FORUMS: list search recent posts

Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Frank Gothmann
Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 3:08:24 pm

For quite a while now we are seeing some weird Prores (regular, HQ as well as 4444) glitches with material coming to us from a wide variety of sources, some of them very high profile Hollywood labs.

It’s not related to how we play or work with the files, it’s confirmed to be on the files themselves on any given system, Mac or PCs.
What we see is a digital glitch/dropout, always within the first two minutes of a file.

What we could find out so far is that:

- It affects approx every 1 out of 20 files (90 minute 1080 or 2k resolution).
- It can happen with files that are captured (card vendor doesn’t matter, no dropped frames reported during capture)
- It can happen with files copied to external or internal HFS+ or NTFS drives.

The sources are always clean.
It ONLY happens with Quicktime and only on Mac systems.

Doesn’t happen at all with DnxHD MXF, Cineform AVIs, HQX AVIs or DPX.

We had 40 of those files last year not passing our QC, all of them QT Prores. We had zero fails in non-QT formats.

We are suggesting now to not use Prores but unfortunately that’s what a lot prefer to deliver.

Anyone know more about this?

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Charlie Austin
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:12:05 pm

Have you bugged Apple about it? If it's a real, reproducible (or widespread) issue they'd likely be interested...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:31:21 pm

Will do, but want to see if anyone may have more info about it as it could be pretty much anything: Prores, Quicktime on Mac itself, OSX, filesystem implementation, drivers.
If remember reading about similar glitches with Prores here on the Cow a while back but search didn't get me any further and I cannot find the posts.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index


Charlie Austin
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:36:34 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "but want to see if anyone may have more info about it as it could be pretty much anything"

I'll keep an eye out, as most of the sources we get are prores as well. I have seen glitches on sources, but don't recall it being widespread. If I get some time maybe I'll go back and take a look at a few...

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


Return to posts index

Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:44:23 pm

Widespread is relative. 30hrs of content isn't something a lot of people are moving all the time I assume, especially when they are editing with various source formats, so 1 glitch per 30 hrs is something one may consider an unlucky event.
We are not editing so much but encoding, transcoding at lot of stuff every month so our turnover in material is a lot more so it's easier to see a problematic pattern, especially since it's coming from so many different suppliers and has passed QC at an earlier stage.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 4:54:41 pm

I'm curious if the decoder matters. Does ffmpeg see the same glitching as QuickTime does?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index


Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:11:59 pm

Yes, also present when viewed with Mplayer or Videolan. It's always 2-3 frames.
Here is a screenshot of the most recent example we ran into this morning (It's a screenshot because exporting just that frame gives just green, nothing else).




------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Herb Sevush
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:25:55 pm

I've seen that when encoding half hour shows in ProRes 422 for broadcast. Not often, not recently, but I've seen it and assumed it was a computer hiccup on my end during encoding. Major PITA, having to re-encode whole show, made me yearn for tape where I could fix with a simple insert edit.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:26:02 pm

By the way - I saw something like this a few years back on our old xsan storage where it was one particular drive that was failing but not reporting itself as failing so it would just write a few bad Bytes(?) of data that would give us weird looking artifacts on the prores files. The funny thing is, the problem would only exhibit itself on ProRes HD files. Not on ProRes SD or even on DVCPRO HD or anything else. It was like the chunk of data being delivered to the one particular drive on that raid was just big enough with ProRes HD to trigger the symptom. We wouldn't see it with smaller data rates written to the same storage. Some of the artifacts look similar to what you are seeing, but we would not get those big green hits. That is definitely more severe than what we saw.


Return to posts index


Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:34:06 pm

Up till now we thought it was a dropout related to failing error correction on HDCAM-SR decks, bad cabeling, disks etc. but it's just weird that it's always Prores QT, always during the first two or three minutes, never in the middle or the end, and that it's with all big labs happening time and time again under the same conditions.


[Keith Koby] "By the way - I saw something like this a few years back on our old xsan storage where it was one particular drive that was failing but not reporting itself as failing so it would just write a few bad Bytes(?) of data that would give us weird looking artifacts on the prores files. The funny thing is, the problem would only exhibit itself on ProRes HD files. Not on ProRes SD or even on DVCPRO HD or anything else. It was like the chunk of data being delivered to the one particular drive on that raid was just big enough with ProRes HD to trigger the symptom. We wouldn't see it with smaller data rates written to the same storage. Some of the artifacts look similar to what you are seeing, but we would not get those big green hits. That is definitely more severe than what we saw."

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:37:49 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Up till now we thought it was a dropout related to failing error correction on HDCAM-SR decks, bad cabeling, disks etc. but it's just weird that it's always Prores QT, always during the first two or three minutes, never in the middle or the end, and that it's with all big labs happening time and time again under the same conditions. "

Do all of these files hit the same storage? Does the storage have some kind of flash or ssd cache before it hits spinning disk?


Return to posts index

Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:43:25 pm

[Keith Koby] "Do all of these files hit the same storage? Does the storage have some kind of flash or ssd cache before it hits spinning disk?"

Don't know, many different labs with presumably very different set-ups and infrastructures. I have seen it also from clients who said it was a simple internal drive to external Firewire drive copy action.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index


Keith Koby
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:05:45 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Don't know, many different labs with presumably very different set-ups and infrastructures. I have seen it also from clients who said it was a simple internal drive to external Firewire drive copy action."


No I mean at your facility.


Return to posts index

Keith Koby
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:12:26 pm

Haven't seen anything here, but we are using xsan. We receive a lot of prores from studios and the various hollywood labs. Every output file gets visually QC'd and we haven't caught that. (Output vod files with a glitch would prompt us to go back and check the mezz.)


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 5:49:02 pm

I worked on a half hour series for Investigation Discovery and we had ProRes deliverables. Of the 33 shows delivered, only one had a glitch like you describe. I've delivered a countless short form promos and good half dozen hour long shows to other networks with no similar issues.

Frankly I've had more issues with DNxHD Quicktime files than ProRes. But DNxHD MXF Op1A...none.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index


Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 6:03:20 pm

Half hour series, 33 Shows delivers. 1 Hit.
Fits my pattern of 1 out of 20 for every 90 minute file delivered to us

[Shane Ross] " worked on a half hour series for Investigation Discovery and we had ProRes deliverables. Of the 33 shows delivered, only one had a glitch like you describe. I've delivered a countless short form promos and good half dozen hour long shows to other networks with no similar issues.

Frankly I've had more issues with DNxHD Quicktime files than ProRes. But DNxHD MXF Op1A...none."


We get very little DNxHD QT so I cannot tell with any certainty. But yes, MXF Op1A, error counter ist at zero. Same for our in-house HQX avi format.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

jon smitherton
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:21:33 pm

Hi

Kind of remember this glitch with Perian...do you have it installed?

Jon.



Return to posts index

jon smitherton
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:24:57 pm

Here you go- Perian and FX Factory perhaps?
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/final-cut-pro-x/512708-fcp-x-10-0-7-a.html



Return to posts index


Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:31:13 pm

No Perian, our main machines are not Macs, but the problem is baked in the files, its visible on PCs, Macs and on Linux clients, with us and with the clients who sent the files.

------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:41:17 pm

This used to happen with hardware captures and underpowered machines, they simply couldn't keep up with ProRes.

If you search for "ProRes Green Frames" you will see a lot of posts around the internet about it, but a lot of them were FCS3 specific (as well as Redcode specific).

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Frank Gothmann
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:48:05 pm

Whatever caused this in the past, it apparently got carried along because it is very much present today on file deliveries coming from big labs using speced out Macpros. Also, it's not just related to captures but also to simple file copies.
Also, it's not present with any uncompressed material and the data rate there is much, much higher.



[Jeremy Garchow] "This used to happen with hardware captures and underpowered machines, they simply couldn't keep up with ProRes.
"


------
"You also agree that you will not use these products for... the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons."
iTunes End User Licence Agreement


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Prores deliveries not making me happy - Glitches
on Jan 21, 2014 at 7:54:30 pm

[Frank Gothmann] "Whatever caused this in the past, it apparently got carried along because it is very much present today on file deliveries coming from big labs using speced out Macpros. Also, it's not just related to captures but also to simple file copies.
Also, it's not present with any uncompressed material and the data rate there is much, much higher."


It wasn't the data rate, it was the triple pass VBR compression.

Here's a post from a year ago that mirrors your findings exactly: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?93208-Green-frame-in-export-Any...

I don't have a cause or answer for you, unfortunately.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]