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What do you want from Motion?

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John Davidson
What do you want from Motion?
on Feb 15, 2014 at 10:45:08 pm
Last Edited By John Davidson on Feb 15, 2014 at 10:47:47 pm

In terms of transitions, generators, motion, compressor, and how they work with FCPX, I'd like to know what you would like added to the default lineup of Motion content in FCPX.

Things we want are:

  • Embedding audio in a custom motion generator so you can build a bars/tone generator easily. Heck, just make a b&t generator!
  • Color In-Out (for simple dips to color as a generator - we have this custom made and use it often.
  • More lens flare transitions and better flare options
  • 3D text
  • Good comedy transitions, pushes, cross zooms, etc. We have these custom made but it'd be great if they were built in, right?
  • Right click on a transition, generator, or effect and select 'add to favorites' as an option, which would then create a top level 'Favorites' theme.
  • And of course, 'Send to motion'.
  • More and better transitions, glows, etc.

  • It's a pipe dream, but I'd love an 'import After Effects project' option!

  • If you could ask the Motion team for anything, what would it be? What transitions and things like that are you paying for that you wish were built in? Please, be specific.

    Thanks!


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    Bob Woodhead
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 15, 2014 at 11:21:30 pm

    [John Davidson] "And of course, 'Send to motion'."

    This.


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    Mitch Ives
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 12:56:23 am

    [Bob Woodhead] "[John Davidson] "And of course, 'Send to motion'."

    This."


    Yep!

    Mitch Ives
    Insight Productions Corp.

    "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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    Bret Williams
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:10:38 am

    That


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    Mathieu Ghekiere
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 15, 2014 at 11:55:31 pm

    Check out mObject if you want 3D text.


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    John Davidson
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 12:04:26 am

    Thanks. We're focusing on things we want Motion to do natively in coordination with FCPX right out of the box without plugins.

    For example, say you make a fake transition in FCPX where one clip zooms in as another zooms out using scale and rotation. You have to build these using inspector/scale/rotation. How could would it be if you could range tool that home built 'transition', and then have an option to 'save keyframe data as motion transition template'. That would be pretty cool!

    John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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    Bret Williams
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:12:08 am

    Essentially, send to motion.


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    Andy Neil
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 12:03:01 am

    Great list, John. I especially would love to see an embedded audio option. It would make gfx package building so much better. I don't even need a B&T generator, just the ability to make one with embedded tone.

    One of the biggest things I've wanted from Motion is a 3D paint stroke.

    Also, I would love to be able to replicate a 3D element like a 3D paint stroke or particle emitter.

    I would like clones to maintain any 3D properties. For example, if you create a 3D particle emitter or replicator to mimic a 3D paint stroke (there it is again), and then clone that layer, I'd like the clone to be able to react in 3D space the same.

    A better RAM preview. One that doesn't max out to the gfx card memory and will allow a preview of an entire project even if it's complicated.

    Project nesting. Being able to place one project inside another as a kind of precomp.

    A way for users to create custom behavior simulations. Wouldn't it be great if enterprising users could script custom behaviors that anyone could use?

    As far as Motion/FCPX collaboration...

    A menu option in the inspector to save a group of effects applied to a clip as a single group. So if you have a color effect, blur, texture filter all combining on one clip, FCPX can group them (and their parameter values) into a single effect that can be saved to the favorites theme you suggested and applied as one to other clips in other projects as needed.

    A default option to restrict whether or not a transition applied to a top level clip affects clips below. In other words, if you apply a flip transition to a title, that you can choose for the effect to only affect the title and not any clips below it if you so desire.

    An individual default transition length. It would work like this. Right-click a transition in the effects browser and select "Choose Transition Length", and then type in what you want in frames. That default length is saved for that transition only. Different transitions can have different default lengths.

    Better UI tools for creating On Screen Controls for custom effects.

    Multiple transition/filter/generator shortcuts similar to the favorites folder in FCP7.


    Most of these are probably pipe dreams, but you asked. I don't want any new transition or effect content really. Most of that default stuff is useless or else it'll become ubiquitous when everyone and their dog starts using it.

    Andy

    http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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    John Davidson
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 12:08:21 am

    That's a good list. You can sort of build multiple motion combo effects as a single FCPX effect, but it would sure be awesome/easy if you could do it right in FCPX. When I find I need one of those motion transitions, by the time you open motion, build it, test it, realize you screwed something up, go back, republish it, etc., you've forgotten what you were doing in the edit in the first place!

    John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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    Ricardo Marty
    btw
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:29:43 am

    Speaking of motion, Anyone know if the original combustion still part of the motion project?

    Ricardo Marty


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    Michael Garber
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 4:11:12 am

    Built in adjustment layer so I don't have to remember which 3rd party one I used when reconnecting in another system.

    Michael Garber
    5th Wall - a post production company
    Blog: GARBERSHOP
    My Moviola Webinar on Cutting News in FCP X


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    David Mathis
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 5:53:41 am

    Four things I would like to see:

    1. More plug-ins Adobe wins hands down
    2. Expressions, parameters seem to require a couple of steps too many and are not as flexible
    3. Null object
    4. The ability to parent layers together


    Bonus round:
    Sent To Motion in X Why is this feature no longer there?


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    Andy Neil
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 6:33:45 am

    [David Mathis] "1. More plug-ins Adobe wins hands down "

    I try not to consider AE and Motion to be in competition, but this is also a catch 22. Plugin manufacturers don't make as many plugins for Motion because it has a much smaller user base. The user base grows slowly because there aren't enough plugins.

    [David Mathis] "2. Expressions, parameters seem to require a couple of steps too many and are not as flexible"

    True. But though behaviors are less flexible, they are far and away easier to pick up and learn. People good at expressions don't believe this, but that's because they can't remember when they didn't understand how to make expressions work.

    [David Mathis] "3. Null object"

    Any layer in Motion can be a null object. Just create a layer and turn it off. I do this all the time.

    [David Mathis] "4. The ability to parent layers together"

    Linking provides some of this, but it's too limited.

    Andy

    http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:58:15 pm

    Fix the edges in the keyer.

    The edge of the frame should not be part of the light wrap (edge crop), and the edges of the resulting matte after the key need to be more natural and less processed, especially on more difficult keys with subjects that have hair. Some of us have to key more than bald men.


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    Mitch Ives
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:04:24 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "Fix the edges in the keyer.

    The edge of the frame should not be part of the light wrap (edge crop), and the edges of the resulting matte after the key need to be more natural and less processed, especially on more difficult keys with subjects that have hair. Some of us have to key more than bald men."


    Amen... and while you're at it, make sure it's fixed in FCPX

    Mitch Ives
    Insight Productions Corp.

    "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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    Jeremy Garchow
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:29:25 pm

    [Mitch Ives] "Amen... and while you're at it, make sure it's fixed in FCPX"

    I was kind of hoping for a twofer since the Motion and FCPX keeps seem to be inextricably linked!

    ;)

    Jeremy


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    Simon Ubsdell
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:37:06 pm
    Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Feb 17, 2014 at 10:19:00 pm

    [Jeremy Garchow] "Fix the edges in the keyer.

    The edge of the frame should not be part of the light wrap (edge crop), and the edges of the resulting matte after the key need to be more natural and less processed, especially on more difficult keys with subjects that have hair. Some of us have to key more than bald men."


    Indeed. But on top of all that, they really should look at two further areas:

    Firstly, the matte tools are not suitable given the harsh automatic key that's extracted.

    If you try to pull some edge detail back using the only possible control that might get you there, namely the "Bias" (actually just a gamma control with a fancy name), you won't get much detail back but worse you will make the matte's solid black backing uniformly non-transparent. Not a result you could live with. No idea what's going on there to produce this but it means the matte tools are functionally next to useless.

    EDIT: You'd have thought you could pull this non-transparency back into line by using the Black Level control, but no matter how hard you push it, the result stays the same.

    Secondly, they really need to rethink the spill suppression. The method they are using looks pretty crude - the results don't look good and again the tools they supply to "finesse" the result are simply bizarre and mostly just inappropriate. Tint?? Contrast?? Very strange. (Actually I suspect Tint just over-drives the spill suppression, since it's not a tint in the sense of a color that the user can influence.)

    Lots more control needed over the spill suppression to enable a halfway decent result. Spill suppression is a totally critical component of a decent keyer - even if you can pull a great key, if you can get the spill suppression right you'll never get a workable result.

    More work to do all round, for sure.

    I just hope they don't fix it too quickly and too well ... ;-)

    FURTHER EDIT: With a lot of work I was able to get a result that wasn't too bad, but the issue of the non-black backing is insurmountable and really a deal-breaker. If you are extremely careful and know what you are doing you can get an OK result with the spill suppression, but there is no meaningful latitude.

    And that's the major issue throughout - you just can't control the plug-in to get the results you want because it's all fixed into one rigid method, which is not nearly subtle enough to start with.

    If there's one thing you need in a keyer above all, it's the ability to finesse every aspect, for the simple reason that no two green(blue) screens present the exact same challenge. But in Apple's world it's one size fits all - which is the fundamental issue.

    Simon Ubsdell
    http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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    David Eaks
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 17, 2014 at 12:02:22 am

    Andy Neil- "I try not to consider AE and Motion to be in competition"

    What I want from Motion is for it to be generally considered as a direct competitor to AE.

    But that's not very specific. Mostly I just want 3D, objects/text, extrusion, a "round" particle etc. NOT meaning stereoscopic 3D, which I couldn't be less interested in.


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    Keith Koby
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 4:57:33 pm

    Audio coming along for the ride in generators as you mention. Bars and tone or countdown slate templates, or lower third with audio effects can't be made.

    Along those lines, generators, inside of fcpx need to be trimmable/expandable, and not just retimed. Imagine you create an animated lower 3rd that is 20 seconds long but only want 10 seconds of it and want to throw a fade on the end. Making it shorter only retimes it to make it faster. Or if you make a 7 second countdown slate and want to shorten it to 5. Impossible.


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    Ronny Courtens
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 5:36:28 pm

    Keith,

    If you have an FCPX generator that cannot be trimmed without changing the timing of the effect there are two things you can do:

    1. Put the generator into a compound clip and trim the CC (one-time solution)

    2. Open the generator in Motion 5.

    When it opens in Motion make sure nothing is selected in your project timeline, move the playhead to the end of the timeline and add a marker on the timeline.

    Then R-click on the marker to edit it and change the type to "loop-end". Save the generator and now you will always be able to trim it inside FCPX without changing the timing.

    - Ronny


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    Keith Koby
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 19, 2014 at 2:59:47 pm

    Thanks Ronny and Andy! Very helpful information re: loop point. Now if we could only include audio...


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    Andy Neil
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 5:36:46 pm

    [Keith Koby] "Imagine you create an animated lower 3rd that is 20 seconds long but only want 10 seconds of it and want to throw a fade on the end. Making it shorter only retimes it to make it faster. Or if you make a 7 second countdown slate and want to shorten it to 5. Impossible."

    No it's not. It's completely doable. You just need to make sure and set a project loop point marker at the end so FCPX knows you're looping the generator.

    Check out this tutorial of mine which covers how to make a looping background.







    And regarding your lower third example, you can use markers to force a specified range of frames to be played normally and not retimed so that expansion only occurs in the still portion of an animated L3. Check out my other tutorial on Lower Thirds that shows how this is done.

    Motion Quick Tip: Custom Titles for FCPX

    The pertinent section starts around 18:00.

    Andy

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/107277729326633563425/videos


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    Marcus Moore
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 5:49:42 pm
    Last Edited By Marcus Moore on Feb 16, 2014 at 5:51:38 pm

    I know you're prefacing this as stuff that should be built into Motion, but in this case I think the analogy to AE is very apt. Some very specialized functionality is always going to be better as a plugin, and AEs real strength in functionality is in large part attributed to it's 3rd party plugin support.

    AE has built-in particles, but anyone who's serious uses Particular.

    AE has built-in 3D text, but its not a shadow on Element 3D.

    Same thing with 3D Camera Tracking.

    Same thing with Lensflare.

    So I don't think we should OVERLY handicap Motion in this regard- saying it should have everything you list built in.

    You can still create editable templates you can publish to FCPX using plugins mObject or mFlare. MotionVFX themselves are releasing customizable packs for Broadcast News and Sports intros and graphics.


    Anyway. All I'm saying is that a product like Motion, priced at $50, is only going to have so much built in functionality; and like AE will see it's feature set augmented by plug-ins. Undeniably, Motion is the most powerful motion graphics tool in it's price-range.


    That's not to say I don't think it can't improve:

    Of course, Roundtrip to Motion. Much like FCP7 had really, except it works.

    Broadcast Monitoring support needs to come back.

    I would like to see better 3D tracking support. The only real solution at this stage is SynthEyes, and external application. Though it is a REALLY great tracker, so I'm not sure a less capable, built-in one would be that beneficial.

    I'd like to see a better Particle system. But again I think that's probably going to be left to 3rd parties.

    Let's not forget that Motion 5.1 added FXPlug3 support. We have yet to see what that will bring in terms of 3rd party plugins.

    Right now it's #49 on the Mac App Store Top Grossing list. And I think Motions usefulness as a motion graphics generator for FCPX will probably mean an overall boost in it's user-base.

    If that's the case, then it becomes a more attractive opportunity for guys like RedGiant or VideoCopilot.


    Overall, it's hard to peg where Motion development is going to go. Apple certainly has no interest in making it a serious compositing/special effects competitor.

    However, I think Adobe's move to subscription pricing has left and enormous opportunity for low-end disruptors. Most people only use a faction of the power in PS or AE, and after using Motion pretty much exclusively for the better part of 4 years- I think a good chunk of people who are using AE could do what their doing in Motion. So perhaps that's an opportunity.



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    David Mathis
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 6:53:44 pm

    [Marcus Moore] "
    AE has built-in particles, but anyone who's serious uses Particular."


    Zing! Particular rocks! It is powerful, flexible and fun!


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    Marcus Moore
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 7:05:07 pm

    It is. Though sadly I hardly ever get to use it now that I lean so heavily on Motion.

    I wonder if FXPlug3 support means that a plugin like Particular would be easier for VideoCopilot to migrate to Motion now.



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    Simon Ubsdell
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 9:07:08 pm

    [Marcus Moore] "I wonder if FXPlug3 support means that a plugin like Particular would be easier for VideoCopilot to migrate to Motion now."

    Trapcode (which developed Particular) is a computer technology research and development company based in Stockholm, Sweden. The focus is on creating groundbreaking and robust software for graphics and audio.

    Trapcode was started in 2001 by Peder Norrby. It still today is basically a one-man operation and this is made possible by partnering with publisher Red Giant Software that handles sales, tech support and some engineering so that Norrby can focus on creating new technologies.

    Simon Ubsdell
    http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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    Marcus Moore
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 16, 2014 at 9:16:22 pm

    Yeah, I knew I'd mixed up my companies after I hid "Post".

    But my question still stands. We've heard relatively little about FXPlug3 support in Motion and FCPX except that it should enable custom interfaces. Hopefully NAB will bring some announcements about what this might mean more specifically for new 3rd party tools.



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    James Sullivan
    Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:57:28 pm

    Send to AE! or a flavor of XML that adobe can deal with. Clip exporter is no longer updated and I have had weird gaps in simple sequences. Apparently the way that FCPx counts time creates rounding errors in other packages. I want my NLE to be just that. Just editing and editing well.

    Fight,

    James



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    Shawn Miller
    Slightly OT: Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Feb 21, 2014 at 5:13:51 pm
    Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Feb 21, 2014 at 5:34:05 pm

    EDIT: Sorry, I meant to say that I was curious how you all are handling composting with material originating from 3D applications and cameras that shoot in log... I'm looking at you, Simon. :-)

    How do you folks work in linear and log... is it via plugins, LUTs, or is the capability built in?

    Thanks,

    Shawn





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    Tangier Clarke
    Re: Slightly OT: Re: What do you want from Motion?
    on Aug 14, 2014 at 5:49:17 pm

    Something like the pin tool in AE
    Ability to bend objects (so I don't have to convert my logo into a font just to wrap it around something)
    Something like mObject 3D capability

    Make it a direct competitor to AE already rather than an compliment to it.

    Tangier


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