FORUMS: list search recent posts

And sometimes NO editing is necessary.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bill Davis
And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 4, 2014 at 7:52:05 pm

I keep saying that the universe of video isn't what it used to be - and that if any of us succumb to the temptation of thinking of "video" exclusively in terms of Network TV or Hollywood Movies, or whatever the type of work WE do as individuals - we risk not noticing how others who aren't stuck in those particular forms are finding ways to extend what video actually can be.

A case in point from a link I got from my niece in San Francisco.

Mesmerizing.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=740746119303080

Enjoy.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Paul Dickin
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 4, 2014 at 9:42:00 pm
Last Edited By Paul Dickin on Mar 4, 2014 at 10:21:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "...sometimes NO editing is necessary."
Hmmm. Nice, but no cigar ;)
Quote end credit: "Animator : Seiya Ishii , Nobuyuki Hanabusa"
So a TON of particle generation and motion tracking...

But, as you say, a great dance production :)

Edit:
Quote:
"Apparently according to Hanabusa, he does it by projection onto a screen, perfecting alignment with the dancers through repeated practice."
So the compositing is done before the dancing - 2 pass 'editing/no editing' ;-)

Lots of other stuff on his YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/papanda87


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 4, 2014 at 10:48:22 pm

I didn't mean that nothing - music, projection, concept were created without editing, but rather that the performance was presented as a cohesive unit rather than an assembly of elements. The sublime tradition of the stage competing and merging with the traditions of broadcast.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


Shawn Miller
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 4, 2014 at 11:19:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "I didn't mean that nothing - music, projection, concept were created without editing, but rather that the performance was presented as a cohesive unit rather than an assembly of elements. The sublime tradition of the stage competing and merging with the traditions of broadcast."

Well, being a fan of dance, live performance and animation, I thought it was very cool. :-)

Shawn



Return to posts index

Andrew Kimery
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 12:32:21 am

I'm not seeing anything mind blowing about a single, uncut angle of a dance piece but maybe my head's just not in the appropriate place right now.

But I still feel like contributing so, as anyone seen the movie Timecode? Feature film shot in one take on four HD cameras (each on a different character/story branch) presented in a quad split and they use the audio mix to guide the audience between the frames. Movie itself isn't very good but the concept is interesting.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0220100/?ref_=nm_knf_i3


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 4:03:00 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "as anyone seen the movie Timecode?"

And there is always Rope.


Return to posts index


Franz Bieberkopf
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 6:42:21 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "... has anyone seen the movie Timecode?"
[Chris Harlan] "And there is always Rope."

... and, of course, Russian Ark:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318034/combined

... and Wavelength:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength_%281967_film%29
(though it contains edits)

Franz.


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 7:38:22 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Russian Ark:"

Russian Ark is a trip, though I confess that I've never been able to do anything other than make myself skim through it.

And if we're going to go whole hog on this, lets not forget Warhol's Sleep and Empire.

I truly enjoyed the performance Bill linked to. I just think its a hoot to think of long one camera takes as anything"new."


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 7:52:21 pm

I listened to a 90 minute talk mike figgis gave at the Guardian open weekend - he spoke quite a bit about putting that together - compared it to scoring music more than editing. Tragically I completely forget half the detail - but he is an extremely interesting dude.

he was scandalously indiscreet about hollywood too. Had some hilarious stories about hollywood producers and richard gere.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index


Phil Hoppes
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 1:27:40 pm

I don't believe there is any motion tracking at all. This is a live performance not a slick editing composition. Watch it again. There are a few slight but noticeable miss-tracks between the dancers and light. Clearly, the animation was done before, I'm guessing in concert with a choreographer. The light animation is complete and the dancers must learn their moves to go in sync with the animation.

IMHO it is quite a stunning work of art. It never ceases to amaze me the imagination of what people can come up with. Truly novel.

Thanks for posting Bill.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 1:48:29 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "I don't believe there is any motion tracking at all. This is a live performance not a slick editing composition. Watch it again. There are a few slight but noticeable miss-tracks between the dancers and light. Clearly, the animation was done before, I'm guessing in concert with a choreographer. The light animation is complete and the dancers must learn their moves to go in sync with the animation."

I suspect the reverse is true. I'd suppose that the choreographer had a vision for the dance and the animation -- specific requests as to what the visuals for each movement should be.

If I animated this project, I would have wanted motion capture, or at least reference video of the dance to animate over (and I would have used tracking extensively here). To do this from scratch, animation first, you'd have to rig a human body and basically perform all the choreography in animation -- no easy task.

As you say, it would be necessary for the dancers to be precise as they repeated the performance, but that is what good dancers do.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Phil Hoppes
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 3:03:23 pm

No it is a live performance. There is a link just a few lines below where someone has a link to a similar performance that was done at the TED conference.

http://tinyurl.com/k3azadz

There is even a name for it. It is called Quixotic Fusion.


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 3:41:14 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "No it is a live performance. "

I understand that it's live performance. It's live dance with projected visuals, not recorded dance with compositing visuals.

I've worked on few of these integrated dance/visual pieces myself, and we always pre-produced the animations.

Fr one of the complexity shown here, where points and shapes track the dancers' movements throughout (much harder than just creating elements that the dancers occasionally interact with), I think the animation follows the dance, not the other way around. For production, I'd want mocap or at least reference video to work from. The slick composition happens up front, then you take away the reference and the projection and scrim handles the "compositing" in real time.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Phil Hoppes
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 3:48:33 pm

I never said that the animation is live. I do animation for a living. Seeing what is there I believe it has to have been pre-produced but the dancers are doing a live production with the animation projected over. They have obviously worked very hard to learn their moves so to be in sync with the animated overlay. As I said previously, it would not surprise me too that the animation was designed in conjunction with a choreographer.

All that being said we are diverging hugely from the intent of the original post. It is a very beautiful production. Quite artistic and a very nice blend of old school (dance) with new school (light show). For me it has a very nice esthetic quality and is quite engaging.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 4:26:44 pm

[Phil Hoppes] " As I said previously, it would not surprise me too that the animation was designed in conjunction with a choreographer."

Yes, our chicken-and-egg diversion aside, certainly. This is creatively one truly "multi-media" endeavor.


[Phil Hoppes] "All that being said we are diverging hugely from the intent of the original post. It is a very beautiful production. Quite artistic and a very nice blend of old school (dance) with new school (light show). For me it has a very nice esthetic quality and is quite engaging."

Indeed. To Bill's point, the world is not sixteen by nine. There is motion content all around us, not just on TV, or the web, or our tablets.

An enormous amount of motion work never passes an editor at all.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index


Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 8:55:35 pm

he said trying to have a go: it looks like there is maybe plexus there for the elastic line linking stuff? and a whackton of trapcode? i thought some bits could be form? the echo line repeats on two minutes going into fractal distortion was the bit tasty. feels like there was a final effects lens going on top of that after for a bit?
actually - after booting AE up - I haven't used lens in ages. you forget how gorgeous it is. Am I mad - why is the CC lens version limited to 100+ convergence max? didn't FE lens allow you to numerically insert past 100?

also - where is my iceboard to accelerate effects on my G3?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 4:59:32 pm

[Walter Soyka] "
As you say, it would be necessary for the dancers to be precise as they repeated the performance, but that is what good dancers do."


Absolutely, as much as I love animation... I think the dancers did the hard part. I'm always stunned by the physicality of good dancers, and I'm especially amazed when they can make something so difficult look so easy. :-)

Shawn



Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 9:41:56 pm

[Phil Hoppes] "I don't believe there is any motion tracking at all."

[Walter Soyka] "It's live dance with projected visuals, not recorded dance with compositing visuals. I've worked on few of these integrated dance/visual pieces myself, and we always pre-produced the animations. ... I think the animation follows the dance, not the other way around."

I'd agree with these assessments, and I'd say this kind of work with projection is not uncommon in contemporary dance.

There's been lots of diverse work in terms of both documenting and interpreting dance with 3D tools (and video). Follows is one interesting example because it seems to aim to feed the visualization data back into the creative process:


http://synchronousobjects.osu.edu/ (autoplay music)
http://motionbank.org/

Createditigalmotion notes that Merce Cunningham may be the original innovator here, but I don't know enough about it, and of course there's a long history of dance and film.
http://createdigitalmotion.com/2014/01/dancer-to-score-to-animation-coding-...

Also, as a resource for projection work, createdigitalmotion seems to be an excellent resource (though I only skim it occasionally)

http://createdigitalmotion.com/


Franz.


Return to posts index


Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 11:04:06 pm

well, if you really want to bite down on the oncoming singularity - augment/supplant the dancers in the above post with some industrial robots.

the cameraman here could maybe just conceivably have been a human, but well - it's not.



http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 4:33:49 am

[Bill Davis] "I keep saying that the universe of video isn't what it used to be "

Lovely piece, Bill. Thanks for posting.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 7:12:03 pm

And speaking of shots where there is no edit, who can forget the early establishing shot in John Frankenheimer's The Train? I wonder how many feet of film ended up on the floor before they nailed that?

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/476051/Train-The-Movie-Clip-Money-Is-A-W...

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 7:29:09 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "And speaking of shots where there is no edit, who can forget the early establishing shot in John Frankenheimer's The Train?"

Frankenheimer was a wonderful director, great use of moving camera in many of his films. There are many other famous long takes to admire, including the amazing opening shot of Wells' "Touch of Evil."







As well as the famous final 7 minute crane shot that ends Antonioni's "The Passenger."

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 7:39:51 pm

Love them both.

Also, the Copa tracking shot in Goodfellas and the mock Touch of Evil shot in The Player.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 8:02:33 pm

man I love touch of evil. that shot still feels impossible.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 8:34:56 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "... the early establishing shot in John Frankenheimer's The Train"

[Herb Sevush] "... the amazing opening shot of Wells' Touch of Evil."

[Herb Sevush] "...the famous final 7 minute crane shot that ends Antonioni's The Passenger."

[Chris Harlan] "... the Copa tracking shot in Goodfellas and the mock Touch of Evil shot in The Player."

[Aindreas Gallagher] "... that shot still feels impossible."



Wandering down the tangent, one of the interesting recent examples of long-takes in mainstream cinema, Gravity, actually isn't, of course.

The meaning of what a shot is has shifted: it's an audience impression, not a physical fact. And thus a single "shot" now might contain untold amounts of editing. That's not new with Gravity - I suppose it's been with us for a few decades in FX - but Gravity brings it to the fore: it's funny to see the "single, unbroken, 11min shot" talked about in terms that suggest it's the same sort of accomplishment as a long take. ("Timecode", "Russian Ark" and the above examples being actually and impressively accomplished as such.)

I've read much about the opening "shot" for Gravity (since there is much to read about it) but nowhere have I actually read about the number of elements (or at least the number of actor-originated elements, ie shots) that go into that "one shot" - they almost avoid talking about hard facts like that, as if they are afraid to break the impression that it is "one shot"... for fear of making it seem "less impossible"?

Or in other words: even one shot might need to be edited.

Franz.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 9:43:06 pm

saying that Franz, a thing might possibly come into your head - even just watching that touch of evil shot again - say there are around maybe two hundred odd marionettes across crew, principal actors and extras hitting every mark like a bell. over the course of roughly two hundred odd seconds across 900 odd yards.
its gorgeous the people cutting perfectly and cleanly across the frame again and again. lots of street traders to slow that car down.
although what in the hell with that elevation to building height and down again to track. I don't care what the explanation is.
everyone has heard the - adolescent orson welles holding his wet kidney out, satan biting on it, cross roads rumour.

but still - ok I liked this article - better than anything in print for me:

http://provideocoalition.com/shullfish/story/gravity-co-editor-and-oscar-no...

there's this bit:

We had multiple takes to choose and mould performances from, but the actors would be presented with the animated cut in the morning and restricted to performing within the confines of what had been edited. This was due to the need to light the actors and their movements in the same way as the lit animation in the cut. It meant that Sandra & George were heavily restricted during the shoot and the fact that this is imperceptible onscreen is a testament to their astounding abilities.

It's not so much any single take that is mind boggling, it the fact that the film was edited before the actors walked on the stage.

In terms of stage direction, Clooney and Bullock basically performed a Beckett stage play. Where, you know, Cuaron was Beckett. they couldn't move their arms literally an inch past stage direction/previz.

My Ma did a few Beckett stage productions, and it's incredibly stoney soil for the actor, gravity sounded serious stoney soil for those actors - it was an extreme expression of director intent. Cuaron had physically moved them to the inch before they arrived, they enacted his will down to fingertip.
Actors have very mixed thoughts about beckett, and you'd be surprised if the two leads didn't have some odd internal moments in the process of making that film for cuaron.

The takes were broken down by my team conventionally but also to a minute level of detail as what makes an Alfonso Cuaron for me is always the detail. I could usually access any take, line, word or breath at any given moment.

that is, to be fair, a pretty atomised actor. its maaaybe not surprising they are moving like a herd towards high level novel length narrative outside "film".

or that complete unknowns are taking lead roles in many current blockbusters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/magazine/the-last-disposable-action-hero....

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 10:00:19 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "It's not so much any single take that is mind boggling, it the fact that the film was edited before the actors walked on the stage."

Aindreas,

Yes, read that. Editing as pre-production.

It's another good example of the compositional aspect of editing for those uninitiated (and it seems no one really understands what editing is unless they've done it).

Either that or pre-viz is swallowing up editing and post is now a sub-department of FX instead of the other way round.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "... they couldn't move their arms literally an inch past stage direction/previz."

I think in all of the exteriors, the only thing "real" is the faces, ... so an inch here and there on the arms may not have mattered.

Franz.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 5, 2014 at 10:31:03 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I think in all of the exteriors, the only thing "real" is the faces, ... so an inch here and there on the arms may not have mattered."

I know.. that's completely true, they are broadly floating faces - but I think it applied largely to the scenes where they interacted with the stations. There is stuff out there where takes were halted because of very small physical movement failures on the actor's part. that they were sock puppetting 3D character previz interacting with rigid bodies - he did construct exact environment facsimiles of close quarter portions for key scenes - mirroring edit specific previz - even if it was only the expression of body movement, for er, I really don't know, say their neck and head reaction to body translation? there would have to be at least body trunk and shoulder translation movement match involved at points. stretching and grabbing under close unbroken continuous camera like. bullock especially. very weird version of knowing your lines.
You'd think the deadly serious match sell to the audience was in the first 20 minutes. after that he got to go to looney tunes CG town.

surely some consolation to the actor to know their spine and upper body movement was involved in the performance at points?
again - Beckett did actually put actors in soil up to their necks.

aherm.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 6, 2014 at 4:02:16 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Beckett did actually put actors in soil up to their necks."

Aindreas,

Ha! I had forgotten about Happy Days. It's the perfect parallel.

“To be always what I am - and so changed from what I was.”

Franz.


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 8, 2014 at 2:10:55 am

it's odd isn't it? I don't think its directorial control per se - but cuaron feels running tangential to beckett in the places he demanded actors to go.

Beckett was particularly keen that there be both a symmetry and an artificiality to the set

or

there’s no shade, nothing, and that bell wakes you up all the time and all you’ve got is a little parcel of things to see you through life." He was referring to the life of the modern woman. Then he [beckett] said: "And I thought who would cope with that and go down singing, only a woman."

anyway you cut it - gravity is an ode existentially exclusive to woman kind.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 6, 2014 at 5:45:26 am

It's a classic Herb.


Pretty intense shot in the drug house scene of True Detectives.


Return to posts index

Mitch Ives
Re: And sometimes NO editing is necessary.
on Mar 6, 2014 at 1:41:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "I keep saying that the universe of video isn't what it used to be - and that if any of us succumb to the temptation of thinking of "video" exclusively in terms of Network TV or Hollywood Movies, or whatever the type of work WE do as individuals - we risk not noticing how others who aren't stuck in those particular forms are finding ways to extend what video actually can be."

You've been making that point for awhile now, and I agree with you. The democratization of video has it being used everywhere now... increasingly in non-traditional settings.

Nice piece... fun to watch...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]