $$$."


I'm going with it also.

To get the price down that low you gotta cut some corners.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 2:54:15 am

[tony west] "[Andrew Kimery] "[Bob Woodhead] "Really, I'm interested in the "why not" of this."

I'm going to go with $$$."

I'm going with it also."


Like Smokey and the Bandit once said*:

I third that emotion.














*this is not a valid reference so please don't believe it


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 7:25:49 pm

CION has a built-in IR/OLPF filter built-in - the thought was that most film-style DP's would use traditional ND's in front of the lens vs. built-in ENG style ND wheel. The CION design had film shooters in mind vs. video style shooting. There may be room for internal ND's much like Alexa where there is room behind the lens for filtration.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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tony west
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 9:16:12 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "The CION design had film shooters in mind vs. video style shooting."

I don't know Lance if I buy that completely.

It has HDMI output which seems more a video need. (go into any consumer monitor rather than a high end one that only takes SDI)

But the topper for me is they have it shooting a baseball game in their ad in the workflow section.

Can't think of a more video style event than that. Or one that I would want a filter wheel less : )


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Oliver Peters
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 9:54:22 pm

[tony west] "It has HDMI output which seems more a video need. (go into any consumer monitor rather than a high end one that only takes SDI)"

Not in the 4K world. There is a lot of use of HDMI. Just depends on the spec involved. Remember, you have high-quality internal recording, so HDMI gives you a simple, universal single-cable output.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony west
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 10:03:28 pm

[Oliver Peters] "There is a lot of use of HDMI. Just depends on the spec involved."

No doubt. I like it being there, just seems like they could have tossed the filter wheel in there also, since we are talking about convenience.


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 11:57:49 pm

Who needs a filter wheel for this or the URSA - bigger cameras let you strap on the big boy toys...


I got your "FILTER WHEEL" right here - it's called an Arri SMB-1!




; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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tony west
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 25, 2014 at 1:56:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "Arri SMB-1!"


That's awesome Bill if you have time to use it.

So often we get into that run and gun situation.

Even shooting an interview inside and then b-roll of the person outside their house feeding horses.

It would be cool to have the option when you need it and I need it a lot : )


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John Godwin
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 2:52:19 pm

That guy on the dolly must be moving really fast.

Best,
John


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 3:41:36 pm

[John Godwin] "That guy on the dolly must be moving really fast."

No, the bike is moving slow!


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:30:10 pm

Actually, none of them were even in the same place...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:39:21 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:40:19 pm

I look at that original shot in the post above and think - damn, somebody's gonna have to roto that light and gaffer out of the shot.

Then I think, heck, the dolly grip better be leaning back soon to slow the move, or they're going off the tracks.

Odd how we look at the same picture and can see so many different things!

Still, it's interesting that the press kit is composed of similar HDR shots that have that HyperReal look that's been so popular for a while.

I wonder if chasing THAT look is one piece of why RAW is moving from Stills to motion?

Here's another from the same press kit to enjoy.



Tres "True Detective Nuvo Noir"

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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John Godwin
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 8:55:38 pm

Set in a dystopian future when sea level rise has almost maxed out, hence the swimmer ....

Best,
John


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Bill Davis
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 24, 2014 at 11:48:45 pm

That makes sense. And the windows must be made out of that Star Trek "transparent aluminum" since everybody inside is so blasé.

; )

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Bob Woodhead
Re: Bob Zelin wasn't too kind to X
on Apr 25, 2014 at 12:24:33 am

It's gotta be the future.... all three crew are clones.

wonder if they're on OT after 3.33 hours?


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