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Truly depressing...

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Lance Bachelder
Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 6:30:50 pm

This "December" wait is killing me! C'mon Apple remember the "pro's" for a sec...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Craig Seeman
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 6:38:22 pm

Agreed.
To me the big killer is that many of use are making December purchase for tax deductions and forced to the wall our money may go elsewhere for the time being. Then with budgets spent it's going to impact Apple's sales short term. Obviously they're doing what they're doing for a reason but it does s*ck for us.

It's compounded by the fact that Apple hasn't pined a date beyond "December" at this point and don't even have the 8 and 12 core models on their site. Either the date is still in flux or Apple is making a strategic mistake (even if minor for them it's not for us).



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Lance Bachelder
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:06:13 pm

I think I liked Apple Computer Inc. better that "Fruit-logoed Portable Devices Inc."

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Steve Connor
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:18:21 pm

We've waited this long, another week or two isn't a real problem


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:23:17 pm

At least Premiere Pro cC has been updated. Once again in 2 months.

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x Prod. bundle CS6, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, Ethernet File Server w. X-Raid.... and FCPX on trial


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:37:16 pm

That's my problem - been having nothing but CC woes since the last update...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Mark Dobson
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:43:46 pm

I'm pretty relaxed about it all.

I can't afford a new mac right now and I'm not about to download any updates until the project we are working on is through in early 2014.

having said that . . .


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Walter Soyka
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:06:58 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "That's my problem - been having nothing but CC woes since the last update..."

I think Morten was talking about Premiere Pro CC 7.2, just updated today.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Lance Bachelder
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:26:10 pm

Ahh... didn't even see that - let's hope it fixes my current issues - updating now.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1


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Walter Soyka
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:34:23 pm

[Lance Bachelder] "Ahh... didn't even see that - let's hope it fixes my current issues - updating now."

What's new is listed here:
http://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/using/whats-new-7-2.html

And bug fixes are listed here:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/949132#949141

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:44:53 pm

[Steve Connor] "We've waited this long, another week or two isn't a real problem
"


Its a US thing related to tax-deductable items for small companies and independent contractors. That's why the consternation. People have discretionary funds that they've set aside in anticipation of a macPro, based on this year's budget. It doesn't count to have one ordered on 12/31; it must be paid for by 12/31. So people are anguishing over whether they will have to divert these funds to other items. That's the nervous desk-tapping that you are hearing.

I'm not feeling that because I'm going to hold off on the very first iteration anyway. I'd like the early bugs out before I switch.


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Mitch Ives
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 9:45:51 pm

[Chris Harlan] "It doesn't count to have one ordered on 12/31; it must be paid for by 12/31."

Exactly!

Surely Apple knows this, but I'm guessing there's been some snag that's holding it up?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." - Winston Churchill


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:10:25 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's compounded by the fact that Apple hasn't pined a date beyond "December" at this point and don't even have the 8 and 12 core models on their site."

The 8 and 12 core models are going to be selectable from the 4/6 core, at least that's my guess.

Look here from apple.com:




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Tom Sefton
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 10:28:28 pm

What's in the box:
Power Cord
Mac Pro
Dust!
Air!
Packing Material!!!
Silica Gel!!!
....

If you look at the 4 core model vs the iMac, you can spec the imac with an i7, 32Gb RAM, 256Gb SSD, a free keyboard and mouse, an 8GB GPU and a bundled monitor and that comes to £2708. The 4 core model is £2499 for 4Gb GPU and 12gb RAM.

Unless the Mac Pro 4 or 6 core absolutely slaughters that iMac in performance, how much are they going to be stepping on their own toes with pricing in the next 2 months after release?

And yes, yes, I know the Mac Pro has more thunderbolt ports and hdmi 1.4....


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 10:33:15 pm

And dual GPUs….

Can't forget those.


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Tom Sefton
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 10:45:12 pm

Yes sorry - I added up wrong. 1 x 4 is most definitely 4. So the iMac has the same GPU memory as the base spec Mac Pro but on one GPU, not two. This will obviously make a difference in Resolve, but will it make a fundamental difference to the way that AE, CC or FCPX works?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 10:49:46 pm

[Tom Sefton] "This will obviously make a difference in Resolve, but will it make a fundamental difference to the way that AE, CC or FCPX works?"

I should hope so. It's not only the GPUs but the higher powered Xeons which should be faster than i7s.

If not, we will all buy iMacs. Win win for Apple?

Jeremy


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Tom Sefton
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 10:56:48 pm

Yeah true. I won't be moving from apple hardware for the time being; it's reliable, well built and the OS is great.

You would indeed imagine that in a race, xeons would beat i7, I just wonder at what point the gap isn't big enough for a lot of people to not bother and purchase an imac instead. Obviously apple want people to spend as much as possible with them, so the incentive to purchase additional keyboard, mouse and monitors needs to be high - this would be a clear performance difference between the two models.


I eagerly await some sort of comparison test between the mac pro and the imac.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 11:04:04 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I eagerly await some sort of comparison test between the mac pro and the imac."

Many people will be refreshing barefeats.com, I'm sure.


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Marcus Moore
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 11:45:31 pm

There's LOADS of people for whom an iMac is a more than adequate editorial machine. I've felt myself hitting the way on this 2011 iMac (that I borrowed from my wife to fill the MacPro gap) more and more recently- so I'm very much looking forward to being back on team MacPro.



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John Davidson
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 3:02:21 am

Craig! Jeremy and I worked up a solution. Go and by $30,000 worth of IMACs, and then return them on January 5 when you're Mac Pros gets here.

Or 30k in gift cards. Yeah.

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


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Roland Blaser
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 7:41:44 pm

Lance, I'm with you.

Apple could have sold me at least two Mac Pros in between. My Mac Pro 8 core 2,1 is still nice for FCP 7 but not compatible with FCPX anymore (the last one with 32 bit EFI). Of course I have FCPX running on my MacBook Pro 13" Retina but this is rather for fun compared to my 30" Cinema Display attached to the old horse below my desk.

Simply the small upgrade steps of the Mac Pro line were never attractive enough to replace the 2,1 until now. However now I'm really looking forward to get a new Mac Pro. Compared to the 2,1 most probably it will be like replacing an old propeller airplane with a supersonic plane.

And even the Thunderbolt 2 RAIDs are already available in different flavors (Pegasus2 Series) – great! Questions left unanswered for time being: prices of the 8 and 12 core models, the higher performing GPUs, RAM/Flash memory. And: is there any nice high-res monitor that could replace my 30" Cinema Display?

Let's hope we will know the answers (or most of them) next week...

Regards from Switzerland,

Roland

********
Science journalist, cameraman, video editor. 30 years of science communication for Swiss National TV. Awarded Prix Media by Swiss Academy of Science. Nominee Descartes Prize for Science Communication European Union.
> Mac Pro 8 core, MacBook Pro. AJA ioHD. FCP 7.


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Santiago Martí
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:11:32 pm

Today's PPro updates includes OpenCL acceleration, that's what Apple was waiting!
;)

Santiago Martí
http://www.robotrojo.com.ar
Red One M-X, Red Epic X waiting for Dragon update, Red Pro Primes, Adobe CC, Assimilate Scratch


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Keith Koby
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 4:41:39 pm

[Santiago Martí] "Today's PPro updates includes OpenCL acceleration, that's what Apple was waiting!"

That is actually really great news. Joking aside about the waiting... It will be interesting to see the comparative results between cuda acceleration on a good nvidia card versus OpenCL acceleration on the dual D700, D500 and D300 models on PP and AE.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND


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Andre van Berlo
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 8:46:39 pm

From what I've understood from Marcus Moore is that a maxed out Mac Pro will be $9500,-

So 12 cores, 64GB ram, D700's, and 1TB SSD
8 core, 64GB ram, D700's, ad 500G SSD would be $7500 (don't remember the exact number)


I've done some estimates based on speculations from Marcus Moore and things I've found in the apple store. It's just guessing but still fun :-)


Using the base model of $2999(4 core, D300, 16GB, 256GB SSD) you can configure your own model and add the prices below.

Flash Storage upgrade prices
(On the imac you pay $250 extra to go from 256GB to 512GB and $500 more to go to 1 TB)
250GB ssd + $0
500GB ssd + $250
1tb ssd. +$750

RAM upgrade prices
(On the iMac you go from 0 to +200 to +600 so i'm using the same "apple-scaling" here. Also, Marcus had his apple representative tell him to upgrade to 64GB would be $1200)
16GB +$0
32GB +$400
64GB +$1200

GPU upgrade prices
D300 +$0
D500 +$750
D700 +$2000

CPU upgrade prices(there were estimates on some site, can't remember which)
4 core +$0. ($294 on intel.com)
6 core. +$250. (583 on intel.com)
8 core +$1250 (1723 on intel.com)
12 core. +$2500. (2950 on intel.com)


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Rick Lang
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 11:19:36 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "CPU upgrade prices(there were estimates on some site, can't remember which)
4 core +$0. ($294 on intel.com)
6 core. +$250. (583 on intel.com)
8 core +$1250 (1723 on intel.com)
12 core. +$2500. (2950 on intel.com)"


Linear upgrades for the other components but the CPU options, using Intel’s prices, do leave me wondering why the jump from $583 for the 6-core to $1,723 for the 8-core. A while ago I looked at each configuration on the Intel site, but I don’t quite grasp why such a large increase in cost? Anyone have any insight into the merits of the 8-core versus the 6-core? Do you feel it will be justified in the overall machine performance gain?

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Marcus Moore
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 12, 2013 at 11:51:15 pm

This is the question a lot of people want answered, and it will be really interesting to see the results across the spectrum of configurations.

But one spec isn't going to give you the best experience. Different parts of X have different hardware masters- GPU for Rendering, CPU for Exporting/Transcoding (sometimes), RAM for real-time performance.

If you can't max the machine out, everyone will have to make choices about what's important to them.

I'm really curious to see if there's any substantive benefit between the 8-core and 12-core machines in FCPX tasks.



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Rick Lang
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 12:06:55 am

[Marcus Moore] "This is the question a lot of people want answered, and it will be really interesting to see the results across the spectrum of configurations."

Very true, but looking at just the processor, it seems hard to believe that the performance of the 8-core CPU is worth three times as much as the 6-core processor. I know it’s complicated to answer when all the other variables are brought into play, but from Intel’s perspective, they think there is something in that processor that justifies the much higher price. Don’t know what it is when you examine Intel’s specs.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Andre van Berlo
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 4:07:12 pm

I can think of a couple of reasons why it is more expensive.

I can imagine it it much harder putting 8 or 12 cores in such a small space which leads to higher manufacturing costs. Another reason could be that there much fewer people needing 8 or more cores making it a real pro cpu, and anything pro is usually much more expensive cause the building costs arent carried by a large users base.

Sorry for my crappy english :-)


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 4:41:05 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "I can imagine it it much harder putting 8 or 12 cores in such a small space which leads to higher manufacturing costs."

I think it's yield as well.

If they could make them cheaper, they'd just sell more of them, or offer more power for a lower price.

When making chips, yield is a huge metric, and yield is probably lower in the bigger, faster, more complicated chips.

Look here under "Device Test": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabrication

When only 30% (or less?) of the chips are successful, that cost is passed on to the consumer.


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Rick Lang
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 6:46:09 pm

[Andre van Berlo] "I can imagine it it much harder putting 8 or 12 cores in such a small space which leads to higher manufacturing costs."

I think the 12-core may be a somewhat differently architected chip as I recall, but I think the 4-core, 6-core, and 8-core chips may actually be the same chip. The 8-core just have zero problems and so all are enabled, the 6-core are failing tests in one or two cores and so those cores are disabled, the 4-core fails in three or four cores and so those are disabled. May not be right about it but your response and the others who answered my question are on the right track. The cost difference between the different options is not entirely influenced by hardware design as much as by the limited market for the highest core options and the frequency of core failures considering the transistor technology is very new and the densities are continuing to amaze. Thanks!

So I have a better understanding but will wait a month or two for benchmarks and feedback from the community to see if there’s a $1,000 of benefit to me going from 6-core to 8-core. If Peter Chamberlain from BMD draws the line in the sand for DaVinci Resolve 4K support at 8-core, well then that decision is easy.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Andre van Berlo
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 14, 2013 at 11:11:33 am

From what I've read it is all about which software you use and if it can use all those cores. I don't need 6 cores for the kind of editing that I do but I do need 6-8 cores for the kind of live streaming that I'm going to do in 2014.

I think most people here know exactly what they're needs are because most have been doing their work already for a long time. I'm just a guitar teacher who got into editing because these days you've got to be active online as well(lot of fun though!!). In the past I've bought 2 iMacs, and each time I bought one it turned out to be under spec'd. Why? Because with the first one, 6 months later I started using it in my home studio for audio recording, then I bought a new iMac a couple of frustrating years later and guess what? 6 months later I started editing video on a daily basis and soon that iMac was underspecced as well...

I'm quite keen on getting it right this time, especially considering the prices :-)


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Viktor Kamenický
Re: Truly depressing...
on Dec 13, 2013 at 1:59:48 am

I think, that the new version isn't ready yet... so that is the reason.

(but it wasn't ready in '11 and it didn't stopped Apple to release it...)

purquoise


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