FORUMS: list search recent posts

Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
John Davidson
Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 18, 2014 at 10:47:49 pm

Ok, so I was a big advocate of Fusion Drives. They're still great mind you, but after experiencing the performance of the Apple PCI SSD's in the rMBP and Mac Pro, if you can afford it, get the SSD's. Jeremy G will back me up on this, they're phenomenal.

If you're not going to have something big like a Pegasus in tandem for bulky files, then yeah, get the Fusion. Otherwise, these SSD's are the cat's meow.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 18, 2014 at 11:23:53 pm

You are aware, though, that SSDs are not recommended for constant and repeated read-write? They should not be used for media drives, as they will not last as long as spinning disks and will also degrade in performance over time. SSDs should mainly be used for boot drives and applications. Fusion drives are of little benefit, because the stuff offloaded to the cache is content which is frequently accessed, like the OS and apps that are constantly used.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 12:32:25 am

But, you know, this...on a laptop.



When asked whether to get fusion or SSD, I now suggest SSD. I don't think anyone should seriously edit off of it - that's why we have big RAIDs, but it's pretty kick-butt when you're on the road and need to slap something together.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 4:56:48 am

The PCIe SSD is tremendous. Get some AppleCare, get to work, and don't worry about it.

I'm pretty sure the drive will last the life of the computer.


Return to posts index

Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:15:49 am

Hope you are right as I just bought a maxed out MacBook Pro Retina with 1 TB PCIe flash and will get a maxed out iMac around June I think with the same 1 TB flash. These are both for my girls and need to last a long time!

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 4:33:20 pm

[Rick Lang] "These are both for my girls and need to last a long time!"

I think we will be just fine.

They are remarkable machines. It is fun to use the laptop unplugged from anything and be able to throw a second screen up on an AppleTV and actually edit, preview effects, etc, for a few hours.

Can't wait to see how the MacPro performs. If it's anything like the rMBP, we will have a good time.


Return to posts index


Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 4:55:21 pm

Jeremy:
"It is fun to use the laptop unplugged from anything and be able to throw a second screen up on an AppleTV and actually edit, preview effects, etc..."

At some point I'll be able to use it to display on a UHD monitor at 30 fps (and it supports 4K at 24 fps).

Can't support a 4K workflow natively of course but still for my purposes editing using lower resolutions would be all right as long as I can generate 2K or UHD deliverables. Maybe I'll get to play with the MBPr (and the next version of the iMac) for a day. No purchases for my personal use until BMD delivers their production BMPC4K which I'm no longer expecting until after NAB2014.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 9:25:06 pm

[Rick Lang] "Maybe I'll get to play with the MBPr (and the next version of the iMac) for a day. "

You are a very kind father!


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:56:30 pm
Last Edited By Gary Huff on Jan 19, 2014 at 2:56:44 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I'm pretty sure the drive will last the life of the computer."

It's like the cheaper E-series P2 card media that had people worried about the lifespan. It was only rated for 5-years...if you filled it up and erased it every single day for those 5 years.

I got the 1TB SSD in my nMBPr, and I use it as a media drive. I also have AppleCare.


Return to posts index


Bret Williams
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:08:23 pm

Intel160gig is rated at 5 years if you write 20gigs a day and that's supposed to be pretty good. Smaller drives could survive less gigs and larger more gigs. Bit in any case with video editing the majority is reading which doesn't pose a problem. I rarely own a drive 5 years, and they should easily go 10. 5 or 6 years ago I was excited by my 250gig drive. In the 90s, we advertised we had 50gigs at our facility. I don't see these drives wearing out before we toss them out.


Return to posts index

Oliver Peters
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:12:40 pm

[Bret Williams] " I rarely own a drive 5 years,"

Really? I have plenty of drives that are older. When I buy new raw drives, I specifically look for WD Caviar Black (now just called WD Performance) because they have a 5 year warranty. Most drives are only 1-3 years warranty.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:18:35 pm

I have some 5 year old drives, but they certainly aren't being used much if at all. Either because they're USB 2 or fW 400/800. Or bare ATA. Now I'm using TB or USB3 and the sizes are much larger. So even as a drive reaches the 3 year point it's being relegated to the seldom used pile. And after the 3 year mark I have had lots of drives just go kaput.


Return to posts index


Oliver Peters
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:24:14 pm

[Bret Williams] "And after the 3 year mark I have had lots of drives just go kaput"

Yes, I agree, but these were likely not 5-year warranted drives. While a warranty is no guarantee of survival, most companies have run the math, which are really like insurance actuaries. At the end of warranty period the cost of repair becomes too high. That cross-over point determines the length of the warranty for a product. So, you are better off paying a bit more for a 5-year warranted product, than a 2 or 3-year product.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


Return to posts index

Bret Williams
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 7:40:46 pm

Like I said, I generally don't even have a use for a drive after 3 years. It's either old tech or too small, or newer bigger drives are just a better deal. I don't agree to pay more for a longer warranty on something I don't even know if I'll have use for. Drives are relatively cheap. I prefer saving the money and putting it toward a backup solution than a drive with better warranty. I don't ever buy extended warranties on anything either.

Kinda OT, but lately I've been using a newer tech guardian USB mirrored raid system to keep all my files that I don't want to lose. I started with 2 1terabyte drives. That filled up easily with photos and project masters. Then what I do, is take each of the mirrored drives and store them at separate family members homes. First I copy them to the new mirrored raid, which is currently 3terabytes. Those are relatively cheap seagates. Not the best, but they're mirrored. Both would have to encounter simultaneous problems. It'll be full in a year and I'll do the same and move to 4 or 5 terabyte drives. I also have a Pegasus tb raid 5 that I work off of as well as the pile of little usb3 and esata drives scattered about. The Pegasus chassis has had issues before and been repaired. But likely I'll want something faster as we move toward 4k. My 2terabyte esata graid is just sitting gathering dust. It's hooked up to the iMac, but I never use it. It's maybe 3.5 years old.


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 8:28:44 pm

Our technical philosophy is that anything over 3 years old needs to be replaced (drives, macs, storage, etc) if there's a better solution available. I think it's easier for us to adhere to this philosophy since we sell creative, not post. Post is merely bundled into our creative.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index


Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 26, 2014 at 10:06:23 pm

John, I got to play with my daughter's brand new Retina MacBook Pro yesterday for a few minutes so I downloaded the BMD SpeedTest app. 985 MB/s Write speed. As my 18 month old granddaughter would say, "Oh, wow!"

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

John Davidson
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 26, 2014 at 10:14:17 pm

It's impressive, right? Here's one funny thing we noticed. The 2013 iMacs max out at about 700MB/s read / write, which matches the speed of the SSD in the Macbook air. 700 is still great, but I guess Apple went with a different SSD for the iMacs and Airs.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 26, 2014 at 11:16:00 pm

Very impressive on the laptop indeed. Although people have helpfully suggested I shouldn't worry about putting one terabyte of flash in the new Mac Pro, these results may offer some validation. If I set aside half the internal flash for video, it would allow me to be self-contained for travel and be very productive for shorts with that portable desktop aka new Mac Pro. Of course self-contained may be a stretch because it still needs a monitor.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 27, 2014 at 2:16:17 am

[Rick Lang] "Although people have helpfully suggested I shouldn't worry about putting one terabyte of flash in the new Mac Pro, these results may offer some validation."

I don't see how you could not put 1TB in there. You almost have to.


Return to posts index

Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 31, 2014 at 11:07:49 pm

Further to John's observations about the speed of the internal SSDs, MacWorld just published their benchmark of the new Pegasus2 R6, on a Mac Pro using RAID 5:

Drive Black Magic Write Black Magic Read
Pegasus2 R6 (7200-rpm hard drives) 833 742 MB/s

Looking at Wikipedia:
The storage and data rates for the widely used YCbCr 4:2:2 chroma subsampling uncompressed video are listed below:

1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB per/sec, or 334 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB per/sec, or 445 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB per/sec, or 348 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB per/sec, or 463 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB per/sec, or 417 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB per/sec, or 556 GB per/hr.

Clearly HD is not a concern for very short duration work, but when you quadruple it for 4K (UHD) data rates:
10 bit @ 3840 x 2160 @ 29.97fps = 624 MB per/sec, or 2224 GB per/hr.

Clearly one isn't going to use the internal flash for storage of 4K video, but are the Pegasus2 write and read speeds going to provide a comfortable performance margin for 4K workflows? Or is an 8-bay RAID 5/6, the preferred and highly recommended option? Thanks for any comment you may have.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Feb 1, 2014 at 1:46:06 am

Those are uncompressed numbers. My guess is that you'll be using ProRes.

Aja makes a handy data calculator were you can calculate/observe, forwards and backwards, data rate, storage requirements, time allotments.

iOS:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/aja-datacalc/id343454572?mt=8

Mac:

http://static.aja.com/ajashare/ajasoftware/AJA_DataCalc_Mac.zip


Return to posts index

Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Feb 1, 2014 at 4:01:13 am

Jeremy, you are correct that normally ProRes 4:2:2 HQ would be the codec of choice and that's about 110 MB/s (884 Mbps) for 4K work if memory serves me correctly. I was curious what impact uncompressed video would be though to see if that was even feasible on the Pegasus2 R6. It appears it may be possible looking at the numbers but I've no experience with 4K, ergo my post.

I know an 8-bay will handle it, but that starts to get expensive. A Pegasus2 R4 in RAID 0 might as well but I hope to avoid that temptation and have the data redundancy of RAID 5 or 6. I remember someone advising to steer clear of a 6-bay configuration, but I'm not aware of the rationale for that warning. Perhaps it was just that RAID 6 on an 8-bay is the best insurance and performance.

Thanks for your advice re the calculator as I had forgotten that. I'll pick that up now.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Feb 1, 2014 at 4:30:30 am

A Pegasus will handle any form of ProRes. I'd buy the most you can afford, and work in ProRes.

Will you need real time uncompressed 4k edit, playback, and effects? You are going to need a small closet full of drives!

Raid 6 takes away two drives worth of capacity, so if you want Raid6, you'll want an 8 bay.

A 32TB 8x4TB Raid6 stripe becomes 24TB formatted.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Rick Lang
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Feb 1, 2014 at 5:26:12 am

Thanks, Jeremy. I'm going to take your advice and stay with a ProRes workflow. Makes everything manageable.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


Return to posts index

Michael Phillips
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2014 at 4:34:57 pm

And to add on to Oliver's great info, note that disaster recovery from SSD drives is extremely difficult to impossible. Not that I have first hand experience in this, but is what I heard from reputable drive recovery services. As with all drives, some sort of automated backup system should be in place.

Michael


Return to posts index

Jason Jenkins
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 20, 2014 at 1:12:16 am

[Michael Phillips] "And to add on to Oliver's great info, note that disaster recovery from SSD drives is extremely difficult to impossible. Not that I have first hand experience in this, but is what I heard from reputable drive recovery services. As with all drives, some sort of automated backup system should be in place. "

Yep. I had an OWC SSD blink out on me (never to awake again). It was less than a year old.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!

Check out my Mormon.org profile.


Return to posts index

Joe Valenti
Re: Changing my recommendation re fusion drives vs SSD's
on Jan 19, 2015 at 11:18:57 pm

Hello Oliver,

I trust your judgement. Would you recommend the standard 1TB Fusion drive over the 1TB Flash Upgrade in the new 5K IMAC Retina? We're not editing off the drive, just running Premiere, SpeedGrade and Media Encoder. Storage is currently Thunderbolt 2 and a fair amount of our footage is 4K UHD. We'll save some cash and upgrade all the ram to 32GB ourselves. Also planning to go with their higher-end graphic card and processor. Wanted to purchase a few of these for the 4K editors so we can really see our rushes.

By the way - our world is single stream only: We're a stock video pipeline.

Many thanks,

Joe Valenti
Clippn
http://www.clippn.com


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]