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Things could get... interesting...

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Charlie Austin
Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 2:39:20 am
Last Edited By Charlie Austin on Dec 21, 2013 at 2:43:05 am

http://www.10dot1.co.uk/guides

:-)

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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 3:35:22 am
Last Edited By Jeremy Garchow on Dec 21, 2013 at 3:35:34 am

Whatever dude.

Libraries are shite.

:-D


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Charlie Austin
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 4:27:27 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Whatever dude.

Libraries are shite."


Yeah, you're right. I guess I should give up trying to pretend I like X too. I've been working in 7 an Pr this week. I Love Tracks!


:-P

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 5:47:48 am

There's a lot of great info in there. Thanks for sending this.

Jeremy


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Charlie Austin
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 6:14:21 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "There's a lot of great info in there. Thanks for sending this."

Yeah, very nicely laid out. Someone linked to it on a FB group and I thought it should get a wider view. :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Bob Woodhead
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 1:38:18 pm

Ditto on the thanks. This is a fantastic read.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 3:33:18 pm

I think maybe your griping about my opinion here because I seem to be one of the few here not completely behind the new library structure. Let me clarify my position here so it's not misrepresented.

I'm not against the library structure. I see future efficiencies it will create. But these are created at the expense of more manual management of files, at least for me.

I'd be 100% behind it if they had done three things differently:

1. Allowed you to use material from a different library without having to copy media files or event files.
2. Allowed you to also externally locate render and transcode files
3. In the conversion to libraries allowed you to convert from managed files to external files leaving all media in place.

It makes using events across multiple libraries inconvenient. Since this is what I do all the time it is an inconvenience. I basically have to create multiple versions of the same event. This means if I favorite part of a clip in an event for one library it won't show up in another library that I use the same event. Sometimes that's okay, sometimes it makes thing inefficient. I have to go favorite the same stuff again. Now if I'm super organized I can copy the event that I've modified to the other library. But quite frankly, I don't have a staff like you do. I have to rely on my memory about which event I last modified and I don't have time for this kind of manual management. I wish a did, but reality intervenes.

When moving libraries around, you'll have to delete all the render files and transcodes to get them to a size that can be portable - again manual management. I'm hoping for a utility that will duplicate and backup a library and strip out all the render, thumbnail and transcode files automatically.

Then finally, the conversion to the new library system I don't think is particularly well-implemented. As I've said in other posts, they should have allowed you to convert events and projects from managed to external media leaving all existing media in place so you don't have to create these new gigantic library files that waste hard disk space and take a lot of time and risk. But maybe I'm not completely understanding how it works.

What I can't quite understand is why they made it impossible to utilize material from another library without copying it into your current library. I'm sure there is a reason for this, but it would make my life a lot easier if I could.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 8:07:51 pm

[Brett Sherman] "I think maybe your griping about my opinion here because I seem to be one of the few here not completely behind the new library structure. Let me clarify my position here so it's not misrepresented."

No, I am sorry. I am not griping to you or to anyone. I apologize.

[Brett Sherman] "I'm not against the library structure. I see future efficiencies it will create. But these are created at the expense of more manual management of files, at least for me."

I think that you had a workflow down and it suited what you needed to do. This update has addressed a lot of concern for other people who the 10.0 FCPX media management was unsuitable.

[Brett Sherman] "1. Allowed you to use material from a different library without having to copy media files or event files. "

I would like media to be able to live in a Library by itself to. For now, it must live in an Event. If you read the various whitepapers and 3rd party guides, you will learn that media is only copied when it's managed in the Event, and when the media has been generated. The generated media is still a problem as it was in 10.0. It has to live in a Library unless you manually move it out. If the media is managed media in a Library, it is very easy to move the media OUT of the Library before copying using Consolidate. After you Consolidate it out of the Library, then moving clips around only moves the symbolic link around. Externla media stays where it is.

[Brett Sherman] "2. Allowed you to also externally locate render and transcode files"

This has been an issue with FCPX since the inception. There are at least, better methods for handling the media upon import which means that a Library can remain relatively small, even if that means deleting render files from time to time.

[Brett Sherman] "3. In the conversion to libraries allowed you to convert from managed files to external files leaving all media in place."

You can do that afterwords with Consolidate.

[Brett Sherman] "It makes using events across multiple libraries inconvenient. Since this is what I do all the time it is an inconvenience. I basically have to create multiple versions of the same event. This means if I favorite part of a clip in an event for one library it won't show up in another library that I use the same event. Sometimes that's okay, sometimes it makes thing inefficient. I have to go favorite the same stuff again. Now if I'm super organized I can copy the event that I've modified to the other library. But quite frankly, I don't have a staff like you do. I have to rely on my memory about which event I last modified and I don't have time for this kind of manual management. I wish a did, but reality intervenes."

I don't have a staff. There's only several of us and we certainly don't have assistants t track our every move.

If you need to have favorites show up in multiple Events, you have to come up with a way of updating your Events to the other machine. The media management whipper has a few suggestions, as well as the document linked in Charlie's original post. It will take a little but of retooling, but if it's for the best, then it may be worth it.

Just like FCP 10.0, if you have duplicate copies of the media in the two separate places you need to be, then relinking and sharing is pretty easy.

[Brett Sherman] "Then finally, the conversion to the new library system I don't think is particularly well-implemented. As I've said in other posts, they should have allowed you to convert events and projects from managed to external media leaving all existing media in place so you don't have to create these new gigantic library files that waste hard disk space and take a lot of time and risk. But maybe I'm not completely understanding how it works."

I think you should use Event Manager X, as it's now free. It allows you to move in smaller increments and keep things organized and make multiple Libraries per drive:

http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2013/12/upgrade-your-events-and-project-to-fc...

FCPX allows you to save all of your old Events and Projects. There's minimal risk.

If the media is external to begin with, the media stays external. If it is not and you want it to be, you can make it external with a simple command. Generated media (high quality and proxy) will be managed in the Library. As of right now, I don't think there's a way to make Generated media Extenral media, which is unfortunate.

[Brett Sherman] "What I can't quite understand is why they made it impossible to utilize material from another library without copying it into your current library. I'm sure there is a reason for this, but it would make my life a lot easier if I could."

If you move any of those libraries, that means the link to the footage, if it wasn't in the Library, would vanish. A piece of media, or link to it, has to be in the library in order for FCPX to know where it is.

Render files and generated media can be recreated.

Jeremy


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Brett Sherman
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 23, 2013 at 3:32:14 am
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Dec 23, 2013 at 3:33:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "No, I am sorry. I am not griping to you or to anyone. I apologize."

No need to apologize, I was really being a bit facetious and took no offense. I hope I didn't offend you either. I appreciate the info. Ultimately the problem with the transition is that neither of the methods recommended works for me.

Apples method - Open everything and it will create gigantic libraries for you. I'd have to open around 200 sparse bundles and since I'm using managed media with projects that span multiple drives I'm not even sure how it would attempt to handle it.

Event Manager X method - I could do this, but it would probably require double the hard drive space (at least). Why? Because I tend to use the same events in multiple projects. If I convert each project one by one it's going to create new media for the same event over and over again.

My solution - which I need to test and is on theoretical at this point. Is to make all my events have unmanaged media BEFORE I transition. This way FCP X doesn't even attempt to move media files around. Basically I take all the media out of the "Original Media" folder in the event file (in a sparse bundle). Move it to a folder on my NAS server. Relink the files in 10.0.9. Do this for all 150 or so events I have that are managed. Then upgrade to 10.1. Now I can update project by project, because doing so will only create duplicates of the event file and not the media itself.

The advantage of this method is that I shift all my media to external media, which it's going to need to be going forward. And there is no rush updating projects. I can do them as needed in the future. But still have access to the events for current projects. It's also backward compatible to 10.0.9. I just leave my projects and events in place with linked media instead of managed media. So I can keep plugging away in 10.0.9 until I've got them all done.

Regardless, this is going to be time consuming. And thank god I've only been using FCP X for a year. Ironically, it may slow down my purchasing of a Mac Pro. I can't buy it until I'm done all this.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 23, 2013 at 6:24:14 pm

[Brett Sherman] "No need to apologize, I was really being a bit facetious and took no offense. I hope I didn't offend you either. I appreciate the info. "

None taken. We are all good!

[Brett Sherman] "Ultimately the problem with the transition is that neither of the methods recommended works for me.

Apples method - Open everything and it will create gigantic libraries for you. I'd have to open around 200 sparse bundles and since I'm using managed media with projects that span multiple drives I'm not even sure how it would attempt to handle it."


When you open FCPX, simply don't hit the update button and nothing gets updated.

In your sparse bundles, are those usually self contained jobs? Or do you have multiple jobs in each bundle?

If each sparse bundle is it's own job, you open the sparse bundle, choose File > Update Projects and Events, click locate, and then FCPX updates to a Library. You then choose "Save" to save the old versions in case you need them.

If you have multiple jobs, use Event Manager X to load only what you want to update, then update and FCPX creates a new Library. Then load some more, update to another Library.

[Brett Sherman] "Event Manager X method - I could do this, but it would probably require double the hard drive space (at least). Why? Because I tend to use the same events in multiple projects. If I convert each project one by one it's going to create new media for the same event over and over again."

So on your first one, Consolidate the media to a central location and then relink all your other Events to that media. Then, get rid of what you don't need.

[Brett Sherman] "My solution - which I need to test and is on theoretical at this point. Is to make all my events have unmanaged media BEFORE I transition. This way FCP X doesn't even attempt to move media files around. Basically I take all the media out of the "Original Media" folder in the event file (in a sparse bundle). Move it to a folder on my NAS server. Relink the files in 10.0.9. Do this for all 150 or so events I have that are managed. Then upgrade to 10.1. Now I can update project by project, because doing so will only create duplicates of the event file and not the media itself."

Original media will simply stay original media in the sparse bundle.

You can then consolidate it out if you'd like and trash the original media folder from your old Events (which you just saved).

[Brett Sherman] "Regardless, this is going to be time consuming. And thank god I've only been using FCP X for a year. Ironically, it may slow down my purchasing of a Mac Pro. I can't buy it until I'm done all this."

I'm not sure it's going to be as big of a deal as you think it is, especially since everything is already organized by sparse bundle. I think you are going to be just fine.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 24, 2013 at 12:48:00 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "
In your sparse bundles, are those usually self contained jobs? Or do you have multiple jobs in each bundle?"


Actually multiple bundles per job. Jobs typically use between 1 and 7 bundles though I have one with I think 50. And the same bundle may be used for many different jobs which have their own unique set of bundles they need. If you could look at a diagram of sparse bundles to jobs, it would look like a web. I think that's where the complication comes in.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. So when FCP X 10.1 creates a new library does it copy media from the old event file into the new library event? I thought this was the case.

Say I have two Jobs A & B that both use event X. They are in separate bundles. First I mount Job A and event X and convert them to a library. Then I Consolidate the event X to the NAS server.

Can I then convert Job B without event X mounted and then drag event X from Library A into Library B? Will FCP X understand this as the same event that has gone missing in Job B after I've already made a library out of it?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 24, 2013 at 2:24:11 am

[Brett Sherman] "Actually multiple bundles per job. Jobs typically use between 1 and 7 bundles though I have one with I think 50. And the same bundle may be used for many different jobs which have their own unique set of bundles they need. If you could look at a diagram of sparse bundles to jobs, it would look like a web. I think that's where the complication comes in. "

That certainly seems confusing.

When you open a job, how do you know which 50 bundles to open?

Since you have a NAS, libraries won't work with anything but NFS Shares, so sparse bundles are probably still necessary BUT they only have to contain Libraries, any Generated media, and render files.

You can now keep your media on the NAS available for all to see and use.

[Brett Sherman] "I'm trying to wrap my head around this. So when FCP X 10.1 creates a new library does it copy media from the old event file into the new library event? I thought this was the case."

If your media is already external, it will not copy the media in to the Library. If your media is managed, the media will stay managed in the Library.

[Brett Sherman] "Say I have two Jobs A & B that both use event X. They are in separate bundles. First I mount Job A and event X and convert them to a library. Then I Consolidate the event X to the NAS server.

Can I then convert Job B without event X mounted and then drag event X from Library A into Library B? Will FCP X understand this as the same event that has gone missing in Job B after I've already made a library out of it?"


What is Job A now? A Project? Or a bundle?

Job B has to have a Library as well, so you'd have to have a Library on Job B, and yes, you could copy your Event from Job A to Job B. If you have already Consolidated the managed media out of the Library, then you'd delete the media out of the Event, update to a Library and relink Job B to the media on the NAS.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 25, 2013 at 4:55:02 pm
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Dec 25, 2013 at 4:59:09 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When you open a job, how do you know which 50 bundles to open?"

Easy. Create a folder in sparse bundle that contains my projects(timelines) called "Bundles to Launch". While I'm working on the project when I've mounted a sparse bundle that contains an event I use in the timeline, I drop an alias of the drive in that folder. Then the next time I open the "Bundles to Launch" folder and OS X goes through and mounts all the sparse bundles for me.

It worked pretty well. Kept the number of events open down. But my new workflow will have to be more based on the timeline with supporting events dragged into the library from some sort of repository. The tricky thing with this is the location of the events is going to be divorced from the location of the media. With my previous system, events and media always resided on the same volume. Now, I'll have to maintain a list of the logical drives that need to be mounted for each job. Probably a similar "Drives to Launch" folder.

The advantage of the new system is that more than one person can work with the same media at a time. Before that wasn't possible. Although the times that happened were extremely rare. There are two of us and we don't work concurrently on the same job.


[Jeremy Garchow] "What is Job A now? A Project? Or a bundle?

Job B has to have a Library as well, so you'd have to have a Library on Job B, and yes, you could copy your Event from Job A to Job B. If you have already Consolidated the managed media out of the Library, then you'd delete the media out of the Event, update to a Library and relink Job B to the media on the NAS."


I guess I'm using Job and Project interchangeably. A Job to me is one or a few timelines (projects) on the same subject.

My question is what does FCP X do when you convert a project that uses an event that is missing? Can it later recognize that event if it comes from another library that you've already converted?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 26, 2013 at 7:31:21 pm

[Brett Sherman] "Easy. Create a folder in sparse bundle that contains my projects(timelines) called "Bundles to Launch". While I'm working on the project when I've mounted a sparse bundle that contains an event I use in the timeline, I drop an alias of the drive in that folder. Then the next time I open the "Bundles to Launch" folder and OS X goes through and mounts all the sparse bundles for me."

I see. Very interesting.

I think, if you wanted, you can simplify this process with Libraries.

Libraries would be in the bundles, media would not. Launch the library you need, dupe it if you have to, libraries share the same media.

[Brett Sherman] "My question is what does FCP X do when you convert a project that uses an event that is missing? Can it later recognize that event if it comes from another library that you've already converted?"

If you open a Project that came from an Event that is now in a Library, you would let fcpx bring the new Project in to a new library. At this point, you either move the new Project to the first Library, or simply relink the media that is already on the NAS to the new Library.


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Michael Sanders
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 3:35:15 pm

Yep very interesting and as you say could potentially put a cat among pigeons.

My one qualm over the paper (and elsewhere) is that it doesn't make crystal clear that libraries need to reside on a fast drive. Render files still live inside the event folder so need to live on a fast drive otherwise performance will suffer.

Whilst I think the new structure is in someways better I would still like a way of keeping render files outside the event folder. But hey Still better than most. That said I thought the previous layout would work amazingly in a news bureaux.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Michael Sanders
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 21, 2013 at 9:33:44 pm

After reading this further.. here's what I don't get.

Why did they go down the route of locking libraries. If its all just metadata and symlinks why can the lock file be on the project - which makes sense. Why can't libraries and event's be active across many users at once. Now that media has to be in the library the new system is a bit of a pain for big shows (say a reality show) that may want to access material from other shows.

It would make far more sense if the you could have the library called "Reality show season 1", then an event called "Ep 1". All the media for EP 1 lives in that event, along with the edits. You could have compound clip or project file called "Pt 1" and another called "Pt 2" with different editors working on Pt 1 and 2. The lock could be on the compound clip or project file so the media could be accessed by anyone.

At least that way an editor working on EP 2 (itself an event in the master library) could be use material from Ep 1.

No that I know much about these things (my UNIX is very very rusty) but isn't it just down to which file is locked?

Michael Sanders
London Based DP/Editor


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Things could get... interesting...
on Dec 22, 2013 at 2:16:43 pm

For whatever reason, FCPX does not allow the mounting of read only databases.

In Avid, the way sharing works, is that one person has read/write acess to a bin, and read only access to everyone else's bins.

You can look at other editors bins, but you can't save anything new in to their bins. You can pull stuff from other peoples bins in to your bin and continue working. Then if someone needs what you've done, they pull it back to their bin.

If FCPX allowed read only browsing of libraries, it could work very similarly.

Ironically, when fcpx has the separate Event/Project structure, I thought that it made sense from a sharing perspective. Eventually, editors would have access to read only Events, they could have thier own Event, and they could create a Project that had Events from both media. If you needed to move anything FCPX could take the media in the project, and send it anywhere you needed, creating a new Event in the process. X was very good with projects telling you exactly which Events your Project media was located.

Now, I'm not sure. I have to do some more testing and try to see what's going on.


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