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Walter Soyka
Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 2:35:55 pm

The Foundry has just shown NUKE STUDIO, an all-in-one-ish product that combines NUKEX with HIERO's editorial timeline and adds real-time GPU timeline effects and background rendering.

This should be released later this year.

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/about-us/news-awards/nuke-studio/

Pricing is still TBD, but they said in the webcast that it will be an upgrade from NUKEX ($8144), and Production Collective ($9600) users get a free upgrade.

Assuming NUKE STUDIO works well, I think it will be a major competitor to Flame with a price tag relevant in the current decade.

Also buried under the avalanche of Resolve cheerleading, Digital Vision is now offering Nucoda at $2695 with a subset of their DVO tools, and with support for Tangent Element panels.

Maybe there is still a little room outside the high end of the market for realistically-priced software that doesn't fully embrace the race-to-the-bottom pricing we're seeing elsewhere?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mitch Ives
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 3:25:10 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Also buried under the avalanche of Resolve cheerleading, Digital Vision is now offering Nucoda at $2695 with a subset of their DVO tools, and with support for Tangent Element panels.

Resolve cheerleading? You don't sound happy Walter?


[Walter Soyka] "Maybe there is still a little room outside the high end of the market for realistically-priced software that doesn't fully embrace the race-to-the-bottom pricing we're seeing elsewhere?"

I don't often disagree with you Walter, and okay, I admit that having a degree in business and 40 years of experience starting and successfully running businesses may have clouded my vision, but I'd be interested in hearing your logic on how this is a problem?

The music industry thought this too, until they discovered that a billion sales at 99 cents made more money than $15 CD's. I know it's popular to hate capitalism these days, but in our industry, more money means more development resources, which means more new features. What have I missed?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Steve Connor
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 3:30:19 pm

[Mitch Ives] "[Walter Soyka] "Maybe there is still a little room outside the high end of the market for realistically-priced software that doesn't fully embrace the race-to-the-bottom pricing we're seeing elsewhere?"

I don't often disagree with you Walter, and okay, I admit that having a degree in business and 40 years of experience starting and successfully running businesses may have clouded my vision, but I'd be interested in hearing your logic on how this is a problem? "


I didn't understand this reference as well, it seems that BMD are actually developing Resolve much more than when it wasn't basically free.

Steve Connor

Class Bully


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Frank Gothmann
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 4:12:19 pm

They may be developing it much more (and I hope it's the guys from Davinici that are still there doing it), question is how stable and bug-free the outcome is. BM has not a great record in that respect, certainly with their drivers, firmware and Mediaexpress, and while I cannot speak for Davinci, I can speak about their converters and how Teranex handled things back then. Difference is night and day.
This also answers questions as to why converters from, say, Snell are more expensive (apart from the fact they they are much higher quality and motion compensated even in their mid-range products which are still clocking at around 25k). You have one person on the phone, who actually calls back, knows you by name, keeps track and if need be have someone write a custom patch in a day or two and/or get in the car and drive down to sort at problem out.
There are certain areas where you definitely get what you pay for. Sometimes that level of support, quality and reliability isn't paramount, but when it is and you don't get it you are f**cked despite all the money you have saved.

------
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Chris Kenny
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 2:36:09 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "They may be developing it much more (and I hope it's the guys from Davinici that are still there doing it), question is how stable and bug-free the outcome is."

My experience with software has been that the more obscure a product is, the flakier it tends to be. The extreme case of this is that software developed for in-house 'enterprise' use is notoriously terrible, but the same phenomenon applies in less extreme cases as well. In general, a larger user base means more bugs are discovered more quickly, and if moving more copies at a lower price leads to higher total revenue (which is likely the case with Resolve, particularly counting all the video interfaces, etc. it helps to sell) then there are also more resources available to fix those bugs.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:27:52 pm

[Chris Kenny] "My experience with software has been that the more obscure a product is, the flakier it tends to be."

Having used some obscure products, I'd agree. I'd add that there tend to be fewer acceptable workarounds for flakiness with obscure products.

On the flipside, you can often get custom builds to solve specific problems.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 4:28:04 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I don't often disagree with you Walter"

That's ok, I'm bound to be wrong sometime!


[Mitch Ives] "I admit that having a degree in business and 40 years of experience starting and successfully running businesses may have clouded my vision, but I'd be interested in hearing your logic on how this is a problem? "

In your business experience, do you think it'd be possible for a new entrant to develop and bring a full-featured color corrector and NLE to market -- and not charge a dime for it?


[Mitch Ives] "he music industry thought this too, until they discovered that a billion sales at 99 cents made more money than $15 CD's. I know it's popular to hate capitalism these days, but in our industry, more money means more development resources, which means more new features. What have I missed?"

I don't think anyone who knows me would suggest I hate capitalism! I'm actually looking at this from a capitalist perspective, as a consumer of these tools.

In rooting for a free product whose development is subsidized by the sale of something else, you are rooting for a product with absolutely zero accountability to its users (note I didn't say customers) in the market. I guess if they're ever dissatisfied, at least they can get their money back.

Not all disruption is positive, and I'm not sure that free closed-source software is a good thing for this industry in the long term. Resolve's price tag, or lack thereof, could be a pretty strong disincentive for other companies to invest the resources necessary to develop or maintain a competitive product.

Underpriced and free products devalue the work of the developers who build the tools we need to do our jobs. If the industry that supplies us becomes toxic, how healthy will our industry really be long term?

Resolve Lite for free makes me think of the proverbial kid with a camera that everyone here has been complaining about, living in his parents' basement, who shoots with the 5D his parents bought him and charges $100/day. Except this time, WE are the clients excited about this new, low cost provider without understanding how the price is artificially and unsustainably depressed, and the kid is an ace DP showing up for free with a RED or Alexa and a full grip truck.

Let me be very clear: Resolve is a great product. I bought my license immediately upon its relaunch, and the BMD Resolve team has done an amazing job with it since they acquired it.

I'm not anti-Resolve, and I'm not calling for any kind of action. I am just concerned that this business model -- much like Apple's, where some really good software may be subsidized by unrelated hardware sold to different customers -- MAY be negative for our industry in the long term by discouraging competitive development.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:04:27 pm

Underpriced and free products devalue the work of the developers who build the tools we need to do our jobs. If the industry that supplies us becomes toxic, how healthy will our industry really be long term?

if it kills cc as is i am all for it.

ricardo marty


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:13:56 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Underpriced and free products devalue the work of the developers who build the tools we need to do our jobs. If the industry that supplies us becomes toxic, how healthy will our industry really be long term?"

[Ricardo Marty] "if it kills cc as is i am all for it."

Ironically, I think that the move toward subscription software (which is happening across all industries) is partially in response to today's dollar App Store mentality about software, as well as the software industry's inability to articulate how much effort is required to simply maintain complex software in this era of ever-accelerating technology.

Put more directly, I think that companies are exploring the idea that in the face of $0 competitors, $50 monthly may be more attractive to consumers than $3000 upfront.

But really, NUKE STUDIO looks awesome. Is anyone else interested? You can show your support for perpetual licenses by buying products from The Foundry!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ricardo Marty
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 8:17:10 pm

you forget that bmd has a paid version for better efficiency ant cast 1k.
resolve lite is more directed at a different market.
1k is not bad i would pay more if it had more.

i would not buy the hiero app that you try to slap me with because. i have no need for such tool nor for smoke.

ricardo marty


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:11:41 pm

Not as anti-competitive as what Adobe has done with AE/Premiere and Photoshop, et al. A no exit strategy for tools that are close to monopolistic at this point that quit working when you quit paying. In my position, if it weren't for FCPX, Motion, and it appears Resolve 11, I'm not sure where a smaller operation would go. If the software isn't good, no one will buy the hardware, and you always have to own SOMEONE's hardware. Not that I don't see your point Walter, I just see Adobe as more of the problem in the marketplace currently. No one else affects so many businesses/artists at so many levels.

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:47:08 pm

[Mitch Ives] "The music industry thought this too, until they discovered that a billion sales at 99 cents made more money than $15 CD's. I know it's popular to hate capitalism these days, but in our industry, more money means more development resources, which means more new features. What have I missed?"

Not to completely derail this thread, but the music industry isn't a very good example. Their revenue is down 50% from a decade ago, digital sales are plateauing as market saturation is reached, digital albums have only bested CD sales four times (ever) even though CD sales have been dropping like a rock for nearly 15 years and streaming services (Spotify, Pandora, etc.,) are struggling to be profitable. The perceived monetary value of music has been greatly devalued and it will likely never go back up.

With that, I understand Walter's concern about software going the same way and what it means for software companies, what it means for competition and what it means for end users. While in the short term what BM is doing with Resolve is awesome for customers, is it generating something unsustainable that will be bad for customers in the long run?

I think a better example than the music industry is the PC industry. Dell triggered a race to the bottom in the computer market which drove prices down (good short term for consumers) but also caused a lot of market consolidation as companies buckled due to the unsustainable price wars. Are consumers better off without companies IBM, Compaq or a strong HP? Or were those companies on the outs anyway and Dell just accelerated the inevitable?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 6:00:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Not to completely derail this thread"

I thought about putting my little rant in a post called "Resolve wins the race to the bottom?" as a separate discussion. Tim probably would have appreciated the page views!

I'm just bummed no one wants to talk about NUKE STUDIO. I know the word "gamechanger" is overused, but I think it actually applies here!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:56:08 pm

I respectfully disagree, Jim.

There are a number of anti-CC posters here regularly claiming millions of CS customers who refuse to upgrade to CC. If true, that suggests that Adobe doesn't really have this singular, get-away-with-anything monopolistic control over the industry.

I think Adobe's subscription-only move could actually stoke competition. If there are so many customers so upset with this direction, isn't that's an enormous market opportunity for competitors to profitably fill with perpetually-licensed products?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Jim Wiseman
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 6:17:17 pm

There is unquestionably an opportunity for competition, and it is coming in the form of Resolve, FCPX, Motion, Nuke and others you have mentioned on the NLE (with some compositing) front. Real competitors to AE, and Photoshop, not so much, not likely at the prices we have been used to when perpetual upgrades were a possibility. And certainly not for a while. Of course Adobe has to make money. But the current model seems heavy handed, at best. It would seem if their products are that good they could make up for exits/buyouts with new users. FCP X seems to be catching on from comments I have heard from educators, and they are the future. Whether younger editors stick with it is anyone's guess.

Not all of us can afford $10,000 software packages, and I speak as the former Avid dealer in Hawaii, when systems ran $50-125k in 1990's dollars. Also sold Media 100 which ran up to about $50k loaded. Video creativity was limited to very few in those days. (But it was a good time to be selling Avids!) Adobe seems to be headed toward a model of fewer and fewer higher end users with CC. We will see how it works out when all the promos expire and they have some true competition. And BTW, I actually like aspects of the hardware and software coming from the same company. You know who to praise and who to blame. We live in interesting times...

Jim Wiseman
Sony PMW-EX1, Pana AJ-D810 DVCPro, DVX-100, Nikon D7000, Final Cut Pro X 10.1.1, Final Cut Studio 2 and 3, Media 100 Suite 2.1.5, Premiere Pro CS 5.5 and 6.0, AJA ioHD, AJA Kona LHi, Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K, Avid MC, 2013 Mac Pro Hexacore, 1 TB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2-D500: 2012 Hexacore MacPro 3.33 Ghz 24Gb RAM GTX-285 120GB SSD, Macbook Pro 17" 2011 2.2 Ghz Quadcore i7 16GB RAM 250GB SSD


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:57:23 pm

[Walter Soyka] "... do you think it'd be possible for a new entrant to develop and bring a full-featured color corrector and NLE to market -- and not charge a dime for it?"

Walter,

One way to look at is that Blackmagic are the new entrant - and they've developed and brought a full-featured NLE to market - with a free tier.

It seems to me that this is one way of achieving it, and with different models from Apple, Adobe, Avid, Blackmagic, Lightworks, etc. etc. etc. it's hard to say that there's danger of one way of doing things crowding out others.

Franz.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 6:10:32 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "One way to look at is that Blackmagic are the new entrant - and they've developed and brought a full-featured NLE to market - with a free tier."

Of course I did not qualify this statement enough. BMD could not have done this without subsidizing it with earnings from elsewhere in their portfolio.


[Franz Bieberkopf] "It seems to me that this is one way of achieving it, and with different models from Apple, Adobe, Avid, Blackmagic, Lightworks, etc. etc. etc. it's hard to say that there's danger of one way of doing things crowding out others."

I'm not arguing that Resolve wiping out the editorial market is inevitable -- just pointing out that BMD is capable of destabilizing the market by sloshing around some revenue from ancillary markets. Not everyone competing in the space enjoys this luxury -- small developers especially -- and it may (or may not!) be negative in the long run for the industry.

I want the vendors I rely upon to thrive. I think it's ultimately important for my own success.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:19:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I'm not arguing that Resolve wiping out the editorial market is inevitable -- just pointing out that BMD is capable of destabilizing the market by sloshing around some revenue from ancillary markets. Not everyone competing in the space enjoys this luxury -- small developers especially -- and it may (or may not!) be negative in the long run for the industry."

Buying BMD's I/O hardware is basically a requirement for using Resolve Lite for serious grading/editing. Without this, you can't monitor a full-screen image while simultaneously interacting with the UI. As far as I can tell (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) this is still true in Resolve 11; the new dual-screen UI can split bins/scopes to one screen and viewers/timeline to another, but you still can't monitor full screen while interacting with the timeline unless you have BMD I/O hardware.

This means that in practice Resolve Lite is 'free' as a transcoding and media management tool, but if you want a useful grading or editing tool, it still costs money.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:26:21 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Buying BMD's I/O hardware is basically a requirement for using Resolve Lite for serious grading/editing... This means that in practice Resolve Lite is 'free' as a transcoding and media management tool, but if you want a useful grading or editing tool, it still costs money."

I agree that I/O hardware is necessary with respect to "serious" grading (are we saying serious now because it's less incendiary than professional?) -- but I think there's a lot of serious editorial that does not need I/O in 2014.

I also think we are not that far away from "semi-serious" grading happening under a display LUT, obviating the need for video I/O. BMD should start making display probes.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:39:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I agree that I/O hardware is necessary with respect to "serious" grading (are we saying serious now because it's less incendiary than professional?) -- but I think there's a lot of serious editorial that does not need I/O in 2014.

I also think we are not that far away from "semi-serious" grading happening under a display LUT, obviating the need for video I/O."


I agree that the technical benefits of 'real' video I/O over GUI display monitoring are receding (though it would be nice if Apple would finally enable 10-bit output), but again, in Resolve, it's not just about those technical benefits. You cannot display your program image full screen on one GUI display while interacting with the application on another display. The only way to get a full-screen program view while interacting with the UI is to buy BMD hardware. I think that's a pretty critical capability.

[Walter Soyka] "BMD should start making display probes."

Yeah, they could easily adapt the OEM version of the i1Display Pro like many other vendors do (HP with the Dreamcolor probe, SpectraCal with the C6) and have a whole calibration system built-into Resolve rather than just the test pattern generator it presently has. It's a good idea.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:56:59 pm

[Chris Kenny] "Buying BMD's I/O hardware is basically a requirement for using Resolve Lite for serious grading/editing."

I think you overestimate how many people downloading Resolve Lite plan on using it with a 'proper setup'. It seems like almost a weekly occurrence for someone to ask how to balance their computer monitor for accurate video monitoring or which Dell monitor they should buy to use for color grading. Apple Color, Resolve Lite, Magic Bullet Looks or Colorista... same questions, different forums. "It's just for the web..." "My budget is only $600..." "Stop being an elitist snob in your ivory tower and just tell me how to make my five year old Acer computer monitor color accurate!"


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Mitch Ives
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 7:42:45 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In your business experience, do you think it'd be possible for a new entrant to develop and bring a full-featured color corrector and NLE to market -- and not charge a dime for it?"

Not on a permanent basis. Personally, I don't expect them to give away for free forever (personally I'm buying it). Having said that, what about Apple buying Color and then including it for free? Obviously, they thought the good will and increased capability would sell more hardware. What if BMD is doing that short term?

In the course of watching the R11 demo, I was exposed to their 4K Thunderbolt rack unit as well as their rack mount dual LCD monitor, which interestingly was being used to display a waveform and vectorscope. I didn't know you could use that dual monitor for that? Now I'm interested in their hardware... I wasn't when I arrived in the booth. How's that for creative marketing?




[Walter Soyka] "I don't think anyone who knows me would suggest I hate capitalism! I'm actually looking at this from a capitalist perspective, as a consumer of these tools.

In rooting for a free product whose development is subsidized by the sale of something else, you are rooting for a product with absolutely zero accountability to its users (note I didn't say customers) in the market. I guess if they're ever dissatisfied, at least they can get their money back."


I wasn't suggesting that... don't know you well enough for that... probably wouldn't anyway.

FWIW, both myself and the guy I was with are skipping the free version and buying it. I suspect a lot of people will, in order to reward a positive behavior and to get faster development.



[Walter Soyka] "Resolve's price tag, or lack thereof, could be a pretty strong disincentive for other companies to invest the resources necessary to develop or maintain a competitive product.

Underpriced and free products devalue the work of the developers who build the tools we need to do our jobs. If the industry that supplies us becomes toxic, how healthy will our industry really be long term?"


That's a big stretch. Who says BMD isn't thinking long-term. This is a big boy game and requires lots of money... ask Avid. I could make the same argument about FCP X, except small developers are making a fortune making plugins for it. Why not the same with R11? It's using OpenFX... they were showing the Sapphire plugins in every demo. Isn't that not only helping the small developer, but actually building an entire eco-system for them?



[Walter Soyka] "Resolve Lite for free makes me think of the proverbial kid with a camera that everyone here has been complaining about, living in his parents' basement, who shoots with the 5D his parents bought him and charges $100/day. Except this time, WE are the clients excited about this new, low cost provider without understanding how the price is artificially and unsustainably depressed, and the kid is an ace DP showing up for free with a RED or Alexa and a full grip truck."

Walter... as a highly talented individual, I know you aren't discounting the skill involved in properly learning and mastering it? As to your second point, as Bill Davis has pointed out on many occasions, it's too late to get that Genie back in the bottle. In fact, Apple has done more to foster this than anyone else IMO.



[Walter Soyka] "Let me be very clear: Resolve is a great product. I bought my license immediately upon its relaunch, and the BMD Resolve team has done an amazing job with it since they acquired it.

I'm not anti-Resolve, and I'm not calling for any kind of action. I am just concerned that this business model -- much like Apple's, where some really good software may be subsidized by unrelated hardware sold to different customers -- MAY be negative for our industry in the long term by discouraging competitive development."


I get that... I thought we were exchanging ideas and viewpoints? As for your last point, it's a valid one. I get pissed every day because as a society I'm subsidizing the deadbeats out there every day. And you know, that might be okay if they showed the slightest bit of gratitude... :-)

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 8:15:20 pm

[Mitch Ives] "Personally, I don't expect them to give away for free forever (personally I'm buying it). "

Why not? Resolve Lite has been free for years. They've actually gone the other way, removing key restrictions. It used to only work on HD resolutions and support 2 nodes per grade. Now it's pretty much fully-featured, except for noise reduction and stereo?


[Mitch Ives] "Having said that, what about Apple buying Color and then including it for free?"

The key difference is Resolve Lite is absolutely free for anyone to download and use, whether you're a BMD customer or not. Color was only "free" in the $1000 FCP Studio bundle.


[Mitch Ives] "In the course of watching the R11 demo, I was exposed to their 4K Thunderbolt rack unit as well as their rack mount dual LCD monitor, which interestingly was being used to display a waveform and vectorscope. I didn't know you could use that dual monitor for that? Now I'm interested in their hardware... I wasn't when I arrived in the booth. How's that for creative marketing?"

No doubt this is exactly the plan. Use the software as a loss leader to sell hardware.

It is creative marketing, and I'm sure it's good business for BMD.

But if it puts some hurt on other developers in this space that BMD is not actually trying to conduct a business in, that's neutral for BMD and bad for us as users.


[Mitch Ives] "Who says BMD isn't thinking long-term. This is a big boy game and requires lots of money... ask Avid."

I'm sure BMD is thinking long-term, but they're thinking about THEIR long-term. I'm thinking about mine. Say Avid decides they can't compete with free Resolve NLE and pulls software-only Media Composer off the market, retreating to ISIS and Everywhere only (they won't do this, but humor me). Does that make me better or worse off?


[Mitch Ives] "I could make the same argument about FCP X, except small developers are making a fortune making plugins for it."

Given the ponderously low price for most effects and the smaller-than-expected sales of FCP X, I'm not sure that "making a fortune" is a good description of what developers are experiencing.


[Mitch Ives] "It's using OpenFX... they were showing the Sapphire plugins in every demo. Isn't that not only helping the small developer, but actually building an entire eco-system for them?"

Sure, a new host would be a plus for plugin developers. I would like to see more OFX on the desktop, anyway.

But I'll borrow an analogy from Shawn Miller [link]. What if BMD buys the Boujou 3D tracker and bundles it for free in Resolve Lite 12? Lights out for Syntheyes?

Small developers can make major contributions that are not just plugins for other people's hosts, but only if there's a market that appropriately values their contributions.


[Mitch Ives] "Walter... as a highly talented individual, I know you aren't discounting the skill involved in properly learning and mastering it? As to your second point, as Bill Davis has pointed out on many occasions, it's too late to get that Genie back in the bottle. In fact, Apple has done more to foster this than anyone else IMO."

This has nothing to do with the use of Resolve, which of course requires skill that is not included in the box or with the download.

This has everything to do with the degree to which awesome products like Resolve Lite being given away for free poisons the development market that supports our industry. I don't know what that degree will be, but I'd rather see the industry trending toward healthy margins that keep the developers cranking out new stuff (even though it will cost me more) than low margins that force me to settle for less quality or variety in my choice of tools. I'm not saying Resolve Lite is going to ruin the industry, it just gives me a little pause, wondering if we're collectively going down a healthy and sustainable path.


[Mitch Ives] "I get that... I thought we were exchanging ideas and viewpoints?"

I think we are? I didn't mean any offense. I save that for the other debate forum!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 6:19:39 pm

[Mitch Ives] "I know it's popular to hate capitalism these days"

Actually it used to be much more popular to hate capitalism back in the 30's. Today capitalism is like an aging rock star waiting for a reality series; it's a little long in the tooth, it's on it's third facelift, but the fans keep coming out to see the same old act for fear of trying something new.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Shawn Miller
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 7:36:40 pm

[Walter Soyka] "The Foundry has just shown NUKE STUDIO, an all-in-one-ish product that combines NUKEX with HIERO's editorial timeline and adds real-time GPU timeline effects and background rendering.

This should be released later this year.

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/about-us/news-awards/nuke-studio/

Pricing is still TBD, but they said in the webcast that it will be an upgrade from NUKEX ($8144), and Production Collective ($9600) users get a free upgrade.

Assuming NUKE STUDIO works well, I think it will be a major competitor to Flame with a price tag relevant in the current decade."


Just took a look at the demo... wow! I would NEVER have imagined that a tool like this could be offered for ~$10k. I'm curious to know what the folks at Autodesk think about this.

Shawn



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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 8:39:59 pm
Last Edited By Gustavo Bermudas on Apr 10, 2014 at 8:42:15 pm

I'm sure Blackmagic not only hurts developers, but it also hurt a lot of post houses that use Resolve as well (and paid for it), prices has gone down incredibly low for post services, and I remember a few years ago we were eager to buy new stuff that came out, now we're like "do I really need this?"
I really love Resolve to death, but I despise Blackmagic for what they're doing, and right now we're tied to it because there are no other options, why should I invest in a 6 figure system when clients want to pay a figure less?


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David Mathis
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 9:14:49 pm

I remember when Final Cut Pro was $999 and the same price was for Cinema Tools, then later on, these products began to become in a package. Before too long Motion and Color made its way into Final Cut Studio, before that Color was know as Final Touch, which was more expensive. I am not sure how disruptive Black Magic Design really is. They make their money off hardware as does Apple, so they can sell software for next to nothing. I can see how someone who spent 6 figures on a system would feel. To me it is a matter of perspective depending on when one entered the game and what the price of admission was at that time. My two cents, whatever it is worth.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 10, 2014 at 10:45:45 pm
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Apr 10, 2014 at 10:55:20 pm

[David Mathis] "They make their money off hardware as does Apple, so they can sell software for next to nothing. I can see how someone who spent 6 figures on a system would feel. To me it is a matter of perspective depending on when one entered the game and what the price of admission was at that time. My two cents, whatever it is worth.
"


What's weird is there's free, then $995, then $29,995.

It seems to me, if BMD wanted to push hardware, they'd bundle the $995 version with more hardware. Or have a $1,295 version, or something between 1 and 30.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 12:29:50 am

[Walter Soyka] "The Foundry has just shown NUKE STUDIO, an all-in-one-ish product that combines NUKEX with HIERO's editorial timeline and adds real-time GPU timeline effects and background rendering.

This is big for VFX people. Such power at a cheap price point. If I need proper VFX work done I always send it to a pro. I don't try to do a job that is outside my skills base and the worth every penny to leverage such expertise. So being cheaper actually makes it more likely I will use a pro as their cost base has come down but not the concept of paying people properly for talent and expertise. I value my time too much to do a poor job on After Effects just because I have it but can't drive it like a pro.

As a colorist and sound post person I spend more on my studios, IT infastructure, monitoring (picture and sound) and software than most editors so the price point on Resolve whilst it is helpful it is not making such a huge difference. It has meant my hourly rate has been stable for 20 years although I long ago moved to a subscription style of charging a price based on program duration. So cheaper faster hardware plus cheaper more powerful software has simply allowed me to spend less on more constant upgrading. Win win for clients and me. I would argue that the product is better as the tools are better and I actually have less time pressure on working.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 12:49:23 am

[Michael Gissing] "This is big for VFX people. Such power at a cheap price point. If I need proper VFX work done I always send it to a pro. I don't try to do a job that is outside my skills base and the worth every penny to leverage such expertise. So being cheaper actually makes it more likely I will use a pro as their cost base has come down but not the concept of paying people properly for talent and expertise. I value my time too much to do a poor job on After Effects just because I have it but can't drive it like a pro."


Makes sense. At this price point, would you consider building a bay for NukeX Studio and 'hiring in' VFX/finishing work? I mean, for less than $15k you have a more powerful VFX/finishing capability than Flame or Inferno, and NukeX probably has a much bigger talent pool to draw from... I think I've only ever met two Inferno operators in my life. Something to consider, maybe?

Shawn



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Michael Gissing
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 1:24:35 pm

Shawn, I am too small to set up a room for VFX. I sub contract to other freelancers who have their own setup. I don't have enough demand to justify this. I am excited about Resolve as a finishing tool but I am not needing advanced compositing.


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Shawn Miller
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 6:07:52 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Shawn, I am too small to set up a room for VFX. I sub contract to other freelancers who have their own setup. I don't have enough demand to justify this. I am excited about Resolve as a finishing tool but I am not needing advanced compositing."

Ah, I see. For some reason, I thought you ran a smallish (~10 person) post house.

I'm also excited about Resolve 11, I've been learning and using 9 and 10 for about a year now, and I really like it. NukeX Studio looks like an amazing opportunity for small houses. It will be interesting to see if its price point encourages the growth of more boutique VFX/finishing shops.

Shawn



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Chris Kenny
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 12, 2014 at 12:00:45 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "I'm sure Blackmagic not only hurts developers, but it also hurt a lot of post houses that use Resolve as well (and paid for it), prices has gone down incredibly low for post services, and I remember a few years ago we were eager to buy new stuff that came out, now we're like "do I really need this?"
I really love Resolve to death, but I despise Blackmagic for what they're doing, and right now we're tied to it because there are no other options, why should I invest in a 6 figure system when clients want to pay a figure less?"


Would you rather have post production facilities competing on the basis of how much capital they have access to, or competing on the basis of efficiency and talent? Expensive tools give you the former. Cheap give you the latter. It seems like when evaluating the effects of Resolve's pricing you're counting the harm done to long-established high-cost facilities, but not counting the benefits reaped by new facilities (e.g. my company), by clients, or by consumers who ultimately get access to more and better content.

Anyway, there are still fairly expensive things clients will pay more for. Grading off of a cinema projector in a DI theater instead of crowding around a 24" monitor in some guy's basement, for instance. Setting up a serious room can still run to six figures even with Resolve at $995.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 13, 2014 at 9:36:21 pm

Ideally they should compete about talent, however, Bkackmagic allowed color grading to become commoditized, so now lots of post houses, big and medium sized, are competing with price, and talent only considered as a secondary factor. This is how I noticed clients are approaching it lately.
Also, big companies are coming down in pricing competing with new boutiques, as a result the mid post market is going, if it's not already getting squezed with the lower end. So it seems, like in this society, the "middle" is going away.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:57:48 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Just took a look at the demo... wow! I would NEVER have imagined that a tool like this could be offered for ~$10k. I'm curious to know what the folks at Autodesk think about this."

HIERO has reportedly been buggy so far -- but The Foundry moves fast, and I expect that since they've pretty well saturated single-shot comp, the fact that this opens a new market to them would get it plenty of development attention.

Autodesk is now trying to put some separation between Smoke and Flame. Smoke Advanced (the Linux version) is no more; it's now Flame Assist. Smoke is now a Mac-only product. Going forward after this release, future versions of Smoke will be subscription-only, will not support sparks, and will no longer be Flame-compatible.

Meanwhile, Autodesk has done a lot of work on Flame in the past few releases, making really fundamental changes (and major improvements) to the architecture and workflow. With Autodesk's NAB marketing moves, it seems as though they are looking to keep Flame and Flame Premium as very premium products.

The lack of any offering between Smoke and Flame might be opening a big door for NUKE STUDIO.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 5:19:56 pm
Last Edited By Gustavo Bermudas on Apr 11, 2014 at 5:30:08 pm

I have been wondering a lot, why Autodesk did what they did with Smoke this year, and if I connect all the dots the only thing that starts making sense, is that Smoke may suffer the same luck as Softimage in the near future.

Here's why, I have been visiting the Flame forums in the Autodesk area for a while, mostly because I wanted to get some insight on what was going on there, and the thing I noticed is that there was some anger or frustration by experienced Flame users with Smoke for Mac, specially the new changes happening in Flame that took the timeline approach from Smoke 2013, lots of people complaining that Flame is going to be Smoke and its users are going to be now Flame artist too, over saturate the market, and all that.

So with the new direction of separating Flame from Smoke, you can see that seems to be a response to that, and if Autodesk Flame has its user base, on maintenance subscription, that keeps R&D running and profitable, they create a symbiosis, they protect each other, there's no need to expand the market, just protect it and keep it healthy.

Now if you remember that Smoke for Mac was introduced as an online editor with compositing capabilities targeting FCP7 users, and also later last year there was a subtle nod at an alternative to paying subscription to Adobe, why suddenly adopt subscription at 3X the price of Adobe's annual subscription? It seems counter-intuitive, and I don't think the Autodesk guys are that out of touch with what's going on in today's post production market, this move doesn't seem interested in making Smoke succeed, it seems like a planned end of shelf life, or at least creating a cause.

There was a big silence from Smoke for a year and half, and the people that paid their subscription fee didn't get the update for last year, that's obviously the reason they're providing 2015 as a perpetual license to all of those who own a subscription, they're fulfilling their contract obligation.

I hope I'm wrong with this, and I hope that Autodesk offer permanent licensing options along with subscription ones, and they can continue to develop Smoke further for many years, but what I saw at NAB 2014 with Autodesk Smoke , and Autodesk history of discontinuing software, like recently they did with Softimage, raised more questions than answers.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 11, 2014 at 10:31:41 pm

I sat through the demo and was very impressed.


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David Mathis
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 13, 2014 at 7:33:49 pm

Nice to see another low cost color grading and finishing option available with Nucoda. Do you know off hand what editing capabilities it has? How well does it interact with Final Cut Pro X and what about plug-in support?


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Mid-market NAB happenings
on Apr 13, 2014 at 9:43:21 pm

Check liftgammagain.com, it has been talked extensive over there


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