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4K might become a reality quicker than we think

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Andre van Berlo
4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 8, 2014 at 6:22:52 pm

On this forum I’ve seen people figure that they won’t need 4K editing capability for the next 2-3 years. This week I saw that Panasonic is going to release its GH4 with 4K. Estimates are that it will cost under 2K, perhaps even around $1500.

This might cause a snowball effect driving Canon and Nikon to release 4K capable cam’s at lower prices. The more 4K footage being shot one can assume more 4K footage will have to be edited. Things might not go that fast but the industry will try to keep consumers spending their money on their gadgets. The macpro is “built for 4K” and perhaps 4K is coming quicker than some of us expect?
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh4/4505-6501_7...
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/6/5387296/panasonic-gh4-mirrorless-camera-4k...


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 8, 2014 at 9:19:39 pm

I agree with this. It's the changing expectations of the people who pay us that will change things.

Thinking back to 2008, most of the post houses I dealt with for commercials in LA charged around double for HD workflow. Then suddenly a year later the 7D came out and the 5D had the 24p firmware update. A bunch of ad agency creatives went out and bought them much to the dismay of many DPs I know who for a time were expected to shoot jobs on those. The cat was out of the bag and our clients were unwilling to pay the HD surcharge any longer.

Now that PP and FCPX can both edit in native 5K footage, clients shooting lower budget jobs on the upcoming inexpensive 4K cameras will have raised expectations. It will be like 2009 all over again. I'm still happy with my 720p 50" plasma that I sit six feet away from, but the 4K 39" crappy Seiki monitor I bought showing Red footage looks stunning up close. Most people stand right up close to the TVs in the stores and judge the picture quality and I bet 4K will sell a lot of them unfortunately.

The bright side is there will be a point where this will eventually stop as the human eye has it's limits. Unless Sony is currently developing bionic retinal implants, I am optimistic it will end at 4K.


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Neil Goodman
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 8, 2014 at 10:04:50 pm

but what good is it w/o a legitimate delivery methods?

4k Tvs still away's away from being affordable/ common place.

Broadcast Tv is not gonna flip anytime soon.

The internet isnt fast enough to stream/downlaod it in general.

Even high end Studio features are cutting at offline resolutions so really whats the point yet?


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 12:22:09 am

Matt Lauer already looks too real for comfort to me in HD. Just as HD workflow gets easy, now they are hellbent on changing it up again. I'm not happy about any of this, but it's happening much faster than when HD rolled out here in the states.

You can download and watch 4K movies with Sony's overpriced media player right now. At about 40GB each, depending on their servers, that would take about three hours per to download on my connection. Not great, but still doable, HEVC will make it easier. The BDA announced 4K Blu-Ray discs are on the way last month, and Netflix will be testing 4K in certain areas with the next season of "House of Cards".

This 4K youtube video of footage from that new panasonic camera steams at 4K just fine. (It's only 3 mins, a 90min film at that compression would be 13GB)





Sears is selling a Seiki 4K 55" tv right now for $850 and they have pretty good reviews, they already have cheap affordable sets. Most people don't understand resolution is only part of it, but it didn't stop them from calling 1080 "TrueHD" which was total BS to make people buy yet another TV.

The broadcast side I totally agree. Most people are unaware they are usually watching a heavily degraded 720p signal at best from most broadcasters. That and some are finally phasing out tape as a delivery medium in spite of the HDCAM SR decks they had to buy at $100K a pop. (from Sony) For broadcast, they will change when they have to and it won't be soon.

The point is if they can sell people new TVs and make money, they will. Then everything else has to catch up to that standard. We just saw all this happen in the mid-2000s and now it's happening again ten years later. Sony is a TV maker and a major movie studio who master all their current films and TV shows in 4K. (Breaking Bad is in 4K on their media player.) That way they have the content to lure people into buying a TV they don't need.

Again, I don't agree with it, but any new content I make I am going to be keeping this in mind.


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Bob Cole
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 13, 2014 at 8:36:00 pm

A reality-check aside: "Broadcast tv" may say it is HD, but when you see it through cable, the compression is so severe that it probably should not qualify as high definition.

I just cut the cable, and started looking at over-the-air HD, and the difference is stunning.

Bob C


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John Davidson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 8, 2014 at 10:41:43 pm

We did our first source 4k RED RAW multi camera project on FCPX last month - delivery was 1080i HDCam. I really thought it was going to be a pain the the butt to work with all the footage but we edited in proxy and it was surprisingly painless. We even did coloring in X. The flexibility of working a 1080i project with 4k footage, allowing for crops and zooms without resolution loss was pretty awesome. It was edited on a 2011 iMac.

It motivated me to buy one of those Seiki 50" TV's just so I could see the footage better. I hope we get lots more 4k work because that was a fun workflow.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 8, 2014 at 10:46:28 pm

I think the workflow John mentioned (4k shoot, HD delivery) is going to be what becomes common sooner rather than later.

Though I've already seen a few no-budget 4k projects on Craigslist demanding someone, for free of course, finish their project in 4k (like the the problems they have can be fixed by adding more pixels...).


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Michael Phillips
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 12:20:15 am

The debate is not with 4K acquisition, editing or mastering - it is in the distribution.

Michael


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 12:56:11 am

[Michael Phillips] "The debate is not with 4K acquisition, editing or mastering - it is in the distribution. "

Distribution will be streaming/digital downloads and probably won't really take off until H.265 becomes common. Sony already has a 4k streaming service and Netflix will start streaming in 4k this year (as well as shooting it's original content in 4k). Amazon, Comcast and DirecTV all announced at CES that they are getting into the 4k game too. Oh, YouTube offers 4k too.

Broadcasting in 4k is a much bigger challenge as it would basically be the analog/digital switch all over again.


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 1:18:00 am

[Andre van Berlo] " On this forum I’ve seen people figure that they won’t need 4K editing capability for the next 2-3 years. This week I saw that Panasonic is going to release its GH4 with 4K. Estimates are that it will cost under 2K, perhaps even around $1500."

Try more like $1999-ish, with the requirement of purchasing microP2 cards at $355 per 64GB.

Then, on top of that, it's 8-bit 4:2:0 AVCHD (H.264-based) 4k.

Then you have the breakout box with 4 3G SDI ports...for another $2k.

Then either a Ki Pro Quad or the Odyssey 7Q.

It all adds up to not being that cheap.


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John Davidson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 1:45:05 am

I'm more interested in seeing what Blackmagic comes out with this year. A production cinema camera with higher frame rates would pretty much win me over.

We have the Sony FS700, but when their 4k Recorder ended up costing more than the camera and turned it into an unwieldy bazooka, they pretty much blew whatever desire I had to get it. It's also really annoying they charge for a firmware upgrade.

That's pretty much how it goes these days. Company releases breakthrough product, then fails to follow up with making it the perfect product because of terror at cannibalizing their other product categories. How many cameras has Canon released since the 5D Mark II? Like, 80? I always felt like the FS700 was a hail-mary fluke from Sony. It's still phenomenal for slow motion, but once you've worked with RAW color it's kind of hard to want to go back to H264.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 5:04:39 am

Give me the enhanced 2020 color space and 10 bit color depth that is included in the UHTV-1 spec but at 1080p60/120. That would be a meaningful and broadcast-able change. 4K TVs are simply Japanese sponsored product obsolescence.

Hang out at a 1080 vs 4k demo at NAB and see what people do. They ask "Is that 4K?" and then they walk up to it to see the difference. It's not even close to SD vs HD... that was impossible to miss.

4K at 60fps is 12Gb!! The 6Gb Blackmagic stuff is limited to 30fps. Don't even get me started on 8K!!

The first DLP digital cinema projectors in theaters were/are 720p, and this on a 40ft screen! Now 1080 is not good enough on a 80 in screen!... spare me!

Give me 2020 10bit color at 1080p60/120 on a 60in OLED.

John


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 4:07:32 pm

[John Heagy] "Hang out at a 1080 vs 4k demo at NAB and see what people do. They ask "Is that 4K?" and then they walk up to it to see the difference. It's not even close to SD vs HD... that was impossible to miss."

The worse thing you can do is go to a Fry's where they have the 4K demo display smack dab in the middle of all their newest 1080p panels. It's really hard to spot the difference, except all the 4K demo material is at 30p and not 24, so the motion cadence difference between the two gives a slight clarity edge, which is b.s. since 1080 works the same way.


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David Lawrence
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 2:23:15 am

[Gary Huff] "The worse thing you can do is go to a Fry's where they have the 4K demo display smack dab in the middle of all their newest 1080p panels. It's really hard to spot the difference, except all the 4K demo material is at 30p and not 24, so the motion cadence difference between the two gives a slight clarity edge, which is b.s. since 1080 works the same way."

Agreed. On the other hand, my local Best Buy has some new 4K panels from Samsung and Sony and the demos are pretty amazing.

The Samsung panel is UHD and their demo material is shot with HDR imaging. While the colors are unnatural, the detail is staggering. On the expansive, wide, city shots, you can read street signs and see pedestrians and cars. The closer you get, the more you see. It's pretty mind blowing.

The Sony demo has more natural, realistic color. Again very nice detail.

Of course, with most normal material at normal viewing distances a lot of this detail is moot. I agree that better frame rates and color gamut would be a more valuable upgrade right now. But 4K is cool! I look forward to getting my hands on it more often.

_______________________
David Lawrence
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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 2:44:35 am

[Gary Huff] "4K demo material is at 30p and not 24, so the motion cadence difference between the two gives a slight clarity edge"

Good point!

The only thing more pointless than 4K in the home, is 4K at 24fps. Of course given that downloads will be the first 4K available, I'd assume they will be shot mostly at 24fps despite not needing to adhere to any broadcast standards.

That's the real hypocrisy of those demanding the quality of 4K. Ask them what frame rate they'll shoot...

24 of course!!!

Heaven forbid their new 4K camera look too sharp with motion that looks too smooth. Oh no... 4K "video"!!

The "cult of 24" is strong. 4K will overwhelmingly be shot at 24fps... eye roll!!!

Go Peter Jackson go!!

John


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Shawn Miller
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57:41 pm
Last Edited By Shawn Miller on Feb 10, 2014 at 7:08:02 pm

[John Heagy] "The only thing more pointless than 4K in the home, is 4K at 24fps."

Even more pointless than 3D? :-)

Shawn



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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:50:02 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Even more pointless than 3D? :-)"

another good point... at least one can see 3D.

4K 3D actually has some merit if one shoots each eye in 1080 and merges to 4K stereo for delivery.

John


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Keoni Tyler
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 21, 2014 at 10:53:47 am

Exactly.

While 4K -thru- 12K are all great from a production acquisition and archival point of view, recent shoppers at Sony retail stores watching a 4K screen from 10 feet away said "Mewww, it's nice but not that much better than the Sony HD we have at home."

History holds the lesson: When we went from LPs/vinyl to CDs, the quality difference to the average consumer were giant leaps forward, and the recording and retail industry forced it by slowly vanishing LPs in stores.

Newer technologies after the CD? DAT (Digital Audio Tape), Digital Compact Cassette (DCC), Sony MiniDisc (MD) and SuperCD (SACD) all failed. Audiophiles and perfect-pitched musicians aside - the average consumer could not hear a difference between newer formats and their freshly-renewed CD collection, and were not about to start over again as they just did with their vinyl collection. Further, there was no "force" at the record companies and record stores to replace CDs with the newer tech.

In 1992, High Def could be compressed into a Standard Def 6MHz 't.v. channel,' making delivery to the home possible. But HD's implementation also needed a force: it took the federal government's mandate that all broadcasters transmit digitally (SD or HD) to usher HD into the home en masse, ala 2009. Chicken or egg.

The 2K or 4K compressed signal to the home is only slightly better than HD, not significantly better. With no FCC mandate this time around to force broadcasters into unilaterally sending 3D, 2K, 4K, the marketing hype may fall on deaf consumer ears.

-keoni tyler

K. Tyler


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Andre van Berlo
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 7:22:24 am

from what I've understood you can record in cam 4k at 8 bit 4:2:0 and perhaps you can record hdmi out 4:2:2 at 4K. A lot of people already have equipment for external hdmi recording. The GH4 as far as I know doesn't take p2 cards but brand new SD cards


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Mark Dobson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 7:45:20 am

I think a lot of people will whet their appetite for a fairly painless introduction to 4k with the recently announced Sony FDR-AX100 which is a compact handheld style camcorder with an anticipated under $2K price tag. I'm certainly tempted to buy one as a B camera to accompany my C300 out on shoots.

It comes with ND Filters as well as manual controls for white balance, gain and shutter speed and unlike other 4K options at this price point comes with a servo controlled zoom range 29mm-348mm.

[John Davidson] "We did our first source 4k RED RAW multi camera project on FCPX last month - delivery was 1080i HDCam. I really thought it was going to be a pain the the butt to work with all the footage but we edited in proxy and it was surprisingly painless. We even did coloring in X. The flexibility of working a 1080i project with 4k footage, allowing for crops and zooms without resolution loss was pretty awesome. It was edited on a 2011 iMac."

As John points out the ability to crop and zoom and maintain resolution could be very useful. I am able to get away with a 15 to 20% zoom / crop movement with the shots I get from the C300 this is useful for putting a touch of movement on locked off shots.

But as to 4k delivery . . . . . . . . . .


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John Davidson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 7:53:52 am

[Mark Dobson] "But as to 4k delivery . . . . . . . . . ."

Yep. Looking back it was about 3 to 4 years from when we first started working with HD to when we actually started delivering HD. The thing that HD brought - and was accelerated by the lack of HDCam tapes thanks to the tsunami damaging the Sony plant - was nets getting super comfy with digital delivery. That digital delivery ability will be super useful with H265 and 4k. SD to HD was painful because it was a analogue to digital transition. HD to 4k is a much easier because it's all still digital.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 5:13:04 pm

[John Davidson] "That digital delivery ability will be super useful with H265 and 4k. SD to HD was painful because it was a analogue to digital transition. HD to 4k is a much easier because it's all still digital."

Just to tweak this slightly, analogue to digital and SD to HD were two separate things that occurred at the same time. SD broadcasts still exist today but consumer electronics makers intentionally coincided their push to HD products, and phasing out of SD products, along the same time frame. Of course having both things going on at the same time certainly amplified the difficulty of the process.

I agree that HD to 4k will be less confusing (people are already comfortable with the aspect ratio, frame rates, etc.,) and it will be easier because 4k content will come via streaming/downloads while broadcast will stay HD. If broadcast wanted to switch to HD then it would basically be the analog to digital switch again. The ATSC is working on new broadcast standards that included UHD but they won't be compatible with current standards which means new transmission gear for broadcasters and new TVs for consumers. Considering the cost of switching and the declining revenue in broadcast TV I'm sure not many broadcasters are eager to switch again.


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 3:23:55 am

[Andre van Berlo] "A lot of people already have equipment for external hdmi recording."

Not at 4K.

[Andre van Berlo] "The GH4 as far as I know doesn't take p2 cards but brand new SD cards"

It will take SD cards, but if you want to shoot 4K internally you have to use microP2.


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TImothy Auld
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 3:17:07 pm

Certainly I'm already seeing it used in production fairly regularly. As far as consumer TV's, I don't know.
The first time I saw HD was at NAB in 1986. And it still a given everywhere in the market.

Tim


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 4:09:24 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Feb 9, 2014 at 4:10:21 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Certainly I'm already seeing it used in production fairly regularly."

You are, but what is going to editorial? All of my work with Red Epic X has editorial requesting ProRes 4:2:2 HQ 1080 and no REDCODE Raw.

I think you're going to see a lot of people invest in 4K cameras and give away the farm because they won't be able to squeeze any more money out of the budget to make a 4K workflow and mastering worthwhile.


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TImothy Auld
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 5:35:07 pm

Quite true. I worked on something shot entirely with Epic last year and it hit theater screens at 1080p, as do most movies these days.

Tim


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Tom Olsen
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 8:36:57 pm

We used to acquire images on film and then jam it into an SD delivery method.

Acquisition resolution usually exceeds the delivery resolution...

4K gives us a better image to work with so I welcome it-we can always down-convert it for transmission. Just recently we would shoot on HD and deliver a SD master for broadcast on SD stations.

Lets just skip 4K and go straight to 8K!

Film Editor, Avid Media Composer Editor, Adobe Premiere CC Editor, FCP 7 Editor.


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David Mathis
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 9, 2014 at 9:29:16 pm

I assume that most motion pictures are now shot in 4K resolution since there seems to be a transition from film to digital. Regardless of the digital format to me film has a certain personality to it. Digital seems cold, distant and too sterile for me. Something about the scratches, dirt and dust on film that gives it a personality. Plus the color and grain adds something to it. I guess I am just old fashioned but analog seems to have a certain warmth to it.


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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 2:31:27 am

[David Mathis] "I assume that most motion pictures are now shot in 4K resolution..."

Nope... most are shot in 2K which is just a bit over 1080x1920. Arri understands there's more important things than resolution when it come to making a good image.

7 of 9 best picture nominees shot with the 2K Alexa.

Best Picture
CAPTAIN PHILLIPS - ARRICAM, ARRIFLEX, ALEXA and Aaton cameras
DALLAS BUYERS CLUB - ALEXA
GRAVITY - ALEXA
HER - ALEXA
NEBRASKA - ALEXA
PHILOMENA - ALEXA
THE WOLF OF WALL STREET - ARRICAM and ALEXA


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Tim Wilson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 2:55:16 am

[John Heagy] "Nope... most are shot in 2K which is just a bit over 1080x1920. Arri understands there's more important things than resolution when it come to making a good image. "

Alexa maxes out at 2880 x 1620, but yeah, I entirely concur and was writing a post to say this very thing when I saw yours go up. You're absolutely right: it's mostly 2K, because pixels do NOT equal resolution.

(FWIW, the last two Cinematography Oscars went to Alexa pictures, and if Gravity wins...and I think it will...that'd be the third 3D feature in a row!!!)

Even though it was 4-ish years ago, Avatar was indeed shot at 1920 x 1080, even though 4K cameras were available. The big screen doesn't NEED big captures if they look good.

What's especially interesting to me, though, is that indie shops, even one-man bands, get to this new tech long before features or TV do. While engineers were still arguing about how to deliver HD, event videographers were selling future-proofed wedding videos shot on HD.

The same was true with corporate video. You could shoot HD, and show it in the boardroom on plasma screens long before there was a way to broadcast it or put it on a disk. The smaller the scale project or shop, the easier it is to quickly adopt new formats -- and it's very much underway already.

So I would expect lots and LOTS of 4K/5K production for spots, music videos, corporate, and yes, even weddings, long before it's common in either features or broadcast.


The other irony is that with HD, there was no idea how to stream it, so HD internet was the last thing anyone was thinking of. We can yap about compression, but you know what? I'm totally OK with the HD video I stream from Amazon, Netflix, and YouTube through my Blu-ray player. The 3D streams are noticeably fuzzier than Blu-ray, but still, streamed, smothered, chopped and doubled 720p totally passes the straight face test.

(Credit to Kylee Wall for that Waffle House tech humor.)

And this time, ironically enough, it's going to be streams and downloads leading the way. Sony is already selling a 4K server with their 4K TVs that comes loaded with some of their movies (Taxi Driver! Yay! Beethoven! Ooops...), with a pretty decent download selection with reasonable prices for both rentals and purchases, and Samsung already has partnerships with Amazon to start streaming 4K in the next few months.

(For you tech nerds: the 4K big dog at Amazon is Ben Waggoner, the King of Compression. He was showing it at CES, and I can't imagine he'd miss NAB.)

I don't know if I should mention this, but my PHONE shoots 4K, and I gotta tell ya, the downcoverts over both HDMI and streaming are STUNNING. But c'mon, no reason to bring this up, because nobody in their right mind would dream of shooting anything important with their phone, right?

Right? RIGHT???

Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 3:26:55 am

[Tim Wilson] "So I would expect lots and LOTS of 4K/5K production for spots, music videos, corporate, and yes, even weddings, long before it's common in either features or broadcast."

You will get 4K acquisition for these things from people who rushed out to purchase the cameras because they felt it would give them an edge in getting work.

But they don't get paid any more for it over 1080p acquisition.

Hardly anyone I know in the wedding biz can get clients to accept Blu-rays. They are all shooting 1080 and delivering in 480. A lot of corporate in the big tech industries here is being mastered in 720p.

Features are already 4k/5k production, even keeping it mastered there. Your statement is completely backwards, save for broadcast.


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Steve Connor
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:01:49 am

[Tim Wilson] "What's especially interesting to me, though, is that indie shops, even one-man bands, get to this new tech long before features or TV do. While engineers were still arguing about how to deliver HD, event videographers were selling future-proofed wedding videos shot on HD.

The same was true with corporate video. You could shoot HD, and show it in the boardroom on plasma screens long before there was a way to broadcast it or put it on a disk. The smaller the scale project or shop, the easier it is to quickly adopt new formats -- and it's very much underway already.
"


Spot on, that's exactly what we're doing, a number of other small companies we know are just waiting for the release of the BMD 4K camera and the GH4 and they'll be doing the same thing.

We've been shooting 4K on our F55 for a while now, not because the customer asks for it, not because the customer pays for it but simply because it works better for us. It future proofs our rushes for library sales and it gives us more options in Post-Production for crops, stabilisation and effects.

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Steve Connor
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:39:12 am

BMD have just announced their 4K camera is now shipping and they've dropped the price to $2,995!

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k

Steve Connor

There's nothing we can't argue about on the FCPX COW Forum


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Tim Wilson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:45:26 am

[Steve Connor] "BMD have just announced their 4K camera is now shipping and they've dropped the price to $2,995!"

This is where it starts to get interesting: when you don't need to charge extra for 4K because there's no premium to produce it.

There are obviously infrastructure costs, but most Tube purchasers who are buying them to work in HD will have what they need for 4K. So, a relatively inexpensive camera, and voila.

No kidding, this happened with HD. The broadcast guys had a very hard time justifying it at first (and hey, the majority of my TV channels are still SD), but non-broadcast guys had a hard time justifying NOT doing it.

We're not quiiiite there for 4K, but for many people already, we're not NOT there either.


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Andre van Berlo
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:57:58 am

"BMD have just announced their 4K camera is now shipping and they've dropped the price to $2,995!"

now I'm very curious to see the price of the GH4 and that brick combined!
Also: The BMD4K can do recording on SSD's and has great dynamic range and has a bigger sensor so I'd love to see a comparison of the image quality.

All in all in the end Black Magic might still have an edge over the GH4 unless the GH has a really competitive price tag.


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 8:16:57 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "now I'm very curious to see the price of the GH4 and that brick combined!
Also: The BMD4K can do recording on SSD's and has great dynamic range and has a bigger sensor so I'd love to see a comparison of the image quality.

All in all in the end Black Magic might still have an edge over the GH4 unless the GH has a really competitive price tag."


The ability to shoot 4K directly in Prores HQ is a huge plus for me. And they dropped the price, I wonder what they will announce at NAB?


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Shawn Miller
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 8:35:19 pm

[Darren Roark] "The ability to shoot 4K directly in Prores HQ is a huge plus for me."

There is that too. I wonder how many people will see 8 bit 4:2:0 recording as a deal breaker when compared to 10/12 bit ProRes 422 and (later) compressed CinemaDNG. To me, it's a no brainier - ProRes/cDNG/global shutter handily beats every other feature on the GH4k... I don't even care about the sensor size, as I really like M43rds. I wonder if these cameras even appeal to the same markets.

Shawn



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David Lawrence
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 8:51:42 pm

[Shawn Miller] "To me, it's a no brainier - ProRes/cDNG/global shutter handily beats every other feature on the GH4k..."

Agreed. Speaking as a whip pan enthusiast, global shutter is especially appealing!

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tony west
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 2:48:39 pm

[Steve Connor] "not because the customer pays for it "

Speaking of spot on, they certainly won't pay for it.


It's amazing to watch camera manufactures cannibalize themselves.

How many will pay almost 30k for an f55 now that a two thousand dollar 4k is out there.

How does that drive down the day rate slowing down the paying off of an expensive camera.

interesting times.


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tony west
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 5:51:13 am

[John Heagy] "7 of 9 best picture nominees shot with the 2K Alexa.
"


Great, I will use this line when someone starts chirping at me for 4k : ))

FOX broadcast in 720

I always shoot 1080 30p to for a little more frame size.

When I think about how many stations and multi million dollar remote trucks I do sports out of that would have to toss their cameras out, I feel like it's gonna be a while for the networks.


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Gary Huff
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 4:51:56 pm

[tony west] "When I think about how many stations and multi million dollar remote trucks I do sports out of that would have to toss their cameras out, I feel like it's gonna be a while for the networks."

I do feel that 4K has a place in sports, with all the gee-whiz video effects they do, having a 4K origination from the camera to do 60p and do a crisp digital zoom in on the action (if outputting 720p60 or even 1080), that might be something that starts replacing those cameras with 4K equivalents.

Of course, getting 4K 60p in the first place requires a helluva lot of bandwidth.


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Tim Wilson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:21:25 pm

[Darren Roark] "I wonder what they will announce at NAB?"

You heard it here first: a time machine, bus-powered over Thunderbolt 2 or USB 3.


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 10:06:52 pm

[Tim Wilson] "You heard it here first: a time machine, bus-powered over Thunderbolt 2 or USB 3."

Awesome! The current going rate for plutonium is really cutting into my time traveling budget. That and Delorean parts are way too overpriced.


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tony west
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:56:23 pm

[Gary Huff] "Of course, getting 4K 60p in the first place requires a helluva lot of bandwidth."

Yes, and do they lack the will to even give up that much bandwidth?

Do they want to spend the $ after 3D fell on it's face?

We don't even do games in 1080 60p (only i for some) let alone 4k 60p

I could see some great sports shots coming out of it like you said but there are some hurdles.

We use the Phantom cam on certain shows now and everybody loves it, but with a large sensor cameras and prime lenses, tracking action is a little difficult some times. (We usually pick a spot and let action come into it)

Prime glass is great for a sit down interview and certain set up shots, but for covering moving action it's almost useless.

I find myself shooting with a f3 for certain things and the trusty EX1R for a press conference or run and gun.

I guess I would need 2 4K cameras, one for sit downs and one for action : )


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 9:31:46 pm

[tony west] "When I think about how many stations and multi million dollar remote trucks I do sports out of that would have to toss their cameras out, I feel like it's gonna be a while for the networks."

Precisely. Not only cameras, but switchers, converters, frame syncs, everything. You might as well back that truck right in to the ocean (or lake, since I live near one of the magnificent Great Lakes).

And then there's delivery. Think if you're a huge satellite or cable provider, you have to provide a new decoder box with new hardware to your subscribers.

As a consumer, you have to replace a fairly new TV with a brand new 4k TV. Besides Seiki, 4k TVs are typically $5,000 - $20,000+. Of course this price will change, but for now, the one guy in the neighborhood who had a laserdisc/projector setup will be the guy who has the one 4k TV in the neighborhood streaming 4k YouTube videos.

4k delivery, in my opinion, will mostly be an IP based delivery at first. It will be a splintered delivery on top of a fairly fractured market. Amazon will release a 4k IP box, Apple may release a 4K ready IP box, Roku, etc, and BluRay will release a 4k recommendation to be licensed by the major manufacturers, but delivered via IP.

Broadcast is going to take a long while.

4k acquisition, though, is here for the most part. Personally, we don't shoot 4k all of the time, but we do use it as a tool on certain gigs.

I think once you see Arri make a 4k Alexa, 4k will have arrived as there will be a true reason behind the resolution, whatever that may be.

Jeremy


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tony west
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 10:05:33 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "As a consumer, you have to replace a fairly new TV with a brand new 4k TV. Besides Seiki, 4k TVs are typically $5,000 - $20,000+. Of course this price will change, but for now, the one guy in the neighborhood who had a laserdisc/projector setup will be the guy who has the one 4k TV in the neighborhood streaming 4k YouTube videos."

This is why I think 3D fell flat. I never believed people would toss out their nice new HD TV for a 3D one.

And they didn't. At least, not enough did to keep it going. it just wasn't practical.

I don't see streaming 4K all that viable either to tell you the truth.

1. I don't see enough folks buying a 4k TV

2. Nobody wants to wait 3 hours for a movie to download.


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 10:23:07 pm

[tony west] "This is why I think 3D fell flat. I never believed people would toss out their nice new HD TV for a 3D one."

3D capability of a TV doesn't hurt the 2D at all. In many cases the 3DTVs are better in 2D as some models need stronger processors to display twice the frames for the 'active shutter glasses' type.

Nobody wanted to wear the stupid glasses.


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Tim Wilson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:16:11 pm

[Darren Roark] "Nobody wanted to wear the stupid glasses.
"


People will wear glasses for the right content. Over 80% of the audience for Gravity saw it in 3D. More than Avatar.

The larger problem is that the overwhelming majority of 3D movies bite. I'm a HUGE enthusiast, and other than the Hobbit, I can't remember the last 3D movie I saw and liked.

(Actually, stay tuned for Stalingrad, a Russian movie that'll have its US debut at the end of the month. Stunning on every level.)

More important, movies at home are a TERRIBLE business model. It's simply not sustainable for building a platform. Can you imagine if the ONLY reason to watch HD was movies? No way.

HBO and Netflix have learned this. They'll keep selling movies because it's easy, but they way they're making REAL money, now, and even moreso in the future, is off their original...what? Their original WHAT? Their original TV series.

And hey, it used to be boxing. Back in the early 70s, the only people I knew with HBO got it for the boxing. It's still around, but it's no longer the core of HBO's business model.

Movies are a core product for Redbox, but almost exclusively to the extent that HBO and Netflix are softening their grip on them.

You might disagree with my assessment of that, but it doesn't matter. LOL The only reason you can watch movies and sports in HD is because you bought an HD TV to watch TV shows.

It's the chicken and egg, and the egg always comes first...and last. 3D TV is on its last legs because there was never any 3D TV to actually watch. 4K will live and die by the same thing. Not the hardware. The software. For TVs, that's TV SHOWS. NOT MOVIES. NOT SPORTS.

For better AND for worse, you'll get a 4K TV when you want to watch the 2015 equivalent of Breaking Bad or Spongebob in 4K. No amount of remastered 1960s widescreen epics mixed with Adam Sandler in "Grown Ups 4K" is going to get you there before then.

But, to my earlier point, we're years away from 4K being driven by anyone but indie producers and filmmakers with snowflake workflows. Compelling content that isn't movies or sports will drive broadcast LAST. It happened with HD, and it'll happen with 4K.


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Darren Roark
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:56:25 pm

[Tim Wilson] "People will wear glasses for the right content. Over 80% of the audience for Gravity saw it in 3D. More than Avatar.

The larger problem is that the overwhelming majority of 3D movies bite. I'm a HUGE enthusiast, and other than the Hobbit, I can't remember the last 3D movie I saw and liked."


Oh I could not agree more! I love 3D, I even love watching it at home but I am in the minority. "Gravity" is my 'told you so' to all the friends of mine who vocally dislike 3D. I shoot and make shorts in 3D.

Using my wife as an example, wearing polarized glasses would put a cramp her style while she watches TV and multitasks with her iPad. This is how I see most people watch things at home nowadays.

This now totally OT. I could go on about when 3D is done right by people who care, it's amazing, just a PITA for most in the home. Also, the Russians are really pioneering post conversion software. What they are doing is starting to look better than shooting it stereo, which usually has to be converted anyway.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 12:08:33 am

[Tim Wilson] "People will wear glasses for the right content. Over 80% of the audience for Gravity saw it in 3D. More than Avatar."

Plot twist: Let us not forget that Gravity was shot in 2D!


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tony west
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21:07 pm

[Darren Roark] "3D capability of a TV doesn't hurt the 2D at all. In many cases the 3DTVs are better in 2D as some models need stronger processors to display twice the frames for the 'active shutter glasses' type.
"


Yeah, that's all good if you got extra money laying around for that type of thing.

Things are tight for many in this country. When things are going well us sometimes we forget what's going on with the rest. I didn't think people would spend their money on it.

[Darren Roark] "Nobody wanted to wear the stupid glasses."

they don't seem to mind wearing them when they go the theater, but again, they aren't spending that much cash to do that.


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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 10:18:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "4k delivery, in my opinion, will mostly be an IP based delivery at first. It will be a splintered delivery on top of a fairly fractured market. Amazon will release a 4k IP box, Apple may release a 4K ready IP box, Roku, etc,"

Yes, agreed, all movies or scripted series and all shot in 24... pointless 4K.

The only way to capture images that measure up to 4K rez is to shoot high frame rates. The "cult of 24" prevents this in the above productions unless it's "The Hobbit".

Sounds like sports might be the best use, but live 4K... ROFLOL... let me catch my breath. That means minimum 60fps 4K that's 12Gb. To really see sharp 4K it would take 120fps which means 24Gb. 24Gb routers, switchers... my head spins. Understand that 100Mb it the top data rate supported by EVS in collaborative truck workflows and ESPN broadcasts 720x960 DVCProHD.

John


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Andre van Berlo
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 9:46:33 am

Sorry for my noob question but why exactly would you need 60 or 120 frames/sec to get sharp 4K?

Wouldn't faster shutter speeds help?

Another question would be:
is 4K at 24fps looking better at 1080p vs something shot originally at 1080p at 24fps?

What I also don't understand yet is that people apparently can't spot the difference between 1080p and 4K unless they're really close to the screen but when shooting in 4K and then downsizing to 1080p makes for a better HD picture then when shooting in 1080p originally? There must be some logic in there but I don't see it yet...


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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 5:08:15 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "why exactly would you need 60 or 120 frames/sec to get sharp 4K? "

Try shooting a sharp image at 1/48 with a still camera.

[Andre van Berlo] "Wouldn't faster shutter speeds help?"

Yes, if you want everything to look like the Normandy scene of "Saving Private Ryan"

The only thing that makes 24p watchable is a heavy dose of motion blur.

[Andre van Berlo] "is 4K at 24fps looking better at 1080p vs something shot originally at 1080p at 24fps?"

Most 4K cameras are 4K sensors. That's not ideal in a single bayered sensor. Better to do what Arrir does which is basically a 3K sensor down sampled to 1080. This also applies to HD derived from 4K.

John


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Andre van Berlo
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 9:54:22 pm

"Try shooting a sharp image at 1/48 with a still camera."
Isn't that the same then for all sizes? whether it's 540p, 720p, 1080p , or 4K?
By that logic shooting at 720p with a 50mm lens with the same aperture, shutterspeed and fps would yield a result that is sharper than shooting the very same way only now with 4K.


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John Heagy
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 12, 2014 at 2:50:31 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "Isn't that the same then for all sizes? whether it's 540p, 720p, 1080p , or 4K? "

Yes

[Andre van Berlo] "By that logic shooting at 720p with a 50mm lens with the same aperture, shutterspeed and fps would yield a result that is sharper than shooting the very same way only now with 4K."

If by 720 you mean 720p60, and by 4K you mean 4K @ 30 or 24, and by shutter speed you mean shutter angle then yes that would present a sharper image to the sensor assuming the lens can resolve it.

John


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Richard Herd
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 7:15:12 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on Feb 11, 2014 at 7:32:12 pm

Nobody really likes to talk about this anymore, but it was a big deal when Red started claiming their camera was 4K (and it isn't).

But here you go: http://library.creativecow.net/galt_john/John_Galt_2K_4K_Truth_About_Pixels...

EDIT: adding the link to the video of Demystifying Digital Cinema Camera Specs





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Tim Wilson
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 7:48:02 pm
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Feb 11, 2014 at 8:05:51 pm

[Richard Herd] "Nobody really likes to talk about this anymore, but it was a big deal when Red started claiming their camera was 4K (and it isn't).

But here you go: http://library.creativecow.net/galt_john/John_Galt_2K_4K_Truth_About_Pixels....."


They may not talk about it much, but they read about it. It was one of our most-read articles last year, three years after it was first published.

He was certainly right to point out they hype behind claiming a camera was 4K it wasn't, but it's worth noting that Sony uses the phrase "True 4K" to describe the new F65, which they claim is the first camera to do what Galt says should be done, which is to have at least one photosite per pixel.

Sony has a fascinating PDF to talk about it. It was hard to miss that they used the same image that I did to show the "marketing pixels" illustration of Bayered processing -- not shocking, since it's from Wikimedia Commons -- but I'd like to think that their use of the image, PLUS their emphasis on "True 4K" in the F65 suggests that they read my article at some point. :-)

In any case, very interesting reading.


Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Richard Herd
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 9:23:25 pm
Last Edited By Richard Herd on Feb 11, 2014 at 9:28:50 pm

[Tim Wilson] "very interesting reading"

Thanks for the link. I read that article (or parts of it) about once a month.

I think the issue John Heagy was brining up is

[Tim Wilson's Article] "A number of years ago some IMAX engineers - and I don't think IMAX ever let these guys out of their lab again -- did this wonderfully elegant experiment at the Large Film Format Seminar at Universal Studios Imax theatre. They showed this film they made that began with 2 rows of 2 squares: black white, white black, as if you had 4 pixels on the screen.

Then they started to double and double and double the squares. Before they got to 4K the screen was gray. Do you know what the means? There was no longer any difference between black and white, which is what allows you to see sharpness. It's the contrast that we see, not the actual information. Technically, the MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) was zero at 4K! ...

This is why I honestly think that in the future, one direction we're going to have to go is to higher frame rates, not more pixels.

Somebody said that the perfect thing would be 60 frames a second at IMAX. Kodak would love that. [laughs].


EDIT: Regarding HDR, I asked once in the cinematography forum in anyone had ever tried modifying a 3-chip camera into an HDR motion capture. 3-ccds, one exposing for highs, one exposing for mids, one exposing for shadows. I keep thinking I'd like to try that with my AG-HVX200, but I'm not even sure where to begin.


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Franz Bieberkopf
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:20:41 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Besides Seiki, 4k TVs are typically $5,000 - $20,000+. Of course this price will change, but for now, the one guy in the neighborhood who had a laserdisc/projector setup will be the guy who has the one 4k TV in the neighborhood streaming 4k YouTube videos."

Jeremy,

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?id=pcat17071&type=page&st=4k&sc=...

I see about a dozen options in the 3000-5000 price range from Sony, LG, Toshiba, etc. (As an example, Sony has a 55inch UHDTV for 3000.00 there.)

I have no idea what people typically spend on TVs, but UltraHD seems to be on offering to the general (non-specialized) public.

Franz.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 10, 2014 at 11:29:16 pm

[Franz Bieberkopf] "I see about a dozen options in the 3000-5000 price range from Sony, LG, Toshiba, etc. (As an example, Sony has a 55inch UHDTV for 3000.00 there.)"

OK, then $2,999 - $39,999.

Even 3 grand is a lot to spend on a TV where you can barely watch anything in 4k.

I was in an electronics store this past weekend and the 'cheapest' 4k TV was $4999. I guess they have yet to catch up with Best Buy.


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Richard Herd
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 12:31:23 am

Most are still still shot on Kodak.


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Mark Raudonis
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 3:22:39 am

I'm a little late to this party, but I thought I'd chime in since the subject line mentioned "reality"!

We used 4k (Sony f 55) to shoot interviews this season for one of our reality shows. The creative called for TWO people on camera and we were able to use the extra pixels for "Punch ins" on closeups of either cast member. One frame equals THREE angles: WS, CU left cast, CU right Cast. Worked great and was actually a cost SAVER for us. One camera rental not three. One file not Three. I could go on, but the point is, 4K acquisition is a smart tool in the right circumstances.

Delivery in 4k is another conversation. My personal opinion is that it WILL happen, but NOT as quick as we think.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 3:52:08 am

[Mark Raudonis] "We used 4k (Sony f 55) to shoot interviews this season for one of our reality shows. The creative called for TWO people on camera and we were able to use the extra pixels for "Punch ins" on closeups of either cast member. One frame equals THREE angles: WS, CU left cast, CU right Cast. Worked great and was actually a cost SAVER for us. One camera rental not three. One file not Three. I could go on, but the point is, 4K acquisition is a smart tool in the right circumstances."

4k acquisition is a great tool for oversampling HD, and this is how we use it, currently.

Here's F55 footage used for three crops in one interview. The shot is framed at the second shot of the three.

6766_optics264.mov.zip

Oversampling is also used in real time, AJA's Corevid Ultra uses 4k images for realtime HD zooms: http://www.aja.com/en/news/top-stories/35

Jeremy


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Dave Gage
Re: 4K might become a reality quicker than we think
on Feb 11, 2014 at 7:27:25 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "
[Mark Raudonis] "We used 4k (Sony f 55) to shoot interviews this season for one of our reality shows. The creative called for TWO people on camera and we were able to use the extra pixels for "Punch ins" on closeups of either cast member. One frame equals THREE angles: WS, CU left cast, CU right Cast. Worked great and was actually a cost SAVER for us. One camera rental not three. One file not Three. I could go on, but the point is, 4K acquisition is a smart tool in the right circumstances."

4k acquisition is a great tool for oversampling HD, and this is how we use it, currently."


What a cool thread this is! For my meager tutorial needs, I don't need more than 720p at the moment, but the thought of pan and zoom with 4k footage in a 720p timeline is very cool. It will be some time before I can afford a luxury like 4k, but I already like the idea of it.

Dave


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