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FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections

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Michael Sanders
FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 2:53:35 pm

Why can't you have a smart or keyword collection in the root folder that would allow you to find media across a whole library - i.e. search every event. Now that would be super powerful and rock the world.

Imaging being doing reality and being able to look at every episode for say person x, or as a news producer being able to search for every clip of whatever/whoever.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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nick ring
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 3:33:14 pm

This is one of my issues with the move to libraries as well. There's a lot I like about it and I don't mind having library>event>projects so much, but to not have keywords at the highest organizing block (as we did with events in FCPX<10.1) is frustrating indeed. There may be a structural/database reason why it may be complicated, but that's not anything I'd know about one way or another.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 4:11:37 pm

[Michael Sanders] "Why can't you have a smart or keyword collection in the root folder that would allow you to find media across a whole library - i.e. search every event."

FWIW - the Search field at the top of the Browser does that. Type a clip name and it will search a full library and reveal the results.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Peter Gruden
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 4:58:50 pm

I'd prefer to have all the applied keywords listed somewhere, perhaps in Show clips menu, and when you select a keyword, all clips across all events with the same keyword applied would appear on the list.



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Trevor Asquerthian
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 6:02:54 pm

I would also like to be able to sift by modified date in smart collections



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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 6:07:45 pm

So the word you're looking for is "sort" by keyword. Not search. At least that's the way I look at it. When I hear search keyword, I think of search for something within a particular keyword collection(s) and you can do that as Oliver pointed out.

But what you're asking for didn't exist in pre-10.1 either, right?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 6:05:43 pm

You can search the whole Library by simply selecting the Library, but you cannot store metadata across Events as it is Event specific, and you cannot search for a keyword name.

This is one of the reasons why I don't think Events are necessary anymore.

Here's the discussion: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/63912

Jeremy


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Peter Gruden
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:14:46 pm

I don't mind events if they would be transparent for metadata. Right now they are more like physical folders and unnecessary limitation to the metadata concept, as is the search function.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:19:01 pm

[Peter Gruden] "I don't mind events if they would be transparent for metadata. Right now they are more like physical folders and unnecessary limitation to the metadata concept, as is the search function."

Yes, they would be fine if they worked with each other instead of against the Library.

Besides some sort of future sharing capabilities, I don't think there's a reason for Events, or if sharing actually happens, then they should be extended so that all the metadata functions can be used across Events, or, the Library gets to be the top most container level and not the Event.

Jeremy


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:30:50 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " Events as it is Event specific, and you cannot search for a keyword name."

I'm confused, are you sure about this J?


I have been searching by keywords by selecting the Library just fine.

I have all my subjects in my doc as individual events (I talked about why in the past) but I just go up to the Library in I need to and search that way.

Mostly I go right to the event I I know it's in and keyword from there.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:38:09 am

[tony west] "I have been searching by keywords by selecting the Library just fine."

I'm not sure I even understand the question. Why is anyone searching for keywords? They are right there in front of you as keyword collections, with a clearly visible name. Why do you have to do any searching?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Hans Douma
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Nov 10, 2014 at 3:13:21 pm

Oliver, as soon as you work with lots of events, you definitely need a way to search all of them for certain keywords. Keyword collections only exist at the event level and NOT at the library level. If you have only one or maybe even 5 events, you can expand the events and show the kw-collections but with any serious amount of events this is not gonna work.

I agree (smart) keyword collections should exist at the library level


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:46:16 am
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:47:31 am

[tony west] "I'm confused, are you sure about this J?"

Pretty sure.

You see here I have a Library with a clip in each Event.

I have one kw collection called Tony, and one called West:



When I do a search for Tony, nothing comes up:



And nothing comes up for West:



So, if I have a whole lot of Events with a lot of kw collections and need to find that kw collection, I have to manually search through all the Events for that kw.

Not only that, if I need both of these clips in each Event, then I have to keyword both of them separately in each Event, make sure that both clips are copied to each Event (a pain if the media isn't external), and then track and manually sync both sets of metadata.

I find this to be less flexible than when the were no Libraries and the Event was the top level of the sort, search, and tagging stack.

I'm not saying I don't like Libraries, I just don't like how Events work inside of Libraries.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:51:10 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So, if I have a whole lot of Events with a lot of kw collections and need to find that kw collection, I have to manually search through all the Events for that kw."

Methinks you guys have X confused with an asset management system. It isn't and likely won't be. But... FWIW - I can do this in Media Composer ;-)

But you are right - searches should be at the Library level. At this point, the way Events are constructed doesn't make a lot of sense. There is no need for them. I presume it's a vestige of the original faulty design.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:01:18 am

[Oliver Peters] "Methinks you guys have X confused with an asset management system."

Not really.

I just want to be able to search a Library across multiple Events and have it show me a piece of metadata that I added.

Or be able to Smart Collect across a whole Library instead of just one Event.

If that isn't possible, then let me hide Events so that I don't have to look at them.

These are all functions already built in to FCPX, and if they get extended to Libraries I don't think this suddenly makes FCPX an asset management system when I can already do this at the Event level.

And why do I need multiple Events? Well, there's good media management capabilities with Events. So, I would like this media management capability to be extended to collections as well.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:03:26 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Well, there's good media management capabilities with Events."

Such as? I don't follow. Why can't that be at the Library level?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:09:46 am

[Oliver Peters] "Such as? I don't follow. Why can't that be at the Library level?"

Well, if you follow the Finder trail, you can send Events and their contents to a new Library (just like you can a Project).

You can move, copy, consolidate.

All of this happens within a folder that is named after the Event.

Currently, this can't happen with a collection or smart collection, it has to be a whole Event.

I wish it was at the Library level, but even in the Finder, there's no media in Library level, it's all in the Event folder with its own Event database.

Here's the Finder structure for the Tony West keywords I sent.



The Event structure in the Finder is mirrored (more or less) in the Library.



Jeremy


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:12:09 am

I don't do this very much. But isn't it the same as pre 10.1? To search multiple events you'd have to highlight multiple events? Certainly it could be improved, but I'm not sure we lost any function.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:17:47 am

[Bret Williams] "I don't do this very much. But isn't it the same as pre 10.1? To search multiple events you'd have to highlight multiple events? Certainly it could be improved, but I'm not sure we lost any function."

It's not that we lost anything, it's just that we didn't gain much.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:23:35 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's not that we lost anything, it's just that we didn't gain much."

The fear I have is that this is still a midway transition. Once we all get comfortable with Libraries that contain Events and design workflows around that, Apple is just as likely to change it again. They might eliminate Events altogether - other than as simple organizing folders.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:27:16 am

[Oliver Peters] "They might eliminate Events altogether - other than as simple organizing folders."

I hope so, anything to make the Library the top level of media management.

Jeremy


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:28:17 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I hope so, anything to make the Library the top level of media management."

Aah... FCP 8 ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:32:50 am

It's what everyone wanted, right?


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:53:30 am

Yeah. As it stands libraries are a replacement for event manager which also comes with additional media management benefits. But you're right. Within the app, no real functional benefit.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:59:09 am

Again, I'm not against Libraries, I just wish Events worked differently within them.

Otherwise, they are a welcome addition.


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:49:37 am

OK I got you.

That does seem weird that it doesn't find those names.

But if I type in just Paul it will find any of his pics or Kleba (who is in another event) and is talking about Paul that's a marker or sound.








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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:52:12 am

[tony west] "But if I type in just Paul it will find any of his pics or Kleba (who is in another event) and is talking about Paul that's a marker or sound."

Yes. You can search for other metadata at the Library level, I just want more.

;)

How's the Library performing with all your clips?

Jeremy


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:03:12 am

[Jeremy Garchow] " I just want more."

I like that you keep pushing.



[Jeremy Garchow] "How's the Library performing with all your clips?"

So far it's working pretty well for me but I'm still trying to get reorganized with it.

I was already organizing in a admittedly unorthodox way : )

But everything transferred right over.

I still have all of my subjects of the doc in their own events that contain their sit down, pics, documents
and such. I like seeing them in order by name and I can just select that event as I get to their section.

Out of all these files I have I have not had anytime wasted looking for anything so far.


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:14:08 am

I do miss seeing the HD icon in the window that showed what drive my event was on.

Not sure why that had to go away : /


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 8, 2014 at 6:11:22 am

[tony west] "I do miss seeing the HD icon in the window that showed what drive my event was on."

FWIW, if you think of libraries as analogous to the HD icons that contained your 10.0 Events, everything works pretty much exactly the same. KW collections always needed to be in an Event. I don't recall being able to select a Drive in the browser pre 10.1 and search for KW collections in the various events on that drive... At least I never did... could you?

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 8, 2014 at 12:55:24 pm

No, I was really talking about just being able to see the HD Icon in the event browser window.


See how I could see TB 1 and TB2 icon below?

Now you can't tell by looking what drive things are on unless you label it that in the name, but that's extra typing.

Not the end of the world, I just liked it better the other way.






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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 8, 2014 at 1:07:53 pm

[Charlie Austin] "FWIW, if you think of libraries as analogous to the HD icons that contained your 10.0 Events, everything works pretty much exactly the same."

That's the problem. It should work better, or at least have more flexibility instead of the same, and arguably less.

Besides much easier Finder interaction, and mount/unmount, what is the point of a Library if it's going to treat Events as separate entities? We already had that 'capability', you know?


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:46:08 am

Yeah, those clips all have the word paul in them. In fact, you can't search for keywords at any level now that I think about it, you can't search for keywords at any level. Library or event. If you were searching at the event level, you'd just click on the keyword, so I suppose they see it as a pointless action.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:56:17 am

[Bret Williams] "so I suppose they see it as a pointless action."

Right, but that was back when there was typically one Event per job.

Now that all of that has changed, it seems the search and sort capabilities should change, too.


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 5:45:58 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "that was back when there was typically one Event per job"

I'm up to 42 events in this documentary and I find it faster to.....

1. click the Event (for me the person's name)

2. click the collection (interview or pics)

I can make those two clicks faster than I can type the name out.

At most 3 clicks if I have to twirl it down.

Since they are in alphabetical order I go right to them visually.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 12:57:14 pm

I have been of the belief - and I continue to believe with 10.1 - that you are best off to have the fewest possible events. I think it is the best for the database overall. Currently I would suggest to group events by type. So events for Footage, Graphics, Music/SFX, Sequences.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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tony west
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:52:24 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Currently I would suggest to group events by type. So events for Footage, Graphics, Music/SFX, Sequences."

I actually have done that,

Music
B-roll
VO
Motion

and such

but I still like the subjects in their own events, the reason is in this doc there are a lot of files that come along with each person such as government documents, case forms and their pics and such.

(I first started this when people were complaining about events getting corrupted and I wanted to separate them. Have not heard about that happening in a while, knock on wood)


Let's look at Denise for an example below.

She has over 150 elements in her event alone and she is only one of 40 subjects so far.

I simply click on her name







Then I click on work history and I'm there.






I measure speed in number of clicks.


I can run through over 1500 files in 2 clicks with no typing.

For me it's working great and the system has had no problem handling all these events.


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 6:20:57 pm

This is the only reason I can see to have events still. It could be accomplished in a single event with a folder or the interviewee instead, BUT, the keywords within that folder couldn't be the same as keywords within another folder. That's the only gotcha. So if you wanted to have keywords for each interviewee that are generic like documents, pics, etc. then in a single event environment you could accomplish this exactly the same way, but you'd simply have to give the keyword collections names like Interviewee 1 pics, interviewee 1 docs, etc.

I think likely it's the amount of clips that is the big problem, not the number of events. Sure less events would be a little less overhead, but here's hoping it's all about the total number of clips nowadays.


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mark verkerk
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jul 20, 2014 at 11:57:37 am

Jeremy, interesting discussion but as I understand it you can search for keywords at the Library level across multiple Events but you need, in your example to type Tony or West in a Keyword field in the Search Box.

Click on the magnifying glass icon in the Search Field or type Cmd-F with the Browser selected, then with the 'plus' button top right create a Keyword field. Just typing directly into the Search Field gives by default a Text search, which searches only text in the Name, Notes, Markers or Favorites fields - so not keywords.

What would be nice is at the Library level to then be able to save that search as a Smart Collection - only possible at Event level so far...

btw i still see a use in having multiple events when working with large libraries, especially with heavy files like r3d. By only having to load the clips from a single event at one time the software works much more smoothly (at least on my 2011 MacPro). Having to load all the clips in the library in one go slows things down significantly.

Mark


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Michael Garber
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:19:44 pm

I'm working on a job with a Library that contains 18 Events. I'm reverting to creating selects sequences.

It would also be nice to be able to search for an event name if you have a long list of events.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company
Blog: GARBERSHOP
My Moviola Webinar on Cutting News in FCP X


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:23:08 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Jan 6, 2014 at 8:54:37 pm

Libraries are FCP7 projects. Events are now Avid Bins. Only a bit less versatile.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bret Williams
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 12:26:11 am

You mean more versatile (sharing aside) right? Avid bins don't have key wording, smart collections, etc.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 12:49:41 am

[Bret Williams] "You mean more versatile (sharing aside) right? "

No, in the context of the comments, I do mean LESS. The question was whether you could do smart functions across Events. In Avid, you can use an advanced Find tool that will search across all bins (opened or closed) and populate the results in a window. And bins have custom sift functions that let you show/hide clips based on user criteria. There are also multi-level sorts and far more user-created custom columns.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 12:38:33 am

do you think apple are consciously looking to create shareable avid bin objects going forward, or is this just them brute forcing a library container object around events and projects? with resulting complications for keyword collections?

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 1:49:41 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "do you think apple are consciously looking to create shareable avid bin objects going forward, or is this just them brute forcing a library container object around events and projects?"

The latter. I don't believe Apple thinks there's a big enough niche for Avid-style project sharing. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see FCP X become iCloud-aware in some way down the road. There is interest in easy collaboration via XML, but concurrent workflows? I doubt it.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 2:14:52 am

if there is no larger goal, given it is the single notable feature resulting from a year of development, this feels like crazy inside baseball.

being realistic - who as an observer is supposed to care at this point?

who actually thinks the outstanding issues are going to be fixed to a commercial use timescale given the software pays apple dust and they aren't even requesting upgrade money? Is everyone out of their minds? Apple are not a commercial software vendor. Why would any sane editing professional pitch their tent by the side of a capricious mount olympus?

granted aside that the trainers, hucksters, x workflow consultants and x t-shirt sellers will be the last ones to leave.

tiny, tiny rant there.

http://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 3:01:07 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "who actually thinks the outstanding issues are going to be fixed to a commercial use timescale given the software pays apple dust and they aren't even requesting upgrade money?"

Regardless of whether we believe ProApps is serious about making pro software (and I believe they are), the point of X is to be the killer app to showcase the new Mac Pro. If it helps sell more tubes, then the R&D is justified to Cupertino.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 7, 2014 at 4:10:16 pm

Least people forget. Avid is a hardware vendor as well. Blackmagic is for that matter too (consider Resolve's popularity).

Apple's motiveā€¦ if you like FCPX you HAVE to use it on a Mac. If you like Avid and Premiere Pro you can certainly move to a Windows only PC.

Adobe is software and service (and PPro isn't the biggest piece of that pie either) and, with no hardware to sell, they're now taking your subscription payment.



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Michael Garber
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 9:09:02 pm

I'm taking back on my last post. Still better to make favorites and filter by favorite in the browser vs. selex timelines. Reason #1: used media ranges. Quite helpful at the moment.

So my wish is that there would be a way to save a smart collection to the root of the library. Also, would be great if you could search for keywords by text entry vs having to scroll through the list in the search filter box.

Michael Garber
5th Wall - a post production company
Blog: GARBERSHOP
My Moviola Webinar on Cutting News in FCP X


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: FCP X 10.1 keywords & smart collections
on Jan 6, 2014 at 9:09:56 pm

Please send feedback to Apple: http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Jeremy


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