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The Plan for Now

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Herb Sevush
The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 7:15:06 pm
Last Edited By Herb Sevush on Feb 19, 2014 at 7:17:26 pm

Not that anyone was waiting with baited breath for me to finally figure out a way forward, but the dust is finally settling and I can see my probable path and figured I'd post this.

FCP7 is getting more cantankerous by the minute and it is definitely time for a change. I expect there to be some 4K material coming my way, say about 5% of my workflow, and that is helping push me to another NLE by June, when we start cutting our next season.

My main requirements are ability to create ProRes deliverables, excellent multi-Cam, compatibility with some key plug-ins and ability to easily go back and forth with an EFX/compositing program. I am also looking for the ability to handle serious de-noising of audio, although my final mixes will be on the timeline.

CC PPro looks to be the winner of the NLE contest, and I say that with no joy considering my loathing for the whole subscription idea.

Avid is best suited for large scale collaborative workflows, and since I work primarily alone I get none of those advantages and it is a stodgy old nanny of an NLE that I've been avoiding these past 20 years or so. If I were younger and worried about finding work, I'd probably switch to Avid as the surest way to increase my marketability, but those are not my concerns.

FCPX is often tempting, I love the design of it's multicam feature, I'm intrigued with it's proxy workflow, but every time I hear a discussion about how you need to develop a plan as to when to use primary or secondary storylines, and knowing what kind of transitions can and cannot be done with connected clips, and how everything is solved with the tilde ~ key, I ask myself why would I ever want to spend my time figuring this out and I don't have an answer that makes sense for me. The more I hear discussions about X from it's happiest users, the more I believe that my original take on it was correct -- it's the solution to a problem that I was not having. I will sorely miss Auditions, as that feature addresses real needs that I have all the time, but for the rest, I'll happily wait a few years and see what develops.

So that leaves PPro, with the least attractive of all the workable mulitcams, but in it's tie-ins with AE, Photoshop and Audition, the most complete feature set of the 3 A's. I'll bite on the subscription for one year, make XMLs of all finished projects, and look to jump to something else (Lightworks???) when it becomes feasible.

Because of my need for ProRes deliverables I need to stay with OSX. I know there are freeware solutions to encode ProRes in Widows, but I'm not interested in a workaround for an essential part of my workflow so Mac it is.

If I was going for the nMP it would be the 6 core with D500s, 32 Gig of memory and a 500 gig boot drive - $4700. Then I'd need a 3 lane PCIe Expansion box with extra hard drive slots - which ups the price another 2K. I talked to my computer guy about building me a hackintosh, but he's strictly high end and that would cost me around 8k. But after seeing some of the Barefeets tests and talking to some PPro users I'm going in a different direction - upgrading my 2010 8 core tower with a Quadro K5000. Total cost - $1800. I don't get Tbolt, but then again I have a fairly extensive PCIe infrastructure and no Tbolt at this point. Other than that I will get performance fairly close, and is some instances better, than with a $6700 Tube/Expansion combo.

So it's back to the future, until something better comes along.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Al LeVine
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 7:50:50 pm
Last Edited By Al LeVine on Feb 19, 2014 at 7:51:43 pm

Same where I am.
And agree that FCP X is a solution to a problem I never had.

PPro all the way. We've been told that Adobe has more people in Premiere development than any other project at the company -- they're committed to continuing the great workflow Classic FCP set up. And I think we'll get a lot of really cool features with the version 8 release at NAB.

We're working on our first few series in Premiere and loving it. They have kinks to work out, and like FCP X the interface can be sluggish at times -- but it's headed in the right direction for sure.


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John Davidson
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 8:13:09 pm

Yeah Herb, the new X hasn't set well with you since it's launch so why not try Premiere? In terms of the CC rental thing, it's not my favorite either. No matter what NLE we use, we should all have excellent submaster, multi-track audio QT's of final projects. That's probably the best thing that came out of using Blackmagic to lay back to tape - generating complete QT backups is just part of our final process now instead of an afterthought that might be (and often was) easily forgotten with FCP7.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 8:18:56 pm

Herb, I know you've been holding out for a while, it's good that you have finally got a plan! PPro CC is a good choice, I've been using it a lot recently and it's been stable and fast.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Chris Harlan
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 8:46:53 pm

Yeah, I'm with Steve. I've been very happy with CC. I'm about 48% it, 48% Avid, right now, with 4% going to FCP7. I think you'll enjoy yourself.


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Richard Herd
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 8:19:46 pm

[Herb Sevush] "but in it's tie-ins with AE, Photoshop and Audition, "

Don't omit Speed Grade! WOW!!


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Tim Wilson
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 9:07:53 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I know there are freeware solutions to encode ProRes in Widows, but I'm not interested in a workaround...."

There are multiple well-supported professional applications from people like Telestream and Harmonic Rhozet that work directly inside Premiere. ProRes is an export option like any other. No hacks, no freeware, no workarounds.

Not to say that you don't need to pay attention in setup, but in fact Telestream Episode Engine, Vantage, and FlipFactory will all get 'er done - professional, fully supported, painless and fast.

I'm emphasizing fast, because you'll need to trade off price vs. speed...but you really need to see to believe. It's one of the places where faster processing on Windows really pays off...."pay" being relative of course.

Not that that changes anything else, including general comfort level, your budget, etc. but all else being equal, ProRes shouldn't be a go-no go question for platform because you WISELY don't want to trust a key workflow component to freeware.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 9:16:07 pm

[Tim Wilson] "but in fact Telestream Episode Engine, Vantage, and FlipFactory will all get 'er done - professional, fully supported, painless and fast. "

Damn Tim, just when I thought I had it figured out you go ahead and mess me up with some of your elitist "facts". Well, while this is good to know, I still think for ease of transition, and ease in my bank account, I will stay with OSX for now. But when the time comes to actually buy a new box, Windows gets consideration again. Nothing worse than facts to screw up a decision.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Keith Koby
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 2:39:58 am

[Tim Wilson] "There are multiple well-supported professional applications from people like Telestream and Harmonic Rhozet that work directly inside Premiere. ProRes is an export option like any other. No hacks, no freeware, no workarounds."

I wasn't aware of this on the windows side... I was under the impression that both episode (on windows) and rhozet (windows only) required windows server (and multiple servers in the case of rhozet) to enable ProRes. A lone windows 7 64 box would be out of luck.

Hopefully you are right and they changed that licensing, but it was a real mess trying to encode to prores from a windoze box.

On the other hand, Vantage/Tachyon ProRes files created on a lightspeed windows server 2008 r2 are very nice. We think the quality is better than ProRes from episode engine, especially when frame conversions are made. I highly recommend the vantage workflow control and video quality generated (with a few exceptions) for anyone who can afford, and needs that much processing.


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David Mathis
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 9:22:14 pm

[Richard Herd] "Don't omit Speed Grade! WOW!!"

I have never used Speed Grade before as I really like Resolve which is really nice.

I am thinking of going back to Premiere Pro as it seems a better tool than FCP X at the moment. For some reason in X there are areas where there are more extra steps to go through than is really necessary, just my opinion.

I also like to save several versions of a project, this way if something gets corrupted there is always another version available.

Not sure if it is me but FCP loves to create all kinds of render files which can quickly eat up drive space if you are not careful. Not a real issue with Premiere Pro as far as my experience has been.

I also love the "Dynamic Link" feature that Adobe has. I also like the fact you can import an AE project into Premiere, make any necessary changes and everything will update like it should, for the most part. At present there is no way of directly importing a Motion project in FCP X, why I will never know. There is no fast way of getting a FCP X timeline into Motion as well. Very disappointing to say the least.

I will say the color correction tools in X are nice for simple to intermediate stuff. Anything that is more involved or can be done better there is Resolve ready for action.


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Richard Herd
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 10:03:34 pm

[David Mathis] "Premiere Pro as it seems a better tool than FCP X at the moment"

Funny, I was just thinking the opposite. Bunches of footage to go through, and the metadata tagging in PP CS6, just isn't as good as X's range select and keywords.

For example (and I posted in the PP forum for help) the same clip has many shots of the different brands, but the retailer's deal with his wholesaler means he needs some commercials with just BrandA. So I am trying to use PP CS6 to create metadata fields, but I can't get it to work the way I need. Set the ins and outs and label the metadata, in a column called Brand. When I change the name to Brand A, then ALL of the clips change with it.

It's a real bummer actually.

I'm about an inch from going to 7 for it's fields and then XML over to CS6.

Getting coffee. Taking a walk.


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Richard Herd
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 10:14:02 pm

Yay! Turned off the link/chain button.

Now I'm cruising.


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David Mathis
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 10:27:51 pm

[Richard Herd] "
I'm about an inch from going to 7 for it's fields and then XML over to CS6."


Is it safe to have 7 and X on the same drive? I prefer not to have the need to partition the drive unless it is necessary. I assume Color and Resolve can be on the same drive as well.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 1:08:02 am

[David Mathis] "Is it safe to have 7 and X on the same drive? "

Absolutely. I have both on nearly all the machines at the shop.

There's "best practices" to installation depending on which order things are installed.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4722


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Darren Roark
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 10:08:18 pm

[David Mathis] "Not sure if it is me but FCP loves to create all kinds of render files which can quickly eat up drive space if you are not careful. Not a real issue with Premiere Pro as far as my experience has been. "

No it's not just you. Just turn off 'background rendering' in the prefs if your GPU can handle it.


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David Mathis
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 10:19:18 pm

[Darren Roark] "
No it's not just you. Just turn off 'background rendering' in the prefs if your GPU can handle it."


On occasion I get a message about dropped frames but that is specific so far to one plug-in, everything else works fine. I have it turned off now which does help.


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Steve Connor
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 19, 2014 at 11:07:18 pm

PPro also likes to fill up your drive with lots of render and peak files etc!

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 1:06:01 am

Good luck out there, Herb.

Come back and see us when you can.

Your plan for now sounds very sound.


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Herb Sevush
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 12:53:21 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Come back and see us when you can."

Who mentioned anything about leaving, this is still my favorite pasture at the cow. Kibitzing is in my DNA and I expect to be an annoyance around here for a while yet.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 2:13:21 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Who mentioned anything about leaving, this is still my favorite pasture at the cow. Kibitzing is in my DNA and I expect to be an annoyance around here for a while yet."







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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 9:42:07 pm

that video would imply people being occasionally bacheldered when they post jeremy.

surely shome mistake.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 1:16:40 am

[Herb Sevush] "FCP7 is getting more cantankerous by the minute ... helping push me to another NLE by June, when we start cutting our next season."

Herb,

What strikes me about this forum (including the hardware discussions) is how Apple (and others) are still competing against Apple technology from 2009-2010.

[Herb Sevush] FCPX is often tempting, ... I'll happily wait a few years and see what develops.
CC PPro looks to be the winner of the NLE contest, and I say that with no joy considering my loathing for the whole subscription idea.


Agreed on both counts. And disappointed that Lightworks seems to have missed a window.

[Herb Sevush] I still think for ease of transition, and ease in my bank account, I will stay with OSX for now. But when the time comes to actually buy a new box, Windows gets consideration again.

Consider setting up a windows boot partition or drive on your tower - if you're in CC, you can install both Mac and Windows versions, and bounce between them; it may prove to be a worthwhile experiment that sets in you in a better place to judge hardware and OS down the road. I currently have such an experiment running …

Thanks for the update post, and please do post on your multi-cam assessment.

Also, I think the word "bated" comes to us from falconry …


Franz.


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Cameron Clendaniel
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 1:45:11 am

Never tried X so can't weigh in on that (scared off from the start and haven't read anything to date to entice), but I've been very impressed with PPCC on a 2010 MacPro. Very stable and very, very fast (compared to FCP7). For what it's worth I think the K5000 is unnecessary. I upgraded to a GTX 770 4GB from macvidcards and that made for a noticeable bump in speed. Cost about $680 I believe. And I love the ease of the CC subscription.

Cameron Clendaniel
Film Editor, NYC
718-254-8027
cam@camclendaniel.com
http://www.camclendaniel.com



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Herb Sevush
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 1:10:27 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "Also, I think the word "bated" comes to us from falconry …"

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm

World Wide Words
Michael Quinion

"The correct spelling is actually bated breath but it’s so common these days to see it written as baited breath that there’s every chance that it will soon become the usual form, to the disgust of conservative speakers and the confusion of dictionary writers... Bated here is a contraction of abated through loss of the unstressed first vowel (a process called aphesis); it means “reduced, lessened, lowered in force”. So bated breath refers to a state in which you almost stop breathing as a result of some strong emotion, such as terror or awe...Bated and baited sound the same and we no longer use bated (let alone the verb to bate), outside this one set phrase, which has become an idiom. Confusion is almost inevitable."

I stand corrected, for now, on bated, although I didn't see any connection to falconry -- but that's a lovely word and makes me think of one of the great poems of the late great 20th century --

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. ...

The Second Coming
WB Yeats

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 6:12:53 pm
Last Edited By Franz Bieberkopf on Feb 20, 2014 at 6:13:13 pm

[Michael Quinion] "Bated here is a contraction of abated through loss of the unstressed first vowel (a process called aphesis); it means “reduced, lessened, lowered in force”. So bated breath refers to a state in which you almost stop breathing as a result of some strong emotion, such as terror or awe.."

Herb,

The falconry term seems to mean the opposite of abate - ie. frantic:
To flap the wings wildly or frantically.
(of hawks) to jump violently from a perch or the falconer's fist, often hanging from the leash while struggling to escape

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bate
http://www.americanfalconry.com/Glossary.html

Breathless amid mere anarchy, indeed.

And since we're discussing words (or software, as the case may be) fossilized before they gaed:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/51150/12-old-words-survived-getting-fossiliz...

Franz.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 20, 2014 at 9:47:10 pm

don't listen to him on word lineage and grammar herb - the germans don't know what to do with the esset these days even.

sick burn.

also, the man just spelt fossilised, fossilized

Bieberkopf is lost in the mid-atlantic I tell you. lost I say.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: The Plan for Now
on Feb 21, 2014 at 5:50:04 am

Herb, stand up straight. Stop slouching!


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